NYC programs

[jam]

any thoughts on nyc programs? specifically, how is cornell with new program director, debra leonard from penn?

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[pathstudent]

Regarding the 4 in Manhattan: Though they don't have the status of Stanford, JHU etc...they are all good and have famous (well, famous for dorky pathologists) people in some areas. Plus you get to live in NYC for a few years, so that should make up for any soft spots they might have.

 

[pathdoc68]

Regarding the 4 in Manhattan: Though they don't have the status of Stanford, JHU etc...they are all good and have famous (well, famous for dorky pathologists) people in some areas. Plus you get to live in NYC for a few years, so that should make up for any soft spots they might have.

As someone who lived in NYC for his entire pre-pathology life, I can surely say the best decision I made was to get out of that place. I left 9 years ago and never looked back. I would really question the idea of getting to live in NYC for a few years as a bonus. But...to each his own.

 

[LADoc00]

any thoughts on nyc programs? specifically, how is cornell with new program director, debra leonard from penn?

Who? hahaha. She added to their already heavily molpath slant.

Cornell invested HEAVILY in pathology going molecular and guess what...they bet wrong at least for the forseeable future and maybe forever due to cost reasons (dem glass slides are cheap even for po' folks!) and oversimplification of life as 1 gene/gene set-->1 disease.

Molecular is waste, let me say it now, a waste as a skill set because it is all run by techs in commercial labs anyway. Aside from landing some pitiful cushy academic molpath gig, what the hell are you gonna do with it?...ooo let me guess research, yipeee (9 dollahs an hour, cha ching!)

Aside from that, a resident who buys a piece of investment property in Bareback, Texas or Iowa will definitely own the slob who blows his/her load on rent for 4-5 years in NYC in terms of the long run. This is all 20/20 hindsight now as I was once that slob and am now diploma rich, yet property poor. Im planning to hobble together some Ivy league diplomas to provide a rudimentary shelter from this oppressive heat tonight.

There must be some pathology version of "Rich Dad, Poor Dad"...I believe the "poor dad" in that book is the Stanford grad and the rich dad is the community college guy...

 

[DW]

As someone who lived in NYC for his entire pre-pathology life, I can surely say the best decision I made was to get out of that place. I left 9 years ago and never looked back. I would really question the idea of getting to live in NYC for a few years as a bonus. But...to each his own.

Haha, I live in NYC and I have to agree. I'm hopefully staying in the area for residency because my fiance makes bank and NYC is the best market for her job, but if you're not independently wealthy nor have a working spouse, I think there are much easier places to live on a residents salary.

 

[Matte Kudesai]

Haha, I live in NYC and I have to agree. I'm hopefully staying in the area for residency because my fiance makes bank and NYC is the best market for her job, but if you're not independently wealthy nor have a working spouse, I think there are much easier places to live on a residents salary.

How does Cornell get away with paying residents 46K a year to live in NYC?

http://www.cornellpathology.org/med_edu_res_spe.html?name1=Residency+Specifics&type1=2Active

 

[DW]

Well, the housing is pretty cheap by nyc standards. Most residents pay around 1000 for a studio and 1200 for a one bed (the housing is pretty nice actually), without the hassle of broker fees and other crappy parts of NYC real estate. Also, one expense that is actually lower for the average resident in NYC is transit expenses. The hospital is literally right across the street from resident housing, no need for a car/gas/insurance/etc, just your occasional 4 dollar roundtrip metrocard trip. So with that in mind, it is manageable. I think the NYU pgy-1 salary is 49K, but they don't have resident housing and you have to get a market rate apt somewhere.

I do think its possible to survive financially on a residents salary here, but a lot of my friends who are house staff at nyc hospitals find it tough.

How does Cornell get away with paying residents 46K a year to live in NYC?

http://www.cornellpathology.org/med_edu_res_spe.html?name1=Residency+Specifics&type1=2Active

 

[ddx]

yuk. nyc is one big dirty city. no room for dumpsters so piles of trash bags just sit on the sidewalk. you burn your hard earned dollars on a shoebox of an apartment. not only do you have state tax, but you have city tax too. if you don't live right next to a subway station, it takes forever and a day just to travel 10 miles. yeah there's a lot of fun stuff to do, but just think-- you can visit nyc twice a month on the money you can save by not living there. not worth it. invest wisely- live somewhere cheap and buy property- and you'll be able to travel to much nicer places than nyc.

