notinkansas

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Heard on the news this evening

Starting pay for new graduate nurse at the local teaching hospital:
$48,000 per year.

Stipend at same teaching hospital for newly graduated MD as PGY !
$47,250

Nurse will earn this salary working 40 hrs per week, will get time and a half for hours over 80. Holiday pay for working holidays. RN can be obtained at local community college, or a bachelors at state school for about $6000/year tuition (or less)

Resident will earn salary for working 80 hours a week. No consideration for holidays. Must also spend a good deal of time outside of work hours studying. Has spent 8 years in school.

**Sigh**
 

AbbyNormal

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And your point is?

If you think nursing is a better deal then why don't you become a nurse?

These kind of threads always frustrate me.
 

Blue Dog

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Irrelevant.

The nurse will probably still be earning close to the same amount three years from now. The doctor, on the other hand, can add at least $100,000 to that figure, regardless of specialty.

Kwitcherbitchin'.
 

tncekm

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I'd say "semi irrelevant", but that's an oxymoron. Doctors make more money partially because they work more hours. Sure, they make more money on an hourly basis, but not as much as you'd think considering the difference in their training and patient-load--at least for people in IM and FP.
 

Blue Dog

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Doctors make more money partially because they work more hours. Sure, they make more money on an hourly basis, but not as much as you'd think considering the difference in their training and patient-load--at least for people in IM and FP.
Lots of folks work more hours than doctors for far less money.

Don't lose your perspective.
 

tncekm

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Lots of folks work more hours than doctors for far less money.

Don't lose your perspective.
And many people also work less hours and make more? So how does that make any of what I said irrelevant? I didn't say that FP or IM makes less than your average RN. I just said they don't make as much as you'd think. Did you ever stop and do the math? If docs made overtime, like most people, then FP and IM would average somewhere around $45/hr. You can be a hardly-educated "average" idiot working for the state of California and make almost that much hourly ($38/hr), and far more than that when you consider their benefits ($55/hr). They average $120,000/yr after benefits--that's AVERAGE--for a normal work week.

Don't kid yourself, most physicians--primarily FP and IM-- are not given unfairly good treatment. We make good money, but the only thing we have many other people don't is long hours and job security.

Don't try to convince me that I should feel guilty I might make $180/yr after 15 years of intense higher education + residency that probably 90% of people aren't even capable of completing when I work a 55-60hr/wk.

I'll be grateful, and feel blessed to have a good paying job that is exceptionally rewarding, but I'm sure as hell not going to feel like a guilty fool.

P.S. The only guy I've ever see work 60+hrs/wk and have no money is my dad. But, he's an addict and a moron. People who work, earn.
 

gutonc

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And many people also work less hours and make more? So how does that make any of what I said irrelevant? I didn't say that FP or IM makes less than your average RN. I just said they don't make as much as you'd think. Did you ever stop and do the math? If docs made overtime, like most people, then FP and IM would average somewhere around $45/hr. You can be a hardly-educated "average" idiot working for the state of California and make almost that much hourly ($38/hr), and far more than that when you consider their benefits ($55/hr). They average $120,000/yr after benefits--that's AVERAGE--for a normal work week.

Don't kid yourself, most physicians--primarily FP and IM-- are not given unfairly good treatment. We make good money, but the only thing we have many other people don't is long hours and job security.
You're aware that you (MS1) are arguing this point with an FM attending (Blue Dog), right?
 

Madinat

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You're aware that you (MS1) are arguing this point with an FM attending (Blue Dog), right?
dude!! why'd you say anything? i JUST broke out my jiffypop!!:corny:
 

tncekm

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You're aware that you (MS1) are arguing this point with an FM attending (Blue Dog), right?
I know he's an attending. That's fine by me. If I'm mistaken in what I said, please enlighten me.
 

Blue Dog

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Don't try to convince me that I should feel guilty I might make $180/yr after 15 years of intense higher education + residency
All the more reason to wonder why you're complaining about nurses earning forty-something per year. You started this thread, after all.
 

tncekm

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All the more reason to wonder why you're complaining about nurses earning forty-something per year. You started this thread, after all.
I didn't start the thread, actually. I just commented. Plus, nurses sure as heck don't make $40k/yr where I come from. Maybe LVN's. I think they deserve a good wage, I'm not complaining.

