Since their pension is tied to their base pay this likely reflects the 'bonus'...this was paid out for 50hrs a week instead of 40 and more call. It was the variable they could control since increasing base would substantially increase the pension. I know a few years back instead of getting a dividend bonus at the end of the year the SCPMG had to pay in because they were doing so bad financially, ie the partners all had to payback a few thousand. If you look into it they usually interview you and if you pass they give you the salary/benefits/bonus info, they were very transparent. The range is competitive for the area, the question will be are the hours/call. Most of the scpmg are hiring locums, like most Kaisers on the west coast they have their system where you need someone in the Kaiser system to vouch for you or you get hired on as full time per diem and get an offer if they like you. I think in this job market the system has probably faltered they were a behind with raising salaries, my friends in the LA kaiser said they're really scrambling to fill positions and getting way less applicants, don't know what their contract looks like nowadays, 600 would be the bare minimum for a single person to live somewhere comfortably in LA, that is with a nice apt/condo, can always live on less depending on your 5-10 year plan.
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I think the TPMG starting salary numbers are likely accurate. The main recruiter for anesthesia for TPMG is typically on top of things. With starting salaries in the low-mid 400’s, this would mean total comp (including pension value) is around the mid 900’s imo. So yah, either the SCPMG salaries got crazy good or they’re including something in there we’re not aware ofTPMG has historically paid better than SCPMG but nowadays their listed ranges are lower (400s). This doesn’t seem right. One of our experienced pediatric cardiac guys moved to Oakland Kaiser because they made him an “offer he couldn’t refuse”. Maybe the site is not up to date.
The Permanente Medical Group of Northern California
A multispecialty medical group of 9,500 physicians who deliver world-class medical care to 4.6 million Kaiser Permanente members in Northern and Central California.northerncalifornia.permanente.org
SCPMG currently advertises these ranges for subspecialists.
General 544-627
Cardiac 568-601
Pain 399–567
Peds 660-721
Mid 900’s? Don’t think the pension is that great
I know LA is expensive, but surely you could live comfortably there in a nice apartment for far less than 600k a year if you are assuming no kids/spouse...Since their pension is tied to their base pay this likely reflects the 'bonus'...this was paid out for 50hrs a week instead of 40 and more call. It was the variable they could control since increasing base would substantially increase the pension. I know a few years back instead of getting a dividend bonus at the end of the year the SCPMG had to pay in because they were doing so bad financially, ie the partners all had to payback a few thousand. If you look into it they usually interview you and if you pass they give you the salary/benefits/bonus info, they were very transparent. The range is competitive for the area, the question will be are the hours/call. Most of the scpmg are hiring locums, like most Kaisers on the west coast they have their system where you need someone in the Kaiser system to vouch for you or you get hired on as full time per diem and get an offer if they like you. I think in this job market the system has probably faltered they were a behind with raising salaries, my friends in the LA kaiser said they're really scrambling to fill positions and getting way less applicants, don't know what their contract looks like nowadays, 600 would be the bare minimum for a single person to live somewhere comfortably in LA, that is with a nice apt/condo, can always live on less depending on your 5-10 year plan.
I'm not saying I value it like that. I'm saying this is the value Kaiser is putting on their benefits/pension/etc as a whole. When they offer you a job, they break down all the number estimates for you, including salary for a set number of hours worked, overtime pay, partner bonuses, vacation accrual, total comp, etc. The value they put on their total benefits package including pension is in the 400-500k range.Mid 900’s? Don’t think the pension is that great
You will get crushed with w2 taxes at kaiser Southern California division. A 700k w2 Kaiser job is equivalent to a 600k 1099 job in California. As weird as that sounds. Especially if you have a spouse with healthcare benefits already.
Kaiser SoCal is 1099. Kaiser NorCal is w2.
So the pensions suck now. My sister in law pension after 20 years is around 60% of her salary. Los AngelesKaiser SoCal is 1099. Kaiser NorCal is w2.
I think the pensions are closer to 30-40%? Of salary after 20 years.
Yeah they’re about 30% after a 20 year vest period if i remember correctly, 40 I think if 30 years. The few people I know who went either went after <10 yrs in PP and were aiming for the 20yr vest period and few were at the tail of their career in PP and wanted 10yr for a solid pension on top of their 401k. Getting people to think in terms of 5/10/20 year plans is hard but important. Kaiser vacation at 5.5 weeks is tough though but if you’ve middle schoolers and live in SoCal can probably do long weekends at the beach anyway.
600k is definitely doable in LA…it’s just what you get, people focus on one end number, the top number too (not the bottom one after taxes/overhead, which is way more important especially if you invest). You might get a decent condo, not close to the beach, starting at around 1M…I have two friends who are nurses there and love it, 90k a year, they go out a lot and enjoy the city, good for them. But is it worth it long term, they pay little into retirement, will never have equity on property. I never say it but ask any nurse working over 60yo what they could change. It’s all about having a balance that works for you and also having short and long term plans with clear goals and knowing when you have to say f*** it and uproot yourself, don’t be afraid to change
600k is definitely doable in LA…it’s just what you get, people focus on one end number, the top number too (not the bottom one after taxes/overhead, which is way more important especially if you invest). You might get a decent condo, not close to the beach, starting at around 1M…I have two friends who are nurses there and love it, 90k a year, they go out a lot and enjoy the city, good for them. But is it worth it long term, they pay little into retirement, will never have equity on property. I never say it but ask any nurse working over 60yo what they could change. It’s all about having a balance that works for you and also having short and long term plans with clear goals and knowing when you have to say f*** it and uproot yourself, don’t be afraid to change
D
deleted87051
Is there a link to the Kaiser locums gig paying 500+/hr?
I believe this is for Kaiser peds. Still not $500/hr.
D
deleted87051
I have two friends who are nurses there and love it, 90k a year, they go out a lot and enjoy the city, good for them.
They must not work in a hospital. Ours start at 120k for new grads.
