OD vs. MD

[alleigh79]

I have been working as a tech in optometry/opthalmology for about 5 yrs. I love my job and I love EYES! The OD that I currently work for encourgage me to go back to school for optometry (I'm 27 so had never even considered trying to begin college with 2 kids in tow). So I am back in school....

My question/problem...
I love the medical aspects of my job. I love the retina, I love the OCT, I love the cornea, ect. I enjoy refracting and contact lenses but not quite as much as the other.

The doc that I work for has a very good set up. We have no full time MD's in our town/county. He has a very medically oriented practice, is able to bill most any med. insurance he wants (only accepts 1 vision plan - Eyemed) and then 1x a week a MD comes and does sx consults and pre-ops. This works very well and this is the type of practice is what I would like to work in. But ~ how typical is this?

I know alot of people (and insurance companies) don't believe that OD's are as capable of managing disease as MD's. Because I like the medical part of optometry so much, I am questioning whether I should go to medical school. Medical school is not my first choice because I don't want to have a Dr./patient relationship like most of the MD's I have worked with (also can begin practicing much sooner if I go the OD route). I want to be a large part of my patient's medical care (ie diabetics and glaucoma) and I want them to feel they have my undivided attention during their visit. OK - now I'm rambling.

Please give advice - and don't be too harsh. I know I still have a lot of the "newbe" idealistic thoughts. I truely do have a passion for the field and just want to be the best doctor I can be no matter which path I decide to take. (oh yeah - and it's not an issue of money in the OD vs. MD part - I'll be making a whole lot more than I am now as a tech!!!)

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[KHE]

I have been working as a tech in optometry/opthalmology for about 5 yrs. I love my job and I love EYES! The OD that I currently work for encourgage me to go back to school for optometry (I'm 27 so had never even considered trying to begin college with 2 kids in tow). So I am back in school....

My question/problem...
I love the medical aspects of my job. I love the retina, I love the OCT, I love the cornea, ect. I enjoy refracting and contact lenses but not quite as much as the other.

The doc that I work for has a very good set up. We have no full time MD's in our town/county. He has a very medically oriented practice, is able to bill most any med. insurance he wants (only accepts 1 vision plan - Eyemed) and then 1x a week a MD comes and does sx consults and pre-ops. This works very well and this is the type of practice is what I would like to work in. But ~ how typical is this?

I know alot of people (and insurance companies) don't believe that OD's are as capable of managing disease as MD's. Because I like the medical part of optometry so much, I am questioning whether I should go to medical school. Medical school is not my first choice because I don't want to have a Dr./patient relationship like most of the MD's I have worked with (also can begin practicing much sooner if I go the OD route). I want to be a large part of my patient's medical care (ie diabetics and glaucoma) and I want them to feel they have my undivided attention during their visit. OK - now I'm rambling.

Please give advice - and don't be too harsh. I know I still have a lot of the "newbe" idealistic thoughts. I truely do have a passion for the field and just want to be the best doctor I can be no matter which path I decide to take. (oh yeah - and it's not an issue of money in the OD vs. MD part - I'll be making a whole lot more than I am now as a tech!!!)

If your attraction to the profession is based on disease and disease management, you will be much better off going the medical school route. I have a practice that is about as "medically oriented" as an optometric practice can get and the medical visits account for a relatively small portion of my day. Most patients seek you out for refractive and visual care, not disease management. If that's the area you are big on, you will be more satisfied going to medical school.

 

[docwatson]

If your attraction to the profession is based on disease and disease management, you will be much better off going the medical school route. I have a practice that is about as "medically oriented" as an optometric practice can get and the medical visits account for a relatively small portion of my day. Most patients seek you out for refractive and visual care, not disease management. If that's the area you are big on, you will be more satisfied going to medical school.

I agree.