If hospitals do spend as much money training residents as they say they do, then I don't even feel too bad about resident salary. I'll take it.
 

Blue Dog

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I didn't start the thread, actually.
My bad. You're just guilty by association. ;)


If hospitals do spend as much money training residents as they say they do, then I don't even feel too bad about resident salary. I'll take it.
Y'all need to quit thinking of a residency stipend as a "salary." As a resident, you're being paid to receive training. That doesn't happen in nurse-land.
 

tncekm

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My bad. You're just guilty by association. ;)




Y'all need to quit thinking of a residency stipend as a "salary." As a resident, you're being paid to receive training. That doesn't happen in nurse-land.
No, you're right. But, nurses also don't train for 3-5 years on average + 4 yrs of med school--that's a long time not to make any money at all. Nor do they have $1000/month in student loans. lol
 

Blue Dog

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No, you're right. But, nurses also don't train for 3-5 years on average + 4 yrs of med school--that's a long time not to make any money at all. Nor do they have $1000/month in student loans. lol
So what? You're still making a f*cking fortune compared to them!

Do have any idea how whiny you sound...? Gawd help us all. :rolleyes:
 

tncekm

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So what? You're still making a f*cking fortune compared to them!

Do have any idea how whiny you sound...? Gawd help us all. :rolleyes:
I didn't whine about what I'll make. I whined about the fact that people essentially encourage others to feel guilty for becoming a physician and earning a nice paycheck--i.e. saying that doctors earn "too much".
 

Blue Dog

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I didn't whine about what I'll make. I whined about the fact that people essentially encourage others to feel guilty for becoming a physician and earning a nice paycheck--i.e. saying that doctors earn "too much".
Nobody said that in this thread.
 

tncekm

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Nobody said that in this thread.
True. I extrapolated your sympathetic statement about "keeping perspective", and perhaps took it too far.
 

filter07

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Perspective is a good thing. But data can be distorted to fit any thesis. The fact is that nurses have far less training, far fewer responsibilities, and work far fewer hours than residents. The argument has been made that nurses are not in training, whereas residents are. That is not true. The nurse that is fresh from nursing school learns as much on the job as the intern does. Similarly, physician assistants are constantly learning on the job, yet they earn about 1.5x more than an intern, and even more than a PGY7 fellow in cardiothoracic surgery, who has already completed general surgery.

I agree that I would not change my place with nurses because I don't want to be a nurse. But it is pretty clear to me that resident pay is not justified. Some consideration should be made for future earnings, but resident salary compared to attending salary is severely depressed. Residents should not be earning 1/3 to 1/10th the salary of an attending, especially when it is the resident stabilizing every trauma patient that comes in at night, while the attending gets a courtesy phone call at the end of his shift.
 

wagy27

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As a resident, I am grateful for the salary I get paid while training. However, if you are 2 compare a resident to a mid-level for example you will notice a few things:

1. Residents have spent more years getting educated
2. Residents work more hours on average per week
3. Residents are given more responsibility for patient care and management than a PA/NP (at my institution)

While residents are "in training", huge parts of our job go unsupervised as our orders are down with an attending reviewing. Further, most of our education comes during non-patient care hours; i.e in the Am before clinic starts, during lunch, and after hours when PA/NP aren't in yet (those that work the day shift).

I do think the arguement that we will make more in a few years isn't the most valid. Just because we will make more does that mean we shouldn't be compensated for the skill level of work that we provide while residents? do you really think that the level of knowledge/skill possessed by most residents is deserving of approximately 50,000 a year when nurses, pa, np are making significantly more. Sure, they aren't in "training" but the majority of time they don't have post-graduate months let alone PGY.
 

AbbyNormal

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Lets not forget how unfair it is that CEOs make much more income with much less education.

One example: Charles O'Brien makes $580,066 as CEO of the West Penn Allegheny Health System.

Or is it just nurses that we hate?
 

filter07

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CEOs and athletes are in completely different fields with different responsibilities. Nurses, PAs, and NPs are in healthcare, just like residents, often with overlapping duties.
 

dutchman

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Dude, there is conversation out there to have residents pay tuition. You better be happy for the 40K. Should residents get payed more? Hell ya! but a nurses average day is not a walk in the park either. I wouldn't do nursing for double their pay. Bottom line is that everyone deserves more.
 