Might be LA too, one does a psych floor and another inpatient med floor. And this was a few years ago when they first moved…they’re union and get COLA, great benefits they don’t use. Both still live in one room shared houses (shared bathrooms/kitchens), mostly bc they’re single/no kids, but still close to 2k/room. One has told me as soon as she marries she’s dragging her husband to Utah or NV for the taxes/COL/family close by but loves LA for now, we’re close friends from college so she divulges
D
deleted87051
Might be LA too, one does a psych floor and another inpatient med floor. And this was a few years ago when they first moved…they’re union and get COLA, great benefits they don’t use. Both still live in one room shared houses (shared bathrooms/kitchens), mostly bc they’re single/no kids, but still close to 2k/room. One has told me as soon as she marries she’s dragging her husband to Utah or NV for the taxes/COL/family close by but loves LA for now, we’re close friends from college so she divulges
Most places got big raises during the pandemic. During that time we had 70% travelers. Now we have none.
I know LA is expensive, but surely you could live comfortably there in a nice apartment for far less than 600k a year if you are assuming no kids/spouse...
Most anesthesiologists don’t want to live a bachelor’s life indefinitely though.
Then they can move after they’ve had their fun.Most anesthesiologists don’t want to live a bachelor’s life indefinitely though.
Total benefits are dramatically inflated virtually always. Biggest scam is the pension, because younger docs don’t realize how much money they’ll have just by maxing 401k alone. The answer is about 7M in today’s dollars over a 30 year career. If you converted that to a pension that’s about 535k a year (7.5% rates). The famed Kaiser pension is 2% a year for 20 years and 1% a year for next 10, so 50% base (which is usually 2/3 actual $ being paid to you). So say 400k base, 200k bonuses/retirement cash in 403b etc.I'm not saying I value it like that. I'm saying this is the value Kaiser is putting on their benefits/pension/etc as a whole. When they offer you a job, they break down all the number estimates for you, including salary for a set number of hours worked, overtime pay, partner bonuses, vacation accrual, total comp, etc. The value they put on their total benefits package including pension is in the 400-500k range.
So your pension is 50% of 400k. Aka 200k a year. Not even half as good as maxing your 401k. Unless things changed in the last 5 years or so.
This isn’t a critique of Kaiser by the way, just a critique of pensions and how they can dazzle young docs that don’t realize how much their $$ will grow over 30+ years.
I would say the pension is worth about 40k a year, and that’s generous. Good private practice groups you can roll your own (superior) pension too.
Yes, I agree they are inflated. The best things about kaiser jobs imo are probably the amount of vacation one can accrue (basically paid vacation) and the lifestyle/work hours.Total benefits are dramatically inflated virtually always. Biggest scam is the pension, because younger docs don’t realize how much money they’ll have just by maxing 401k alone. The answer is about 7M in today’s dollars over a 30 year career. If you converted that to a pension that’s about 535k a year (7.5% rates). The famed Kaiser pension is 2% a year for 20 years and 1% a year for next 10, so 50% base (which is usually 2/3 actual $ being paid to you). So say 400k base, 200k bonuses/retirement cash in 403b etc.
So your pension is 50% of 400k. Aka 200k a year. Not even half as good as maxing your 401k. Unless things changed in the last 5 years or so.
This isn’t a critique of Kaiser by the way, just a critique of pensions and how they can dazzle young docs that don’t realize how much their $$ will grow over 30+ years.
I would say the pension is worth about 40k a year, and that’s generous. Good private practice groups you can roll your own (superior) pension too.
Total benefits are dramatically inflated virtually always. Biggest scam is the pension, because younger docs don’t realize how much money they’ll have just by maxing 401k alone. The answer is about 7M in today’s dollars over a 30 year career. If you converted that to a pension that’s about 535k a year (7.5% rates). The famed Kaiser pension is 2% a year for 20 years and 1% a year for next 10, so 50% base (which is usually 2/3 actual $ being paid to you). So say 400k base, 200k bonuses/retirement cash in 403b etc.
So your pension is 50% of 400k. Aka 200k a year. Not even half as good as maxing your 401k. Unless things changed in the last 5 years or so.
This isn’t a critique of Kaiser by the way, just a critique of pensions and how they can dazzle young docs that don’t realize how much their $$ will grow over 30+ years.
I would say the pension is worth about 40k a year, and that’s generous. Good private practice groups you can roll your own (superior) pension too.
How much more do you think an anesthesiologist should make where it financially makes more sense to strike out on their own in pp? Accounting for benefits and pension, I’d say the benefits and pension are only worth 100k.
I don’t really understand paid vacation as a benefit or not. A lot of PP jobs are collection based, but we say “ok you’ll average 600k with 10 weeks vacation” or whatever the figures might be. So those weeks are unpaid in a way, but at the same time not different than paid vacation + salary at 600k. The phenomenon of unpaid vacation with a salary is just so unusual to me (aka you take a month off you don’t get paid a month).Yes, I agree they are inflated. The best things about kaiser jobs imo are probably the amount of vacation one can accrue (basically paid vacation) and the lifestyle/work hours.
That sounds roughly accurate. The benefits are good, but even good benefits don’t move the needle dramatically for anesthesiologists. This isn’t like a union job that pays 40 an hour with an insane pension + 401k + healthcare that almost doubles the effective wage.How much more do you think an anesthesiologist should make where it financially makes more sense to strike out on their own in pp? Accounting for benefits and pension, I’d say the benefits and pension are only worth 100k.
Pension is not a scam under the old systemTotal benefits are dramatically inflated virtually always. Biggest scam is the pension, because younger docs don’t realize how much money they’ll have just by maxing 401k alone. The answer is about 7M in today’s dollars over a 30 year career. If you converted that to a pension that’s about 535k a year (7.5% rates). The famed Kaiser pension is 2% a year for 20 years and 1% a year for next 10, so 50% base (which is usually 2/3 actual $ being paid to you). So say 400k base, 200k bonuses/retirement cash in 403b etc.
So your pension is 50% of 400k. Aka 200k a year. Not even half as good as maxing your 401k. Unless things changed in the last 5 years or so.
This isn’t a critique of Kaiser by the way, just a critique of pensions and how they can dazzle young docs that don’t realize how much their $$ will grow over 30+ years.