You might want to do a search on all of KHE's and my past posts (docwatson) to find topics related to the future of the profession. I think few people going into optometry school really, truly understand what they are up against. Of course no one at the school is going to be truthful for two reasons: They work in an insulated environment so they may not even know anything outside of their institution and what is presented in a textbook, and besides, it would not be in their best interests to divulge negative information to discourage you from giving your money to them.

I am not entirely negative on the profession myself. I think I've done very well for myself and I think there is a positive horizon for me until retirement. But, I can't say the same thing for the long term health of the profession. The key here is that you and everyone else who is thinking about optometry school must be fully informed so you can make a wise decision.

Frankly, I didn't know 1/4 of what I know now about what the future holds when I started school in 1995. Sure it was a different time but many of the issues then were no different than they are now.

 

[qwopty99]

just keep in mind, u can't go to medical school "expecting" to become an ophthalmologist. i'd say that's being almost negligent about your future.

it's an extremely competitive match, so unless u finish literally at/near FIRST in your class, u might realistically end up going to medical school, just to end up in family practice.

i know of an OD who went back to medical school and didn't match into ophthalmology.

 

[RegularGuy]

I completely agree with qwopty99's comment.

Many people don't know this, but you don't automatically get to study the specialty you want in med school. For certain fields, you have to apply and get accepted into programs.

I've got 4 good friends who are wrapping up their residency's, fellowships or are current specialists, and when I talk to them about opthalmology, they all tell me the same thing: "Almost everybody wants to be an ophthalmologist because they get great hours and great pay. It's really hard to get into, though, because you have to be the best of the best in your med school."

This comes from a radiologist, heart surgeon, orthopedic surgeon, and pediatric critical care something something. <grin> I've got a 400/390 TS/AA on my OAT and a 3.8+ prerequisite GPA, and I truly believe that I could get into med school if I desired. However, realistically, I doubt I would be able to get the grades needed to get into opthalmology. The competition is just too high.

And remember, going to med school is a much larger time commitment than optometry school. You've got 4 years of painful schooling. Then a residency where you work like crazy. Then fellowships and specializations where you are vastly underpaid. That's 10 years easy. Not a trivial commitment, especially since you're already 27 and have kids.

Of course, you may be much more intelligent and more willing to devote 10+ years of training to your future profession than I am-- But these are some of the reasons (not the major ones, though) why I've chosen to go into optometry.

 

[alleigh79]

Thanks to everyone for your comments!!! I really appreciate it and they have really got me thinking!

 

[Dr Gump]

Thanks to everyone for your comments!!! I really appreciate it and they have really got me thinking!

I actually disagree with the other two mentors on this subject.

If you have an Optometry background with a little Ophthalmology mixed in, you would be an excellent Optometrist. Granted, you would not be guaranteed the pathology management that it seems you appreciate, but you would be assessing eyes and hopefully diagnosing pathologies that others may ignore.

I have a practice that is mainly pathology based and I have my share of refractive patients, but vision is driven by health and if the vision is deficient there is probably a health issue. Kind of like a mystery.....the problem must be discovered. I look at every patient this way. It may seem "paranoid", but it is in the best interest of my patients.

As to the question of the future of Optometry, I believe that it will progress slightly and we will find a common ground with Ophthalmology. I have and it works well. Insurances will continue to be insurances. They will rule the world and every health care professional will feel their power, but that is another story. I would be happy with the current status quo. I am quite happy practicing the way I am.

You have an interest in eye health and that is far ahead of most other individuals. Build on it and it will work well for you. I wish all prospective Optometry students had your background and interests. It would make the profession stronger.

I have a few Optometrist friends that only see "sick" patients. These patients are referred from other Optometrists or are already being managed by them. The niche is out there, but you must be mobile and stubborn enough to find it.

If you do follow through and complete Optometry school, look me up. I'll give you a job looking at lots of pathology.

Good luck.

Dr. Gump

 

[alleigh79]

Wow - thank you Dr. Gump. That was extremely encouraging! Thank you for your insight!

