NY Times article on vet med profession

[devyn]

What about not offering federal loans to students wishing to travel abroad? That would significantly reduce the number of students able/willing to go to a foreign school.

So, cap US schools, reduce the number of foreign trained graduates...I just don't see why you think that would drive up the number of vets produced in the US.

So those of us wishing to study outside of the US at veterinary schools should have to suffer because you don't want to take the hit where the problem actually lies (within the US). There needs to be a restriction on the expansion of veterinary schools in the US as well as a restriction on the opening of new schools within the US. Capping class sizes should also occur. Stopping federal funding to students wishing to study outside the US is not going to solve the problem and may also compound it. The majority of the students studying in the Caribbean may return to the US for work, but that is not completely true for the students studying in Europe/UK/Australia. We now have the ability to work anywhere in the world and often choose to do so. In fact, my plan is to not come back to the US and to work in Europe. So by limiting our ability to get loans you are also essentially keeping us in the US and keeping us as your competition - which I thought was your main concern.

On another note - a lot of foreign graduates from veterinary schools all over the world seek to work in the US, so there will always be those graduates looking for work in the US as well. You can never control that and many employers look for a graduate with a diverse background.

Perhaps for once the US needs to take a look into its own backyard to solve the problem instead of looking elsewhere. If living outside of the US has taught me anything, it has taught me that the US as a whole has a lot less of it's ****e together than we think and it & the people in it rarely take responsibility for anything.

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[psilovethomas]

So those of us wishing to study outside of the US at veterinary schools should have to suffer because you don't want to take the hit where the problem actually lies (within the US). There needs to be a restriction on the expansion of veterinary schools in the US as well as a restriction on the opening of new schools within the US. Capping class sizes should also occur. Stopping federal funding to students wishing to study outside the US is not going to solve the problem and may also compound it. The majority of the students studying in the Caribbean may return to the US for work, but that is not completely true for the students studying in Europe/UK/Australia. We now have the ability to work anywhere in the world and often choose to do so. In fact, my plan is to not come back to the US and to work in Europe. So by limiting our ability to get loans you are also essentially keeping us in the US and keeping us as your competition - which I thought was your main concern.

On another note - a lot of foreign graduates from veterinary schools all over the world seek to work in the US, so there will always be those graduates looking for work in the US as well. You can never control that and many employers look for a graduate with a diverse background.

Perhaps for once the US needs to take a look into its own backyard to solve the problem instead of looking elsewhere. If living outside of the US has taught me anything, it has taught me that the US as a whole has a lot less of it's ****e together than we think and it & the people in it rarely take responsibility for anything.

Competition to get into veterinary school will be higher, but not jobs.

Wrote some patriotic post about why I hate when people start bashing the US because we just "complain and blame other people". Whatever. Don't need to get another topic started.

For those that study abroad, they most likely do so because they did not get into a US school. I, too, have seen plenty a time when some less than mediocre student applies and is accepted Ross or SGU, while I spent high school and undergrad working my butt off to be average and get accepted to school. It's like a way out- I'll just go to the Caribbean instead. These schools graduate up to 3 additional classes/year, and now that the stigma, PAVE, and no access to federal loans are gone, MORE people attend these schools and come back to the US. My main concern is Ross, SGU, and SMU. The number of UK/European graduates may be small in the grand scheme, but still has potential to impact the number of jobs available if they do not also cap their class size (Dick vet has 101 international and only ~75 UK students).

I agree that we have problems here in the US that need to be dealt with- capping class sizes, preventing new schools from opening (not likely to happen as the school in Arizona will open in 2014), and stabilizing tuition somehow. But there are other problems that need to be addressed, too, and I believe this is one of them.

 

[DVMDream]

For those that study abroad, they most likely do so because they did not get into a US school. I, too, have seen plenty a time when some less than mediocre student applies and is accepted Ross or SGU, while I spent high school and undergrad working my butt off to be average and get accepted to school. It's like a way out- I'll just go to the Caribbean instead. These schools graduate up to 3 additional classes/year, and now that the stigma, PAVE, and no access to federal loans are gone, MORE people attend these schools and come back to the US. My main concern is Ross, SGU, and SMU. The number of UK/European graduates may be small in the grand scheme, but still has potential to impact the number of jobs available if they do not also cap their class size (Dick vet has 101 international and only ~75 UK students).

Seriously.... not every single applicant to apply and be accepted to international schools is mediocre.... sorry, I tried in the US, three damn years in a row and was waitlisted every single time... I had average stats... a ****e ton of experience and worked my ass off from the time I was 12 to get to where I am now... and if that is really how you view others that go to schools overseas... you need to change your viewpoint....

I agree, there are people that get into all professions that maybe should not have but that is not limited to the international schools... I have seen inept vets from CSU and I have seen amazing vets from SGU... so that is a really bad blanket statement to be making... complete with an "I am better tone, because I got accepted in the US."

 

[devyn]

Competition to get into veterinary school will be higher, but not jobs.

Wrote some patriotic post about why I hate when people start bashing the US because we just "complain and blame other people". Whatever. Don't need to get another topic started.

For those that study abroad, they most likely do so because they did not get into a US school. I, too, have seen plenty a time when some less than mediocre student applies and is accepted Ross or SGU, while I spent high school and undergrad working my butt off to be average and get accepted to school. It's like a way out- I'll just go to the Caribbean instead. These schools graduate up to 3 additional classes/year, and now that the stigma, PAVE, and no access to federal loans are gone, MORE people attend these schools and come back to the US. My main concern is Ross, SGU, and SMU. The number of UK/European graduates may be small in the grand scheme, but still has potential to impact the number of jobs available if they do not also cap their class size (Dick vet has 101 international and only ~75 UK students).

I agree that we have problems here in the US that need to be dealt with- capping class sizes, preventing new schools from opening (not likely to happen as the school in Arizona will open in 2014), and stabilizing tuition somehow. But there are other problems that need to be addressed, too, and I believe this is one of them.

Yes well you will never understand a different perspective on the US if you have never lived outside the US - and that is all I will say on that topic.

As far as going to a international school as a last resort, that may be the case for a lot of the people who go to the Caribbean schools - but it sure as hell was not the case for me and I know it was not the case for a lot of my classmates here at UCD. I do not think it is fair to lump every international student into the same category. It is just as hard to get into the EU/UK/AU schools as it is to get into a US school. I worked my ass off to get here and I am definitely not mediocre.

I do agree that the class sizes and the amount of classes that schools like Ross can graduate need to be reduced significantly. It is more of a veterinarian producing factory then a higher education institution. But I do not agree in cutting federal loans to people wishing to study outside the US. Studying outside the US is an extremely valuable resource that can be offered to US citizens - it helps diversify their education, helps them see how other parts of the world live/function, and also helps create a more well-rounded veterinarian IMO. So I will not agree with cutting federal gov loans to that ever.

 

[capirinha]

.

 

[felinelvr44]

Are US citizen undergraduate students who choose to study at an international school (be it Europe or where-ever) eligible for undergrad stafford loans?

 

[devyn]

It is very elitist to think that every student wants to get their veterinary education in the US and would only chose international if they weren't good enough for the US - as if the other accredited international schools are not just as great, if not better, than US schools. I, for one, am declining my spot at a US school to go to the UK. The perks of being able to work in Europe when I am done is very appealing - not to mention the school is top-notch and actually much more "prestigious" than my IS that I turned down.

To address what you said about the Caribbean schools, I feel I must stick up for the students there. Yes, it is much "easier" to get into these schools because they tend to have a holistic admission approach and are much more forgiving with grades. HOWEVER, once you are admitted to SGU or Ross, you work your arse off - just like every other vet school. You study just as much, have as many tests, and are expected to know everything that every other veterinary student must learn.

