AbbyNormal

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Please don't compare the job of a CEO to an RN. Hardly comparable. Both "education" and "type of work" must be considered.

Here is an example. If an Alaskan crab fisherman, like the crazy bastards on TV, make tons of cash without so much as a high school diploma, who the hell cares?! They're out of their minds, crazy, and do dangerous work.

My point, a doctors salary is much more fair than it is unfair when comared to that of an RN. Not only do physicians work more hours under the same "hospital conditions" (again, we're not in 30ft, freezing surf here), but they've also got a much longer (3-4x), and much more intense education (probably another 4-5x) than many nurses couldn't even complete if they were paid to do it! All that for a $10-20/hr or so difference in pay between an RN and a FP.

I just can't stand it when people start whining about how physicians should just take whatever money they're given because there is some sweatshop worker somewhere in the world that makes less while working more. Let's be realistic here folks.
Dude you are annoying. You don't seem to be a team player. You need to get over yourself.

There is some cross over between what nurses and physicians do but nurses are not "little doctors" or wannabe doctors. Don't sit there and tell me I could not be a doctor if I wanted to. I didn't and I don't want to be a doctor. Not interested. But my RN board scores in 1986 were in the top 1% of the USA so I bet if I really wanted to be a physician I have the smarts. What I don't have is the motivation. I like being a nurse. I like knowing I am making a difference in the world. I like taking the sickest patient in the unit that is circling the drain and creating an environment for them to survive. No I am not freaking supergenius and I am not going to find the cure to cancer but I earn every little penny of my paycheck because I am a damn good nurse and I do not have to apologize to you because you think I am overpaid.

I respect the physicians I work with and they respect me. How's it working out for you?
 

tncekm

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Dude you are annoying. You don't seem to be a team player. You need to get over yourself.

There is some cross over between what nurses and physicians do but nurses are not "little doctors" or wannabe doctors. Don't sit there and tell me I could not be a doctor if I wanted to. I didn't and I don't want to be a doctor. Not interested. But my RN board scores in 1986 were in the top 1% of the USA so I bet if I really wanted to be a physician I have the smarts.
I didn't say YOU couldn't do it. I said many nurses couldn't, and that's a fact! I'm sure you've got the smarts, Ms. Top-1-Percentile. But, the truth of the matter is that many nurses couldn't complete the full education of a physician at the level expected of a medical student in the time of a medical student. Hell, I watched an RN in my organic chem class who graduated top of her class fail organic chemistry, despite her most sincere efforts. It was tragic. I felt horrible for her... she is a great lady and I was pulling for her.

What I don't have is the motivation. I like being a nurse. I like knowing I am making a difference in the world. I like taking the sickest patient in the unit that is circling the drain and creating an environment for them to survive.
That's great. Some people DO want to take part in that side of medicine. And, I believe what you say. There are plenty of good reasons to want to be a nurse, and there are plenty of good reasons to not want to become a physician. I never said otherwise.

No I am not freaking supergenius and I am not going to find the cure to cancer but I earn every little penny of my paycheck because I am a damn good nurse and I do not have to apologize to you because you think I am overpaid.
I've said repeatedly that I think nurses are paid a fair wage. Show me where I said otherwise.

The argument I made was that people need to realize that physicians also make a fair wage (on the low side of fair for FP and IM), and that they shouldn't be willing to just "suck it up" every time someone wants to kill their income. I illustrated how fair it was by highlighting things such as intensity of education and length of training, which you obviously found offensive for some reason, despite their truth! I apologize of the truth offends you.

I respect the physicians I work with and they respect me. How's it working out for you?
Believe it or not, I love the nurses and the nurses love me. ^_^ And, I treat everybody with respect. I highly prize professionalism and teamwork, in the work place. However, I do have a few pet-peeves that I frequently discuss on the forums. Here are a few of them: (1) Doctors make too much money (2) Doctors shouldn't ever think about money (3) Nurses / PA's think they're doctors.
 
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Rendar5

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I didn't say YOU couldn't do it. I said many nurses couldn't, and that's a fact! I'm sure you've got the smarts, Ms. Top-1-Percentile. But, the truth of the matter is that many nurses couldn't complete the full education of a physician at the level expected of a medical student in the time of a medical student. Hell, I watched an RN in my organic chem class who graduated top of her class fail organic chemistry, despite her most sincere efforts. It was tragic. I felt horrible for her... she is a great lady and I was pulling for her.

That's great. Some people DO want to take part in that side of medicine. And, I believe what you say. There are plenty of good reasons to want to be a nurse, and there are plenty of good reasons to not want to become a physician. I never said otherwise.

I've said repeatedly that I think nurses are paid a fair wage. Show me where I said otherwise.

The argument I made was that people need to realize that physicians also make a fair wage (on the low side of fair for FP and IM), and that they shouldn't be willing to just "suck it up" every time someone wants to kill their income. I illustrated how fair it was by highlighting things such as intensity of education and length of training, which you obviously found offensive for some reason, despite their truth! I apologize of the truth offends you.