 

[qwopty99]

just to make it clear, Dr Gump is disagreeing (i think) with the two earlier posts in the thread, not my post and RegGuy's post. Ophthamology is an insane match.

regular guy wrote:

>This comes from a radiologist, heart surgeon, orthopedic surgeon, and pediatric critical care something something. <grin> I've got a 400/390 TS/AA on my OAT and a 3.8+ prerequisite GPA, and I truly believe that I could get into med school if I desired.

i basically had the same stats. that gets you into medicine. that would also likely make u an "average" or slightly above-average student in med school. that CERTAINLY does not guarantee u will be the top 1-2% in med school u need to match into ophthalmology, and as well, overcome all the nepotistic/sexist/racist factors that go along with it. and no, i'm not making this up. it's a very small community, they all know each other, which of their_kids are applying and entering "that year", and it's hard to get your foor in the door without connections.

at least that's how it is in ontario, canada.

 

[docwatson]

just to make it clear, Dr Gump is disagreeing (i think) with the two earlier posts in the thread, not my post and RegGuy's post. Ophthamology is an insane match.

regular guy wrote:

>This comes from a radiologist, heart surgeon, orthopedic surgeon, and pediatric critical care something something. <grin> I've got a 400/390 TS/AA on my OAT and a 3.8+ prerequisite GPA, and I truly believe that I could get into med school if I desired.

i basically had the same stats. that gets you into medicine. that would also likely make u an "average" or slightly above-average student in med school. that CERTAINLY does not guarantee u will be the top 1-2% in med school u need to match into ophthalmology, and as well, overcome all the nepotistic/sexist/racist factors that go along with it. and no, i'm not making this up. it's a very small community, they all know each other, which of their_kids are applying and entering "that year", and it's hard to get your foor in the door without connections.

at least that's how it is in ontario, canada.

You know, it was only a suggestion. If the Alleigh wants to go into medicine or optometry, it will be her prerogative. Just giving her some thoughts...

I think you are going overboard with the stats. Where there is a will, there is a way. Certainly being realistic is good, but great desire is a different thing altogether.

Going the "easy" route into optometry is not necessarily the right path (if that's what you are insinuating).

 

[DrWBD]

The comments posted in this thread are pretty insightful and accurate.

My somewhat limited observation is that getting into Ophthalmology, while very difficult, is certainly not as impossible as some people make it out to be. There are a lot of intangibles that determine whether or not you can get into a specialty in medicine. Grades and board scores are a large part, don't get me wrong, but they aren't the only thing. Some Ophtho residencies are more competitive than others (big university hospitals vs smaller community hospital based programs) and less competitive applicants find spots in the less competitive programs. They still graduate as ophthalmologists.

Also, doing a lot of 4th year elective time in a program you want to attend can carry a lot of weight in the application process, especially if you are well-liked by the residents and the attendings there.

I agree, though, that if you decide to go the med school route you should do so with the understanding that there's a chance you might not get the residency you want. If you're cool with that, good luck to you.

P.S. I know two ophthalmologists, one graduated from NYCOM and matched to an ACGME residency. The other went to an offshore school.

 

[qwopty99]

You know, it was only a suggestion. If the Alleigh wants to go into medicine or optometry, it will be her prerogative. Just giving her some thoughts...

I think you are going overboard with the stats. Where there is a will, there is a way. Certainly being realistic is good, but great desire is a different thing altogether.

Going the "easy" route into optometry is not necessarily the right path (if that's what you are insinuating).

i'm not insinuating anything. i'm saying u can't go into medicine expecting to end up in ophthalmology. that's my opinion. is it all about will? hey, i want to be an astronaut, but even with my will, i doubt that'll ever happen. no, it's not alwys true if there's a will, there's a way.

i'll never play basketball better than Michael Jordan. same with becoming a trillionaire.

it may not be as "hard" to match into ophtho as finishing basically ~top5/100 in a medical school class, but if ur a borderline candidate just to get INTO medical school, u had better take a good hard look at things other than ophthalmology. that's a reasonable bottom line.

this has nothing to do with optometry being an easier path. i'm just saying u can't expect to be an ophtho (or a derm, or a radiologist, or whatever) just cause ur in MD school and u "want" to.