Going to a Caribbean school is by no means a "way out". Why do you think the attrition rates are SO absurdly high? The schools give students a chance to prove themselves. The students who are lazy and "less than mediocre" as you say, will fail miserably and drop out. However, the ones who are dedicated and hard-working are able to thrive and end up graduating, having done the same amount of work and with the same education as your wonderful US degree.

Attitudes like yours make me ecstatic to go abroad.

well said

 

[psilovethomas]

I, too, have seen plenty a time when some less than mediocre student applies and is accepted to Ross or SGU, while I spent high school and undergrad working my butt off to be average and get accepted to school.

You all are putting words in my mouth. I never said UK schools or European schools when talking about personal experience. I guess I should clarify- see the bold from my original post. I know it is competitive to get into Edinburgh (must have above a 3.4), but not so much to get into a Carribean schools.
I am speaking from my own experience, to which I will stand up for. I'm sure there are great students that go to the Carribean schools, I never said that was not true, so don't bash me for that. I've just seen way too many people that I described go to Carribean schools. Maybe they didn't make it through the program because it was hard- I know about the attrition rates. But they still get the opportunity that I and so many others worked hard for. Instead, the people I DESCRIBED go to these schools.

My belief that reducing the number of foreign trained vets DOES NOT stem from a superiority complex, but rather a need to control veterinary populations by limiting the number of US and foreign seats at veterinary schools. I understand that a diverse training and background has a lot to offer, I just think that there is a bigger problem at hand.

 

[nyanko]

We now have the ability to work anywhere in the world and often choose to do so. In fact, my plan is to not come back to the US and to work in Europe. So by limiting our ability to get loans you are also essentially keeping us in the US and keeping us as your competition - which I thought was your main concern.

I am no super patriot believe me, but this justification seems backwards - the US government funds and helps with student loans - at least partially - theoretically because a more educated populace will eventually benefit the US itself. So then why SHOULD they give federal loans to people who plan to leave the US and not come back to allow them to reap those theoretical benefits?

(I'm in no way saying that it actually works this way all the time, just trying to follow your thinking and hit a wall there...)

 

[2CatMatt]

I am no super patriot believe me, but this justification seems backwards - the US government funds and helps with student loans - at least partially - theoretically because a more educated populace will eventually benefit the US itself. So then why SHOULD they give federal loans to people who plan to leave the US and not come back to allow them to reap those theoretical benefits?

(I'm in no way saying that it actually works this way all the time, just trying to follow your thinking and hit a wall there...)

Taxes.

 

[devyn]

I am no super patriot believe me, but this justification seems backwards - the US government funds and helps with student loans - at least partially - theoretically because a more educated populace will eventually benefit the US itself. So then why SHOULD they give federal loans to people who plan to leave the US and not come back to allow them to reap those theoretical benefits?

(I'm in no way saying that it actually works this way all the time, just trying to follow your thinking and hit a wall there...)

Yes and I hear what you are saying there.... I was mostly saying that as I remember PSI or someone else was complaining about the fact that we would come back and take their jobs from them, so I was just explaining that some of us do stay in Europe after we graduate. And no matter what, I will be paying through the nose to pay back my loans for the rest of my life, so the US gov will be paid back

 

[2CatMatt]

so the US gov will be paid back

With above-market interest.

 

[AceRH731]

I have been staying out of this argument but I can't stand that people ASSUME we didn't get in to US schools. For your information I only applied to European schools because unlike people studying in the US, I can work just about anywhere in this world. The way the job market is, it's nice having other options other than the states. As my mother says don't assume because it makes an ass out of you and me... Also I don't think it is appropriate that you attack students at Caribbean schools. You don't know their situations as every single persons is different. One day they will be your colleague so I sure hope such poor attitudes change.

 

[psilovethomas]

As my mother says don't assume because it makes an ass out of you and me... Also I don't think it is appropriate that you attack students at Caribbean schools. You don't know their situations as every single persons is different. One day they will be your colleague so I sure hope such poor attitudes change.

Read my last post. From my experience, that is what I have noticed, and so have many other people. I know people make it through Caribbean programs and I know those students will take the same NAVLE I will, and their degree will be equivalent to my degree that I earned in the states. I don't have a problem with that. My issue is with the people who have the attitude of "party now, go to the Caribbean later!" because those people are out there. I'm sure they are not the majority. But the Caribbean schools are almost like degree factories and will take just about anyone (Oh, here, take this additional semester of undergrad work at our school and then we will let you into our vet school). That should not happen and will really hurt the veterinary market.

 

[stxjawa]

I am no super patriot believe me, but this justification seems backwards - the US government funds and helps with student loans - at least partially - theoretically because a more educated populace will eventually benefit the US itself. So then why SHOULD they give federal loans to people who plan to leave the US and not come back to allow them to reap those theoretical benefits?

(I'm in no way saying that it actually works this way all the time, just trying to follow your thinking and hit a wall there...)

US Citizens still pay taxes to the US Gov. no matter where they live.

 

[ViaBea]

Read my last post. From my experience, that is what I have noticed, and so have many other people. I know people make it through Caribbean programs and I know those students will take the same NAVLE I will, and their degree will be equivalent to my degree that I earned in the states. I don't have a problem with that. My issue is with the people who have the attitude of "party now, go to the Caribbean later!" because those people are out there. I'm sure they are not the majority. But the Caribbean schools are almost like degree factories and will take just about anyone (Oh, here, take this additional semester of undergrad work at our school and then we will let you into our vet school). That should not happen and will really hurt the veterinary market.

I have an issue with those types of people too. I personally know someone who went there, had a 2.3 in undergrad (this was years ago, but she was a traditional applicant), was supposed to take an extra pre-req so she could apply to schools in the states (not that she would have gotten in) and dropped out of it, and then, basically told me that I should spend all my time going to bars and partying instead of focusing on grades and my jobs. Then, she had the nerve to tell me that I have no motivation, but that's another story. However, as an owner, I do not want my vet to have that type of attitude.

On the other hand, I know someone who went there after a few tries of applying and transferred to another school after a year, and I think he is a pretty good vet and would have no issues taking my animals to him.

I know too that I would jump at the chance to live in Europe though if I wouldn't miss my family so much.

 

[psilovethomas]

I know too that I would jump at the chance to live in Europe though if I wouldn't miss my family so much.

Yes, I could have gone to school in Germany for little to no cost, but I would lose my US citizenship. I would have to stay in Germany, leaving my SO behind. Neither of which I wanted to do, but zero debt sounds great.

 

[justavet]

A couple more points...
The Caribbean and EU/AU/NZ schools are a cheaper option for those paying non-resident tuition, and even for those paying resident tuition if you are so lucky to call PA or MI home. So, many of the students at these schools are there because they are obtaining an equivalent education for less money- that's a wiser use of federal student loan dollars than feeding more fuel to the fire that is Big Education in the US.
As noted, students at those schools work equally hard and pass the same exam to come back here to practice, repay their loans regardless of where they end up, pay income taxes regardless of where they end up...and have the option of going to other job markets since the US is job poor atm.
And let me get this straight... US students who go overseas can access other job markets rather than coming back to the overpressured US market- but somehow this is bad, because... why exactly?

To recap- cheaper education, competitive pressure for US schools, equivalent education, overseas experience, additional job markets, eases US labor oversupply, govt gets better return on investment as grad more likely to be employed.... why are we against this?