 

[lipstick]

Who? hahaha. She added to their already heavily molpath slant.

Cornell invested HEAVILY in pathology going molecular and guess what...they bet wrong at least for the forseeable future and maybe forever due to cost reasons (dem glass slides are cheap even for po' folks!) and oversimplification of life as 1 gene/gene set-->1 disease.

Molecular is waste, let me say it now, a waste as a skill set because it is all run by techs in commercial labs anyway. Aside from landing some pitiful cushy academic molpath gig, what the hell are you gonna do with it?...ooo let me guess research, yipeee (9 dollahs an hour, cha ching!)

Aside from that, a resident who buys a piece of investment property in Bareback, Texas or Iowa will definitely own the slob who blows his/her load on rent for 4-5 years in NYC in terms of the long run. This is all 20/20 hindsight now as I was once that slob and am now diploma rich, yet property poor. Im planning to hobble together some Ivy league diplomas to provide a rudimentary shelter from this oppressive heat tonight.

There must be some pathology version of "Rich Dad, Poor Dad"...I believe the "poor dad" in that book is the Stanford grad and the rich dad is the community college guy...

your talk on mol diagnostics is downright scary- i hope to god you're wrong.

 

[LADoc00]

your talk on mol diagnostics is downright scary- i hope to god you're wrong.

EH? nothing scary about it. It will take you 2 days on any mol path rotation to realize the attendings do nothing more than reading Ig heavy chain/TCR gene rearrangements (aka clonality studies) and adminster the technical employees who actually run the gels, PCR etc. I have been in the 2 most busy academic mol path labs on the East and West Coast and we are talking about 20 minutes of real work each day, in fact I heard mol path was the basis for a sequel to the cult flick Office Space:

 

[SaltySqueegee]

EH? nothing scary about it. It will take you 2 days on any mol path rotation to realize the attendings do nothing more than reading Ig heavy chain/TCR gene rearrangements (aka clonality studies) and adminster the technical employees who actually run the gels, PCR etc. I have been in the 2 most busy academic mol path labs on the East and West Coast and we are talking about 20 minutes of real work each day, in fact I heard mol path was the basis for a sequel to the cult flick Office Space:

So... you're saying there is a chance then...?

 

[jam]

EH? nothing scary about it. It will take you 2 days on any mol path rotation to realize the attendings do nothing more than reading Ig heavy chain/TCR gene rearrangements (aka clonality studies) and adminster the technical employees who actually run the gels, PCR etc. I have been in the 2 most busy academic mol path labs on the East and West Coast and we are talking about 20 minutes of real work each day, in fact I heard mol path was the basis for a sequel to the cult flick Office Space:

Ah huh...and so your views on doing a WHOLE YEAR of molecular path would be?

have heard that some programs are requiring it for their "core" curriculum in CP now.

 

[rirriri]

have heard that some programs are requiring it for their "core" curriculum in CP now.

such is definitely the case....as it is at my program.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

Speaking of NYC, I'll be doing a 4 week surg path rotation at MSKCC and am in need of a place to live. www.craigslist.org (normally a sure fire thing) hasn't really helped as all I can find is the $200/night or $4k/mo sublet. If you know of anyone with a place/room available that is reasonable (~$1500) from like 8/25-9-22 I'd be eternally grateful.

Well, the housing is pretty cheap by nyc standards. Most residents pay around 1000 for a studio and 1200 for a one bed (the housing is pretty nice actually), without the hassle of broker fees and other crappy parts of NYC real estate. Also, one expense that is actually lower for the average resident in NYC is transit expenses. The hospital is literally right across the street from resident housing, no need for a car/gas/insurance/etc, just your occasional 4 dollar roundtrip metrocard trip. So with that in mind, it is manageable. I think the NYU pgy-1 salary is 49K, but they don't have resident housing and you have to get a market rate apt somewhere.

I do think its possible to survive financially on a residents salary here, but a lot of my friends who are house staff at nyc hospitals find it tough.