I would say the pension is worth about 40k a year, and that’s generous. Good private practice groups you can roll your own (superior) pension too.
Remember pensions requirements change over time
Kaiser pre 2008? Hires contributed much less and the payout was much more I think. My sister in law is under the old Kaiser pension systems
Same thing with the federal govt Those who started before Dec 31 2012 only contribute 0.8% of their salary to the federal pension. The newer hires contribute 4.4%. That’s almost 6X as the old people.
There is a reason the older people stay. They pay less into the system and get more out.
You want production base. Which is fine except anesthesia production is too dependent on case load and surgeon availability.I don’t really understand paid vacation as a benefit or not. A lot of PP jobs are collection based, but we say “ok you’ll average 600k with 10 weeks vacation” or whatever the figures might be. So those weeks are unpaid in a way, but at the same time not different than paid vacation + salary at 600k. The phenomenon of unpaid vacation with a salary is just so unusual to me (aka you take a month off you don’t get paid a month).
That sounds roughly accurate. The benefits are good, but even good benefits don’t move the needle dramatically for anesthesiologists. This isn’t like a union job that pays 40 an hour with an insane pension + 401k + healthcare that almost doubles the effective wage.
You can be available to work 24 hrs and no surgeon available. You make close to zero or whatever the hospital subsidy for call coverage is.
Yep. We are employed but paid per shift (as are many employed positions), and I have to remind everyone in my group that there is no PTO. Your vacation weeks are just TO. We’re guaranteed a certain amount of TO, but there ain’t no PTO. Your “salary” is just a draw based on your expected number of shifts.I don’t really understand paid vacation as a benefit or not. A lot of PP jobs are collection based, but we say “ok you’ll average 600k with 10 weeks vacation” or whatever the figures might be. So those weeks are unpaid in a way, but at the same time not different than paid vacation + salary at 600k. The phenomenon of unpaid vacation with a salary is just so unusual to me (aka you take a month off you don’t get paid a month).
Go ahead and try to take all that “accrued” vacation, you’d be surprised how little flexibility that extra time gives you in a practice that isn’t running super fatYes, I agree they are inflated. The best things about kaiser jobs imo are probably the amount of vacation one can accrue (basically paid vacation) and the lifestyle/work hours.
gasdoc2025
New Member
Is there any updates on groups out at Cedars-Sinai or Santa Monica group advertising on GasWork?
When I went over there to talk to the two that were running the group 25 years ago the deal seemed shady as hellIs there any updates on groups out at Cedars-Sinai or Santa Monica group advertising on GasWork?
Yeah this thread could use an updated CA group summary like OP made; seems there’s been lots of changes with every group over the past few years. We were somewhat close to a southern California move back in 2020 and many group’s offers were shady af (one offering me $150/hr as a 1099 with the “potential” to eventually join the group). At the time the only one I remember being on the level was the large SD group.
Total benefits are dramatically inflated virtually always. Biggest scam is the pension, because younger docs don’t realize how much money they’ll have just by maxing 401k alone. The answer is about 7M in today’s dollars over a 30 year career. If you converted that to a pension that’s about 535k a year (7.5% rates). The famed Kaiser pension is 2% a year for 20 years and 1% a year for next 10, so 50% base (which is usually 2/3 actual $ being paid to you). So say 400k base, 200k bonuses/retirement cash in 403b etc.
So your pension is 50% of 400k. Aka 200k a year. Not even half as good as maxing your 401k. Unless things changed in the last 5 years or so.
This isn’t a critique of Kaiser by the way, just a critique of pensions and how they can dazzle young docs that don’t realize how much their $$ will grow over 30+ years.
I would say the pension is worth about 40k a year, and that’s generous. Good private practice groups you can roll your own (superior) pension too.
Kaiser also offers 401k that you can contribute to employee and employer portion. The pension is like cherry on top. It’s like a better social security income.
Another benefit of having pension is it allows you to be more aggressive with your 401k investment. Even during market downturn, you can just ride it out and still have guaranteed income in pension
The actual value of the pension is very low compared to taking the actual money as income and simply investing it. Especially since you cant leave it to your heirsKaiser also offers 401k that you can contribute to employee and employer portion. The pension is like cherry on top. It’s like a better social security income.
Another benefit of having pension is it allows you to be more aggressive with your 401k investment. Even during market downturn, you can just ride it out and still have guaranteed income in pension
Its better than another w2 job, that pays the same wiithout pension. But it generally shouldn't be a major factor in any decision regarding going to kaiser. Especially since by the age of 55-65, in theory, most docs will only live another 10-20 years anyways (on average)
Crnas, vacation, shift work, vs 1099 preferences are bigger factors
I personally would rather have the money now
I looked at something like the federal pension.The actual value of the pension is very low compared to taking the actual money as income and simply investing it. Especially since you cant leave it to your heirs
Its better than another w2 job, that pays the same wiithout pension. But it generally shouldn't be a major factor in any decision regarding going to kaiser. Especially since by the age of 55-65, in theory, most docs will only live another 10-20 years anyways (on average)
Crnas, vacation, shift work, vs 1099 preferences are bigger factors
I personally would rather have the money now
4.4% post tax contribution each year
Say you made 350k
That’s 15k per year post tax contributed.
Let’s say you worked for 20 years. I won’t get into the complicated math but say it’s 15k x 20 years
That’s 300k post tax contributed over 20 years
Your “pay out” after 20 years is $350k x 1.0x x 20 years
That’s 70k a year for life (most of which is taxed unfortunately)
Say you live 20 years to age 82.
That’s 1.4 million in payout
Now how much does contributing 15k a year over 20 years to sp 500 net you?
At an annual return of 10% that nets you around 1.1 million. Now you may argue it’s not guranteed money. But I’m also assuming 10% return. Plus the money you gave up doing a lower paying job
I thought cedars was imploding recently?Is there any updates on groups out at Cedars-Sinai or Santa Monica group advertising on GasWork?
gasdoc2025
New Member
They have tried to recruit for almost 5 years now. I see their ads everywhere.I thought cedars was imploding recently?