 

[hygebeorht]

Perhaps for once the US needs to take a look into its own backyard to solve the problem instead of looking elsewhere. If living outside of the US has taught me anything, it has taught me that the US as a whole has a lot less of it's ****e together than we think and it & the people in it rarely take responsibility for anything.

Yes well you will never understand a different perspective on the US if you have never lived outside the US - and that is all I will say on that topic.

No one is more fanatical than those who have recently converted, and no one is more eager to share their cosmopolitan opinions with the rubes back home than those who have recently moved abroad. That goes double for those who moved to Europe.

If there's anything I've learned in years and years of traveling, studying, working, and living abroad, it's that it's wise to give your opinions time to age before foisting them on the people you left at home. Things are almost never as they first appear. It can feel new and exciting to see your home country through the eyes of an outsider, but don't be so quick to disown your homeland and all the people in it. You may hurt people you did not intend to hurt with your careless words.

I'm not attacking you as unpatriotic, trust me. Those who like to think themselves arbiters of American patriotism would dismiss me as "unAmurrcan" on sight, and I can't blame them - I don't think the US is the greatest country on earth, I have serious issues with most of American foreign policy, and my fellow Americans often do things that embarrass and shame me. Nevertheless, despite my misgivings, I would never write off Americans as the type of people who rarely take responsibility for anything. First, it's blatantly untrue, and second, it doesn't further the discussion. People everywhere in all countries struggle to find solutions to their socioeconomic problems, which is what we're addressing in this thread - the difficult situation of American veterinary medicine today. The US hardly has a corner on the bad-times-for-vets market, and it's unhelpful to suggest that we restrict our discussion to solutions that affect only those students that attend US schools. As an expat, you should be aware that no country exists in a vacuum, and since it's American students going abroad with American funding for their international educations, it's only fair that those programs are examined as closely as programs on US soil when addressing the American veterinary problem.

I hope that as you spend more time abroad, your newly-minted international perspective gains greater depth and nuance, and you stop feeling the need to put down those who have not had the opportunity to leave their native countries. About 95% of humanity will never have that luxury. You and I have been extraordinarily lucky indeed to have such wonderful opportunities for travel and growth. Try to be more gracious about it.

I have been staying out of this argument but I can't stand that people ASSUME we didn't get in to US schools.

I usually assume this is true for the for-profit Caribbean schools, but that may be unfair of me. The less-than-stellar reputation and extraordinary cost of these programs suggests to me that they would probably be programs of last resort. However, I can think of many reasons people would choose to go to well-regarded programs in other parts of the world. Heck, if I hadn't already spent so much time abroad, I'd be tempted to apply to European or Australian programs. However, I could never justify the cost to myself at this point. For me, the best choice is the most economic choice.

To me it seems clear that when you're in a hole, stop digging. We need to slow the flow of new graduates into the market, or hasten the departure of professionals who are near retirement. Cutting class sizes in the US, rescinding accreditation for for-profit schools, and severely curtailing federal aid for students who wish to study at expensive institutions abroad all seem like sensible suggestions to effect the former solution. I just do not know where to start on ameliorating student debt loads, which seem to be part of the problem with encouraging older practitioners to retire. Debt-ridden younger vets may not be able to devote resources to things like buying practices when they have so much debt to service...though I know that doesn't begin to account for the reasons why older vets are staying in the game. What do you do for vets who came out of retirement when their investments tanked?

 

[hygebeorht]

I have to put this in a separate response, because my last one was getting to be novel-length.

How do we take on "Big Education," as justavet puts it? It seems to me that if we could just bring the cost of education back to a sensible number, that would alleviate many problems.

But can we ever hope to? A veterinary education is something that has a great deal of demand. If I declined every acceptance I got this year, they'd fill my spot in proverbial seconds with someone who would be happy to pay for the chance at a DVM. In a seller's market, I feel there's no chance of addressing runaway tuition figures.

 

[psilovethomas]

No one is more fanatical than those who have recently converted, and no one is more eager to share their cosmopolitan opinions with the rubes back home than those who have recently moved abroad. That goes double for those who moved to Europe.

If there's anything I've learned in years and years of traveling, studying, working, and living abroad, it's that it's wise to give your opinions time to age before foisting them on the people you left at home. Things are almost never as they first appear. It can feel new and exciting to see your home country through the eyes of an outsider, but don't be so quick to disown your homeland and all the people in it. You may hurt people you did not intend to hurt with your careless words.

I'm not attacking you as unpatriotic, trust me. Those who like to think themselves arbiters of American patriotism would dismiss me as "unAmurrcan" on sight, and I can't blame them - I don't think the US is the greatest country on earth, I have serious issues with most of American foreign policy, and my fellow Americans often do things that embarrass and shame me. Nevertheless, despite my misgivings, I would never write off Americans as the type of people who rarely take responsibility for anything. First, it's blatantly untrue, and second, it doesn't further the discussion. People everywhere in all countries struggle to find solutions to their socioeconomic problems, which is what we're addressing in this thread - the difficult situation of American veterinary medicine today. The US hardly has a corner on the bad-times-for-vets market, and it's unhelpful to suggest that we restrict our discussion to solutions that affect only those students that attend US schools. As an expat, you should be aware that no country exists in a vacuum, and since it's American students going abroad with American funding for their international educations, it's only fair that those programs are examined as closely as programs on US soil when addressing the American veterinary problem.

I hope that as you spend more time abroad, your newly-minted international perspective gains greater depth and nuance, and you stop feeling the need to put down those who have not had the opportunity to leave their native countries. About 95% of humanity will never have that luxury. You and I have been extraordinarily lucky indeed to have such wonderful opportunities for travel and growth. Try to be more gracious about it.



I usually assume this is true for the for-profit Caribbean schools, but that may be unfair of me. The less-than-stellar reputation and extraordinary cost of these programs suggests to me that they would probably be programs of last resort. However, I can think of many reasons people would choose to go to well-regarded programs in other parts of the world. Heck, if I hadn't already spent so much time abroad, I'd be tempted to apply to European or Australian programs. However, I could never justify the cost to myself at this point. For me, the best choice is the most economic choice.

To me it seems clear that when you're in a hole, stop digging. We need to slow the flow of new graduates into the market, or hasten the departure of professionals who are near retirement. Cutting class sizes in the US, rescinding accreditation for for-profit schools, and severely curtailing federal aid for students who wish to study at expensive institutions abroad all seem like sensible suggestions to effect the former solution. I just do not know where to start on ameliorating student debt loads, which seem to be part of the problem with encouraging older practitioners to retire. Debt-ridden younger vets may not be able to devote resources to things like buying practices when they have so much debt to service...though I know that doesn't begin to account for the reasons why older vets are staying in the game. What do you do for vets who came out of retirement when their investments tanked?

You put everything I want and could ever want to say in this post. My exam-tortured brain thanks you. I never meant to offend anyone, I just don't have a way with words like hygebeorht does, so I come off as blunt..a lot.

 

[DVMDream]

No one is more fanatical than those who have recently converted, and no one is more eager to share their cosmopolitan opinions with the rubes back home than those who have recently moved abroad. That goes double for those who moved to Europe.

If there's anything I've learned in years and years of traveling, studying, working, and living abroad, it's that it's wise to give your opinions time to age before foisting them on the people you left at home. Things are almost never as they first appear. It can feel new and exciting to see your home country through the eyes of an outsider, but don't be so quick to disown your homeland and all the people in it. You may hurt people you did not intend to hurt with your careless words.