 

[docwatson]

this has nothing to do with optometry being an easier path. i'm just saying u can't expect to be an ophtho (or a derm, or a radiologist, or whatever) just cause ur in MD school and u "want" to.

I think you are making some pretty huge assumptions. This person has barely started college. Your advice is like telling someone in grade school that they better be aware of graduate school because it is a killer.

Give her a chance! Let her make the decision! If there is a will, there will be the grades! I suspect she is a pretty smart individual. I hope you don't think otherwise. Do you understand what I'm getting at now?

Hope so.

P.S. I think your post was rather rude. I think that needs to be your next lesson: How to address another colleague in a respectful manner. Call me if you think we need to talk about it further (860) 872-3348.

 

[qwopty99]

i think the point of my posts is this:

the OP in his first post, was essentially asking the merits of OD vs OMD. he reports liking the disease aspect of eye care (hence lead towards OMD), but wasn't sure about the time commitment.

what i'm saying is that there is more to the equation of becoming an OMD, than simply whether u are willing to commit the time.

i agree with the above post, that it IS premature to tell suggest to someone they avoid medicine because of how hard it is to get into ophthalmology - but keep in mind - that is his STATED_GOAL. it is therefore appropriate to mention what we think he is getting himself into, since he came here seeking ADVICE.

as for being rude, u provided a blanket statement (a will, a way), which sounds nice as a line of uber-encouragement, but sorry, it is my opinion that that is all it is good for. in many circumstances, that line is simply not true. a "C" student probably will never become an MD, no matter how bad they want it. that's the reality.

it is my opinion that as hard as it is, for an undergrad to get INTO medical school, it's even MORE hard for an MD student to match into ophthalmology.

anyways, we're just blabbing, so everything is cool. and hey, we're online - gloves are usually off aren't they? (i mean, i can't type with gloves on...)

 

[docwatson]

i think the point of my posts is this:

the OP in his first post, was essentially asking the merits of OD vs OMD. he reports liking the disease aspect of eye care (hence lead towards OMD), but wasn't sure about the time commitment.

what i'm saying is that there is more to the equation of becoming an OMD, than simply whether u are willing to commit the time.

i agree with the above post, that it IS premature to tell suggest to someone they avoid medicine because of how hard it is to get into ophthalmology - but keep in mind - that is his STATED_GOAL. it is therefore appropriate to mention what we think he is getting himself into, since he came here seeking ADVICE.

as for being rude, u provided a blanket statement (a will, a way), which sounds nice as a line of uber-encouragement, but sorry, it is my opinion that that is all it is good for. in many circumstances, that line is simply not true.

it is my opinion that as hard as it is, for an undergrad to get INTO medical school, it's even MORE hard for an MD student to match into ophthalmology.

anyways, we're just blabbing, so everything is cool. and hey, we're online - gloves are usually off aren't they? (i mean, i can't type with gloves on...)

Well, you know, it seems pretty clear you aren't into details because the "he" you refer to is a "she". Also, KHE never said anything about ophthalmology. Only said "medicine" which could mean just 4 years of medical school, and I also meant this as well. I know KHE and he's not stupid. 4 years of medical school vs. 4 years of optometry school. Problem? I think not.

When someone thinks you are being a smart___ it's rude and I think you know what that means. Think about what you said. " i'll never play basketball better than Michael Jordan. same with becoming a trillionaire." Who said anything of the kind or even implied that someone be Albert Einstein??? That's what it means to be a smart___.

There was no blanket statement and you know it. "Where there is a will there is a way" is all about being someone who knows what they want out of life. There is nothing wrong with saying this. Ask anyone if you don't understand what I'm getting at. That line is very much so true. America was built by people who had a dream. Apparently you never had one or you wouldn't say this. Yeah, I know, you are a Canadian. Medical school is not that tough. Please...

