OC/LA Groups (Sanitized Version)

[Maverikk]

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Since their pension is tied to their base pay this likely reflects the 'bonus'...this was paid out for 50hrs a week instead of 40 and more call. It was the variable they could control since increasing base would substantially increase the pension. I know a few years back instead of getting a dividend bonus at the end of the year the SCPMG had to pay in because they were doing so bad financially, ie the partners all had to payback a few thousand. If you look into it they usually interview you and if you pass they give you the salary/benefits/bonus info, they were very transparent. The range is competitive for the area, the question will be are the hours/call. Most of the scpmg are hiring locums, like most Kaisers on the west coast they have their system where you need someone in the Kaiser system to vouch for you or you get hired on as full time per diem and get an offer if they like you. I think in this job market the system has probably faltered they were a behind with raising salaries, my friends in the LA kaiser said they're really scrambling to fill positions and getting way less applicants, don't know what their contract looks like nowadays, 600 would be the bare minimum for a single person to live somewhere comfortably in LA, that is with a nice apt/condo, can always live on less depending on your 5-10 year plan.

 

[Ezekiel2517]

TPMG has historically paid better than SCPMG but nowadays their listed ranges are lower (400s). This doesn’t seem right. One of our experienced pediatric cardiac guys moved to Oakland Kaiser because they made him an “offer he couldn’t refuse”. Maybe the site is not up to date.

The Permanente Medical Group of Northern California

A multispecialty medical group of 9,500 physicians who deliver world-class medical care to 4.6 million Kaiser Permanente members in Northern and Central California.

northerncalifornia.permanente.org

SCPMG currently advertises these ranges for subspecialists.

General 544-627
Cardiac 568-601
Pain 399–567
Peds 660-721

I think the TPMG starting salary numbers are likely accurate. The main recruiter for anesthesia for TPMG is typically on top of things. With starting salaries in the low-mid 400’s, this would mean total comp (including pension value) is around the mid 900’s imo. So yah, either the SCPMG salaries got crazy good or they’re including something in there we’re not aware of

 

[sloh]

Mid 900’s? Don’t think the pension is that great

 

[Coffee PRN]

Since their pension is tied to their base pay this likely reflects the 'bonus'...this was paid out for 50hrs a week instead of 40 and more call. It was the variable they could control since increasing base would substantially increase the pension. I know a few years back instead of getting a dividend bonus at the end of the year the SCPMG had to pay in because they were doing so bad financially, ie the partners all had to payback a few thousand. If you look into it they usually interview you and if you pass they give you the salary/benefits/bonus info, they were very transparent. The range is competitive for the area, the question will be are the hours/call. Most of the scpmg are hiring locums, like most Kaisers on the west coast they have their system where you need someone in the Kaiser system to vouch for you or you get hired on as full time per diem and get an offer if they like you. I think in this job market the system has probably faltered they were a behind with raising salaries, my friends in the LA kaiser said they're really scrambling to fill positions and getting way less applicants, don't know what their contract looks like nowadays, 600 would be the bare minimum for a single person to live somewhere comfortably in LA, that is with a nice apt/condo, can always live on less depending on your 5-10 year plan.

I know LA is expensive, but surely you could live comfortably there in a nice apartment for far less than 600k a year if you are assuming no kids/spouse...

 

[Ezekiel2517]

Mid 900’s? Don’t think the pension is that great

I'm not saying I value it like that. I'm saying this is the value Kaiser is putting on their benefits/pension/etc as a whole. When they offer you a job, they break down all the number estimates for you, including salary for a set number of hours worked, overtime pay, partner bonuses, vacation accrual, total comp, etc. The value they put on their total benefits package including pension is in the 400-500k range.

 

[NitroS]

You will get crushed with w2 taxes at kaiser Southern California division. A 700k w2 Kaiser job is equivalent to a 600k 1099 job in California. As weird as that sounds. Especially if you have a spouse with healthcare benefits already.

Kaiser SoCal is 1099. Kaiser NorCal is w2.

 

[aneftp]

Kaiser SoCal is 1099. Kaiser NorCal is w2.

So the pensions suck now. My sister in law pension after 20 years is around 60% of her salary. Los Angeles

I think the pensions are closer to 30-40%? Of salary after 20 years.

 

[Maverikk]

Yeah they’re about 30% after a 20 year vest period if i remember correctly, 40 I think if 30 years. The few people I know who went either went after <10 yrs in PP and were aiming for the 20yr vest period and few were at the tail of their career in PP and wanted 10yr for a solid pension on top of their 401k. Getting people to think in terms of 5/10/20 year plans is hard but important. Kaiser vacation at 5.5 weeks is tough though but if you’ve middle schoolers and live in SoCal can probably do long weekends at the beach anyway.