I'm not attacking you as unpatriotic, trust me. Those who like to think themselves arbiters of American patriotism would dismiss me as "unAmurrcan" on sight, and I can't blame them - I don't think the US is the greatest country on earth, I have serious issues with most of American foreign policy, and my fellow Americans often do things that embarrass and shame me. Nevertheless, despite my misgivings, I would never write off Americans as the type of people who rarely take responsibility for anything. First, it's blatantly untrue, and second, it doesn't further the discussion. People everywhere in all countries struggle to find solutions to their socioeconomic problems, which is what we're addressing in this thread - the difficult situation of American veterinary medicine today. The US hardly has a corner on the bad-times-for-vets market, and it's unhelpful to suggest that we restrict our discussion to solutions that affect only those students that attend US schools. As an expat, you should be aware that no country exists in a vacuum, and since it's American students going abroad with American funding for their international educations, it's only fair that those programs are examined as closely as programs on US soil when addressing the American veterinary problem.

I hope that as you spend more time abroad, your newly-minted international perspective gains greater depth and nuance, and you stop feeling the need to put down those who have not had the opportunity to leave their native countries. About 95% of humanity will never have that luxury. You and I have been extraordinarily lucky indeed to have such wonderful opportunities for travel and growth. Try to be more gracious about it.

I suggest that you get to know people more on this forum before you suggest to them what they do and do not know... you don't know how long people have been out of the US for and you are not the expert on it... you have such an elitist attitude towards everyone here with a huge tone of arrogance... you do NOT know what other people have been through,, how long they have been out of the US or anything else about them.... so don't judge and do not assume things.... and just because we have had the "luxury" to leave the US does not mean that we should keep our feelings about it to ourselves and that we should just shut up and be "gracious".... so yeah... get over yourself.. you are not the resident expert on international affairs and how Americans living outside the US should react when others voice their opinions on places not in the US nor do you know what everyone on this forum has been through.... if anything we have a greater right to voice our opinions since we have seen it from both sides....

 

[sunshinevet]

No one is more fanatical than those who have recently converted, and no one is more eager to share their cosmopolitan opinions with the rubes back home than those who have recently moved abroad. That goes double for those who moved to Europe.

If there's anything I've learned in years and years of traveling, studying, working, and living abroad, it's that it's wise to give your opinions time to age before foisting them on the people you left at home. Things are almost never as they first appear. It can feel new and exciting to see your home country through the eyes of an outsider, but don't be so quick to disown your homeland and all the people in it. You may hurt people you did not intend to hurt with your careless words.

I'm not attacking you as unpatriotic, trust me. Those who like to think themselves arbiters of American patriotism would dismiss me as "unAmurrcan" on sight, and I can't blame them - I don't think the US is the greatest country on earth, I have serious issues with most of American foreign policy, and my fellow Americans often do things that embarrass and shame me. Nevertheless, despite my misgivings, I would never write off Americans as the type of people who rarely take responsibility for anything. First, it's blatantly untrue, and second, it doesn't further the discussion. People everywhere in all countries struggle to find solutions to their socioeconomic problems, which is what we're addressing in this thread - the difficult situation of American veterinary medicine today. The US hardly has a corner on the bad-times-for-vets market, and it's unhelpful to suggest that we restrict our discussion to solutions that affect only those students that attend US schools. As an expat, you should be aware that no country exists in a vacuum, and since it's American students going abroad with American funding for their international educations, it's only fair that those programs are examined as closely as programs on US soil when addressing the American veterinary problem.

I hope that as you spend more time abroad, your newly-minted international perspective gains greater depth and nuance, and you stop feeling the need to put down those who have not had the opportunity to leave their native countries. About 95% of humanity will never have that luxury. You and I have been extraordinarily lucky indeed to have such wonderful opportunities for travel and growth. Try to be more gracious about it.

Wow. I am struggling to think of a time when a more arrogant post was put on SDN. And that's including all of your previous excessively arrogant posts....

 

[Minnerbelle]

additional job markets, eases US labor oversupply, govt gets better return on investment as grad more likely to be employed....

Do you have data supporting this? I agree that there are theoretically additional job markets. But how many people actually take advantage of it? And how easy is it for a US citizen (even if they are licensed to work elsewhere) to get a work visa and get hired in the EU or Australia without further post-DVM training straight out of vet school? I'm sure there are people who do it, but is it an easy viable option for any average joe US national studying abroad? I personally have no idea how it is when it comes to people with professional degrees, but I was under the impression that the EU especially has a pretty hefty barrier of entry into their job market for foreigners.

What data do you have that makes you say students who go abroad are more likely to be employed? I'm super curious about this one, since we (as in a general we) can't even seem to agree on employment rates of veterinarians in general

Also... how do the Caribbean schools open additional job markets or ease US labor oversupply?

I'm personally not opposed to international vet schools, but I'm not sure I buy your reasoning.

 

[KCgophervet]

I suggest that you get to know people more on this forum before you suggest to them what they do and do not know... you don't know how long people have been out of the US for and you are not the expert on it... you have such an elitist attitude towards everyone here with a huge tone of arrogance... you do NOT know what other people have been through,, how long they have been out of the US or anything else about them.... so don't judge and do not assume things.... and just because we have had the "luxury" to leave the US does not mean that we should keep our feelings about it to ourselves and that we should just shut up and be "gracious".... so yeah... get over yourself.. you are not the resident expert on international affairs and how Americans living outside the US should react when others voice their opinions on places not in the US nor do you know what everyone on this forum has been through.... if anything we have a greater right to voice our opinions since we have seen it from both sides....

I feel like hygebeorht made their point exceptionally clear, and with much less feather-ruffling and negativity than your response. The overall message was sound and I don't think you're even attempting to read it without bias. It's easy to feel personally attacked by people with differing opinions on topics you care strongly for, but try to delve into the actual message without getting hung up on details you disagree with. I read an article recently that I've been trying to emulate, the overall message was to try to assume the best in people rather than the worst, most people aren't trying to be mean but just may communicate things in a way that may strike you as such initially.

Wow. I am struggling to think of a time when a more arrogant post was put on SDN. And that's including all of your previous excessively arrogant posts....

Again, I feel that you also need to drop some of the bias you clearly have for the poster and actually read the post. I have seen far far more arrogant posts on this very thread, let alone SDN as a whole.

You put everything I want and could ever want to say in this post. My exam-tortured brain thanks you. I never meant to offend anyone, I just don't have a way with words like hygebeorht does, so I come off as blunt..a lot.

Agreed. A lot of the post makes sense, and I feel super grateful for having had my own study abroad experiences. The only reason I didn't jump on a plane and head back to Murdoch U in Australia was because of the hefty pricetag associated with it - plus the additional year of schooling. I wish everyone could have the same opportunity.

 

[DVMDream]

I feel like hygebeorht made their point exceptionally clear, and with much less feather-ruffling and negativity than your response. The overall message was sound and I don't think you're even attempting to read it without bias. It's easy to feel personally attacked by people with differing opinions on topics you care strongly for, but try to delve into the actual message without getting hung up on details you disagree with. I read an article recently that I've been trying to emulate, the overall message was to try to assume the best in people rather than the worst, most people aren't trying to be mean but just may communicate things in a way that may strike you as such initially.

What point did she make "exceptionally clear"?? The point that she has oh so many more experiences abroad than us naive new international travellers and that we need to gain a less naive experience before we can voice our opinions....

The post was arrogant... and yes, I know what that means.... it is not any pre-conceived notion I have from the poster (even though many of her posts come off that way and I am NOT the only one that thinks this)... she makes assumptions on many things: 1. How long the person she was responding to has lived out of the US, she has no idea. 2. That this is the first time the poster she responded to has lived outside the US and 3. That the person does not have a right to voice their opinions on the differences seen between having lived in the US and outside the US because they have only done so for a short time....