Sorry this has to be posted publicly because I feel like you did your deed publicly. Yeah, we can call this even but understand that I did not say anything that deserved the B.S. you threw my way... Yes, I am offended.

Anyway... I left my phone number and you are welcome to call me and talk about it. If not, this is my final statement on this. No need to bore everyone about this nonsensical to and fro...

 

[qwopty99]

i think u over reacted. if u look, i stuck to arguments and stating my clearly defined opinions. why take everything personal?

will/way. that's something u tell an elementary school kid. not something u tell an adult who is considering a career change. they have some real hard decisions to make.

if it's so easy, why isn't everyone an ophthalmologist? heck i'd LOVE to be an ophthalmologist rather than OD, but realistically, i just don't have the talent. no. i don't think i can finish top 10/100 in an MD school class. people who i know who are better/smarter than me, didn't achieve it themselves, so i think its realistic that i wouldn't have either. i work with an ophthalmologist now. his talent/ability blows mine out of the water. that's fine with me.

and i don't know ANY licensed MD who's only schooling was four years of MD school. (and I didn't even bring up that point, the OP did, "also can begin practicing much sooner if I go the OD route")

btw

P.S. I think your post was rather rude. I think that needs to be your next lesson: How to address another colleague in a respectful manner.

if i'm rude, then ur paternalistic. and that's rude too.

 

[qwopty99]

anyhoos, what it comes down to, is we have different ways of giving advice.

a pre-med will comes to each of us, asking about med school.

it seems u'd say,
"you can do it, just work hard!"

i'd say,
"u gotta know, that getting into med school is pretty tough."

i don't present everything as cholocate and roses. that's how i do things.

 

[alleigh79]

Wow ~ you guys had fun today! I think I have pretty much decided to go the OD route. Then I am guarenteed the eyeballs. If it is not satisfying enough - I'll attempt med school after. I definately know I want the eyes. Sorry you two had to argue over it....... (just for the record the less sarcastic posts are the most impressive)

 

[IndianaOD]

I don't understand the rumor that Ophthalmology is impossible to get into. You see it mentioned all the time that there is a 90% match for applicants. I've worked with 3 OD/MDs. They all said it wasn't that difficult to get into Ophtho.

There are a lot of ODs who spend 80% + of their time with pathology. In most states you can manage absolutely everything short of cutting into the eye. You would just have to shoot for a referral center.

Technology is moving to less and less invasiveness. Wet ARMD can be handled very well with an OCT and injections. LASIK/LASEK is almost entirely done by the computer and laser now.

Truthfully if you want the best career with similar schooling go into dentistry!

 

[qwopty99]

if u ask a pre-med how hard it is to get into med school, they'll say it's impossible.

u ask that same student, after they got into med school, how hard it is to get into med school, they'll say it isn't bad at all.

same with optometry.

same with ophthalmology.

u can't ask people in a program how hard it is to get in, u have to look ask the people who DIDN'T get in.

 

[docwatson]

if u ask a pre-med how hard it is to get into med school, they'll say it's impossible.

u ask that same student, after they got into med school, how hard it is to get into med school, they'll say it isn't bad at all.

same with optometry.

same with ophthalmology.

u can't ask people in a program how hard it is to get in, u have to look ask the people who DIDN'T get in.

To me, it wasn't hard at all to get into optometry school. I had the same opinion before and after school.

In regards to asking people who didn't get in: Sorry, but your logic is lacking. I'm going to have to ask Mr. Spock to visit your house because he needs to have a talk with you. How can you ask people who didn't get in? THEY DIDN'T GET IN. That means it was infinitely difficult for them. Well yeah, T H E Y D I D N ' T G E T I N .

This is really an odd conversation. On the one hand several people have chimed in and said it's not impossible to become an OMD, whereas you seem to think that almost no one can, well, except for you because you apparently feel that you would have done it because of your superior intellect--I mean grades.