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after i get back from my 5th coffee break of the day i am writing up every one of you "health providers" in this thread for your "unprofessional conduct" that is compromising my "team's" ability to deliver effective "patient care". i wear a long white coat just like you do and expect to be treated and paid accordingly.
 

tncekm

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Lets not forget how unfair it is that CEOs make much more income with much less education.

One example: Charles O'Brien makes $580,066 as CEO of the West Penn Allegheny Health System.

Or is it just nurses that we hate?
No, clearly there is an issue with some administrators. But, at the same time, being the CEO of an entire health system just might require a hell of a lot of work and know-how. :D
 

AbbyNormal

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No, clearly there is an issue with some administrators. But, at the same time, being the CEO of an entire health system just might require a hell of a lot of work and know-how. :D
Absolutely. I doubt they kick back with their feet on their desk drinking coffee all day. A CEO has lots of responsibility and should be paid accordingly.

But my point is nurses and doctors both make decisions that can keep a person alive. That kind of responsibility should likewise be compensated, yes? Should residents make more than they currently do? Yes I think so. Should they make more because of their responsibility or because of how their pay compares to a nurse's income? That is my issue.

I have no problem with you saying residents are underpaid. I have a problem when you say nurse versus resident blah, blah, blah.

Coming to this community has been surprising because working in a teaching hospital I have seldom had problems with residents. We are much more a team. I am grateful we don't have that kind of conflict there.
 

tncekm

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Absolutely. I doubt they kick back with their feet on their desk drinking coffee all day. A CEO has lots of responsibility and should be paid accordingly.

But my point is nurses and doctors both make decisions that can keep a person alive. That kind of responsibility should likewise be compensated, yes? Should residents make more than they currently do? Yes I think so. Should they make more because of their responsibility or because of how their pay compares to a nurse's income? That is my issue.

I have no problem with you saying residents are underpaid. I have a problem when you say nurse versus resident blah, blah, blah.

Coming to this community has been surprising because working in a teaching hospital I have seldom had problems with residents. We are much more a team. I am grateful we don't have that kind of conflict there.
When it comes to residency, I'm honestly not that concerned about the pay. Sure, I'd like to see maybe a little higher pay toward PGY3+ years, but whatever. The hospitals say it costs a ton to train us, so be it... I can live during that time. I'm more concerned with resident work hours and conditions.

The reason I even posted in this thread was because Blue Dog was explaining that people shouldn't bitch about residents getting paid poorly because doctors will make more than the nurse in a fear years. So, I brought up that part of the reason that physicians make more than a nurse is because they work more hours, not that nurses are treated unfairly when compared to physicians. When you break it down and look at it from the perspective of the average working joe, who gets time and a half after 40hrs, FP and IM really don't make THAT much. It's like $45/hr. There are TONS of jobs where you can earn $45/hr. Tons of nurses make $35/hr+, so nobody needs to feel sorry for them because physicians make more. That measely 20% difference between an RN and an MD is earned by what is probably a 10 fold difference in education, and 3-4 fold difference in years being educated / trained.
 

Eta Carinae

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But my point is nurses and doctors both make decisions that can keep a person alive.

That kind of responsibility should likewise be compensated, yes? Should residents make more than they currently do? Yes I think so. Should they make more because of their responsibility or because of how their pay compares to a nurse's income? That is my issue.

I have no problem with you saying residents are underpaid. I have a problem when you say nurse versus resident blah, blah, blah.

Coming to this community has been surprising because working in a teaching hospital I have seldom had problems with residents. We are much more a team. I am grateful we don't have that kind of conflict there.
Nurses don't make decisions.

Nurses report facts, vitals etc and follow orders from the decision-makers ie MDs/DOs.
 

AbbyNormal

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I guess I just don't like to hear people whining after they made the decision to pursue their occupation because in this country we have free will to choose our future. For me it is more than about money. My stepdad died of a heart attack at age 56 when I was 19 y/o. My sisters were 8 and 9 y/o. I didn't want other children to lose their dads so that was a big motivator for me to become a paramedic and later a critical care nurse. Sure I would like to be paid more. Who wouldn't?