I can tell you that I have only lived outside the US for about 9 months and I can already see vast differences... it is a shocking reality... and really is not something that you realize until you remove yourself from the US... the American mentality is truth... of course there are people in other countries who have the same... but it is most definitely obvious amongst Americans... I didn't believe it... but now I can actually see it... but I had to remove myself from the US to do so and yes I was one of those who was so wrapped up in America can do no wrong.... goodness has my attitude changed and in such a short time.

Anyway, back to my point: She came off as having this I know better attitude because she has "been there" before and we should just be "gracious" for our experiences when others can't have that.... you can still be "gracious" and voice your opinion... I have a right to voice my opinion based on my experiences without having someone else come around and say... "well I have been there before and you are naive to this experience and once you have been there longer you will get it and you need to just be gracious for what you have." I am an adult... do not tell me that I can not have an opinion because my experience is too "naive" compared to yours.... I had a very rough time when I first moved: I hated it... I saw the Scottish as lazy and incompetent... I wanted to go back home... I had some very hard times... I was hit with difficulty after difficulty from the start... so my international experience did not start off as looking through rose-coloured glasses straight off.... It took me a very long time to adjust and to realize the differences... it took me a while to drop the American attitude because I honestly just wanted to go back home... partly due to homesickness and a bigger part due to the difficulties that I experienced..... Yes, I do have a right to post my opinions based upon my experiences from both living in the US and living abroad without having someone else tell me that I am "naive" and need to basically "shut up and be gracious and quit voicing my opinions."

Side Note: This post was written whilst drunk... if this does not have a logical flow... that is why. Ok... bed time.

 

[BulldogMS]

You have a valid point, DVMDream, and your voice and perspective is important, or at the very least, interesting. For this topic perhaps more than others, the arrogance is so thick it can be cut with a steak knife and that's a shame. The assumptions of perfect strangers towards the nuances and perspectives of others is ridiculous. I'm almost looking forward to the day the uninformed arrives at vet school to find she isn't the be-all-end-all authority on everything from finances & fashion to friends & relationships. If my school is any indication, she's in for the shock of her life. My class has several fashionistas who are not shopping at Goodwill. More than a handful of parents are paying for their kids vet school education in full, along with living expenses. The parking lot has several Range Rover's, BMW's, Jeep's owned by students. Many students saddled with loans, are taking out just what they need and no more. What I'm saying is MSU's students are very diverse. For 85 students per class, you will likely not find a group of students more different and unique. To pigeonhole current vet students and make snap assumptions about individuals one has never met, doesn't know, is foolish.

 

[StartingoverVet]

No one is more fanatical than those who have recently converted, and no one is more eager to share their cosmopolitan opinions with the rubes back home than those who have recently moved abroad. That goes double for those who moved to Europe.

If there's anything I've learned in years and years of traveling, studying, working, and living abroad, it's that it's wise to give your opinions time to age before foisting them on the people you left at home. Things are almost never as they first appear. It can feel new and exciting to see your home country through the eyes of an outsider, but don't be so quick to disown your homeland and all the people in it. You may hurt people you did not intend to hurt with your careless words.

It doesn't take much time away from the U.S. to see its flaws much better than when you live here. Just like anything else in life, it is easier to see problems from a distance. Not sure why you think that would change with time because it certainly hasn't happened in my aged experience with myself or any of the large population of expats I have known and lived with.

And this whole harangue distracts from the conversation. Don't care if people are hurt to have reality presented to them.... let's face it, people love to blame others for their problems. In the 70s/80s we blamed the Japanese for our economic woes, for the 2000s we like to blame Europe and China, when the problems always lie within.

Foreigner schools are not causing the vet med problems in the U.S., mostly domestic schools are.

I feel like hygebeorht made their point exceptionally clear, and with much less feather-ruffling and negativity than your response. The overall message was sound and I don't think you're even attempting to read it without bias. It's easy to feel personally attacked by people with differing opinions on topics you care strongly for, but try to delve into the actual message without getting hung up on details you disagree with. I read an article recently that I've been trying to emulate, the overall message was to try to assume the best in people rather than the worst, most people aren't trying to be mean but just may communicate things in a way that may strike you as such initially.

Again, I feel that you also need to drop some of the bias you clearly have for the poster and actually read the post. I have seen far far more arrogant posts on this very thread, let alone SDN as a whole.

.

What message? I don't really see a point in the message except to be condescending as if her greater experience means she knows better. I HAVE GREATER experience and know she doesn't know better. She has her opinion and that is all it is, her opinion. ANd it is one I 100% disagree with. Just because I have about as much international experience as anyone could doesn't make me right either. But I recognize that and don't think I should preach to others because of it.

I don't know the OP, I haven't been paying much attention to SDN lately, but when I read an opening like i just quoted above, it is not hard to see the distraction it is to this conversation.

 

[StartingoverVet]

As for the issue of whether US students studying overseas should be getting student loans....

I just don't really see the problem. This is not like it is an entitlement costing taxpayers money.

30 year bonds are issued at around 3-3.5% last few years. We are charging 6.9% (or whatever) interest. You cannot default on these loans. The US government is making out pretty well on these loans. Hell, we should be making as many of these loans as possible

On the other hand, I could see an argument that loan forgiveness might not be afforded to international students, because that is an entitlement, but honestly don't see what the point is, because we are not trying to support US colleges.

IF the problem was in the overseas schools, then I could see trying to discourage students from attending them, but honestly the problem is being caused domestically right now, so that is where the solution has to START (always room to include foreign schools in the discussion, but it should be a corollary to the main solution).

 

[dyachei]

It doesn't take much time away from the U.S. to see its flaws much better than when you live here. Just like anything else in life, it is easier to see problems from a distance. Not sure why you think that would change with time because it certainly hasn't happened in my aged experience with myself or any of the large population of expats I have known and lived with.

And this whole harangue distracts from the conversation. Don't care if people are hurt to have reality presented to them.... let's face it, people love to blame others for their problems. In the 70s/80s we blamed the Japanese for our economic woes, for the 2000s we like to blame Europe and China, when the problems always lie within.

Foreigner schools are not causing the vet med problems in the U.S., mostly domestic schools are.



What message? I don't really see a point in the message except to be condescending as if her greater experience means she knows better. I HAVE GREATER experience and know she doesn't know better. She has her opinion and that is all it is, her opinion. ANd it is one I 100% disagree with. Just because I have about as much international experience as anyone could doesn't make me right either. But I recognize that and don't think I should preach to others because of it.

I don't know the OP, I haven't been paying much attention to SDN lately, but when I read an opening like i just quoted above, it is not hard to see the distraction it is to this conversation.

SOV, it's nice to have you back. As someone who grew up overseas, I agree with your position on this wholeheartedly. I was beginning to be a little discouraged by the responses in this thread.

 

[felinelvr44]

As for the issue of whether US students studying overseas should be getting student loans....

I just don't really see the problem. This is not like it is an entitlement costing taxpayers money.

30 year bonds are issued at around 3-3.5% last few years. We are charging 6.9% (or whatever) interest. You cannot default on these loans. The US government is making out pretty well on these loans. Hell, we should be making as many of these loans as possible

On the other hand, I could see an argument that loan forgiveness might not be afforded to international students, because that is an entitlement, but honestly don't see what the point is, because we are not trying to support US colleges.