I have a bit of time this evening to provide an update. I’m less involved in the day-to-day now than I was five years ago, so some of the details below are based on second-hand reports from colleagues. A few items labeled as “rumored” I’ve seen directly, while some first-hand accounts come from discussions with others in the field.
Envision
Envision appears to have exited Orange County, and possibly Southern California entirely. UCI acquired Tenet’s four struggling hospitals and awarded the anesthesia contract to NAPA. Colleagues who have joined NAPA report that payments remain reliable, though one (in a small sample) noted that billing discrepancies consistently favor the corporation and are rarely corrected. The unit value began at $37 (including blocks) and may have increased slightly since. Any call stipends from NAPA are unclear at this time.
This is not meant to suggest NAPA is an improvement over Envision. In fact, NAPA’s decision to appoint Doctors Wyn.som T0m and Mi.nh B.ui. as co-chiefs at those sites — given their well-known reputations individually and together — suggests conditions there will likely remain challenging for the foreseeable future.
NAPA
NAPA was recently removed from Orange Global, which must sting.
They have struggled to recruit for the new UCI hospitals, leading UCI to close at least two adjacent surgical centers: one on the Fountain Valley campus and one on the Los Alamitos campus.
Anesthesiologists working at two of the four UCI hospitals believe NAPA will be replaced within the next three months.
Somnia
Somnia secured the contract at Orange Global. They also appear to be retaining the contract at St. Mary’s in Long Beach, though leadership turnover there continues — they seem to average more than one new chief per year. Both facilities operate as Level II trauma centers using the care team model, a fact which speaks for itself.
Daydream
Daydream is a smaller group covering plastic surgery offices around Newport/Fashion Island. The owner previously worked with Allied before starting his own practice. He requires billing to route through him and then through Allied, with Allied taking a substantial cut followed by an additional 5% for the owner.
The anesthesiologists I know there are generally above average. Several have noted that the most appealing long-term aspect of the arrangement is the likelihood that the owner will eventually alienate the surgeons, prompting them to bypass Daydream and contract directly with the anesthesiologists.
Crystal
Crystal was a short-lived group (lasting roughly 2–3 years) that covered three or four SCA facilities. It was assembled by a former Allied executive as a last-ditch effort to prevent NAPA from taking over those sites. In late 2025, the founder handed the operation over to Allied. Initial reports suggested retirement, but it now appears he simply grew tired of dealing with SCA and Optum.
CAAMG
CAAMG lost its contracts at Orange Coast and Laguna Woods to Vituity (formerly CEP, and at one point operating as MedAmerica). It’s worth noting that repeated name changes like this often signal an attempt to distance from a poor reputation.
Talbert Anesthesia Group
This is another smaller, independent group. Their contracts appear less lucrative than Daydream’s, offering roughly mid-$30s per blended unit after Daydream’s layered cuts. On the positive side, they recently walked away from a difficult Optum facility in Huntington Beach and declined an ASC opportunity in Laguna Woods (after Vituity failed to retain all former CAAMG physicians). This shows a willingness to avoid desperate contracts.
Allied
Allied continues to pursue aggressive growth, primarily by accepting Optum facilities that most physicians with basic financial sense decline. In the past four months alone, they have taken on four new Optum contracts that appear burdensome.
Optum agrees to lose less money on CalOptima/Medicaid cases in surgical centers than they would in hospitals and, as a minority partner with SCA, may internally offset losses. Surgeons who sold equity to SCA/Optum now use these facilities for complex or low-reimbursement cases while directing higher-value work elsewhere. This leaves Allied staffing rooms with physician anesthesiologists for as little as 90 minutes of operating time per day (often not even consecutive).
One of these four new facilities recently experienced a GI death and an ENT near-miss within the past four weeks. It is also losing staff at a rate of roughly one nurse or scrub tech per week.
Allied remains physician-only on paper, which is theoretically preferable. However, when the majority of volume consists of Medicare cataracts, Medicare colonoscopies, and Cal-Optima carpal tunnels in a high cost-of-living area, maintaining competitive physician compensation becomes difficult. More flexible practices use CRNAs, creating a counter-intuitive dynamic: cost-conscious facilities often retain physician owners who prioritize margins over provider type. Many of these centers bill anesthesia charges directly while paying CRNAs a salary, directing the best-paying cases to the lowest-cost providers (CRNAs) while Allied absorbs the lowest-reimbursing work.
This structure helps explain Allied’s ongoing recruitment challenges.
Envision
Envision appears to have exited Orange County, and possibly Southern California entirely. UCI acquired Tenet’s four struggling hospitals and awarded the anesthesia contract to NAPA. Colleagues who have joined NAPA report that payments remain reliable, though one (in a small sample) noted that billing discrepancies consistently favor the corporation and are rarely corrected. The unit value began at $37 (including blocks) and may have increased slightly since. Any call stipends from NAPA are unclear at this time.
This is not meant to suggest NAPA is an improvement over Envision. In fact, NAPA’s decision to appoint Doctors Wyn.som T0m and Mi.nh B.ui. as co-chiefs at those sites — given their well-known reputations individually and together — suggests conditions there will likely remain challenging for the foreseeable future.
NAPA
NAPA was recently removed from Orange Global, which must sting.
They have struggled to recruit for the new UCI hospitals, leading UCI to close at least two adjacent surgical centers: one on the Fountain Valley campus and one on the Los Alamitos campus.
Anesthesiologists working at two of the four UCI hospitals believe NAPA will be replaced within the next three months.
Somnia
Somnia secured the contract at Orange Global. They also appear to be retaining the contract at St. Mary’s in Long Beach, though leadership turnover there continues — they seem to average more than one new chief per year. Both facilities operate as Level II trauma centers using the care team model, a fact which speaks for itself.
Daydream
Daydream is a smaller group covering plastic surgery offices around Newport/Fashion Island. The owner previously worked with Allied before starting his own practice. He requires billing to route through him and then through Allied, with Allied taking a substantial cut followed by an additional 5% for the owner.