But feeling entitled really bugs me. My sister is now an RN with a little less than two years experience she is making $18/hour. She is angry that she makes that much because she made more than that when she was a desk jockey working for AT&T. Yeah seriously. She believes that because AT&T paid a good salary the hospital should pay her more. I just shake my head and walk away. The only RNs that make up to $35/hour here are per diem with no benefits. But this is WV so jobs always suck here. I am contemplating CRNA school. The money would be good but I know I would have to bust my butt for 36 months just to be a novice. I have suggested that alternative to my sister since she wants money, money, money but she also is lazy, lazy, lazy. Not a good combination. I seem to be rambling on now. Oh well. Scroll down and have a good evening. :)
 

AbbyNormal

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Nurses don't make decisions.

Nurses report facts, vitals etc and follow orders from the decision-makers ie MDs/DOs.
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Whoa?!!?!?

What planet are you from?

Yes nurses report facts. Yes nurses follow orders from MDs/DOs.

Nurses also REFUSE to follow orders when they do not meet standard of care and could compromise the well being of the patient. I have refused orders perhaps a dozen or so times. Every time I told my manager and every time my manager backed me up. One time I was taking care of a post op heart circling the drain and called the CV surgeon for help. He told me to put the atrial wires from the patient's heart to the ventricular pacing site on the pacer and put the patient's ventricular wires to the atrial part of pacer. I asked, WHAT? I would do this WHY? He hung up on me. I called his senior partner and when he came to the bedside he just shook his head when I told him that story. So hmmmm when you are in the hospital do you want a nurse that understands physiology and *GASP* makes decisions or do you want a nurse who is a "doctor helper" who has no idea what switching the ports on a pacemaker could do to a heart? Hmmmm?

No I don't have as much education as a doctor but I am not stupid. Give me your sickest patient with a Swan-Ganz and some vasoactive drips and a good selection of fluids and blood products and watch me make decisions. Yes I follow protocols but I also know when the protocol is no longer working and when to inform the physician. There is probably a reason that the surgeons will often ask to put me on the phone when they are talking to a "new" nurse (as in less than two years critical care experience). The doctors trust me to assess the situation and when I say, you need to get here, they get here.

Wow. Nurses don't make decisions. :laugh:
 

Eta Carinae

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Don't be offended.

I said NOTHING about nurses being stupid. I simply stated accurately that you don't make decisions, as this is not your role.

OTOH, if you feel that being called a nurse implies you're stupid, well, that's unfortunate because it's not true.

It is a FACT- Nurses don't make decisions.

However, this is not to say that you can't. You are welcome to assume full responsibility for the patient if this is what you desire.

(You might be required to purchase malpractice insurance by your hospital, though)

Just sayin'
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:cool:
 
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Eta Carinae

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I respect the role that nurses play. And nurses who are good at what they do are simply...priceless and indispensable.

However, the nurse's role is not as the primary decision maker.

And a lot of conflict is avoided when every participant in the healthcare field acts within the boundaries of his/her job specifications.
 

AbbyNormal

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I respect the role that nurses play. And nurses who are good at what they do are simply...priceless and indispensable.

However, the nurse's role is not as the primary decision maker.

And a lot of conflict is avoided when every participant in the healthcare field acts within the boundaries of his/her job specifications.
Okay I'll hold off on the offended for the moment because we may just have a problem with semantics.

I absolutely agree that a nurse is not the primary decision maker. On a slow day I may not make any decisions of substantial value but other days I do.

Let me give you this scenario. I have arrived for day shift and I have responsibility for two stable post op hearts. Two surgeons arrive at the same time and both hearts are stable and I cannot be in two places at once so I talk to one doc and the other doc does his thing and leaves me orders. The patient's weight is 3kg up from preop. One of the orders is 40 mg IV lasix now and repeat the dose in 6 hours. The patient's potassium is 2.8 and I have standing orders for IV potassium replacement. Patient is having occasional multiform PVCs.

Should I

A. give the lasix now and try to play catch up with the potassium

B. give enough potassium to get the patient's serum potassium within normal range and then give lasix

????????

This is not a huge decision. But it is an example of a simple decision. Simple in that it does not require a lot of knowledge of physiology and medications but possibly huge to this particular patient if I make the choice to start diuresis before I get the potassium stable and the ventricular ectopics worsen because the potassium drops and drops.

Do I need to notify the physician of my decision? In this instance in my hospital with most physicians, no. They would say, why are you telling me this, you already know what to do. But I would document in my nursing notes the rationale for administering potassium and rechecking levels before giving lasix.

Do you see what I am saying? I don't want to be a physician and I don't want the job of a physician but I am darned proud to be an expert critical care nurse. Good nurse plus good physician equals good team.