IF the problem was in the overseas schools, then I could see trying to discourage students from attending them, but honestly the problem is being caused domestically right now, so that is where the solution has to START (always room to include foreign schools in the discussion, but it should be a corollary to the main solution).

My understanding from the NYTimes article is that this potentially *IS* costing the taxpayers money. From the article:

"The bad news is that the interest on the debt keeps growing and taxes must be paid on the amount discharged, as if it is income. Dr. Schafer sends $400 a month to Sallie Mae, a sum that will rise. But what kind of tax bill awaits her? Asked to run the numbers, GL Advisor, a financial services company that specializes in student loans, calculated that Dr. Schafer's debt is likely to exceed $650,000 when her tax bill lands 25 years after the start of the loan, which means she will owe the Internal Revenue Service roughly $200,000."

So after 25 years of IBR payments, this veterinarian will have to pay $200,000 in taxes for a forgiveness of $650,000. That sounds to me like the taxpayer is on the hook for the other $350,000, no? The government doesn't make out very well if the borrower can't repay the loan and will never have the means to do so.

 

[dyachei]

My understanding from the NYTimes article is that this potentially *IS* costing the taxpayers money. From the article:

"The bad news is that the interest on the debt keeps growing and taxes must be paid on the amount discharged, as if it is income. Dr. Schafer sends $400 a month to Sallie Mae, a sum that will rise. But what kind of tax bill awaits her? Asked to run the numbers, GL Advisor, a financial services company that specializes in student loans, calculated that Dr. Schafer’s debt is likely to exceed $650,000 when her tax bill lands 25 years after the start of the loan, which means she will owe the Internal Revenue Service roughly $200,000."

So after 25 years of IBR payments, this veterinarian will have to pay $200,000 in taxes for a forgiveness of $650,000. That sounds to me like the taxpayer is on the hook for the other $350,000, no? The government doesn't make out very well if the borrower can't repay the loan and will never have the means to do so.

Look at what her loans originally were. Calculate the cost of her monthly payments over 25 years (in this case $120,000 if at $400/month). Then add $200,000. While it may not be the rate of return the government wants, they are making a profit on that vet.

 

[felinelvr44]

Look at what her loans originally were. Calculate the cost of her monthly payments over 25 years (in this case $120,000 if at $400/month). Then add $200,000. While it may not be the rate of return the government wants, they are making a profit on that vet.

$120,000 + $200,000 = $320,000
The amount she borrowed: $312,000

So the government made $8,000 from these loans over 25 years. That is less than the rate of inflation. While personally I don't think the government should be making money from education at all... that is not what I would consider a good profit. Especially if you compare that vet's loan to a loan made to a medical student who presumably will have no trouble paying back the full amount plus interest. Hell, if the government had stuck that $312,000 into a 1% low interest savings account (for arguments sake) at the end of 25 years they would have made an $88,000 profit.

 

[devyn]

No one is more fanatical than those who have recently converted, and no one is more eager to share their cosmopolitan opinions with the rubes back home than those who have recently moved abroad. That goes double for those who moved to Europe.

If there's anything I've learned in years and years of traveling, studying, working, and living abroad, it's that it's wise to give your opinions time to age before foisting them on the people you left at home. Things are almost never as they first appear. It can feel new and exciting to see your home country through the eyes of an outsider, but don't be so quick to disown your homeland and all the people in it. You may hurt people you did not intend to hurt with your careless words.

I'm not attacking you as unpatriotic, trust me. Those who like to think themselves arbiters of American patriotism would dismiss me as "unAmurrcan" on sight, and I can't blame them - I don't think the US is the greatest country on earth, I have serious issues with most of American foreign policy, and my fellow Americans often do things that embarrass and shame me. Nevertheless, despite my misgivings, I would never write off Americans as the type of people who rarely take responsibility for anything. First, it's blatantly untrue, and second, it doesn't further the discussion. People everywhere in all countries struggle to find solutions to their socioeconomic problems, which is what we're addressing in this thread - the difficult situation of American veterinary medicine today. The US hardly has a corner on the bad-times-for-vets market, and it's unhelpful to suggest that we restrict our discussion to solutions that affect only those students that attend US schools. As an expat, you should be aware that no country exists in a vacuum, and since it's American students going abroad with American funding for their international educations, it's only fair that those programs are examined as closely as programs on US soil when addressing the American veterinary problem.

I hope that as you spend more time abroad, your newly-minted international perspective gains greater depth and nuance, and you stop feeling the need to put down those who have not had the opportunity to leave their native countries. About 95% of humanity will never have that luxury. You and I have been extraordinarily lucky indeed to have such wonderful opportunities for travel and growth. Try to be more gracious about it.

I find it a little bit odd that you assume that you know my experience with living overseas and also assume that I have recently moved abroad in your response. I have read a few of your responses in other threads, but have chose not to respond to them because overall they have a tone of condescension which I do not thoroughly enjoy. I am not sure if it is because you are older that you feel the need to talk down to others on this forum as you feel you know more or have more life experience. I do not find it is ever necessary to talk down to anyone who is younger than me as age never indicates a person's life experience or intelligence. BTW I am pretty sure I am older than you, so if we are going by your way of thinking then...

Anyhow, back to the subject, my perspective on the situation is not "newly minted" as you would call it as I have spent a good portion of my life in Europe, living abroad. I did not just move here for vet school. I have quite an informed opinion on life in & outside the US and my perspective on the way the US handles it's affairs has not changed. Every country has it's issues, there is no doubt about that, but I was commenting on the US as that was the topic at hand. I have also not disowned the US either, so do not be so quick to judge. Much of my family and friends still live in the US.

I was sharing my view on the topic we are discussing in this here thread which is oversupply of veterinarians in the US. And I agree with SOV that the solution to the problem has to start in the US with those schools. Once that has been tackled than sure look at the foreign schools and perhaps capping class sizes. But stopping federal funding IMO is not a smart option.

And no offense, but don't tell me what I should be gracious about.... get off your high horse and join the common folk in this forum.....

 

[dyachei]

$120,000 + $200,000 = $320,000
The amount she borrowed: $312,000

So the government made $8,000 from these loans over 25 years. That is less than the rate of inflation. While personally I don't think the government should be making money from education at all... that is not what I would consider a good profit. Especially if you compare that vet's loan to a loan made to a medical student who presumably will have no trouble paying back the full amount plus interest. Hell, if the government had stuck that $312,000 into a 1% low interest savings account (for arguments sake) at the end of 25 years they would have made an $88,000 profit.

that assumes a few things. 1st assumption - that she will only ever make enough to fall into an IBR where she only pays $400 a month. I certainly hope that isn't the case for this vet. Her earning potential should be higher than that with time (even with the crappy job market and tough economy). 2nd - You implied that the government lost money. While the government certainly doesn't make the rate of return of even a 1% interest account, the money is not lost (except for possibly inflation). Not to mention that regardless of that vet's IBR, she still probably pays a high rate of taxes (most vets fall into the top 2 tax brackets). I never said it was a good profit. But they don't lose money on it (unless you count inflation which is really dependent on the amount of loans taken out - I would bet that in most cases, they at least make inflation back).

 

[capirinha]

.

 

[felinelvr44]

Just pointing out - doesn't the monthly payment increase as her salary increases? So I think the $120,000 will be more - assuming she makes more in the next 25 years than as a new grad.

I'd assume it would. I used $120,000 because it's what dyachei originally said.

