NYU Internal Medicine AMA (Ask me anything)

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Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
No...it wasn't. NYU also has programs out in Brooklyn that took DOs. Now those have gone entirely MD. I am not asking for them to consider one group over another like they are right now. I am asking that they don't screen out DOs. People have been saying for years..."if only DOs took the USMLE and killed it." "If only DOs did research and killed it". Well, we have DOs that do that and would not even stand getting a chance at an interview at NYU.
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The affiliated programs are not the same as the main NYC Langone program...that program is pretty much all top applicants.
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Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
I think it is also scary that you are physician (as indicated by your badge on your profile) and you think it is ok to discriminate against DOs for residency. Hope you work in a place that doesn't have an DO physicians. Im sure they would be less than impressed by your lack of advocacy for your fellow physicians.
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Exactly how new are you?

I’ve been out in the real world as an attending to know what’s realistic...other than academics, once you get out in practice, no one cares where you did your residency...pts want to know you care able their health and want to take care of them...colleagues want to work with someone who is pleasant to work with and knows there stuff...MD/DO/MBBS...no one really asks about it and no one cares.

The places you will get pushback is getting clinical electives and residency interviews...once you are actually in the real world you will learn, but the bubble that “ we are and should be treated as equal” doesn’t exist when getting 4 th year electives and residency spots...it gets better in the real world...when you finally enter it, you’ll see that.
 
rokshana said:
Please ...DOs want to think that they thought of in the same level as the allopathic MD student, but you are closer in regard to the Caribbean grad...we all share a stigma of some sort...there will be programs that prefer DO over F/IMGs and others that do the opposite, but they all will prefer a USMD...will they look at the exceptional student?...sure, but make no mistake, they will rank the USMD over the others.

If you didn’t know that going in when you decided to do to a DO school, you didn’t do your due diligence.
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Please provide evidence for your opinion on DOs. The only evidence I have seen is that DO matriculants have slightly lower MCAT scores than MD matriculants. Why are we still judging people based on their MCAT scores? Of course there are programs that have preference but at least MDs still have a chance at an interview. They are not thought of as "lower".
 
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rokshana said:
Exactly how new are you?

I’ve been out in the real world as an attending to know what’s realistic...other than academics, once you get out in practice, no one cares where you did your residency...pts want to know you care able their health and want to take care of them...colleagues want to work with someone who is pleasant to work with and knows there stuff...MD/DO/MBBS...no one really asks about it and no one cares.

The places you will get pushback is getting clinical electives and residency interviews...once you are actually in the real world you will learn, but the bubble that “ we are and should be treated as equal” doesn’t exist when getting 4 th year electives and residency spots...it gets better in the real world...when you finally enter it, you’ll see that.
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Discrimination is wrong anywhere, at any level, and you should never be supporting that. That is what I am getting at.
 
Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
Well these "affiliated" programs are no longer taking DOs.
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Because, as I said, programs prefer USMD students over either DO/I/FMG applicants... they view it as an improvement...heard this discussion at a number of different programs in different speciality.

And it’s a common enough question/concern applicant have about a program...” hear/see that such n such program has a lot of DOs or FMGs ...top students ...middle of the road students, won’t interview because of that? Don’t believe me? Go look through the WAMC threads out there.

Not really gonna debate the DO/MD thing...there are plenty of threads out there for that...bottom line, starting students fret over it and by the time your an attending, no one cares or worries about it...only place it could stop you is if you want to be big dog academic...then it could be a problem... but most aren’t looking to do that.
 
rokshana said:
Because, as I said, programs prefer USMD students over either DO/I/FMG applicants... they view it as an improvement...heard this discussion at a number of different programs in different speciality.

And it’s a common enough question/concern applicant have about a program...” hear/see that such n such program has a lot of DOs or FMGs ...top students ...middle of the road students, won’t interview because of that? Don’t believe me? Go look through the WAMC threads out there.

Not really gonna debate the DO/MD thing...there are plenty of threads out there for that...bottom line, starting students fret over it and by the time your an attending, no one cares or worries about it...only place it could stop you is if you want to be big dog academic...then it could be a problem... but most aren’t looking to do that.
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Ok I get that. So,tell me why this is ok? Medicine has a lot of faults and historically has been discriminatory. Why is it ok to continue to support that? If someone doesn't want to apply to a program soley because there are more DOs than MDs, then that sadly says more about the person applying than the program. If you really think that there is no real difference between physicians based on the letters after their name then you should be advocating for equal consideration and treatment throughout training. And if you can't do that then you should be advocating for a combined medical education system.
 
Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
Ok I get that. So,tell me why this is ok? Medicine has a lot of faults and historically has been discriminatory. Why is it ok to continue to support that? If someone doesn't want to apply to a program soley because there are more DOs than MDs, then that sadly says more about the person applying than the program. If you really think that there is no real difference between physicians based on the letters after their name then you should be advocating for equal consideration and treatment throughout training. And if you can't do that then you should be advocating for a combined medical education system.
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Oh i suspect there will eventually be one... just as DO residency programs had to become ACGME accredited to continue, so will DO schools eventually become LCME accredited and AOA will cease to exist... it won’t happen right away... but 10-20 years from now? Everyone will be MDs.
 
rokshana said:
Please ...DOs want to think that they thought of in the same level as the allopathic MD student, but you are closer in regard to the Caribbean grad...we all share a stigma of some sort...there will be programs that prefer DO over F/IMGs and others that do the opposite, but they all will prefer a USMD...will they look at the exceptional student?...sure, but make no mistake, they will rank the USMD over the others.

If you didn’t know that going in when you decided to do to a DO school, you didn’t do your due diligence.
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Coming in hot! I don't agree, but I love the tone. We need to make SDN a safe space for people who do real talk (that's you)
 
Kinda sucks when you constantly hear the SDN lords talk about how DOs AMGs IMGs XMGs etc etc are lower than the rest. I mean, come one, that gets tiring and old. And guess what? We still have a crappy medical system. Why not question the system instead of being complicit in it?
 
Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
You mean discriminatory talk? Check yourself perhaps?
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Dude, have you read @rokshana 's posts? They openly say that DO's are not worse people and not worse physicians than MD's. We have no disdain for you, and we want you to succeed. Unfortunately, being a US trained MD is viewed more favorably by many program directors than being a US trained DO. Do I think this is the right thing to do? No. However, you're suggesting that we bring down some sort of national banhammer on these programs because discriminating on admitting you because of your degree is somehow an affront to medicine. I'm arguing that no, it is not. DO's are not a marginalized class of people. Furthermore, there are myriad residencies that will accept you, many of which are academic, many of which give great access to fellowship, and ALL of which have the power to get you through training and make you an excellent physician.

And here's some real talk: The statistical standards to get into MD schools are, in fact, higher than the standards to get into DO schools. Is anyone arguing that that makes you a worse doctor? No. However, this is how these lower standards play out. I went to a low tier MD school, and I had a great Step 1 score, great letters, and great clinical grades, and I didn't get interviews at many places simply because of my school. I know this because I watched my friends at higher schools get interviews. Honestly, it's exactly the same idea; schools simply use DO status as a cutoff.

I am certain that you are going to be an amazing physician, and I hope that the chip on your shoulder doesn't stop you from accepting your true potential. You have the chance at an amazing career, and I hope that residency applications go well for you.

Edit: oh, and maybe you didn't realize this, but @rokshana is a DO. They want you to do well. They just disagree with you, dude.

second edit: ummmmmm was wrong, she not be that
 
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I get that. All I’m saying is that it takes a lot more effort to get up in the morning and think of the many ways DOs/IMGs/whatever are inadequate to USMDs rather than saying how can I make the system more equitable for everyone. And of course the system looks favorable towards MDs. The system was built by and for MDs. And look at where we are now. We have some of the worst health outcome in the developed world. If the system actually had better outcomes, those arguments about keeping things the way they are and keeping all the “outsiders”out would be valid. This is not the case.
Also, I know several DO students who come
From the patient population that NYU serves who are also excellent students. They would have served those patients well, perhaps better than the people they recruit from out of state who leave NYC the minute they graduate or move to fellowship. They would not even get a chance at an interview. That’s sad. Anyway best of luck to you all. I know you don’t hate DOs and I’m not insinuating that. I just think we can do things differently.
 
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Seriously though for a second: I don't think Rokshana's trying to argue one way or another, I think she's just making an observation. Whether it's right or wrong is another discussion altogether.

One thing I learned about life (especially while dating in a hyper-judgmental and comparative place like NYC) is that no one can really provide you with happiness and fulfillment. You have to find that in yourself. It sounds simple but it's really not, especially in a society that's constantly telling you to achieve and buy and obtain things. The world wants you to feel unfulfilled so that you'll spend more and make more and work harder for your bosses to achieve more and the only way to counter this is to make a conscious effort against these forces.