Believe it or not, I love the nurses and the nurses love me. ^_^ And, I treat everybody with respect. I highly prize professionalism and teamwork, in the work place. However, I do have a few pet-peeves that I frequently discuss on the forums. Here are a few of them: (1) Doctors make too much money (2) Doctors shouldn't ever think about money (3) Nurses / PA's think they're doctors.
Why are you being so fresh and going off on nurses if the only pet peeve of yours that involves nurses isn't even being brought up in this thread?

Pre-tax I'll be making $100+/hr when I'm licensed post-residency. and I'm sure FM's and IM's aren't making under $50/hr when they're licensed post-residency. So I'm not really sure how the average nurse's salary comes anywhere close to the average doctor's salary. Which is why I'm not even sure how this thread came about and where it's going (other than taking opportunities to find ways to bash nurses, like telling stories of this one nurse who had problems with organic chemistry).
 

wagy27

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I don't think this thread was intended to compare attending salaries with nurses salaries but rather resident salaries with nurses salaries. If you think about it, despite being in training, residents work more hours, are given more responsibility in patient care decisions, and have received more education than nurses but are making less. To me it seems reasonable that residents make more than nurses and probably should be paid in the ballpark of a PA/NP given what I previously said. do I expect to see that happen, fat chance.
 

Rendar5

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I don't think this thread was intended to compare attending salaries with nurses salaries but rather resident salaries with nurses salaries. If you think about it, despite being in training, residents work more hours, are given more responsibility in patient care decisions, and have received more education than nurses but are making less. To me it seems reasonable that residents make more than nurses and probably should be paid in the ballpark of a PA/NP given what I previously said. do I expect to see that happen, fat chance.
I don't think resident salary v. nursing salary is a fair comparison. We are not licensed to work wherever we want. We are getting a helluva lot more on-the-job training and education opportunities. Hell, if I consider the cost of what I'm receiving in terms of education and added that to my salary, I'm making considerably more than the nurses. Of course, I'm in a 3 year residency. I think that after a certain period, resident pay should be elevating fairly fast and I think that PGY4's and up are not being paid enough. But as an intern, I think my pay is appropriate.

But I think that getting on nurses in any way for being paid an appropriate amount for the work that they do is tantamount to being a whiny bitch (I'm not referring to you wagy27, you're arguing just in terms of what an appropriate residency salary is, which is not in any way being whiny).
 

wagy27

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Rendar,

I think you make some good points. However, there are a few things to look at.

1. Education- Where I train most of my education comes early in the AM, lunchtime, or afterhours meaning while I am working I am not getting strict education more on the job training that is supervised. I still work the full day similar other nurses/PA/NP/etc.

2. As for independent care, in Michigan (where I train), a resident after 1 year of training and Step III can open up shop. if the state deems me capable of practicing independently shouldn't that translate into a more appropriate salary?

That being said, i would be scared if people started practicing after 1 year of residency.

In general I think I'm compensate fairly most times. However, I do look at the rate of medical education debt increasing, cost of living increases, and the loss of economic deferments and wonder how is a resident supposed to stay afloat and get to enjoy life a little bit sometimes.
 

tncekm

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Why are you being so fresh and going off on nurses if the only pet peeve of yours that involves nurses isn't even being brought up in this thread?
(1) they got pissed b/c they misinterpreted the intent of my post, so I responded (2) one of them made a stupid RN vs. MD vs. CEO argument as a means of attempting to dispel the significance education should play in compensation. I wouldn't say I was getting "fresh" or "going off".

Pre-tax I'll be making $100+/hr when I'm licensed post-residency. and I'm sure FM's and IM's aren't making under $50/hr when they're licensed post-residency. So I'm not really sure how the average nurse's salary comes anywhere close to the average doctor's salary.
Nurses get overtime, as do most people. And, physicians don't. I figured those numbers with the consideration that physicians were treated like the rest of the population (read: overtime) to make a point.

E.g.

$180,000/yr = a solid FP income. Average FP works 55hrs/wk. IF he/she were being paid like other workers, that's 15hrs of time-and-a-half. I.e. the FP should get paid for 62.5hrs worth of work, on average. $180,000/yr divided by 52 wks/yr divided by 62.5hrs/wk = $55/hr. That's assuming a $180k/yr salary. Make that $150k/yr and that's $46.15/hr.

Which is why I'm not even sure how this thread came about and where it's going (other than taking opportunities to find ways to bash nurses, like telling stories of this one nurse who had problems with organic chemistry).
Did you not read the posts before getting all paternal on me? I was highlighting the difference in education and how people shouldn't feel "guilty" for making more than nurses given the education, training, and work hour differences. I mentioned that med school is hard work, and many nurses couldn't even have made it through if they wanted--which is true! Then, she flipped out saying "how dare you say I couldn't make it through. I'm top 1 percentile, blah, blah, blah". So, I reminded her that I didnt' say anything about "her" abilities. And then I substantiated my earlier claim with a concrete experience.
 