The anesthesiologists I know there are generally above average. Several have noted that the most appealing long-term aspect of the arrangement is the likelihood that the owner will eventually alienate the surgeons, prompting them to bypass Daydream and contract directly with the anesthesiologists.
Crystal
Crystal was a short-lived group (lasting roughly 2–3 years) that covered three or four SCA facilities. It was assembled by a former Allied executive as a last-ditch effort to prevent NAPA from taking over those sites. In late 2025, the founder handed the operation over to Allied. Initial reports suggested retirement, but it now appears he simply grew tired of dealing with SCA and Optum.
CAAMG
CAAMG lost its contracts at Orange Coast and Laguna Woods to Vituity (formerly CEP, and at one point operating as MedAmerica). It’s worth noting that repeated name changes like this often signal an attempt to distance from a poor reputation.
Talbert Anesthesia Group
This is another smaller, independent group. Their contracts appear less lucrative than Daydream’s, offering roughly mid-$30s per blended unit after Daydream’s layered cuts. On the positive side, they recently walked away from a difficult Optum facility in Huntington Beach and declined an ASC opportunity in Laguna Woods (after Vituity failed to retain all former CAAMG physicians). This shows a willingness to avoid desperate contracts.
Allied
Allied continues to pursue aggressive growth, primarily by accepting Optum facilities that most physicians with basic financial sense decline. In the past four months alone, they have taken on four new Optum contracts that appear burdensome.
Optum agrees to lose less money on CalOptima/Medicaid cases in surgical centers than they would in hospitals and, as a minority partner with SCA, may internally offset losses. Surgeons who sold equity to SCA/Optum now use these facilities for complex or low-reimbursement cases while directing higher-value work elsewhere. This leaves Allied staffing rooms with physician anesthesiologists for as little as 90 minutes of operating time per day (often not even consecutive).
One of these four new facilities recently experienced a GI death and an ENT near-miss within the past four weeks. It is also losing staff at a rate of roughly one nurse or scrub tech per week.
Allied remains physician-only on paper, which is theoretically preferable. However, when the majority of volume consists of Medicare cataracts, Medicare colonoscopies, and Cal-Optima carpal tunnels in a high cost-of-living area, maintaining competitive physician compensation becomes difficult. More flexible practices use CRNAs, creating a counter-intuitive dynamic: cost-conscious facilities often retain physician owners who prioritize margins over provider type. Many of these centers bill anesthesia charges directly while paying CRNAs a salary, directing the best-paying cases to the lowest-cost providers (CRNAs) while Allied absorbs the lowest-reimbursing work.
This structure helps explain Allied’s ongoing recruitment challenges.
cittykat
Full Member
I have a bit of time this evening to provide an update. I’m less involved in the day-to-day now than I was five years ago, so some of the details below are based on second-hand reports from colleagues. A few items labeled as “rumored” I’ve seen directly, while some first-hand accounts come from discussions with others in the field.
Envision
Envision appears to have exited Orange County, and possibly Southern California entirely. UCI acquired Tenet’s four struggling hospitals and awarded the anesthesia contract to NAPA. Colleagues who have joined NAPA report that payments remain reliable, though one (in a small sample) noted that billing discrepancies consistently favor the corporation and are rarely corrected. The unit value began at $37 (including blocks) and may have increased slightly since. Any call stipends from NAPA are unclear at this time.
This is not meant to suggest NAPA is an improvement over Envision. In fact, NAPA’s decision to appoint Doctors Wyn.som T0m and Mi.nh B.ui. as co-chiefs at those sites — given their well-known reputations individually and together — suggests conditions there will likely remain challenging for the foreseeable future.
NAPA
NAPA was recently removed from Orange Global, which must sting.
They have struggled to recruit for the new UCI hospitals, leading UCI to close at least two adjacent surgical centers: one on the Fountain Valley campus and one on the Los Alamitos campus.
Anesthesiologists working at two of the four UCI hospitals believe NAPA will be replaced within the next three months.
Somnia
Somnia secured the contract at Orange Global. They also appear to be retaining the contract at St. Mary’s in Long Beach, though leadership turnover there continues — they seem to average more than one new chief per year. Both facilities operate as Level II trauma centers using the care team model, a fact which speaks for itself.
Daydream
Daydream is a smaller group covering plastic surgery offices around Newport/Fashion Island. The owner previously worked with Allied before starting his own practice. He requires billing to route through him and then through Allied, with Allied taking a substantial cut followed by an additional 5% for the owner.
The anesthesiologists I know there are generally above average. Several have noted that the most appealing long-term aspect of the arrangement is the likelihood that the owner will eventually alienate the surgeons, prompting them to bypass Daydream and contract directly with the anesthesiologists.
Crystal
Crystal was a short-lived group (lasting roughly 2–3 years) that covered three or four SCA facilities. It was assembled by a former Allied executive as a last-ditch effort to prevent NAPA from taking over those sites. In late 2025, the founder handed the operation over to Allied. Initial reports suggested retirement, but it now appears he simply grew tired of dealing with SCA and Optum.
CAAMG
CAAMG lost its contracts at Orange Coast and Laguna Woods to Vituity (formerly CEP, and at one point operating as MedAmerica). It’s worth noting that repeated name changes like this often signal an attempt to distance from a poor reputation.
Talbert Anesthesia Group
This is another smaller, independent group. Their contracts appear less lucrative than Daydream’s, offering roughly mid-$30s per blended unit after Daydream’s layered cuts. On the positive side, they recently walked away from a difficult Optum facility in Huntington Beach and declined an ASC opportunity in Laguna Woods (after Vituity failed to retain all former CAAMG physicians). This shows a willingness to avoid desperate contracts.
Allied
Allied continues to pursue aggressive growth, primarily by accepting Optum facilities that most physicians with basic financial sense decline. In the past four months alone, they have taken on four new Optum contracts that appear burdensome.
Optum agrees to lose less money on CalOptima/Medicaid cases in surgical centers than they would in hospitals and, as a minority partner with SCA, may internally offset losses. Surgeons who sold equity to SCA/Optum now use these facilities for complex or low-reimbursement cases while directing higher-value work elsewhere. This leaves Allied staffing rooms with physician anesthesiologists for as little as 90 minutes of operating time per day (often not even consecutive).