Buddy, at the end of the day, you're a doctor. No one can take that away from you. My little brother is applying to med schools right now and he would kill to get into a DO school. Just take a trip over to the pre-med forums to see my point. If you've rotated at an underserved hospital (like Bellevue for me), then you'll know that most of your patients would give their left testicle (or ovary, or non-gender binary reproductive organ) to be in your position. You'll eventually graduate, go out into the real world, work as a doctor, and realize this gig is pretty freaking awesome for a ton of reasons and you may feel cheapened, invalidated, and disrespected by institutional forces beyond your control but honestly, no one can take your overall happiness as a physician and self-dignity away from you. Focus on what you've got. We've all got our desires and quelling those desires to a manageable volume is part of what it means to be human.

Now anyone have any questions about the program?
 
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Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
sorry I stand by what I said. No, DOs aren't a protected class. But discrimination is discrimination dude. We have enough of it in medicine..and I don't think discriminating against DOs isn't helping provide good patient care.
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Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
No...it wasn't. NYU also has programs out in Brooklyn that took DOs. Now those have gone entirely MD. I am not asking for them to consider one group over another like they are right now. I am asking that they don't screen out DOs. People have been saying for years..."if only DOs took the USMLE and killed it." "If only DOs did research and killed it". Well, we have DOs that do that and would not even stand getting a chance at an interview at NYU.
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Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
This is not entirely true. Not all of the IM class is from top MD schools. I think this whole excuse of having too many applicants is a cop out. No offense. And DOs are not the same as FMGs or Caribbean grads. Why is it so hard for you to own to the fact that they are extremely discriminatory in their selection? Who are they missing out on by screening out all DOs?
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Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
I think it is also scary that you are physician (as indicated by your badge on your profile) and you think it is ok to discriminate against DOs for residency. Hope you work in a place that doesn't have an DO physicians. Im sure they would be less than impressed by your lack of advocacy for your fellow physicians.
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You are one SALTY person. You will not get by in the interview process with this gigantic chip on your shoulder; so, check your attitude, and get rid of it. Since you chose to go to a DO school, you need to live with it. Or, if you didn't get into a USMD school, then you need to also live with it.

Anyways, stop balking and take this mentality. If NYU isn't taking DO's, then maybe it isn't the place you want to be?
 
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Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
I get that. All I’m saying is that it takes a lot more effort to get up in the morning and think of the many ways DOs/IMGs/whatever are inadequate to USMDs rather than saying how can I make the system more equitable for everyone. And of course the system looks favorable towards MDs. The system was built by and for MDs. And look at where we are now. We have some of the worst health outcome in the developed world. If the system actually had better outcomes, those arguments about keeping things the way they are and keeping all the “outsiders”out would be valid. This is not the case.
Also, I know several DO students who come
From the patient population that NYU serves who are also excellent students. They would have served those patients well, perhaps better than the people they recruit from out of state who leave NYC the minute they graduate or move to fellowship. They would not even get a chance at an interview. That’s sad. Anyway best of luck to you all. I know you don’t hate DOs and I’m not insinuating that. I just think we can do things differently.
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Some rhetorical questions to consider:

1. Do you truly think that considering DO's on the same level as MD's in residency admissions is going to make a huge difference to the healthcare landscape?

2. Do you truly feel that we view DO's as outsiders and that's why you aren't able to match to certain places?

3. What makes a DO more likely to stay in New York after residency? And why should NYU care considering they aren't a publicly funded school and are ultimately an academic residency program?
 
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tantacles said:
Dude, have you read @rokshana 's posts? They openly say that DO's are not worse people and not worse physicians than MD's. We have no disdain for you, and we want you to succeed. Unfortunately, being a US trained MD is viewed more favorably by many program directors than being a US trained DO. Do I think this is the right thing to do? No. However, you're suggesting that we bring down some sort of national banhammer on these programs because discriminating on admitting you because of your degree is somehow an affront to medicine. I'm arguing that no, it is not. DO's are not a marginalized class of people. Furthermore, there are myriad residencies that will accept you, many of which are academic, many of which give great access to fellowship, and ALL of which have the power to get you through training and make you an excellent physician.

And here's some real talk: The statistical standards to get into MD schools are, in fact, higher than the standards to get into DO schools. Is anyone arguing that that makes you a worse doctor? No. However, this is how these lower standards play out. I went to a low tier MD school, and I had a great Step 1 score, great letters, and great clinical grades, and I didn't get interviews at many places simply because of my school. I know this because I watched my friends at higher schools get interviews. Honestly, it's exactly the same idea; schools simply use DO status as a cutoff.