Why don't we ask the 30,000 current OMDs about the status of their profession? Doesn't seem to be shrinking so apparently there are people who are becoming OMDs as we speak.

It's not IMPOSSIBLE to become an OMD. Don't make it out to be like that. Didn't say it was easy either. But... Where there is a will there is a way...

Why am I talking about this again???

 

[sniklegem]

Why am I talking about this again???

Because you like to hear yourself talk.

Seriously, the OP made her decision. Discussion over. We rehash all of these arguments on a weekly basis. Give me something better to read during my VERY limited time away from schoolwork. Please. (PS- and hooray for a Saturday off from studying!)

 

[qwopty99]

To me, it wasn't hard at all to get into optometry school. I had the same opinion before and after school.

not everyone is like u. go visit the pre-opt forums. not all pre-opts are so confident about their admission, like u were. perhaps u can look at this thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=455094

In regards to asking people who didn't get in: Sorry, but your logic is lacking. I'm going to have to ask Mr. Spock to visit your house because he needs to have a talk with you. How can you ask people who didn't get in? THEY DIDN'T GET IN. That means it was infinitely difficult for them. Well yeah, T H E Y D I D N ' T G E T I N .

uhh... yeah. u just made my point for me.

This is really an odd conversation. On the one hand several people have chimed in and said it's not impossible to become an OMD, whereas you seem to think that almost no one can, well, except for you because you apparently feel that you would have done it because of your superior intellect--I mean grades.

wow. this is a really good one. where did u learn to read? how on earth did u get through optometry school? POST 16:

if it's so easy, why isn't everyone an ophthalmologist? heck i'd LOVE to be an ophthalmologist rather than OD, but realistically, i just don't have the talent. no. i don't think i can finish top 10/100 in an MD school class. people who i know who are better/smarter than me, didn't achieve it themselves, so i think its realistic that i wouldn't have either. i work with an ophthalmologist now. his talent/ability blows mine out of the water. that's fine with me.

it's always fun to chat with arrogant people online. i should show u "respect"? for what? u certainly haven't earned it here.

 

[qwopty99]

I've got 4 good friends who are wrapping up their residency's, fellowships or are current specialists, and when I talk to them about opthalmology, they all tell me the same thing: "Almost everybody wants to be an ophthalmologist because they get great hours and great pay. It's really hard to get into, though, because you have to be the best of the best in your med school."

This comes from a radiologist, heart surgeon, orthopedic surgeon, and pediatric critical care something something.

i work with a corneal specialist. he tells me the same thing.

but i guess docwat thinks he knows more about ophthalmology admissions than do MDs who actually went through the process...

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Here are the usmle step 1 scores of residencies which provides an approximate estimate of how hard it is to get into ophthalmology. As you can see, it's on the more difficult side, but certainly not impossible. I'd estimate students in the top third of their class could get into a program if they don't care where.

 

[qwopty99]

is there an "average" USMLE score, and what is it?

what is the approximate standard deviation of USMLE scores?

also - i recall u are an ophth. is this true?

the ophth i know had a 4.0 gpa in med school.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

is there an "average" USMLE score, and what is it?

what is the approximate standard deviation of USMLE scores?

also - i recall u are an ophth. is this true?

the ophth i know had a 4.0 gpa in med school.

The average is published as 218 and standard deviation 23. I am a medical student.

 

[qwopty99]

u describe the top third of a class "could" get into ophth if they wanted to, but can u profile the typical successful applicant? e.g. their class rank out of, let's say, 100 people.

it was mentioned above that 30 000 ophths exist in the US. how many positions a year does that work out to roughly?

 

[RegularGuy]

Hi Pinkertickle,

Thanks for the interesting chart.