One of these four new facilities recently experienced a GI death and an ENT near-miss within the past four weeks. It is also losing staff at a rate of roughly one nurse or scrub tech per week.
Allied remains physician-only on paper, which is theoretically preferable. However, when the majority of volume consists of Medicare cataracts, Medicare colonoscopies, and Cal-Optima carpal tunnels in a high cost-of-living area, maintaining competitive physician compensation becomes difficult. More flexible practices use CRNAs, creating a counter-intuitive dynamic: cost-conscious facilities often retain physician owners who prioritize margins over provider type. Many of these centers bill anesthesia charges directly while paying CRNAs a salary, directing the best-paying cases to the lowest-cost providers (CRNAs) while Allied absorbs the lowest-reimbursing work.
This structure helps explain Allied’s ongoing recruitment challenges.
Do you know where this is?
That’s great. My brothers place in LA doesn’t have any issues finding people these days. They used to. But the hospital is forking over 100% income over to the former group. So they get direct payment. Their income has jumped from 600k to 1 million and their work hours down to 55 hrs and their weeks off increased from 6 weeks to around 9 weeks off.
It’s a great time to be in the city of Angels (not in the boonies like riverside or even Orange County
The beauty of supply and demand and capital markets working. No sign on bonus needed.
Edit: Envision completely exited the state of CA. Most of their NorCal sites became Vituity. Temecula area sites became AnesthesiaWorks.
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What a joke! Look at the names! Daydream, Crystal? Sound like Onlyfans.I have a bit of time this evening to provide an update. I’m less involved in the day-to-day now than I was five years ago, so some of the details below are based on second-hand reports from colleagues. A few items labeled as “rumored” I’ve seen directly, while some first-hand accounts come from discussions with others in the field.
Envision
Envision appears to have exited Orange County, and possibly Southern California entirely. UCI acquired Tenet’s four struggling hospitals and awarded the anesthesia contract to NAPA. Colleagues who have joined NAPA report that payments remain reliable, though one (in a small sample) noted that billing discrepancies consistently favor the corporation and are rarely corrected. The unit value began at $37 (including blocks) and may have increased slightly since. Any call stipends from NAPA are unclear at this time.
This is not meant to suggest NAPA is an improvement over Envision. In fact, NAPA’s decision to appoint Doctors Wyn.som T0m and Mi.nh B.ui. as co-chiefs at those sites — given their well-known reputations individually and together — suggests conditions there will likely remain challenging for the foreseeable future.
NAPA
NAPA was recently removed from Orange Global, which must sting.
They have struggled to recruit for the new UCI hospitals, leading UCI to close at least two adjacent surgical centers: one on the Fountain Valley campus and one on the Los Alamitos campus.
Anesthesiologists working at two of the four UCI hospitals believe NAPA will be replaced within the next three months.
Somnia
Somnia secured the contract at Orange Global. They also appear to be retaining the contract at St. Mary’s in Long Beach, though leadership turnover there continues — they seem to average more than one new chief per year. Both facilities operate as Level II trauma centers using the care team model, a fact which speaks for itself.
Daydream
Daydream is a smaller group covering plastic surgery offices around Newport/Fashion Island. The owner previously worked with Allied before starting his own practice. He requires billing to route through him and then through Allied, with Allied taking a substantial cut followed by an additional 5% for the owner.
The anesthesiologists I know there are generally above average. Several have noted that the most appealing long-term aspect of the arrangement is the likelihood that the owner will eventually alienate the surgeons, prompting them to bypass Daydream and contract directly with the anesthesiologists.
Crystal
Crystal was a short-lived group (lasting roughly 2–3 years) that covered three or four SCA facilities. It was assembled by a former Allied executive as a last-ditch effort to prevent NAPA from taking over those sites. In late 2025, the founder handed the operation over to Allied. Initial reports suggested retirement, but it now appears he simply grew tired of dealing with SCA and Optum.
CAAMG
CAAMG lost its contracts at Orange Coast and Laguna Woods to Vituity (formerly CEP, and at one point operating as MedAmerica). It’s worth noting that repeated name changes like this often signal an attempt to distance from a poor reputation.
Talbert Anesthesia Group
This is another smaller, independent group. Their contracts appear less lucrative than Daydream’s, offering roughly mid-$30s per blended unit after Daydream’s layered cuts. On the positive side, they recently walked away from a difficult Optum facility in Huntington Beach and declined an ASC opportunity in Laguna Woods (after Vituity failed to retain all former CAAMG physicians). This shows a willingness to avoid desperate contracts.
Allied
Allied continues to pursue aggressive growth, primarily by accepting Optum facilities that most physicians with basic financial sense decline. In the past four months alone, they have taken on four new Optum contracts that appear burdensome.
Optum agrees to lose less money on CalOptima/Medicaid cases in surgical centers than they would in hospitals and, as a minority partner with SCA, may internally offset losses. Surgeons who sold equity to SCA/Optum now use these facilities for complex or low-reimbursement cases while directing higher-value work elsewhere. This leaves Allied staffing rooms with physician anesthesiologists for as little as 90 minutes of operating time per day (often not even consecutive).
One of these four new facilities recently experienced a GI death and an ENT near-miss within the past four weeks. It is also losing staff at a rate of roughly one nurse or scrub tech per week.
Allied remains physician-only on paper, which is theoretically preferable. However, when the majority of volume consists of Medicare cataracts, Medicare colonoscopies, and Cal-Optima carpal tunnels in a high cost-of-living area, maintaining competitive physician compensation becomes difficult. More flexible practices use CRNAs, creating a counter-intuitive dynamic: cost-conscious facilities often retain physician owners who prioritize margins over provider type. Many of these centers bill anesthesia charges directly while paying CRNAs a salary, directing the best-paying cases to the lowest-cost providers (CRNAs) while Allied absorbs the lowest-reimbursing work.
This structure helps explain Allied’s ongoing recruitment challenges.
Pay me 350+ /hr, guaranteed 8 or 10hrs. No? Fxxk off.