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$180,000/yr = a solid FP income. Average FP works 55hrs/wk. IF he/she were being paid like other workers, that's 15hrs of time-and-a-half. I.e. the FP should get paid for 62.5hrs worth of work, on average. $180,000/yr divided by 52 wks/yr divided by 62.5hrs/wk = $55/hr. That's assuming a $180k/yr salary. Make that $150k/yr and that's $46.15/hr.
Your analysis is incorrect on this point. The vast majority of professionals (e.g., engineers, consultants, lawyers, etc) do not get paid time and a half for overtime. You get paid a salary to get the job done, regardless of time.

Edit: PS. 180k (or even 150k) for 55 hours per week is not, as things go, a bad deal. I imagine most jobs of any sort that pay 150-180k are going to require about that time commitment. For sure, it's the rare job that will land 150-180k on 40 hours a week.
 

tncekm

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Your analysis is incorrect on this point. The vast majority of professionals (e.g., engineers, consultants, lawyers, etc) do not get paid time and a half for overtime. You get paid a salary to get the job done, regardless of time.

Edit: PS. 180k (or even 150k) for 55 hours per week is not, as things go, a bad deal. I imagine most jobs of any sort that pay 150-180k are going to require about that time commitment. For sure, it's the rare job that will land 150-180k on 40 hours a week.
I understand that, I was making a point based on most people not most "professionals". My argument could be broadened to encompass professionals as a whole. Professionals work a lot, are typically very well educated, and therefore get paid a lot.

I'm not saying $180k/yr isn't enough. I'm simply saying that people shouldn't feel guilty about it because the people making less are making less for a bunch of reasons. For some odd reason everyone seems to feel that physicians are overpaid, and for most physicians, that's a ridiculous and, IMHO outright offensive, statement.
 

chitown82

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Dude you are annoying. You don't seem to be a team player. You need to get over yourself.

There is some cross over between what nurses and physicians do but nurses are not "little doctors" or wannabe doctors. Don't sit there and tell me I could not be a doctor if I wanted to. I didn't and I don't want to be a doctor. Not interested. But my RN board scores in 1986 were in the top 1% of the USA so I bet if I really wanted to be a physician I have the smarts. What I don't have is the motivation. I like being a nurse. I like knowing I am making a difference in the world. I like taking the sickest patient in the unit that is circling the drain and creating an environment for them to survive. No I am not freaking supergenius and I am not going to find the cure to cancer but I earn every little penny of my paycheck because I am a damn good nurse and I do not have to apologize to you because you think I am overpaid.

I respect the physicians I work with and they respect me. How's it working out for you?

I agree. tncekm - you are being annoying in this thread.

AbbyNormal - you sound like an awesome RN and I hope I encounter RNs like yourself during residency.
 

tncekm

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I agree. tncekm - you are being annoying in this thread.

AbbyNormal - you sound like an awesome RN and I hope I encounter RNs like yourself during residency.
Dude, you need to read the rest of the thread before you start thinking I came in here to start trolling. Please, give it a read. This is what happened "before" you jumped in and determined I was being an ass for no good reason and single handedly took this thread into a tangential direction. At worst I made one insensitive (but honest) post after many rational posts, and in response to a series of emotional and irrational posts.

Heard on the news this evening

Starting pay for new graduate nurse at the local teaching hospital:
$48,000 per year.

Stipend at same teaching hospital for newly graduated MD as PGY !
$47,250

Nurse will earn this salary working 40 hrs per week, will get time and a half for hours over 80. Holiday pay for working holidays. RN can be obtained at local community college, or a bachelors at state school for about $6000/year tuition (or less)

Resident will earn salary for working 80 hours a week. No consideration for holidays. Must also spend a good deal of time outside of work hours studying. Has spent 8 years in school.

**Sigh**
Irrelevant.

The nurse will probably still be earning close to the same amount three years from now. The doctor, on the other hand, can add at least $100,000 to that figure, regardless of specialty.

Kwitcherbitchin'.
Just in case you didn't notice, THIS is precisely where the attending v. RN debate started. It was not, in any way, initiated by yours truly, despite the fact I'm getting credit for it.

tncekm said:
I'd say "semi irrelevant", but that's an oxymoron. Doctors make more money partially because they work more hours. Sure, they make more money on an hourly basis, but not as much as you'd think considering the difference in their training and patient-load--at least for people in IM and FP.
Lots of folks work more hours than doctors for far less money.

Don't lose your perspective.
Now, you'll see I'm being guilted into making a decent wage after committing to a 15yr education and a 60hr workweek.

tncekm said:
...

Don't kid yourself, most physicians--primarily FP and IM-- are not given unfairly good treatment. We make good money, but the only thing we have many other people don't is long hours and job security.

Don't try to convince me that I should feel guilty I might make $180/yr after 15 years of intense higher education + residency that probably 90% of people aren't even capable of completing when I work a 55-60hr/wk.

I'll be grateful, and feel blessed to have a good paying job that is exceptionally rewarding, but I'm sure as hell not going to feel like a guilty fool.
All the more reason to wonder why you're complaining about nurses earning forty-something per year. You started this thread, after all.
I didn't start the thread, actually. I just commented. Plus, nurses sure as heck don't make $40k/yr where I come from. Maybe LVN's. I think they deserve a good wage, I'm not complaining.