 

[djmd]

Speaking of NYC, I'll be doing a 4 week surg path rotation at MSKCC and am in need of a place to live. www.craigslist.org (normally a sure fire thing) hasn't really helped as all I can find is the $200/night or $4k/mo sublet. If you know of anyone with a place/room available that is reasonable (~$1500) from like 8/25-9-22 I'd be eternally grateful.

Good luck.
You are going to need it...

Did you look in Craigslist for room-mates wanted? You might find a room to sublet for that price...

 

[pathologictruth]

any thoughts on nyc programs? specifically, how is cornell with new program director, debra leonard from penn?

what you probably should know about cornell

1. regarding the question about the new program director:
on a personal level, she doesn't not compare to the old one (amy chadburn) who was much better. many people think dr leonard is cold and unfriendly--maybe that's why she left or was forced to leave penn. she doesn't get along with anyone, residents or faculty. true, she is author of a book on molecular pathology, but she isn't cp boarded and rumor has it that she had to sit twice for the ap boards. if you're asking why she is vice-chair of clinical path and residency program director, rest assured, you're not the only one. compassionate, yeah right. all in all, my impression is that the residents can't wait for the chairman to displace her but are too afraid of her to say something.

*edited*

3. all in all, the atmosphere in surgical path is very negative, especially when you're a first year. everyone is always bitching about everything. the PA, technical, and ancillary support staff are all miserable people. there are some good pathologists nonetheless, but be warned, the number of X chromosomes to Y chromosomes is very very very high. less piss on the seats i guess, but be prepared for some a level of gossip that would put 90210 to shame. it's so much worse than high school. we should get aaron spelling to film the department. the show would never bottom out.

4. the cp teaching is abominable. nonetheless, most residents (well, the ones that haven't dropped CP after the first twenty lectures on statistics) seek refuge there to escape the drama on the 10th floor. there are very few MDs. cp call consists largely of being informed that a patient is about to get his 3rd or 4th dose of platelets. very educational, especially when it happens at 4 am. the hematology and chemistry training is good, but if you think you will have a chance in hell of passing the cp boards after training at cornell, you are very wrong. happy reading.

that's it for now. to be continued

 

[jam]

Ouch. had heard something along those lines...

 

[LADoc00]

what you probably should know about cornell

1. regarding the question about the new program director:
on a personal level, she doesn't not compare to the old one (amy chadburn) who was much better. many people think dr leonard is cold and unfriendly--maybe that's why she left or was forced to leave penn. she doesn't get along with anyone, residents or faculty. true, she is author of a book on molecular pathology, but she isn't cp boarded and rumor has it that she had to sit twice for the ap boards. if you're asking why she is vice-chair of clinical path and residency program director, rest assured, you're not the only one. (edited) compassionate, yeah right. all in all, my impression is that the residents can't wait for the chairman to displace her but are too afraid of her to say something.

*edited*

3. all in all, the atmosphere in surgical path is very negative, especially when you're a first year. everyone is always bitching about everything. the PA, technical, and ancillary support staff are all miserable people. there are some good pathologists nonetheless, but be warned, the number of X chromosomes to Y chromosomes is very very very high. less piss on the seats i guess, but be prepared for some a level of gossip that would put 90210 to shame. it's so much worse than high school. we should get aaron spelling to film the department. the show would never bottom out.

4. the cp teaching is abominable. nonetheless, most residents (well, the ones that haven't dropped CP after the first twenty lectures on statistics) seek refuge there to escape the drama on the 10th floor. there are very few MDs. cp call consists largely of being informed that a patient is about to get his 3rd or 4th dose of platelets. very educational, especially when it happens at 4 am. the hematology and chemistry training is good, but if you think you will have a chance in hell of passing the cp boards after training at cornell, you are very wrong. happy reading.

that's it for now. to be continued

Hahahaahahahahah she is a mol path attending and didnt do CP? WTF.

Im calling it, Cornell and Mayo get the big LADOC: N-E-X-T.

Where did you get all that..and who are you? Keep it coming! You are my new favorite poster.

 

[CameronFrye]

Hahahaahahahahah she is a mol path attending and didnt do CP? WTF.

Im calling it, Cornell and Mayo get the big LADOC: N-E-X-T.

Where did you get all that..and who are you? Keep it coming! You are my new favorite poster.