The OC job market is quite good at the moment.
Vituity has taken over at Long Beach and Saddleback, with most anesthesiologists from CAA staying on and happy with the bump on reimbursement.
Hoag seems to be hiring at a lightning pace with expansion and opening of a new hospital in Irvine. The hospital system has deep pockets.
Mission has recently done away with their partnership track and renegotiated a higher stipend from the hospital.
At all of the above places you can easily make $600k+ with a decent lifestyle.
Vituity has taken over at Long Beach and Saddleback, with most anesthesiologists from CAA staying on and happy with the bump on reimbursement.
Hoag seems to be hiring at a lightning pace with expansion and opening of a new hospital in Irvine. The hospital system has deep pockets.
Mission has recently done away with their partnership track and renegotiated a higher stipend from the hospital.
At all of the above places you can easily make $600k+ with a decent lifestyle.
600k is good if you aren't working many hours and have tons of time off like 15 weeks off. So decent lifestyle is very vague term.The OC job market is quite good at the moment.
Vituity has taken over at Long Beach and Saddleback, with most anesthesiologists from CAA staying on and happy with the bump on reimbursement.
Hoag seems to be hiring at a lightning pace with expansion and opening of a new hospital in Irvine. The hospital system has deep pockets.
Mission has recently done away with their partnership track and renegotiated a higher stipend from the hospital.
At all of the above places you can easily make $600k+ with a decent lifestyle.
at $37/unit, you'd be cranking out nearly 1400 units/mo to get to 600K. Assuming 6.5 units/hr for regular cases (obviously if there's lots of spine or EP, this might be a low estimate), that's 210 hrs/mo, or about 50 hrs/week, every week, not counting any vacation, to get to 600K. That's brutal.
at $37/unit, you'd be cranking out nearly 1400 units/mo to get to 600K. Assuming 6.5 units/hr for regular cases (obviously if there's lots of spine or EP, this might be a low estimate), that's 210 hrs/mo, or about 50 hrs/week, every week, not counting any vacation, to get to 600K. That's brutal.
I never said any of those places had a $37 unit value. Some places have a $50+ unit value, others pay hourly, and most have call stipends on top.
When I say decent lifestyle, I’m talking 40ish hours/week, 1-2 overnight calls/month, and 6-8 weeks vacation.
That’s not good. Now I’m not expecting every job to have 20/26 weeks off like I post aboutI never said any of those places had a $37 unit value. Some places have a $50+ unit value, others pay hourly, and most have call stipends on top.
When I say decent lifestyle, I’m talking 40ish hours/week, 1-2 overnight calls/month, and 6-8 weeks vacation.
But it should come with at least one week off a month or closer to 12 weeks off
Every week off is worth a min 15k these days (or more)
But hey if people are happy working 44-46 weeks a year for 600k plus 9.25% state income taxes. You can’t put a price on happiness. Administrations loves happy anesthesiologists. Especially those who don’t know any better.
Laat i heard..hoag was around 48-50. No call stipend. No pay for blocks.I never said any of those places had a $37 unit value. Some places have a $50+ unit value, others pay hourly, and most have call stipends on top.
When I say decent lifestyle, I’m talking 40ish hours/week, 1-2 overnight calls/month, and 6-8 weeks vacation.
Most places require more than 1-2 calls per month in order to reach that level.
So if you take 6-8 weeks off per your example..then you would need 1200 units per month during the other months. Thats 60 units per day. Thats a busy day. So you would need a very consistent heavy daily workload to reach that. Unlikely
You would need multiple call days to make up for the slow lineups.
That’s not good. Now I’m not expecting every job to have 20/26 weeks off like I post about
But it should come with at least one week off a month or closer to 12 weeks off
Every week off is worth a min 15k these days (or more)
Your perception of decent income and work-life balance isn’t grounded in reality for most of us. Also if you do the math, 44 weeks at $15k/week is $660k.
Laat i heard..hoag was around 48-50. No call stipend. No pay for blocks.
Most places require more than 1-2 calls per month in order to reach that level.
So if you take 6-8 weeks off per your example..then you would need 1200 units per month during the other months. Thats 60 units per day. Thats a busy day. So you would need a very consistent heavy daily workload to reach that. Unlikely
You would need multiple call days to make up for the slow lineups.
You are both uninformed and misinformed. I’m not going to argue compensation or schedule with you, but what I have said above regarding those three places is correct.
Also I am now recalling you having this odd fixation on block reimbursement. It doesn’t matter at any of the places I’ve mentioned.
Yes, there is a fixation on blocks because its a huge factor in compensation.Your perception of decent income and work-life balance isn’t grounded in reality for most of us. Also if you do the math, 44 weeks at $15k/week is $660k.
You are both uninformed and misinformed. I’m not going to argue compensation or schedule with you, but what I have said above regarding those three places is correct.
Also I am now recalling you having this odd fixation on block reimbursement. It doesn’t matter at any of the places I’ve mentioned.
2 hr shoulder scope:
$40 unit base with 8 units for a block
5 unit plus 8 units time
= $840
$50 with 2 units per block
Same 13 units for the case and time
= $750
You would need a $56 unit value to break even. So block compensation matters immensely. I havent seen any places offer a $56 base unit in OC to new hires
Whether insurance pays for it or not is irrelevant to the individual anesthesiologist
We have interviewed many folks from those groups.
60 units of straight work is a busy day. Thats 5-6 cases (5 units startup) with NO gaps. If you are only working 40 hrs per week. Thats pretty hard to get consistently and 1 call per month wont balance out the slow days.
Outside of the locums arrangements at hospitals with high turnover..its not common at all
W2 arrangements may suggest higher numbers...but you'll get hammered with taxes
Yes, there is a fixation on blocks because its a huge factor in compensation.
It’s a huge factor in your group compensation model, but not every group is the same. It matters less elsewhere.