I did a bit of googling, and found a percentile breakdown for certain scores. It looks like a person who scores a 230 is in the 70th percentile. Seeing that almost all med school students are highly intelligent and capable individuals, scoring in the 70th percentile is impressive, to me. (http://www.medfriends.org/step1_estimator/USMLE Step 1 Score Percentile Conversion.htm)

I found this quote: "Only for the most highly competitive specialties - plastic surgery, dermatology, radiation oncology and orthopaedic surgery - are success rates below 80 percent." (http://www.medfriends.org/match_statistics/2005 Match Outcomes.pdf)

Then I found this: "Most Competitive Specialties - These are the absolute most competitive specialties and generally have many more US medical school graduate applicants than residency spots. In recent years these specialties generally have required 240+ Step 1 scores, at least 4 Honors or Outstandings (depending on your school's grading system) grades during the clerkship years and AOA status for entry (successful match).
Dermatology Orthopedic Surgery Plastic Surgery
Urology Radiation Oncology ENT
Neurosurgery" (Note, Opthamology is not listed) (http://www.medfriends.org/specialty_info.htm)

Finally, I found this: "Competitive Specialties - These specialties, while certainly competitive, are not as competitive as the ones mentioned above. These specialties generally have about an equal number of residency spots as US medical school graduate applicants. In recent years these specialties have generally required 220+ Step 1 scores and at least 2 Honors or Outstandings (depending on your school's grading system) grades during the clerkship years for entry (successful match). AOA status is not absolutely required, but it will get you interviews at some of the better residency programs.
Anesthesiology Forensic Pathology General Surgery
Ophthalmology Emergency Medicine Radiology (Diagnostic)"
(http://www.medfriends.org/specialty_info.htm)

So, it seems that becoming an ophthalmologist is quite possible for many people. Conversely, many people do not have the ability to become ophthalmologists because it is a highly selective and competitive field.

I hope all this information will help alleigh79 to make the right decision for her.

 

[docwatson]

Just tried to be the voice of reason here but as I've always said, you can't reason with an unreasonable person.

I'm certain that others reading this thread will get the idea that ophthalmology is an alternative to optometry for those who want to put forth the effort since the overwhelming majority who have spoken thinks it is possible. The supply of OMDs has to be replenished since doctors do retire so it is clear that getting into the OMD program is attainable.

You really do not have to be as talented in basketball as Michael Jordan or qualify for the US Astronaut program to become an OMD. That is just hearsay from one person.

Even becoming a family doctor is an alternative. ODs are primary eye care doctors and family docs are primary care physicians.

Email me directly if you want to explore this further: [email protected].

 

[qwopty99]

it must be the case there are more residency positions for ophth in the US than in Canada

in Canada, it's 16 positions a year.

there are 17 medical schools in Canada.

that works out to less than one person per medical school graduating class, per year, that gets into ophth. i think that's pretty hard.

so maybe we're just arguing different things.

 

[qwopty99]

Just tried to be the voice of reason here but as I've always said, you can't reason with an unreasonable person.

u are also the voice of baseless allegation. speaking of unreasonable, the least reasonable statement on this thread is found here:

This is really an odd conversation. On the one hand several people have chimed in and said it's not impossible to become an OMD, whereas you seem to think that almost no one can, well, except for you because you apparently feel that you would have done it because of your superior intellect--I mean grades.

how do u know what i think? do u also claim expertise in psychiatry?

 

[docwatson]

I apologize profusely to anyone reading this and to qwopty99. I did not intend to get into an argument and I'm not sure how it degenerated into this, and for that I apologize.

I think forums like this need to have more decorum since there are professionals and soon-to-become professionals here. There needs to be a higher level of respect for all differing opinions.

I would hope that the moderator knows this and is aware of this conversation.