I thought for a second that you had become bored with the LADOC persona and had created a new one.

 

[LADoc00]

I thought for a second that you had become bored with the LADOC persona and had created a new one.

Yeah I read that and thought I had a split personality for a sec...luckily its not me. Ive been bagging on Cornell for years, now I actually have a reason!

What a great day! I actually signed out work for 2 other absent pathologists and my own and still had time to cut 4 frozens, drink 5 cups of coffee, read the Wall Street Journal and post here!!

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Speaking of the new PD though, I met with her during my interview there. She told me that she was only AP boarded. She told me that being AP only was not the wise thing to do and told me that I should discuss the matter with her if in the future if I still had the conviction to pursue the AP only track. I dismissed it.

We had a good interview. I didn't think she was a cold person. But again, I only talked to her for half an hour.

And I can't comment as to if her previous political situation at Penn. I have no clue about that as I'm not in the know-how when it comes to gossip in the field.

What happened to dermpath at Cornell though? I have heard a little about that. Involves some person from Ohio State. What's going on there?

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Where did you get all that..and who are you? Keep it coming! You are my new favorite poster.

I second that. One piece of advice...maintain your anonymity. Then you can say whatever the hell you want.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

Good luck.
You are going to need it...

Did you look in Craigslist for room-mates wanted? You might find a room to sublet for that price...

Uh... did you even read my post? Yeah I looked. There isn't **** there.

 

[yaah]

The above posts were edited due to requests. Please do not provide identifying info that is potentially personally harmful to individuals that may not be able to defend themselves. Even if you do not name names, when you describe enough to figure out who the person is, it has the same effect. I apologize if people object to my editing your posts - but you are free to edit them to something that flows better or conveys a message similarly, just avoid the specifics please.

 

[djmd]

Uh... did you even read my post? Yeah I looked. There isn't **** there.

Wanted to make sure you weren't just trying for Sublets, but actually roommate wanted too...
Who knows, you may have thought you could get a whole 1BR for $1500...

 

[DW]

Speaking of the new PD though, I met with her during my interview there. She told me that she was only AP boarded. She told me that being AP only was not the wise thing to do and told me that I should discuss the matter with her if in the future if I still had the conviction to pursue the AP only track. I dismissed it.

We had a good interview. I didn't think she was a cold person. But again, I only talked to her for half an hour.

And I can't comment as to if her previous political situation at Penn. I have no clue about that as I'm not in the know-how when it comes to gossip in the field.

What happened to dermpath at Cornell though? I have heard a little about that. Involves some person from Ohio State. What's going on there?

I don't know much about the inner workings of the program either, but I've talked with Dr. Leonard before. She was really nice to me at least, but people might have had their own experiences.

Yeah, there is a new dermpath attending, Dr.Magro, who was on the faculty at OSU before. They are currently renovating the dermpath area right now so its in a period of transition.

 

[LADoc00]

.

Yeah, there is a new dermpath attending, Dr.Magro, who was on the faculty at OSU before. They are currently renovating the dermpath area right now so its in a period of transition.

I have it on good authority (very good authority in fact) that the hiring of Magro was a large suprise to everyone, including the now retired famous Dermpath guy there McNutt. This created so much conflict in the force that it resulted in the current dermpath fellow slotted to begin earlier this month to leave...when that happens, you know the **** has hit the fan.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I have it on good authority (very good authority in fact) that the hiring of Magro was a large suprise to everyone, including the now retired famous Dermpath guy there McNutt. This created so much conflict in the force that it resulted in the current dermpath fellow slotted to begin earlier this month to leave...when that happens, you know the **** has hit the fan.

How do you know this?

and yaah, I agree that we shouldn't make references to people by name especially on this board. you were right to edit out that info.

 

[deschutes]

but if you think you will have a chance in hell of passing the cp boards after training at cornell, you are very wrong.

Thing is, it seems like the vast majority feels that way about CP boards.

The June 2005 exam exit survey asked:

"Did your pathology training adequately prepare you for this examination?"

Anatomic Pathology
Yes – 421
No – 113

Clinical Pathology
Yes – 225
No - 226

 

[ivorytower]

Speaking of the new PD though, I met with her during my interview there. She told me that she was only AP boarded. She told me that being AP only was not the wise thing to do and told me that I should discuss the matter with her if in the future if I still had the conviction to pursue the AP only track. I dismissed it.

