Od-pa?

[ProZackMI]

Are there any ODs out there who are also PA-Cs? If not, has anyone heard of any OD/PA programs? What is the general concensus about such a combined program? Also, a friend of mine who teachs as an adjunct at Ferris State University's PharmD program told me that the university was considering a combined PharmD/OD program. What are your thoughts on these combined programs?

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[Hines302]

Are there any ODs out there who are also PA-Cs? If not, has anyone heard of any OD/PA programs? What is the general concensus about such a combined program? Also, a friend of mine who teachs as an adjunct at Ferris State University's PharmD program told me that the university was considering a combined PharmD/OD program. What are your thoughts on these combined programs?

I have not heard of any OD/PA programs... nore any PharmD/OD programs. I struggle to understand what would be the point to such a program?

 

[drgregory]

I struggle to understand what would be the point to such a program?

the point would be so that when working at walmart the pharmacist/OD could just walk over and do an exam between dispensing meds. sorry, i dont mean that, but this thread was just begging for it.

 

[J.opt]

the point would be so that when working at walmart the pharmacist/OD could just walk over and do an exam between dispensing meds. sorry, i dont mean that, but this thread was just begging for it.

I was thinking the same thing

 

[r_salis]

I don't see how OD and PharmD credentials would be very compatible -- maybe if you wanted to create a niche for yourself in industry working for pharmaceutical companies as a ophthalmologic drug consultant.

An OD and an MBA is a combo that makes more financial sense if you're planning to be running your own practice after you graduate.

 

[rpames]

I don't see how OD and PharmD credentials would be very compatible -- maybe if you wanted to create a niche for yourself in industry working for pharmaceutical companies as a ophthalmologic drug consultant.

An OD and an MBA is a combo that makes more financial sense if you're planning to be running your own practice after you graduate.

ICO has been playing with the idea of a OD/business program. I don't think they are going to jump into a OD/MBA anytime soon, but they are toying with the idea of additional elective that will follow a specific track and lead to some kind of degree/certification in the end. Currently there a electives we can take which address business issues and gives good info, but they are all independent of each other.

I'm not sure of the licensing a PA gets, but I know they work with MD/DO's and they can write a script and order tests under the physicians license. I really don't see how such a thing would help OD's. In many states, ODs can write oral med and others, if they work closely with an OMD, they can write it and the OMD will sign it later. I just don't see the advantage.

I especially don't see any advantage to the OD/PharmD. If you write a script, you can't fill it, or even own the pharmacy. I guess if you only want to work corporate, it would be a good combo.

 

[Drill2Fill]

lol!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[deleted6669]

there are a few pharmd/pa programs out there and if there is a niche for those folks who is to say that od/pa wouldn't work?
an od/pa could work with an ophthalmologist doing preop/post-op/1st assist work better than an ophtho pa without the additional training...and there are ophtho pa's out there.....

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

there are a few pharmd/pa programs out there and if there is a niche for those folks who is to say that od/pa wouldn't work?
an od/pa could work with an ophthalmologist doing preop/post-op/1st assist work better than an ophtho pa without the additional training...and there are ophtho pa's out there.....

The trick is, I think that a full OD degree is probably overkill to assist an MD. Could they do it? Sure, probably very well. But why go through 4 years OD school + PA training just to be an assistant, when the OD allows you to practice on your own.

 

[Hines302]

Are PA's trained better in systemic diseases than OD's??

I know this issue has been brought up before that the current ciriculum doesnt teach systemic diseases well. Do some schools do a better job teach systemic diseases than others?

 

[r_salis]

Are PA's trained better in systemic diseases than OD's??

(From Wikipedia) A Physician Assistant is a "non-physician licensed to practice medicine with a physician's supervision," so they certainly should receive better training in systemic disease than ODs.

 

[cpw]

I know one doc who's an OD/RPh (she graduated before mandatory pharmd) She left pharmacy to go to OD school and now she does a LOT of CE lectures in Texas.

 

[rpames]

It is impossible for any one to say if a PA or OD is better trained in systemic disease unless one of us did both programs. But considering OD is 2 years beyond what a PA does, I would think OD have a pretty extensive training.

 

[ProZackMI]

It is impossible for any one to say if a PA or OD is better trained in systemic disease unless one of us did both programs. But considering OD is 2 years beyond what a PA does, I would think OD have a pretty extensive training.

In ocular path and science, but not systemic path and assessment. My guess is that PAs are much better trained in general comprehensive med than an OD would be. An OD/PA might be a good combo or something to consider. The thing is, you can argue that it would be overkill or unnecessary training, and in most cases, you'd be right, but having an additional credential that enhances your role as an OD makes you that much more marketable.

An OD-PA would not necessarily have to be subservient to an MD. You can maintain your own OD practice, yet delve more into medical care than most ODs. Any extra training you have makes you that much more unique. I'm not sure that an OD-PharmD would be practical, but it would certainly make you a very knowledgeable optometrist. Also, it's wrong to assume all PharmDs fill scripts. Many PharmDs are clinical pharmacists, not retail pharmacists, and many have post doc residencies. So, an OD with a PharmD may combine the functions of the jobs, serve in an academic role, or be on staff at a hospital. The options are there, just not always apparent.