600k is definitely doable in LA…it’s just what you get, people focus on one end number, the top number too (not the bottom one after taxes/overhead, which is way more important especially if you invest). You might get a decent condo, not close to the beach, starting at around 1M…I have two friends who are nurses there and love it, 90k a year, they go out a lot and enjoy the city, good for them. But is it worth it long term, they pay little into retirement, will never have equity on property. I never say it but ask any nurse working over 60yo what they could change. It’s all about having a balance that works for you and also having short and long term plans with clear goals and knowing when you have to say f*** it and uproot yourself, don’t be afraid to change

 

[nimbus]

Is there a link to the Kaiser locums gig paying 500+/hr?

I believe this is for Kaiser peds. Still not $500/hr.

 

[nimbus]

I have two friends who are nurses there and love it, 90k a year, they go out a lot and enjoy the city, good for them.

They must not work in a hospital. Ours start at 120k for new grads.

 

[Maverikk]

Might be LA too, one does a psych floor and another inpatient med floor. And this was a few years ago when they first moved…they’re union and get COLA, great benefits they don’t use. Both still live in one room shared houses (shared bathrooms/kitchens), mostly bc they’re single/no kids, but still close to 2k/room. One has told me as soon as she marries she’s dragging her husband to Utah or NV for the taxes/COL/family close by but loves LA for now, we’re close friends from college so she divulges

 

[nimbus]

Might be LA too, one does a psych floor and another inpatient med floor. And this was a few years ago when they first moved…they’re union and get COLA, great benefits they don’t use. Both still live in one room shared houses (shared bathrooms/kitchens), mostly bc they’re single/no kids, but still close to 2k/room. One has told me as soon as she marries she’s dragging her husband to Utah or NV for the taxes/COL/family close by but loves LA for now, we’re close friends from college so she divulges

Most places got big raises during the pandemic. During that time we had 70% travelers. Now we have none.

 

[sloh]

I know LA is expensive, but surely you could live comfortably there in a nice apartment for far less than 600k a year if you are assuming no kids/spouse...

Most anesthesiologists don’t want to live a bachelor’s life indefinitely though.

 

[Coffee PRN]

Most anesthesiologists don’t want to live a bachelor’s life indefinitely though.

Then they can move after they’ve had their fun.

 

[<(^_^)>]

I'm not saying I value it like that. I'm saying this is the value Kaiser is putting on their benefits/pension/etc as a whole. When they offer you a job, they break down all the number estimates for you, including salary for a set number of hours worked, overtime pay, partner bonuses, vacation accrual, total comp, etc. The value they put on their total benefits package including pension is in the 400-500k range.

Total benefits are dramatically inflated virtually always. Biggest scam is the pension, because younger docs don’t realize how much money they’ll have just by maxing 401k alone. The answer is about 7M in today’s dollars over a 30 year career. If you converted that to a pension that’s about 535k a year (7.5% rates). The famed Kaiser pension is 2% a year for 20 years and 1% a year for next 10, so 50% base (which is usually 2/3 actual $ being paid to you). So say 400k base, 200k bonuses/retirement cash in 403b etc.

So your pension is 50% of 400k. Aka 200k a year. Not even half as good as maxing your 401k. Unless things changed in the last 5 years or so.

This isn’t a critique of Kaiser by the way, just a critique of pensions and how they can dazzle young docs that don’t realize how much their $$ will grow over 30+ years.

I would say the pension is worth about 40k a year, and that’s generous. Good private practice groups you can roll your own (superior) pension too.

 

[Ezekiel2517]

Total benefits are dramatically inflated virtually always. Biggest scam is the pension, because younger docs don’t realize how much money they’ll have just by maxing 401k alone. The answer is about 7M in today’s dollars over a 30 year career. If you converted that to a pension that’s about 535k a year (7.5% rates). The famed Kaiser pension is 2% a year for 20 years and 1% a year for next 10, so 50% base (which is usually 2/3 actual $ being paid to you). So say 400k base, 200k bonuses/retirement cash in 403b etc.

So your pension is 50% of 400k. Aka 200k a year. Not even half as good as maxing your 401k. Unless things changed in the last 5 years or so.

This isn’t a critique of Kaiser by the way, just a critique of pensions and how they can dazzle young docs that don’t realize how much their $$ will grow over 30+ years.

I would say the pension is worth about 40k a year, and that’s generous. Good private practice groups you can roll your own (superior) pension too.

Yes, I agree they are inflated. The best things about kaiser jobs imo are probably the amount of vacation one can accrue (basically paid vacation) and the lifestyle/work hours.

 

[sloh]

Total benefits are dramatically inflated virtually always. Biggest scam is the pension, because younger docs don’t realize how much money they’ll have just by maxing 401k alone. The answer is about 7M in today’s dollars over a 30 year career. If you converted that to a pension that’s about 535k a year (7.5% rates). The famed Kaiser pension is 2% a year for 20 years and 1% a year for next 10, so 50% base (which is usually 2/3 actual $ being paid to you). So say 400k base, 200k bonuses/retirement cash in 403b etc.