If hospitals do spend as much money training residents as they say they do, then I don't even feel too bad about resident salary. I'll take it.
My bad. You're just guilty by association. ;)


Y'all need to quit thinking of a residency stipend as a "salary." As a resident, you're being paid to receive training. That doesn't happen in nurse-land.
tncekm said:
No, you're right. But, nurses also don't train for 3-5 years on average + 4 yrs of med school--that's a long time not to make any money at all. Nor do they have $1000/month in student loans. lol
So what? You're still making a f*cking fortune compared to them!

Do have any idea how whiny you sound...? Gawd help us all. :rolleyes:
Lets not forget how unfair it is that CEOs make much more income with much less education.

One example: Charles O'Brien makes $580,066 as CEO of the West Penn Allegheny Health System.

Or is it just nurses that we hate?
Now the nurse brings out the puppy dog eyes and the ridiculous, and irrelevant, comparison.

tncekm said:
No, clearly there is an issue with some administrators. But, at the same time, being the CEO of an entire health system just might require a hell of a lot of work and know-how. :D
I was still being more than polite at this point, but shortly thereafter a few more irritating comments were made, and I started in with the "don't compare an RN to a CEO post". They got defensive far before I ever said anything offensive. So, please spare me your self-righteous, and paternal protection.
 
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Law2Doc

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Heard on the news this evening

Starting pay for new graduate nurse at the local teaching hospital:
$48,000 per year.

Stipend at same teaching hospital for newly graduated MD as PGY !
$47,250

Nurse will earn this salary working 40 hrs per week, will get time and a half for hours over 80. Holiday pay for working holidays. RN can be obtained at local community college, or a bachelors at state school for about $6000/year tuition (or less)

Resident will earn salary for working 80 hours a week. No consideration for holidays. Must also spend a good deal of time outside of work hours studying. Has spent 8 years in school.

**Sigh**
I too don't get what the issue here is. Where I am, there's a bad nursing shortage so if they are so inclined, nurses can pick up extra shifts and work 60-70 hours/week earning a LOT more than folks in fellowships, let alone first year residents. But so what -- they serve a very different job function, one where demand far exceeds supply, and their salary for the most part doesn't go up much with seniority. A decade from now they will still be earning similar base plus overtime. The average resident will hopefully be earning a lot more than fellow money a decade later. And most importantly, he won't get called in to change some 90 year old's diaper, while telling the drug addict in the next bed that it's not yet time for the next dose of dilaudid.

This is not unique to medicine by the way. At a lot of the smaller law firms an experienced and good legal secretary can earn more than some first year associate attorneys. Experience and role dictate salary more than some paper degree. The degree dictates mobility. The associate will presumably move up the hierarchy and earn more, the secretary won't.
 

chitown82

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Dude, you need to read the rest of the thread before you start thinking I came in here to start trolling. Please, give it a read. This is what happened "before" you jumped in and determined I was being an ass for no good reason and single handedly took this thread into a tangential direction. At worst I made one insensitive (but honest) post after many rational posts, and in response to a series of emotional and irrational posts.
I read the entire thread before posting. I never said you were trolling, being an ass, etc. Are you sure you read what I wrote? :laugh: My comment about you being annoying still stands. *Awaiting more rants from you.*
 

tncekm

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I read the entire thread before posting. I never said you were trolling, being an ass, etc. Are you sure you read what I wrote? :laugh: My comment about you being annoying still stands. *Awaiting more rants from you.*
Okay, whatever floats your boat. I'm just glad to know there are self-righteous people like you to tell me when I've crossed the line when I make one insensitive, but true, post in response to several down-right ridiculous ones.
 
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chitown82

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Okay, whatever floats your boat. I'm just glad to know there are self-righteous people like you to tell me when I've crossed the line when I make one insensitive, but true, post in response to several down-right ridiculous ones.
You're so sensitive! Your posts/tone in this thread are annoying in my opinion...that is all. I'm sure you find me annoying as well. Calm down!
 

smq123

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Everybody can calm down.

It seems (to me) that the fundamental question being asked is whether or not a fully fledgef RN ought to make more than a PGY-1. I think that's a reasonable summation of the OP, right? And I think that's a fair question.

My (biased) inclination is to say, no, interns should get paid more than a nurse. I don't get paid overtime, the chance that I will get sued is higher, and a host of other things that make the intern's job....well...unpleasant at times.

I think part of it boils down to the fact that a resident's job falls in an odd no-mans-land between being a "training position" and a "real job." I remember trying to explain the match to my non-physician father, and he was TOTALLY befuddled by it. "So...wait. You can't negotiate job conditions, you have to accept whatever job you get matched to, and you work the equivalent of TWO full time jobs and they refuse to pay you time and a half for overtime??!? WTF kind of [email protected]!tty deal IS this?!?!!"

Overall, I don't think that nurses are overpaid. I work with several top-notch ones, and they deserve every dollar they make. But I do feel like residents, and physicians in general, are oftentimes not compensated well for what they have to put up with. Debt is getting out of hand, the way some staff (including some nurses) treat med students and interns is unacceptable and unnecessary, and protection from frivolous lawsuits is nearly nonexistent.