I'm sure there are probably a few OD-JDs out there too. It would make an excellent combination for some who wish to enhance their career possibilities.

 

[still_confused]

so extra training and credentials will make one more marketable? 😴

instead of trying to come up with combined programs and walmart saving tips , the optometry community should be coming up with ideas on how to have all ODs practice full scope in all states.

 

[stompy]

so extra training and credentials will make one more marketable? 😴

instead of trying to come up with combined programs and walmart saving tips , the optometry community should be coming up with ideas on how to have all ODs practice full scope in all states.

How would you define "full scope"?

 

[still_confused]

How would you define "full scope"?

ill let you know after i graduate from optometry school and actually know what was taught / wasnt taught and how its applied in everyday practice. as of right now, full scope means what we are taught in school, nothing less and certianly nothing more. and we also need a unifed scope, and my definition of "unified" is every state having the same regulations regarding optometrist

what is your definition?

 

[stompy]

ill let you know after i graduate from optometry school and actually know what was taught / wasnt taught and how its applied in everyday practice. as of right now, full scope means what we are taught in school, nothing less and certianly nothing more. and we also need a unifed scope, and my definition of "unified" is every state having the same regulations regarding optometrist

what is your definition?

Oh...I actually didn't know how to define "full scope".

 

[drgregory]

i have nothing against PAs, but coincidentally I just saw a PA who presented with acute sulfa corneal toxicity. she self-Rx'd sulfacetamide 10% for her "pink eye", dosed at q 2 hours, which, naturally, is now swollen shut. why are PAs treating eye infections with sulfacetamide? or was it the physician she works with?
when i told her she was having a toxic reaction, she said "impossible - i'm not allergic to sulfa". i then said "your probably not allergic to rubbing alcohol either, but dump a little of that in your eye and you'll understand what the word toxicity means". on her way out, i told her that ophthalmologists and optometrists are meant to treat eye infections, not physician's assistants. maybe i'm just an errogant eye doctor, but i cringe a little when i see as something as idiotic as this going on in some of these minute clinics (idiotic = using sulfacetamide 10% gtts q 2 hours). makes me wonder what happens in a systemic situation when someone goes to one of these places with a little "indigestion", gets recommended an OTC prilosec by a physician's assistant, and a then on the way home loses sensation in their arm....
i'm not stabbing at physician's assistants, i'm just saying they are no substitution for a physician. they can serve as a great gateway to other healthcare providers, but they should not be independent providers (hence the word assistant).

 

[blazenmadison]

they can serve as a great gateway to other healthcare providers, but they should not be independent providers (hence the word assistant).

One of my friends asked for malaria prevention (going to the tropics) from her PA. Instead she was being treated FOR malaria. She had blurred vision and felt extremely sick. Apparently the PA looked up the wrong information, etc.

 

[xmattODx]

One of my friends asked for malaria prevention (going to the tropics) from her PA. Instead she was being treated FOR malaria. She had blurred vision and felt extremely sick. Apparently the PA looked up the wrong information, etc.

I don't think this is a fair conversation in regard to our PA colleagues. Don't we, as optometrists, get angry when the mis-step of one of our colleagues is used as evidence to our lack of knowledge and ability?

I've thought a little about going back to school to get a PA. I'm not going to but it would work nicely with my MPH degree as I know as an Optometrist I have little to no understanding of basic medicine.

 

[rpames]

I know as an Optometrist I have little to no understanding of basic medicine.

Do you really mean that?

 

[xmattODx]

Do you really mean that?

Yes. If you are really honest with yourself you'd admit it as well. Do you know how to treat diabetes? Hypertension? You may know the text book answer but with no experience we really know nothing. Optometrists are not physicians and in terms of knowledge of medicine are far from even qualifying as physician assistants.

 

[Hines302]

i have nothing against PAs, but coincidentally I just saw a PA who presented with acute sulfa corneal toxicity. she self-Rx'd sulfacetamide 10% for her "pink eye", dosed at q 2 hours, which, naturally, is now swollen shut. why are PAs treating eye infections with sulfacetamide? or was it the physician she works with?
when i told her she was having a toxic reaction, she said "impossible - i'm not allergic to sulfa". i then said "your probably not allergic to rubbing alcohol either, but dump a little of that in your eye and you'll understand what the word toxicity means". on her way out, i told her that ophthalmologists and optometrists are meant to treat eye infections, not physician's assistants. maybe i'm just an errogant eye doctor, but i cringe a little when i see as something as idiotic as this going on in some of these minute clinics (idiotic = using sulfacetamide 10% gtts q 2 hours). makes me wonder what happens in a systemic situation when someone goes to one of these places with a little "indigestion", gets recommended an OTC prilosec by a physician's assistant, and a then on the way home loses sensation in their arm....
i'm not stabbing at physician's assistants, i'm just saying they are no substitution for a physician. they can serve as a great gateway to other healthcare providers, but they should not be independent providers (hence the word assistant).