So your pension is 50% of 400k. Aka 200k a year. Not even half as good as maxing your 401k. Unless things changed in the last 5 years or so.

This isn’t a critique of Kaiser by the way, just a critique of pensions and how they can dazzle young docs that don’t realize how much their $$ will grow over 30+ years.

I would say the pension is worth about 40k a year, and that’s generous. Good private practice groups you can roll your own (superior) pension too.

How much more do you think an anesthesiologist should make where it financially makes more sense to strike out on their own in pp? Accounting for benefits and pension, I’d say the benefits and pension are only worth 100k.

 

[<(^_^)>]

Yes, I agree they are inflated. The best things about kaiser jobs imo are probably the amount of vacation one can accrue (basically paid vacation) and the lifestyle/work hours.

I don’t really understand paid vacation as a benefit or not. A lot of PP jobs are collection based, but we say “ok you’ll average 600k with 10 weeks vacation” or whatever the figures might be. So those weeks are unpaid in a way, but at the same time not different than paid vacation + salary at 600k. The phenomenon of unpaid vacation with a salary is just so unusual to me (aka you take a month off you don’t get paid a month).

How much more do you think an anesthesiologist should make where it financially makes more sense to strike out on their own in pp? Accounting for benefits and pension, I’d say the benefits and pension are only worth 100k.

That sounds roughly accurate. The benefits are good, but even good benefits don’t move the needle dramatically for anesthesiologists. This isn’t like a union job that pays 40 an hour with an insane pension + 401k + healthcare that almost doubles the effective wage.

 

[aneftp]

Total benefits are dramatically inflated virtually always. Biggest scam is the pension, because younger docs don’t realize how much money they’ll have just by maxing 401k alone. The answer is about 7M in today’s dollars over a 30 year career. If you converted that to a pension that’s about 535k a year (7.5% rates). The famed Kaiser pension is 2% a year for 20 years and 1% a year for next 10, so 50% base (which is usually 2/3 actual $ being paid to you). So say 400k base, 200k bonuses/retirement cash in 403b etc.

So your pension is 50% of 400k. Aka 200k a year. Not even half as good as maxing your 401k. Unless things changed in the last 5 years or so.

This isn’t a critique of Kaiser by the way, just a critique of pensions and how they can dazzle young docs that don’t realize how much their $$ will grow over 30+ years.

I would say the pension is worth about 40k a year, and that’s generous. Good private practice groups you can roll your own (superior) pension too.

Pension is not a scam under the old system

Remember pensions requirements change over time

Kaiser pre 2008? Hires contributed much less and the payout was much more I think. My sister in law is under the old Kaiser pension systems

Same thing with the federal govt Those who started before Dec 31 2012 only contribute 0.8% of their salary to the federal pension. The newer hires contribute 4.4%. That’s almost 6X as the old people.

There is a reason the older people stay. They pay less into the system and get more out.

 

[aneftp]

I don’t really understand paid vacation as a benefit or not. A lot of PP jobs are collection based, but we say “ok you’ll average 600k with 10 weeks vacation” or whatever the figures might be. So those weeks are unpaid in a way, but at the same time not different than paid vacation + salary at 600k. The phenomenon of unpaid vacation with a salary is just so unusual to me (aka you take a month off you don’t get paid a month).

That sounds roughly accurate. The benefits are good, but even good benefits don’t move the needle dramatically for anesthesiologists. This isn’t like a union job that pays 40 an hour with an insane pension + 401k + healthcare that almost doubles the effective wage.

You want production base. Which is fine except anesthesia production is too dependent on case load and surgeon availability.

You can be available to work 24 hrs and no surgeon available. You make close to zero or whatever the hospital subsidy for call coverage is.

 

[circleK]

I don’t really understand paid vacation as a benefit or not. A lot of PP jobs are collection based, but we say “ok you’ll average 600k with 10 weeks vacation” or whatever the figures might be. So those weeks are unpaid in a way, but at the same time not different than paid vacation + salary at 600k. The phenomenon of unpaid vacation with a salary is just so unusual to me (aka you take a month off you don’t get paid a month).

Yep. We are employed but paid per shift (as are many employed positions), and I have to remind everyone in my group that there is no PTO. Your vacation weeks are just TO. We’re guaranteed a certain amount of TO, but there ain’t no PTO. Your “salary” is just a draw based on your expected number of shifts.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

Yes, I agree they are inflated. The best things about kaiser jobs imo are probably the amount of vacation one can accrue (basically paid vacation) and the lifestyle/work hours.

Go ahead and try to take all that “accrued” vacation, you’d be surprised how little flexibility that extra time gives you in a practice that isn’t running super fat