 

[hygebeorht]

For a lot of the most expensive US schools, the people who had to take out the most loans won't be paying them off and a fair chunk will be forgiven. Although that "gift" is taxed, it sure would help if the tuition had been reasonable in the first place. I understand the logic of the gov't making loans available for those who can't out-of-pocket fund a professional education. I just think that schools have viewed federal aid programs as a blank check, and they've passed the buck to their graduates. (How's that for a mixed metaphor ) I have no idea how to stop this relationship from escalating. If students can borrow up to the COA, no matter how ridiculous that cost is, there's no pressure on the school to be more reasonable. They don't have to price an affordable education because with loans, it's always affordable.

I'm definitely not saying get rid of aid - we should not restrict education to the wealthy only. How do countries do it that have a more reasonable tuition level? I don't know much about international institutions and how they do business except for some of the Caribbean schools. Int'l people, are your schools well-supported by the gov't or how is it that these schools aren't gouging their students like American schools?

 

[psilovethomas]

For a lot of the most expensive US schools, the people who had to take out the most loans won't be paying them off and a fair chunk will be forgiven. Although that "gift" is taxed, it sure would help if the tuition had been reasonable in the first place. I understand the logic of the gov't making loans available for those who can't out-of-pocket fund a professional education. I just think that schools have viewed federal aid programs as a blank check, and they've passed the buck to their graduates. (How's that for a mixed metaphor ) I have no idea how to stop this relationship from escalating. If students can borrow up to the COA, no matter how ridiculous that cost is, there's no pressure on the school to be more reasonable. They don't have to price an affordable education because with loans, it's always affordable.

I'm definitely not saying get rid of aid - we should not restrict education to the wealthy only. How do countries do it that have a more reasonable tuition level? I don't know much about international institutions and how they do business except for some of the Caribbean schools. Int'l people, are your schools well-supported by the gov't or how is it that these schools aren't gouging their students like American schools?

Well, in Germany, I know that it is very difficult to be accepted to professional program, or even to go to college, and it is an honor to go to high school to grade 13 (Gymnasium) (PP is probably more up to date with this than I am, but this is what my young cousin in Germany tells me). So, I guess they keep down costs by allowing only a select number of people to enter college and professional school. I believe they also pay a lot more taxes than we do in the US, which I assume a chunk of goes to education. Also, veterinary school in other countries is 5-6 years total, as opposed to the US is 8 years.

 

[Escalla]

For a lot of the most expensive US schools, the people who had to take out the most loans won't be paying them off and a fair chunk will be forgiven. Although that "gift" is taxed, it sure would help if the tuition had been reasonable in the first place. I understand the logic of the gov't making loans available for those who can't out-of-pocket fund a professional education. I just think that schools have viewed federal aid programs as a blank check, and they've passed the buck to their graduates. (How's that for a mixed metaphor ) I have no idea how to stop this relationship from escalating. If students can borrow up to the COA, no matter how ridiculous that cost is, there's no pressure on the school to be more reasonable. They don't have to price an affordable education because with loans, it's always affordable.

I'm definitely not saying get rid of aid - we should not restrict education to the wealthy only. How do countries do it that have a more reasonable tuition level? I don't know much about international institutions and how they do business except for some of the Caribbean schools. Int'l people, are your schools well-supported by the gov't or how is it that these schools aren't gouging their students like American schools?

In Canada, our tuition is very reasonable due to government support ($7-10K/yr). However, since the provincial governments are supporting each seat, you can only apply for the seats allotted to your province (and therefore only attend your "assigned" school).

AVC (Atlantic provinces)
University of Montreal (Quebec)
OVC (Ontario)
WCVM (Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, BC, Yukon, NWT)
UCVM (Alberta)

Since tuition is pretty cheap, there are limited aid options (You can't borrow up to COA). But someone else will have to chime in with regards to loans as I haven't ever borrowed and won't be in the future.

 

[Coquette22]

Int'l people, are your schools well-supported by the gov't or how is it that these schools aren't gouging their students like American schools?

I've been following this thread but haven't commented (don't feel I know enough about the American situation to comment). I can answer this though. AVC is heavily subsidized by the four Atlantic provincial governments, I think the other schools in Canada are subsidized by their provinces as well. Example - Nova Scotia figures it needs 16 new vets a year, So it pays to subsidize 16 new vets a year and that's how much money the Nova Scotia government pays to AVC. I don't think the number of seats has changed much since the school opened in 1986 either.

Re: loans. Government loans are capped. It varies a bit province to province (the majority of the loan comes from the federal government, the rest from provincial). The most I can get between federal and provincial grants and loans is about $14,500. My tuition is $11,500 (give or take a bit), Luckily, my parents can fill in the gaps, and I work and try to get scholarships/bursaries wherever I can. Some students have a line of credit, I can't get one due to my family being pretty darn working class meaning I don't have an adequate co-signer.

 

[nyanko]

I completely agree. Not to mention that a lot of people go there because they COULD NOT get into a US school. I know some pretty lazy unmotivated people who are in the caribbean right now going to vet school. Its frustrating when I sacrificed everything in undergrad and worked my butt off to get into vet school thinking that I will be a better candidate for a DVM then the dude who was too drunk to go to class. Now drunkie frat dude is competing with me for jobs. I am not saying this is the case all the time, but it seems like anyone can get into vet school nowadays because of the caribbean schools and it makes the quality of applicants go down.

Hey by the way this is one of the most FOS posts I've ever read on this forum. If 'drunkie frat dude' is competing with you for jobs, that means he finished a curriculum just as demanding and difficult as yours, and passed the same licensing exam. So guess what - whatever he did before vet school DOES NOT MATTER. You're just butthurt because he had more fun than you.

And talk about arrogant...

Yes well you will never understand a different perspective on the US if you have never lived outside the US - and that is all I will say on that topic.

Come oNNNN you guys are better than BS like this.

 

[KCgophervet]

Would it ever be a feasible idea for the federal government to just cap the number of education loans it gives out per year to US students? I have no idea what actual numbers would be, but if the government would only give out say 1000 full COA loans out per year, foreign or domestic, would that begin to curb the high numbers of incoming students/graduates, force schools to cap class sizes, reduce the massive number of influx, etc? I guess I feel like that could be an option, unless it just makes it so the seats go to those who can afford to pay the tuition out of pocket. I don't think the high supply, low demand issue of vets is one that is solely a foreign or domestic issue, and I don't think we can choose one and try to fix it there and ignore the other.

Also, this is the article I was referring to about assuming good intent. I don't think anyone here really is trying to put down anyone else, belittle their opinions, experiences, or beliefs, I truly believe that it is just harder to communicate via text as opposed to discussing things in person. Sometimes nuances are lost or you inadvertently word things in a way that you didn't intend to.

 

[primatevetjess]

Hey by the way this is one of the most FOS posts I've ever read on this forum. If 'drunkie frat dude' is competing with you for jobs, that means he finished a curriculum just as demanding and difficult as yours, and passed the same licensing exam. So guess what - whatever he did before vet school DOES NOT MATTER. You're just butthurt because he had more fun than you.

I couldn't agree more. All of you with an elitist attitude because you go to school in the US vs. the Caribbean are infuriating. You do realize that amazing and well qualified applicants are rejected every year, right? There are WAY more qualified applicants than there are available seats in the US, and if those people chose to apply to the Caribbean for a better chance, good for them. Also, they receive an equivalent education and take the exact same licensing exam as you do. It's complete BS to think you're better just because you got into a US school.

Do less than stellar vets come from the Caribbean schools? You betcha. But the same could be said for every US school. The most incompetent vet I ever worked for graduated from UC Davis (and I've worked for/with many vets that graduated from the Caribbean schools), but it did not make me think UC Davis is a crappy school and it didn't persuade me to not attend.