(Although I will admit to wishing that nurses could get fined for dumb pages after 11PM. Bomb paging me at 3AM and then saying "Whoops I thought you were ultrasound!!" is just....kinda not cool.)
 

fab4fan

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And they should be held accountable for that, smq. I really don't get that behavior, at all. If you were ever called to account for doing that, how would you explain yourself? Do we have a generation of crybabies taking over the nursing profession? Seriously, get a grip. (Not you, smq, the bomb-pagers.)

FWIW, I try to never tell someone he/she looks tired. It's another way of saying, "Hey! You look like [email protected]!" If you didn't feel like you looked like [email protected] before, you sure do after that comment.
 

smq123

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And they should be held accountable for that, smq. I really don't get that behavior, at all. If you were ever called to account for doing that, how would you explain yourself? Do we have a generation of crybabies taking over the nursing profession? Seriously, get a grip. (Not you, smq, the bomb-pagers.)
I honestly don't know. I don't know if hospitals are becoming increasingly complicated places to be, if people are becoming increasingly entitled, or people are becoming more reluctant to think for themselves and less willing to take responsibility for their actions. Some veteran nurses have told me that they feel like patients are becoming more entitled and that the younger nurses are less willing to think for themselves - the latter may be related to the wide variety of advanced nursing careers that pay better. I wonder how many people are just coasting through their early nursing careers so that they can get to the CRNA promise land? I really don't know...I'm just speculating at this point.

I feel like a lot of trainees are also not big on thinking for themselves. I remember being in the hallway and seeing 3 young pharm students walking together. They were walking slowly - well, they had to, seeing as they were all wearing very high heeled boots that seemed more appropriate for clubbing than for working in a hospital. They were also blocking the hallway completely, which became a real problem when they called a Code Blue on a patient down the hall. The three just didn't seem to stop and think that there's a REASON for this loud clash of Danskos behind them. :laugh: Eventually, a nurse had to nudge them out of the way, because the nurse pushing the crash cart couldn't get by. :rolleyes:

FWIW, I try to never tell someone he/she looks tired. It's another way of saying, "Hey! You look like [email protected]!" If you didn't feel like you looked like [email protected] before, you sure do after that comment.
:love: Can you come work at my hospital?? Please?
 

ResidentMD

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Everybody can calm down.

It seems (to me) that the fundamental question being asked is whether or not a fully fledgef RN ought to make more than a PGY-1. I think that's a reasonable summation of the OP, right? And I think that's a fair question.

My (biased) inclination is to say, no, interns should get paid more than a nurse. I don't get paid overtime, the chance that I will get sued is higher, and a host of other things that make the intern's job....well...unpleasant at times.

I think part of it boils down to the fact that a resident's job falls in an odd no-mans-land between being a "training position" and a "real job." I remember trying to explain the match to my non-physician father, and he was TOTALLY befuddled by it. "So...wait. You can't negotiate job conditions, you have to accept whatever job you get matched to, and you work the equivalent of TWO full time jobs and they refuse to pay you time and a half for overtime??!? WTF kind of [email protected]!tty deal IS this?!?!!"

Overall, I don't think that nurses are overpaid. I work with several top-notch ones, and they deserve every dollar they make. But I do feel like residents, and physicians in general, are oftentimes not compensated well for what they have to put up with. Debt is getting out of hand, the way some staff (including some nurses) treat med students and interns is unacceptable and unnecessary, and protection from frivolous lawsuits is nearly nonexistent.

(Although I will admit to wishing that nurses could get fined for dumb pages after 11PM. Bomb paging me at 3AM and then saying "Whoops I thought you were ultrasound!!" is just....kinda not cool.)
:thumbup:

And thanks for (hopefully) bringing this thread back on track, rather than it turning into another slugfest and ground for venting.
 

AbbyNormal

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Your analysis is incorrect on this point. The vast majority of professionals (e.g., engineers, consultants, lawyers, etc) do not get paid time and a half for overtime. You get paid a salary to get the job done, regardless of time.
Excellent point.

I have no problem with residents feeling they are not paid as much as they are worth. I just don't think it is valid to blanket statement compare doctors to nurses. And I certainly agree that sometimes the residents' hours push the body and mind to the limit. I have worked 80, 100, 120 hours per week but it was my choice and I did it not so much for the money but because I love the energy of critical care. Thrill seeking in a way, I guess.

If you really want change stop fussing on SDN and start collectively complaining to the AMA.