I am certain that you are going to be an amazing physician, and I hope that the chip on your shoulder doesn't stop you from accepting your true potential. You have the chance at an amazing career, and I hope that residency applications go well for you.

Edit: oh, and maybe you didn't realize this, but @rokshana is a DO. They want you to do well. They just disagree with you, dude.
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No, actually I’m an IMG...SGU grad.
But I still want them to do well...but you have to realize the limitations...doesn’t mean you don’t apply, but also don’t hold your breath that you will either get an interview or get ranked high enough to get in.

I applied to a few upper tier programs and got interviews at 2 of them...I ranked them high, but wasn’t surprised when I didn’t match at them.
 
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rokshana said:
No, actually I’m an IMG...SGU grad.
But I still want them to do well...but you have to realize the limitations...doesn’t mean you don’t apply, but also don’t hold your breath that you will either get an interview or get ranked high enough to get in.

I applied to a few upper tier programs and got interviews at 2 of them...I ranked them high, but wasn’t surprised when I didn’t match at them.
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WHOOPS! Editing nowwww
 
tantacles said:
WHOOPS! Editing nowwww
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No worries! Your point is correct regardless of the MD or DO degree.

My story is out there about why I picked what I did ...

It’s important that people who choose any route other than US MD, have to realize that there is a ding against you...and you need to be realistic about what that means.

Does it mean you don’t try to get into the best program you can? Of course not...but it’s like wanting to be an NBA player and you are 5’3”... not likely, but sure, occasionally a Muggsy Bogues happens, but it’s not the expected result.
 
Thanks so much for this advice, it was the best insight I've seen on NYU's IM program online. I'm an MS4 applying for IM and want to go into oncology and get involved in biotech/pharma, and my I'm debating ranking between Cornell, NYU, and Baylor MD Anderson Track.

1) Are there opportunities to get connected with biotech/pharma folks at NYU or being in the NYC atmosphere? How easy is it to network if that's your interest?
2) If I want to go to MD Anderson/Texas for oncology fellowship, will being in an east coast program hurt my chances?
3) How easy is it to get plugged in with opportunities at MSK?
4) What are biggest differences compared to Cornell?

thanks so much!
 
wacky411 said:
Thanks so much for this advice, it was the best insight I've seen on NYU's IM program online. I'm an MS4 applying for IM and want to go into oncology and get involved in biotech/pharma, and my I'm debating ranking between Cornell, NYU, and Baylor MD Anderson Track.

1) Are there opportunities to get connected with biotech/pharma folks at NYU or being in the NYC atmosphere? How easy is it to network if that's your interest?
2) If I want to go to MD Anderson/Texas for oncology fellowship, will being in an east coast program hurt my chances?
3) How easy is it to get plugged in with opportunities at MSK?
4) What are biggest differences compared to Cornell?

thanks so much!
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Can't comment on the other points as much but regarding point #2, going to an east coast program would not at all hurt your chances for fellowship programs in TX, particularly MD Anderson. Their fellows are from all over the country.
 
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wacky411 said:
If I want to go to MD Anderson/Texas for oncology fellowship, will being in an east coast program hurt my chances?
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If you want to go to MD Anderson/Texas for Onc fellowship, you should do residency at MD Anderson/Texas. You can build insane connections there.
 
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littlecow said:
If you want to go to MD Anderson/Texas for Onc fellowship, you should do residency at MD Anderson/Texas. You can build insane connections there.
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Yeah haha so I'm weighing among Cornell, NYU, and Baylor MD Anderson track. The only thing with the MD Anderson track is that it's intended more for onco-hospitalists but you get to rotate at MDACC for at least a third of your time during IM residency. Pro of Cornell and NYU is that I can still get plugged in with MSK and enjoy Manhattan for 3 years.
 
wacky411 said:
Yeah haha so I'm weighing among Cornell, NYU, and Baylor MD Anderson track. The only thing with the MD Anderson track is that it's intended more for onco-hospitalists but you get to rotate at MDACC for at least a third of your time during IM residency. Pro of Cornell and NYU is that I can still get plugged in with MSK and enjoy Manhattan for 3 years.
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Cornell is your best shot at MSK. They average 3-4 residents per year matching at MSK. Last several years, 3, 3, 4, 3, and 3. Their other h/o matches are always solid including MDACC, among others. Not evaluating the programs themselves though you’ll have a hard time convincing me Cornell vs NYU is a major difference. NYU gives you a more private/public experience with tisch and Bellevue and Cornell has amazing built in onc experience at MSKCC
 
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