Speaking of the new PD though, I met with her during my interview there. She told me that she was only AP boarded. She told me that being AP only was not the wise thing to do and told me that I should discuss the matter with her if in the future if I still had the conviction to pursue the AP only track. I dismissed it.

I think I would disagree with that statement. APCP is, of course, the safest bet and CP only is the riskiest. However, if you have any idea what you want to be doing in the future, there are options
1. For those interested in academics, there are very few places that require AP and CP--most residents know whether they are "academically minded" early on, so continuing on in AP when you really want to run a blood bank could be viewed as a waste of time, just like CP might be if you wanted to be a breast pathologist. (By the way, when I say "academic", the term is a loose one. Many many people in academic centers don't publish anything, they just like the environment and love to teach. In fact, if you look at the CVs of the faculty at many hospitals with residency programs, fewer than 1/3 have more than 20-30 publications, many of which are case reports, middle authors, etc)

2. The model for private practice is also changing. Although many hospitals still have the small group model of a handful of pathologists that do general surg path and CP, the trend is toward groups that are getting bigger and bigger (>30 members) and covering multiple hospitals. In that setting, subspecialty expertise trumps CP. Often, those groups have a core of people who cover CP and others who handle frozen sections, subspecialty stuff, etc. On the other hand, there are big private labs that pump out the biopsies with a nice little picture on the report for customer satisfaction. While not appealing to some people (and sadly, sometimes the picture isn't even the lesion), this situation has the upside of ZERO call and ZERO autopsies. The salaries are outrageous in these groups too.. starting out over 300K for subspecialists. Finally, the dermatologists and gastroenterologists are catching on to the fact that they can not only save money, but make money, by opening up their own histo labs, hiring a pathologist, and doing their own path. Once a group foots the bill for an outpatient endoscopy center, a histotech, tissue processor, and a secretary add up to a drop in the bucket. Again, no call, regular work hours. The job market for subspecialty people in these areas is out of control. As a fellowship director, I get 3-4 calls/week about open positions. there just aren't enough subspecialists out there to meet the clinical demand. The market is so strong in fact, that some very well known academics (AP only) have cut bait and gone into the private sector.

So, I think that the US may finally be evolving to what the Canadians and Europeans already know. AP and CP are so disparate, they really shouldn't even be part of the same training program. The problem is that many people who don't even like one or the other do both for fear of job security.

 

[pathstudent]

Speaking of the new PD though, I met with her during my interview there. She told me that she was only AP boarded. She told me that being AP only was not the wise thing to do and told me that I should discuss the matter with her if in the future if I still had the conviction to pursue the AP only track. I dismissed it.

Speaking of the new PD though, I met with her during my interview there. She told me that she was only AP boarded. She told me that being AP only was not the wise thing to do and told me that I should discuss the matter with her if in the future if I still had the conviction to pursue the AP only track. I dismissed it.

I think I would disagree with that statement. APCP is, of course, the safest bet and CP only is the riskiest. However, if you have any idea what you want to be doing in the future, there are options
1. For those interested in academics, there are very few places that require AP and CP--most residents know whether they are "academically minded" early on, so continuing on in AP when you really want to run a blood bank could be viewed as a waste of time, just like CP might be if you wanted to be a breast pathologist. (By the way, when I say "academic", the term is a loose one. Many many people in academic centers don't publish anything, they just like the environment and love to teach. In fact, if you look at the CVs of the faculty at many hospitals with residency programs, fewer than 1/3 have more than 20-30 publications, many of which are case reports, middle authors, etc)