Thanks for the post... but lets be careful. If you make a couple adjustments to your statement it could read very closely to the things an OMD would say about an OD.

 

[ProZackMI]

i have nothing against PAs, but coincidentally I just saw a PA who presented with acute sulfa corneal toxicity. she self-Rx'd sulfacetamide 10% for her "pink eye", dosed at q 2 hours, which, naturally, is now swollen shut. why are PAs treating eye infections with sulfacetamide? or was it the physician she works with?
when i told her she was having a toxic reaction, she said "impossible - i'm not allergic to sulfa". i then said "your probably not allergic to rubbing alcohol either, but dump a little of that in your eye and you'll understand what the word toxicity means". on her way out, i told her that ophthalmologists and optometrists are meant to treat eye infections, not physician's assistants. maybe i'm just an errogant eye doctor, but i cringe a little when i see as something as idiotic as this going on in some of these minute clinics (idiotic = using sulfacetamide 10% gtts q 2 hours). makes me wonder what happens in a systemic situation when someone goes to one of these places with a little "indigestion", gets recommended an OTC prilosec by a physician's assistant, and a then on the way home loses sensation in their arm....
i'm not stabbing at physician's assistants, i'm just saying they are no substitution for a physician. they can serve as a great gateway to other healthcare providers, but they should not be independent providers (hence the word assistant).

It's arrogant and you're. 🙂 Sorry.

It's probably her MD/DO that let her on to that pharamcological faux pas. You'd be surprised what we docs don't know! It sounds like you set her straight.

 

[ProZackMI]

I don't think this is a fair conversation in regard to our PA colleagues. Don't we, as optometrists, get angry when the mis-step of one of our colleagues is used as evidence to our lack of knowledge and ability?

I've thought a little about going back to school to get a PA. I'm not going to but it would work nicely with my MPH degree as I know as an Optometrist I have little to no understanding of basic medicine.

An MPH degree would be a great supplement to an OD. There's a lot you could do with the combination. It's also nice to see that you know your limitations. I'm an MD, but in my speciality (psych.), I admit there's much I've forgotten and would decline treating certain conditions based on my diminished knowledge base in certain areas. Good post.

 

[drgregory]

It's arrogant and you're. 🙂 Sorry.

It's probably her MD/DO that let her on to that pharamcological faux pas. You'd be surprised what we docs don't know! It sounds like you set her straight.

i feel a little bad about the whole "see your ophthalmologist or optometrist thing" now, but at the time i assumed she just grabbed an Rx pad without checking with her supervising physician - she busts out her PDA and first thing that comes up is sulfacetamide 10% (first thing that comes up because its probably the first thing that was conjured up as an ophthalmic antibiotic back in 1951). i guess i'm just (a)errrogant 😀 and holding on to my tiny little realm of eye care too tightly, and when anyone other than a physician and an OD play eye doctor i get angry.
youre going to have to start charging me for this self inspection ProZackMI.

 

[ProZackMI]

i feel a little bad about the whole "see your ophthalmologist or optometrist thing" now, but at the time i assumed she just grabbed an Rx pad without checking with her supervising physician - she busts out her PDA and first thing that comes up is sulfacetamide 10% (first thing that comes up because its probably the first thing that was conjured up as an ophthalmic antibiotic back in 1951). i guess i'm just (a)errrogant 😀 and holding on to my tiny little realm of eye care too tightly, and when anyone other than a physician and an OD play eye doctor i get angry.
youre going to have to start charging me for this self inspection ProZackMI.

I think your reaction is justified, doc. Your assumption is probably correct. You're not arrogant, nor were you out of line. You are a primary care vision specialist and she is not. PAs know a great deal of superficial medicine, but lack depth in their understanding of medical matters, including pharmacological management and tx.

Think about like this, you're an OD. What does that mean? DOCTOR of Optometry means you're a health care practitioner, but it also means that you're a teacher (doctor = teacher in Latin). Whether you are a medical doctor, PhD, DVM, PharmD, JD, OD, DDS, etc., we all engage in a modicum of teaching. I teach my patients how to control their anger, manage their anxiety, suppress their emotions, release their emotions, etc. You teach your patients how to insert their CL, how to strengthen their eyes, how to care for their glasses, how to cope with vision loss, how to administer topical abx, etc. You are not only a health care provider, but you are a teacher; it's part of your role as a health care practitioner.

So, consider your comment to that presumptuous self-prescribing PA to be an illustrative lesson by a competent professional.

I think the biggest challenge optometry has, besides increased medical authority, is the education of the general public and medical community about your services and skills. It's like many opt posters have noted, many physicians (myself included), have difficulty seeing ODs as primary care providers. I'm still trying to overcome my misconception/misperception that all ODs do (or can do) is refract and Rx corrective lenses. Also, many people out there see you guys as retail/commercial professionals who are more like opticians than physicians. With time, I think this will change, but it's going to take an effort on the part of practicing ODs, especially the younger ones who will possess greater medical skills than before.