Yeah, tncekm, you were a bit annoying but I am not upset. I have raised a teenager with oppositional defiant disorder so a rant of a college student is no biggie. I just wanted to tell you something though because I am being mischievous - the critical care unit I work in is very specialized and has the highest acuity of patients in our hospital and the nurses in my unit do things like titrating vasoactive meds, inserting arterial monitoring lines and removing chest tubes and stuff that the other hospital nurses are not trained to do. We can float out to other units but other nurses cannot float into our unit. So a couple of times when we have had blizzards and such the hospital was concerned that if some of the nurses in our unit went home we might not be able to traverse the bad roads and get back. No nurses meant cancelled surgeries which meant decreased revenue. So they offered to pay us our regular hourly wage for eight hours sleep time if we would not go home. Several of us stayed for a few days and the hospital paid the nurses to sleep! I'm just messing with you now, bud, because if you thought life was unfair before I figured this would get your goat. :laugh:
 

Paseo Del Norte

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In this case I was using it as a way of describing all the excessive fuss we are making in comparing salaries. I think it is broad statement that literally means to stop acting or thinking in a rational manner.
 

tncekm

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Listen, I entirely appreciate your humor here. I'm happy to see that we've moved this direction, honestly. :D But, I think either my furiously flying fingers did a piss-poor job and transmitting my thoughts to text or you have skimmed my posts and not quite seen everything I've said.

I've never once complained that nurses are overpaid (aside from some CRNA's--and even then I'll admit their pay is market driven, so I don't exactly have legs to stand on in that complaint). In addition, I never said I'm bothered by what nurses are paid, I've repeatedly said that they're paid fairly (even far too low in several states, IMHO)! I do realized that nursing school requires quite a bit of time and dedication, and being a nurse is definitely not easy work. I also clearly stated my position on the OP, which was that I feel our pay is probably fair considering the hospital (claims) it spends so much money training us and I saw no reason to be upset that an RN was making more than a resident.

I just got bothered by some of the PC and hypersensitive responses. That's all ;)

Yeah, tncekm, you were a bit annoying but I am not upset. I have raised a teenager with oppositional defiant disorder so a rant of a college student is no biggie. I just wanted to tell you something though because I am being mischievous - the critical care unit I work in is very specialized and has the highest acuity of patients in our hospital and the nurses in my unit do things like titrating vasoactive meds, inserting arterial monitoring lines and removing chest tubes and stuff that the other hospital nurses are not trained to do. We can float out to other units but other nurses cannot float into our unit. So a couple of times when we have had blizzards and such the hospital was concerned that if some of the nurses in our unit went home we might not be able to traverse the bad roads and get back. No nurses meant cancelled surgeries which meant decreased revenue. So they offered to pay us our regular hourly wage for eight hours sleep time if we would not go home. Several of us stayed for a few days and the hospital paid the nurses to sleep! I'm just messing with you now, bud, because if you thought life was unfair before I figured this would get your goat. :laugh:
As for me feeling "life is unfair", let me remind you of my position on that. lol

tncekm said:
I'll be grateful, and feel blessed to have a good paying job that is exceptionally rewarding, but I'm sure as hell not going to feel like a guilty fool.
 
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tncekm

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You're so sensitive! Your posts/tone in this thread are annoying in my opinion...that is all. I'm sure you find me annoying as well. Calm down!
Fair enough. And, I wouldn't quite say you're "annoying", you were just taking the defensive position with the rest of the herd and I understand that. :D
 

AbbyNormal

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Listen, I entirely appreciate your humor here. I'm happy to see that we've moved this direction, honestly. :D But, I think either my furiously flying fingers did a piss-poor job and transmitting my thoughts to text or you have skimmed my posts and not quite seen everything I've said.
No problem. I'm not mad. And I'm not Nurse Ratched.

I take issue with the title of the thread being nurse pay versus resident pay (yes I know you didn't write that) because I don't think that is really the issue. I would like to see reasonable working schedules and fair monetary compensation for residents. I just don't think my salary has any bearing on that. Since the Dept of Health and Human Services primarily funds residencies I don't know what Obamacare will mean for your salary but if you wanna march on Washington let me know and I'll march in support with you. :)
 

tncekm

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No problem. I'm not mad. And I'm not Nurse Ratched.

I take issue with the title of the thread being nurse pay versus resident pay (yes I know you didn't write that) because I don't think that is really the issue. I would like to see reasonable working schedules and fair monetary compensation for residents. I just don't think my salary has any bearing on that.
And, I agree with you on this. lol

Since the Dept of Health and Human Services primarily funds residencies I don't know what Obamacare will mean for your salary but if you wanna march on Washington let me know and I'll march in support with you. :)
Ha, ha... I'm not asking for more and I'm not sure I'd march over a little less, I just don't want people to try to guilt me into taking whatever simply because.

:thumbup:
 

Coastie

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PGY-1's should be paid higher than nurses within the hospital, including APRNs/PAs.

Unfortunately, this will never happen.
 

physicsnerd42

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Last year I made something like $26,000 as a grad student (plus whatever my health care cost). Every lab tech here gets paid more than I do. Heck, some of the undergrads with research fellowships get paid more per month than I do. I also, however, have to take into account benefits: I'm getting paid this much per year, but in about two more years I will receive a PhD and two years after that I will receive my MD. In four years, those people who keep the lab tech job will have earned more money than I will have, but they will not have accrued any more credentials/degrees and their future earning potential (and career potential) will be more limited than mine.

As a resident: sure, you're not getting paid very much when you compare your pay with the other staff at the hospital. At the same time you are earning benefits: you are getting training which will allow you to become a board certified (or eligible) physician in the future. In five years, the nurses will still be earning a good salary but you will have also earned the ability to practice medicine independently and earn a great salary. So, I'd say that your non-monetary benefits in residency are pretty good.
 