I absolutely stay within my boundaries of nursing practice. Once I had a patient that "should" have been doing better post op but cardiac output was dropping and BP sagging. I don't remember all the specifics now but the surgeon was busy so I grabbed the cardiologist and said, I see xyz and that is consistent with posterior cardiac tamponade, what do you think? We did some stuff, I can't recall now if it was a cxr or ultrasound but it showed nothing. But something wasn't right. Surgeon became available. We are all standing at bedside and patient just isn't reacting as he should. So back to the OR for a look see. Guess what they found? A posterior tamponade. Now please understand that I did NOT diagnose the patient with tamponade rather I said "I see this, this, this which is consistent with tamponade". I was within my boundaries of practice and I did the right thing to notify the physicians that something isn't right here and ultimately the diagnosis was made on return to OR.

And again I am rambling on way past the point I should stop. Too much caffeine??

Friends?:)
 

WholeLottaGame7

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This is kind of a weird topic to be fighting about. There are a ton of jobs which make a comfortable 5 figures from the get-go. For instance, the truck-driving example. You knew (or should have known, or should have been able to deal with after learning), that you were paying a pretty significant opportunity cost in lost income (not to mention accumulated debt) throughout your 20s, and that more than likely you were not going to be pulling down upper 6 figures after that. I think the only reason the nurse issue is a big deal is because we work with them on a daily basis. If you went into medicine expecting to be living the high life early on, you were sadly mistaken.
 

CityLights

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Hmm I know I shouldn't be posting here, but I just wanted to say to Abby that I greatly admire your taking the time to clearly and elegantly counter a poorly-worded blanket statement without starting anything resembling a flame-war. :thumbup::thumbup:
 

AbbyNormal

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Hmm I know I shouldn't be posting here, but I just wanted to say to Abby that I greatly admire your taking the time to clearly and elegantly counter a poorly-worded blanket statement. :thumbup::thumbup:
First, thank you, citylights, and second, this is just my opinion and I am new here and don't know all the unwritten rules but I think it is okay to post in any forum. Kind of in keeping with the team spirit. That's how I see it.

You know I will have to agree that there are some nurses that probably shouldn't be making decisions. I have worked with them. Perhaps they are new and require supervision or perhaps they just aren't bright. Or perhaps they are good nurses at some things but not others. I am an excellent nurse if you have an open heart surgery patient or thoracic trauma. But please don't float me to oncology again. I had to look up 90% of the drugs because oncology is not where I have experience.

But the same is true that some doctors shouldn't be making decisions. I personally have known two. One was a resident who got tossed out of surgery, then internal medicine, then radiology residencies. He now operates a private business in town and no longer practices as a physician. He was arrogant and none of the nurses or attending MDs liked him. The other physician was very amiable but he had poor judgment. I refused more orders from him than I did other physicians combined. His name was on quite a few incident reports. Bless his heart he had good intent but he did not practice good medicine. He now assists in surgery but cannot write orders or do surgery without supervision.

Health care gets confusing sometimes because there is an overlap between what nurses, doctors, PAs can do. Even more confusing when nurses are mid-level such as nurse practitioners or CRNAs. Not trying to dig this thread into the hole any deeper just saying it gets confusing when lines blur.
 

Knicks

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......but resident salary compared to attending salary is severely depressed. Residents should not be earning 1/3 to 1/10th the salary of an attending, especially when it is the resident stabilizing every trauma patient that comes in at night, while the attending gets a courtesy phone call at the end of his shift.
Deep.
 

zenman

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Y'all need to quit thinking of a residency stipend as a "salary." As a resident, you're being paid to receive training. That doesn't happen in nurse-land.
Not 100% true. I was paid (82-83) $800 bucks a month, tuition, books to get my nursing masters in exchange for working with minorities. I finished school and then proved that the local nursing school in my own neighborhood had a certain level of minorities in it and went to work for them...collecting a paycheck of course. But then I'm fricken brilliant...and have also made many decisions, some of which physicians have thanked me for. :thumbup:
 

med2UCC

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Dude, there is conversation out there to have residents pay tuition. You better be happy for the 40K. Should residents get payed more? Hell ya! but a nurses average day is not a walk in the park either. I wouldn't do nursing for double their pay. Bottom line is that everyone deserves more.
In Canada we do pay tuition. Mind you, at my shop the hospital pays most of the tuition, we pay a minimal fee ($300.00 this year) and we get to claim the tax benefits of being students provincially including writing off the tuition (but not federally-it makes the tax situation somewhat confusing). It works out. We also have a professional association that negotiates all our contracts and handles any complaints about call, harassment on the job etc (any that can't or won't be handled at program level, that is).
Cheers,
M
 

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lets not forget how unfair it is that ceos make much more income with much less education.

one example: Charles o'brien makes $580,066 as ceo of the west penn allegheny health system.