 

[dyachei]

I don't think capping loans to cap students is going to do what people think it will. If you're a business and you have to turn a profit by making x amount of money, if you have y (IS students) and z (OOS students) where z>y, it drives up the number of OOS seats (especially if you cap the total number of students) or drives up the cost of tuition per student.

 

[DVMDream]

I couldn't agree more. All of you with an elitist attitude because you go to school in the US vs. the Caribbean are infuriating. You do realize that amazing and well qualified applicants are rejected every year, right? There are WAY more qualified applicants than there are available seats in the US, and if those people chose to apply to the Caribbean for a better chance, good for them. Also, they receive an equivalent education and take the exact same licensing exam as you do. It's complete BS to think you're better just because you got into a US school.

Do less than stellar vets come from the Caribbean schools? You betcha. But the same could be said for every US school. The most incompetent vet I ever worked for graduated from UC Davis (and I've worked for/with many vets that graduated from the Caribbean schools), but it did not make me think UC Davis is a crappy school and it didn't persuade me to not attend.

I have worked with a few incompetent or not very decent vets: 1 from the Caribbean, 1 from CSU and 1 from Mississippi State.... it is just like every other profession... you will have some not good people that can sneak in, but that is not due to the school that they went to that is (usually) due to how they choose to practice medicine or conduct themselves. I have also worked with amazing vets from the Caribbean and CSU so... it is not limited to the Caribbean schools....

If someone is smart enough to get through vet school applications, be accepted, get through vet school, pass the NAVLE, and pass whatever state boards... then they are smart enough to be a vet, but that does not mean that they will use what they learned in vet school to practice good medicine... most of them do, but you will always have a few bad eggs in the basket whether that basket is vet med or another profession.

 

[Must Love Dogs]

I couldn't agree more. All of you with an elitist attitude because you go to school in the US vs. the Caribbean are infuriating. You do realize that amazing and well qualified applicants are rejected every year, right? There are WAY more qualified applicants than there are available seats in the US, and if those people chose to apply to the Caribbean for a better chance, good for them. Also, they receive an equivalent education and take the exact same licensing exam as you do. It's complete BS to think you're better just because you got into a US school.

Do less than stellar vets come from the Caribbean schools? You betcha. But the same could be said for every US school. The most incompetent vet I ever worked for graduated from UC Davis (and I've worked for/with many vets that graduated from the Caribbean schools), but it did not make me think UC Davis is a crappy school and it didn't persuade me to not attend.

Agree 100%....Judt because someone graduates from a specific school or a "top" program doesn't guarantee success! A program will prepare you for the field, yes, but a lot of your success also depends on who you are as a person and the decisions you make as to how to use your training after you graduate, not just where you went to school (hope that made sense).

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I couldn't agree more. All of you with an elitist attitude because you go to school in the US vs. the Caribbean are infuriating. You do realize that amazing and well qualified applicants are rejected every year, right? There are WAY more qualified applicants than there are available seats in the US, and if those people chose to apply to the Caribbean for a better chance, good for them. Also, they receive an equivalent education and take the exact same licensing exam as you do. It's complete BS to think you're better just because you got into a US school.

Do less than stellar vets come from the Caribbean schools? You betcha. But the same could be said for every US school. The most incompetent vet I ever worked for graduated from UC Davis (and I've worked for/with many vets that graduated from the Caribbean schools), but it did not make me think UC Davis is a crappy school and it didn't persuade me to not attend.

Very well said.

Such generalizations are idiotic.

Just because you personally knew a few applicants, either yourself or through friends, who....

a) had personalities you didn't like (or considered immature) and
b) somehow you knew them well enough to know all about their grades, their experience, their application, etc, and
c)you take it upon yourself to say that they are underqualified, with your (likely) limited knowledge of their application and qualifications (other than perhaps hearing that they had lower grades than you or the fact that they liked to go out partying more). Since when did YOU become an adcom?

....does NOT give you the right to assume that the majority (or even a large number) of people that go to such schools are underqualified.

I have been impressed by every Caribbean student who has come to rotate here.

 

[hygebeorht]

Well, wherever you go, it's the education you give yourself that counts. If you're a lazy student, the "best" school in the world won't help you.

So international schools cap the number of students they'll support in one way or another. I'm very envious of those whose language skills are up to handling a professional curriculum in another language. My Spanish is pretty dang good but I'd be terrified of say, going to Mexico for my education. Though I considered it for about 20 minutes when I was crunching numbers.

As for Canadian schools, I can see why they don't offer much aid beyond tuition etc. - even if you were paying tuition out of pocket, it's not as onerous a burden as most US schools. Even so, if I didn't have relatives to support me or help me get loans and I went to Canada, it would be rough.

 

[justavet]

Do you have data supporting this? I agree that there are theoretically additional job markets. But how many people actually take advantage of it? And how easy is it for a US citizen (even if they are licensed to work elsewhere) to get a work visa and get hired in the EU or Australia without further post-DVM training straight out of vet school? I'm sure there are people who do it, but is it an easy viable option for any average joe US national studying abroad? I personally have no idea how it is when it comes to people with professional degrees, but I was under the impression that the EU especially has a pretty hefty barrier of entry into their job market for foreigners.

What data do you have that makes you say students who go abroad are more likely to be employed? I'm super curious about this one, since we (as in a general we) can't even seem to agree on employment rates of veterinarians in general

Also... how do the Caribbean schools open additional job markets or ease US labor oversupply?

I'm personally not opposed to international vet schools, but I'm not sure I buy your reasoning.

(CB=Caribbean, CN=Canadian, EU=European Union, AU= Australia, NZ=New Zealand, US=United States)

Several components to this answer:
How many people take advantage of the additional job markets? I have anecdotal evidence- which tells me where to start looking but is not conclusive- and I have some publicly available objective evidence from which I can make limited inference. Good numbers exist but are not public, of course.

And the question then becomes... what's a meaningful way to measure how many? in head count terms? percentage terms? percentage of those attending non-resident (overseas schools incl. CB ones can be a much cheaper option for those paying non-res) percentage of those going to that region ie CB, EU, AU/NZ?

TBH, I consider the CB schools to be, functionally, US schools. The overwhelming majority of their students are US citizens who go there for school and come back here to practice- and it's always been that way.The overwhelming majority of the revenue they take in is US student loan money (federal, at the accredited schools of Ross and St George's). A significant proportion of their faculty and administration are from the US.

This is very different than the EU/AU/NZ programs. CB schools do nothing to ease pressure on the US veterinary labor market, nor do they worsen it any more than they ever have, or much more than the large US schools- want to freak about Ross at 287? How about OSU at 162, ISU at 146, CSU at 140, UC Davis at 133, TAMU at 132... and all growing. As several posters have commented, this won't fix by manipulating just non US programs.

As far as barriers to job entry, it really depends country to country, as different countries take very different approaches to managing supply. Germany has come up a few times, they do have strong central planning and a very tightly controlled market in which entry is controlled by controlling seats. As noted, in CN each province manages supply by funding only as any seats as it projects need for vets (all you CNs put there- is there a requirement that you return to your funding province?). That is the model the individual US states used to fund veterinary programs for a long time, with contracts like SREB and WICHE providing access for states w/o a program. Interestingly, I can't tell that any one of these models has managed supply any better than any other- there's too many vets in Germany same as CN same as US same as AU. The degree of oversupply varies... but China is the only country I know of that actually needs more vets, and that's not because the population is growing in numbers but because the population is growing in wealth- economics supports the growth of demand for veterinary services in both the pet and ag markets.

Eh, that turned into a dissertation. DId I answer the question?!?