EaglesPA

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As a resident: sure, you're not getting paid very much when you compare your pay with the other staff at the hospital. At the same time you are earning benefits: you are getting training which will allow you to become a board certified (or eligible) physician in the future. In five years, the nurses will still be earning a good salary but you will have also earned the ability to practice medicine independently and earn a great salary. So, I'd say that your non-monetary benefits in residency are pretty good.

Wait till you are a resident and we'll see whether you still feel you are fairly compensated for your 80-hour work week.

I realise how little I'm being paid when I moonlight and get $800-1000 per 12 hour shift doing basically the same job I do as a resident (and getting paid ~50,000 a year = $4200 a month = $ 1050 a week.)
 

Eta Carinae

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tncekm, you'll soon understand why as much as possible I make it a personal policy not to consort with nurses.

We *may* hang out after work or whatever but when it comes to work...

it's best said this way-
"The wise man knows he doesn't know. the fool doesn't know he doesn't know." (Lao Tzu)



NO personal insult to anyone.
 

Eta Carinae

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oh and btw, tncekm,
I love your spirit. This is what we need in our profession. Young minds who continually challenge a perverted status-quo.

Anyone who says you're being "annoying" is just intimidated by your well-placed/righteous indignation.
 

Maybeknot

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As others have alluded to, there's a nursing shortage in this country that is only going to get worse. There is no corresponding shortage of residents-- in fact, judging from the NRMP statistics and the posts on this forum, there is an oversupply of people trying to get into residency. Market principles suggest that nursing pay should increase and resident pay should corresponding decrease, no? :rolleyes:

The only avenue for complaint is that residents cannot negotiate their salaries. At the same time, I don't really care-- I'm just glad I don't have to pay tuition anymore.
 

fab4fan

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I honestly don't know. I don't know if hospitals are becoming increasingly complicated places to be, if people are becoming increasingly entitled, or people are becoming more reluctant to think for themselves and less willing to take responsibility for their actions. Some veteran nurses have told me that they feel like patients are becoming more entitled and that the younger nurses are less willing to think for themselves - the latter may be related to the wide variety of advanced nursing careers that pay better. I wonder how many people are just coasting through their early nursing careers so that they can get to the CRNA promise land? I really don't know...I'm just speculating at this point.

I feel like a lot of trainees are also not big on thinking for themselves. I remember being in the hallway and seeing 3 young pharm students walking together. They were walking slowly - well, they had to, seeing as they were all wearing very high heeled boots that seemed more appropriate for clubbing than for working in a hospital. They were also blocking the hallway completely, which became a real problem when they called a Code Blue on a patient down the hall. The three just didn't seem to stop and think that there's a REASON for this loud clash of Danskos behind them. :laugh: Eventually, a nurse had to nudge them out of the way, because the nurse pushing the crash cart couldn't get by. :rolleyes:



:love: Can you come work at my hospital?? Please?
You must have been reading my mind. Sometimes I wish I could do that trick like Clark Kent does in Superman when he flies around the world really fast to rewind time. I want to go back to when people had at least a measure of respect for the people who took care of them when they were sick. This attitude of entitlement is something I was not taught how to handle when I was a student; people just didn't behave this badly.

:confused:

Who wears high-heeled boots to work? I don't get people sometimes.
 

cali-ob

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Wait till you are a resident and we'll see whether you still feel you are fairly compensated for your 80-hour work week.

I realise how little I'm being paid when I moonlight and get $800-1000 per 12 hour shift doing basically the same job I do as a resident (and getting paid ~50,000 a year = $4200 a month = $ 1050 a week.)
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I too have learned this lesson...gotta love moonlighting. More money, AND you can work so much faster when you don't have to precept every patient. It's awesome.
 

AbbyNormal

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tncekm, you'll soon understand why as much as possible I make it a personal policy not to consort with nurses.

We *may* hang out after work or whatever but when it comes to work...

it's best said this way-
"The wise man knows he doesn't know. the fool doesn't know he doesn't know." (Lao Tzu)



NO personal insult to anyone.
I am not sure I understand what you mean. You don't want to associate with nurses when at work?

It is not often that nurses or residents have much extra time to just hang out but I remember a quiet night shift in 1987. A resident and I were fond of each other and she asked if I would like to go down to radiology to learn a bit about interpreting xrays. I am no expert but now I can recognize pneumothorax, know the difference between pleural effusion and pulmonary edema, can tell if an ETT is properly placed, et cetera. I would never ever "diagnose" a CXR but if I see a problem now I know when to call the physician at 2am because my patient needs a chest tube that can't wait til morning (of course correlate with clinical assessment such as no breath sounds on one side). Sometimes I'll call a resident who can diagnose a problem if I see something that is suspicious. I am glad my resident friend didn't mind consorting with me.

You call it consorting. I call it being a team.

If I have misunderstood you I apologize.
 