Or is it just nurses that we hate?
+1
 

tncekm

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Please don't compare the job of a CEO to an RN. Hardly comparable. Both "education" and "type of work" must be considered.

Here is an example. If an Alaskan crab fisherman, like the crazy bastards on TV, make tons of cash without so much as a high school diploma, who the hell cares?! They're out of their minds, crazy, and do dangerous work.

My point, a doctors salary is much more fair than it is unfair when comared to that of an RN. Not only do physicians work more hours under the same "hospital conditions" (again, we're not in 30ft, freezing surf here), but they've also got a much longer (3-4x), and much more intense education (probably another 4-5x) than many nurses couldn't even complete if they were paid to do it! All that for a $10-20/hr or so difference in pay between an RN and a FP.

I just can't stand it when people start whining about how physicians should just take whatever money they're given because there is some sweatshop worker somewhere in the world that makes less while working more. Let's be realistic here folks.
 

fab4fan

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Please don't compare the job of a CEO to an RN. Hardly comparable. Both "education" and "type of work" must be considered.

Here is an example. If an Alaskan crab fisherman, like the crazy bastards on TV, make tons of cash without so much as a high school diploma, who the hell cares?! They're out of their minds, crazy, and do dangerous work.

My point, a doctors salary is much more fair than it is unfair when comared to that of an RN. Not only do physicians work more hours under the same "hospital conditions" (again, we're not in 30ft, freezing surf here), but they've also got a much longer (3-4x), and much more intense education (probably another 4-5x) than many nurses couldn't even complete if they were paid to do it! All that for a $10-20/hr or so difference in pay between an RN and a FP.

I just can't stand it when people start whining about how physicians should just take whatever money they're given because there is some sweatshop worker somewhere in the world that makes less while working more. Let's be realistic here folks.
Why are you so miserable? You're only an MS-1. How are you going to survive the rest of med school and residency at the rate you're going?

If you got the message that this was about doctors just making a pittance and being told to "suck it up," then you need to brush up on your reading skills.

Here, if it makes you feel better, I bow down to your awesomeness as a doctor to be:

:bow:
 

Paseo Del Norte

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My wife's daughter is married to a dude who makes six didgits managing people who drill oil wells. He has a HS diploma, should I loose the plot over that? I make less than $20.00 an hour to fly. Should I loose the plot because my new grad counterparts are raking in mad money while not having to worry about hitting a hidden tower or powerlines during a 2am scene call? I think not, it's my dumb ass who decided to do this job.

You had to have known what you were getting into, I do not think resident pay is some hidden concept? In a few years, you can rake in the money and the nurses will still be doing the same old thing and still taking orders from you. With that, your situation sounds like a resident problem, it's not like complaining about nurses is going to get you more money.
 

tncekm

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Why are you so miserable? You're only an MS-1. How are you going to survive the rest of med school and residency at the rate you're going?
I'm not miserable, I'm just honest and you see misery in honesty. Not my problem.

If you got the message that this was about doctors just making a pittance and being told to "suck it up," then you need to brush up on your reading skills.
I know that's not what this thread was about. The thread was a complaint against residents making as little as RN's. I personally said I don't have a problem with residents taking a hit on their pay during training. I have to take the hospitals at their word that we cost money to train. I also said that nurses deserve a fair pay. And, what they currently are paid (aside from CRNA's) is pretty darn fair. However, clearly people all over SDN are ridiculously arguing that physicians do need to just "suck it up", which is ridiculous.

Here, if it makes you feel better, I bow down to your awesomeness as a doctor to be:

:bow:
Not what I was looking for. It's obvious you were being sarcastic, but I don't ever want that type of treatment.

BTW, what specifically did I say that bothered you so much? I clearly wasn't making the case that doctors should be treated better than everyone else. That should have been obvious with my "crab fisherman" example.