2. The model for private practice is also changing. Although many hospitals still have the small group model of a handful of pathologists that do general surg path and CP, the trend is toward groups that are getting bigger and bigger (>30 members) and covering multiple hospitals. In that setting, subspecialty expertise trumps CP. Often, those groups have a core of people who cover CP and others who handle frozen sections, subspecialty stuff, etc. On the other hand, there are big private labs that pump out the biopsies with a nice little picture on the report for customer satisfaction. While not appealing to some people (and sadly, sometimes the picture isn't even the lesion), this situation has the upside of ZERO call and ZERO autopsies. The salaries are outrageous in these groups too.. starting out over 300K for subspecialists. Finally, the dermatologists and gastroenterologists are catching on to the fact that they can not only save money, but make money, by opening up their own histo labs, hiring a pathologist, and doing their own path. Once a group foots the bill for an outpatient endoscopy center, a histotech, tissue processor, and a secretary add up to a drop in the bucket. Again, no call, regular work hours. The job market for subspecialty people in these areas is out of control. As a fellowship director, I get 3-4 calls/week about open positions. there just aren't enough subspecialists out there to meet the clinical demand. The market is so strong in fact, that some very well known academics (AP only) have cut bait and gone into the private sector.

So, I think that the US may finally be evolving to what the Canadians and Europeans already know. AP and CP are so disparate, they really shouldn't even be part of the same training program. The problem is that many people who don't even like one or the other do both for fear of job security.

^That's pretty sad. So now GI groups are opening their own AP labs and hiring pathologists? I imagine they are taking a cut out of this. We need to say "**** off" to these people. Pathologists are becoming everyone's bitch.

 

[ivorytower]

^That's pretty sad. So now GI groups are opening their own AP labs and hiring pathologists? I imagine they are taking a cut out of this. We need to say "**** off" to these people. Pathologists are becoming everyone's bitch.[/QUOTE]


nope, I don't think the situation is that they are hiring a bunch of path lackeys...hospitals have always gotten the lion's share of what pathologists (and every other physician, for that matter) earn, so the idea of getting a salary that is less than your profit isn't new. For example, my chairman used to go over our Profit and Losses statement with us annually (what we earned versus what we cost). Each pathologist billed between 700k and 1 million, but nobody made near that much (starting salary now about 120k). And have you ever checked out the real estate most path departments have in hospitals? not too many panoramic views of the river. usually dinky offices with few windows....
This kind of situation may be an opportunity for pathologists to get a bit more credit than usual. for example, I have two dermpath friends who have joined dermatologist groups and been offered partnerships...i wouldn't consider them to be "bitches" --smart maybe.

 

[djmd]

Finally, the dermatologists and gastroenterologists are catching on to the fact that they can not only save money, but make money, by opening up their own histo labs, hiring a pathologist, and doing their own path. Once a group foots the bill for an outpatient endoscopy center, a histotech, tissue processor, and a secretary add up to a drop in the bucket. Again, no call, regular work hours. The job market for subspecialty people in these areas is out of control.

This model of GIs or Urology or whomever having their own Pathologist needs to be quashed. I understand the market factors, (it is the same factors that make the large biopsy only referal labs work...) but it is not really a good system. At least not for things outside of Derm.

The arguements against it are the same against the large biopsy referal labs, lack of connection between the pathologist reviewing your biopsies and your surgicals. Plus most hospitals still want frozens, not to mention Lab testing...

And for the pathologist working there, you have no actual colleagues, so you are on your own...


To use an example, I heard about a GI group that did this and had a hard time finding someone, but eventually got this started.
Then a colon came out on a patient with I biopsy called AdenoCA.
The colon had some TA polps but no CA. The biospy slides were reviewed by the hospital and no CA was seen. And the GI's pathologist had call a lot of cases CA, many of which were just TA.
I know it is just one case...

It is really a bad idea for pathologist to be view as some techinician by other fields...

 

[earthworm]

um.... that's what most businesses do. what's the difference between this and any other job? whoever hires you takes a cut, whether you're working for a GI doc, a CEO or another pathologist. unless you're a partner, you make money for someone else.

 

[djmd]

um.... that's what most businesses do. what's the difference between this and any other job? whoever hires you takes a cut, whether you're working for a GI doc, a CEO or another pathologist. unless you're a partner, you make money for someone else.

Wow thanks for the insight.

And not it is not different from not being partner, or being a path lab, in the sense that someone else is just paying you, while you generate the billing.

Except that they are a partnership, and you are never going to be, and they are self referring. They make more money when they biopsy, or they make even more than do from doing the biopsy. Most forms of self referral are already high restricted. While this is not yet restricted.

Additionally it is taking money out of the pathology group who used to read those biopsies.

 

[earthworm]

personally i think docs are weenies when it comes to people "taking their money". it's called competition.