JeffLebowski

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As others have alluded to, there's a nursing shortage in this country that is only going to get worse. There is no corresponding shortage of residents-- in fact, judging from the NRMP statistics and the posts on this forum, there is an oversupply of people trying to get into residency. Market principles suggest that nursing pay should increase and resident pay should corresponding decrease, no? :rolleyes:

The only avenue for complaint is that residents cannot negotiate their salaries. At the same time, I don't really care-- I'm just glad I don't have to pay tuition anymore.
:laugh:

Where did you get these ideas? No shortage of residents? It really doesn't have anything to do with resident salaries or positions available vs. applicants per position, they're basically capped because Medicare funds them and limits the amount programs are compensated for each resident, not because nurses are more valuable than residents.
 

Maybeknot

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:laugh:

Where did you get these ideas? No shortage of residents? It really doesn't have anything to do with resident salaries or positions available vs. applicants per position, they're basically capped because Medicare funds them and limits the amount programs are compensated for each resident, not because nurses are more valuable than residents.
One of these days, perhaps someone will teach you about supply and demand. It won't be me, though. :sleep:
 

JeffLebowski

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One of these days, perhaps someone will teach you about supply and demand. It won't be me, though. :sleep:
Yeah, and maybe someone will teach you that a FIXED number of medical school spots exist. And a FIXED number of medical graduates are eligible for a FIXED number of residency positions, which are more or less set at a FIXED salary, because they're compensated at a FIXED rate per resident.

If only I could wake you to enlighten me how this scenario obeys free market economics.
 

Maybeknot

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Yeah, and maybe someone will teach you that a FIXED number of medical school spots exist. And a FIXED number of medical graduates are eligible for a FIXED number of residency positions, which are more or less set at a FIXED salary, because they're compensated at a FIXED rate per resident.

If only I could wake you to enlighten me how this scenario obeys free market economics.
And this FIXED number of medical graduates eligible for residency positions exceeds the FIXED number of residency positions.

Keep arguing the unarguable. I've had to listen to pilots make the same arguments (and entry level pilots at regional carriers get paid substantially less than PGY-1's). It doesn't fly. As long as there are more people that are willing to take these positions at these salaries, there's no reason to increase them. (And when pilots make mistakes, dozens to hundreds of people die-- not 1.)
 

AbbyNormal

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I wish somebody could enlighten me how it is a competition between a nurse salary and a resident salary. :confused:

Different training, different responsibilities, different pay sources, different, different, different.

I want more money for ALL of us. (and right now enough for me to buy some new tires and rotors)

I do understand the CRNA/AA/anesthesiologist thing a bit. That makes a bit more sense.

But I don't see how you can compare residents to nurses anymore than comparing residents to dentists.

*sigh*

going back to hide under my rock now
 

Law2Doc

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I wish somebody could enlighten me how it is a competition between a nurse salary and a resident salary. :confused:

Different training, different responsibilities, different pay sources, different, different, different.

I want more money for ALL of us. (and right now enough for me to buy some new tires and rotors)

I do understand the CRNA/AA/anesthesiologist thing a bit. That makes a bit more sense.

But I don't see how you can compare residents to nurses anymore than comparing residents to dentists.

*sigh*

going back to hide under my rock now
Totally agree.
 

tncekm

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oh and btw, tncekm,
I love your spirit. This is what we need in our profession. Young minds who continually challenge a perverted status-quo.

Anyone who says you're being "annoying" is just intimidated by your well-placed/righteous indignation.
Thanks. Glad someone can appreciate my annoying ass :D
 

tncekm

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As others have alluded to, there's a nursing shortage in this country that is only going to get worse. There is no corresponding shortage of residents-- in fact, judging from the NRMP statistics and the posts on this forum, there is an oversupply of people trying to get into residency. Market principles suggest that nursing pay should increase and resident pay should corresponding decrease, no? :rolleyes:

The only avenue for complaint is that residents cannot negotiate their salaries. At the same time, I don't really care-- I'm just glad I don't have to pay tuition anymore.
Not sure where you get that idea. Where I'm from nurses can't find jobs for beans. A few of my new grad friends have been unemployed since day 1 of graduation last year. I haven't heard of any "overabundance" of residents (at least not in the US).
 

Law2Doc

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... I haven't heard of any "overabundance" of residents (at least not in the US).
Well there are always more applicants than match spots is what I think he's referring to.

As for nursing shortage, that's not exactly a state secret. It's one of those jobs that folks can find work in most parts of the country with very little effort. it's so bad that lots of hospitals have to regularly hire folks at higher rates on a contract basis to pick up shifts where the full time staffing isn't adequate.
 

tncekm

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Well there are always more applicants than match spots is what I think he's referring to.
Well, sure, I guess if you include IMG's. But, I'd wager there are a trillion foreign nurses that'd love to work here, too.

As for nursing shortage, that's not exactly a state secret. It's one of those jobs that folks can find work in most parts of the country with very little effort. it's so bad that lots of hospitals have to regularly hire folks at higher rates on a contract basis to pick up shifts where the full time staffing isn't adequate.
Well, there are bound to be parts of the country where people just don't want to work. How much worse is the nursing shortage than the doctors shortage in these areas?