2 hr shoulder scope:
$40 unit base with 8 units for a block
5 unit plus 8 units time
= $840
$50 with 2 units per block
Same 13 units for the case and time
= $750
You would need a $56 unit value to break even. So block compensation matters immensely. I havent seen any places offer a $56 base unit in OC to new hires
Cool. So on a day with 3 shoulders, you're making $90/case more, or $270 more for entire day. But the reality is you're not doing ortho cases or blocks every day... you maybe do one day per week.
So let's say the next day you do 3 robot choles at 15 units a piece (7 for startup, 8 for time). You're now making $150 less per case, or $450 less over the entire day. Let's go do a day in outpatient GI and knock out 8 cases in 4 hours (4 uppers at 7 units/case and 4 lowers at 6 units/case, so 52 units total). You're making $520 less on that day.
So now do you see how in the grand scheme of things block compensation shouldn't matter much? If anything, your system is less fair because it overvalues a few specific rooms too much and makes it difficult to create parity throughout the group. I have worked in both systems and made significantly more in the one that doesn't pad their procedure units.
Whether insurance pays for it or not is irrelevant to the individual anesthesiologist
We have interviewed many folks from those groups.
60 units of straight work is a busy day. Thats 5-6 cases (5 units startup) with NO gaps. If you are only working 40 hrs per week. Thats pretty hard to get consistently and 1 call per month wont balance out the slow days.
Outside of the locums arrangements at hospitals with high turnover..its not common at all
You keep missing the forest for the trees and don’t seem to believe the numbers I’m telling you. Maybe you should reach out these groups and see for yourself, but the fact is the OC market has caught up a lot over the last few years. The places I have mentioned above average over $600k with a decent lifestyle. If you want to hustle and work 50+ hour weeks then you'll make $800k+. That's the reality of the market here these days.
W2 arrangements may suggest higher numbers...but you'll get hammered with taxes
No place is a true W2. The groups that pay as W2 run expenses through a corporation similar to 1099, so the most of the tax benefits are still there.
If you are happy and content.Your perception of decent income and work-life balance isn’t grounded in reality for most of us. Also if you do the math, 44 weeks at $15k/week is $660k.
You are both uninformed and misinformed. I’m not going to argue compensation or schedule with you, but what I have said above regarding those three places is correct.
Also I am now recalling you having this odd fixation on block reimbursement. It doesn’t matter at any of the places I’ve mentioned.
if you are happy with ur compensation and work load model. That’s all that matters.It’s a huge factor in your group compensation model, but not every group is the same. It matters less elsewhere.
Cool. So on a day with 3 shoulders, you're making $90/case more, or $270 more for entire day. But the reality is you're not doing ortho cases or blocks every day... you maybe do one day per week.
So let's say the next day you do 3 robot choles at 15 units a piece (7 for startup, 8 for time). You're now making $150 less per case, or $450 less over the entire day. Let's go do a day in outpatient GI and knock out 8 cases in 4 hours (4 uppers at 7 units/case and 4 lowers at 6 units/case, so 52 units total). You're making $520 less on that day.
So now do you see how in the grand scheme of things block compensation shouldn't matter much? If anything, your system is less fair because it overvalues a few specific rooms too much and makes it difficult to create parity throughout the group. I have worked in both systems and made significantly more in the one that doesn't pad their procedure units.
You keep missing the forest for the trees and don’t seem to believe the numbers I’m telling you. Maybe you should reach out these groups and see for yourself, but the fact is the OC market has caught up a lot over the last few years. The places I have mentioned above average over $600k with a decent lifestyle. If you want to hustle and work 50+ hour weeks then you'll make $800k+. That's the reality of the market here these days.
No place is a true W2. The groups that pay as W2 run expenses through a corporation similar to 1099, so the most of the tax benefits are still there.
Me personally. I can’t stand working past 12pm these days for full pay. I’m at the gym by 11am half the time at my regular day. Or picking up my kids by 230p
That the lifestyle most people think about when you mention lifestyle jobs. Not just weeks off. But being out by mommy track hours to pickup kids and make dinner or run errands for them.
I hope I have some real short days because working 7-3 or longer each day is painful.
Arch Guillotti
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All the time. More business than we know what to do with.Honest question. Do people really still work 6-10
Hrs daily anymore at their regular jobs? 42-46 weeks a year? Like 16- 20 weekdays a month?? Excluding standard vacation time. Excluding those who do part time work.
I could never do that anymore.
I think I'm conflating two posts; someone above said Envision was paying $37/unit...I never said any of those places had a $37 unit value. Some places have a $50+ unit value, others pay hourly, and most have call stipends on top.
When I say decent lifestyle, I’m talking 40ish hours/week, 1-2 overnight calls/month, and 6-8 weeks vacation.
cittykat
Full Member
I think I'm conflating two posts; someone above said Envision was paying $37/unit...
I know of one place where the unit value was in the low $30s with a small very inefficient OR. They probably averaged about 5-600units/month. Hospital took over billing and collections and they are paid by an hourly coverage/availability model with the hospital. Don’t know how long it will last but they now make 2.5x what they made as a private practice.
Yes because I like moneyHonest question. Do people really still work 6-10
Hrs daily anymore at their regular jobs? 42-46 weeks a year? Like 16- 20 weekdays a month?? Excluding standard vacation time. Excluding those who do part time work.
I could never do that anymore.
but apparently people are doing it for only 600-650k 5 days a week plus calls for 44-46 weeks a year.Yes because I like money
That would be brutal I like money working and god I hope they are only working 7-3 for that money instead of longer hours.
I'm confused by the "excluding part time work." By definition, if you aren't regularly working those hours (lets say 7-3, 5 days a week minimum), aren't you a part time worker? lol So I imagine most "Full time anesthesiologists" work those hours.Honest question. Do people really still work 6-10
Hrs daily anymore at their regular jobs? 42-46 weeks a year? Like 16- 20 weekdays a month?? Excluding standard vacation time. Excluding those who do part time work.
I could never do that anymore.
As far as your comment regarding 7-3, 5 days a week making "only" 600-650k: What group in LA/OC offers this pay and life style without having to constantly do locums (which is a pain for some people or if you have a family and stationed). I am not aware of such gig in LA/OC (Academia, big PP groups, kaiser, county, or other big hospitals).
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