 

[qwopty99]

i thank drwatson for his "apology" above, and gratefully acknowledge that he takes credit for defusing the "bitterness" in this thread.

i would just like to mention, it must be the case we simply are not arguing the same thing.

in canada, and these numbers aren't "verified" for current entering classes, but a few years ago (say 3), i saw the number of oph residency positions in canada on a list (it was a list of ALL residency positions in canada - can't seem to find it now). there was 16 positions (up from 12 just a few years earlier). if the number really is 16, then it literally is about 1/100 medical students in canada, who go onto an ophthalmology residency in canada.

for someone who isn't even in med school (and getting in is no piece of cake either), i think it's fair to bring up the reality of the application process. i couldn't, with good conscience, "advise" a pre-med about gunning for ophthalmology, without telling them the odds they have to beat. in canada, these odds are real.

we have ~3000 ODs in canada. i've always thought there were ~300 ophths in canada. so it just seems that there are more eye care professionals per capita, in the US, than here, by a significant margin. i guess that's part of the reason why ODs in canada don't seem to complain about over-saturation as much as ODs do in the US.

we might be able to conclude that its harder to get an ophthalmology match in canada, than in the US, though having numbers would certainly strengthen this argument.

 

[qwopty99]

OK. i seem to have found some stats:

http://www.carms.ca/eng/operations_R1reports_06_e.shtml

what i gather from the page, there were 1961 total med school graduates. it seems there were 32 positions for ophthalmology.

32/1961 = 1.63%

so that's what we're looking at, in canada.

so not quite 1%. in canada in 2006, 1.63% of med school grads do ophthalmology.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Why are we focused on Canada again? The OP didn't state he wanted to go to Canada.

 

[qwopty99]

just explaining the basis behind the misunderstanding.

 

[IndianaOD]

I know that at least one of the Canadian Optometry schools has a very impressive undergrad GPA average. Just shows supply and demand.

In daily practice I doubt you need to be smarter than a Psychiatrist to practice Dermatology. Its just that more MDs want to be Derms so its much harder. If they double the Derm spots the averages would go down.

Just like the Canadian Opto school's high entering GPAs. If I remember correctly its quite a bit higher that most of the Med school averages.

Its supply and demand that dictate the competitiveness, not how smart you have to be to actually perform that specialty.

I personally would rather have a higher scoring general surgeon that a derm, but that's not the way it works.

 

[premed85]

I completely agree with qwopty99's comment.

Many people don't know this, but you don't automatically get to study the specialty you want in med school. For certain fields, you have to apply and get accepted into programs.

I've got 4 good friends who are wrapping up their residency's, fellowships or are current specialists, and when I talk to them about opthalmology, they all tell me the same thing: "Almost everybody wants to be an ophthalmologist because they get great hours and great pay. It's really hard to get into, though, because you have to be the best of the best in your med school."

This comes from a radiologist, heart surgeon, orthopedic surgeon, and pediatric critical care something something. <grin> I've got a 400/390 TS/AA on my OAT and a 3.8+ prerequisite GPA, and I truly believe that I could get into med school if I desired. However, realistically, I doubt I would be able to get the grades needed to get into opthalmology. The competition is just too high.

And remember, going to med school is a much larger time commitment than optometry school. You've got 4 years of painful schooling. Then a residency where you work like crazy. Then fellowships and specializations where you are vastly underpaid. That's 10 years easy. Not a trivial commitment, especially since you're already 27 and have kids.

Of course, you may be much more intelligent and more willing to devote 10+ years of training to your future profession than I am-- But these are some of the reasons (not the major ones, though) why I've chosen to go into optometry.

i dont know why alot of people keep thinking that you have to specialize after your residency....you specialize when you are in residency...or atleast that is what i have read as far as i have researched...and fellowships are for subspecialization...so not counting undergrad, med school plus residency is 7 yrs minimum and 10 - 13 yrs maximum including fellowships if you wish to do that

 

[RegularGuy]

I agree, it is not required to undergo fellowships to become an ophthalmologist. (I am by no means an authority, however-- It would be nice if an ophthalmologist could chime in now!)

For opthalmology, http://www.healthcare-trainingcenter.com/programs-opthamologist.asp states that 4 years of residency are required. So that's a minimum of 8 years after college.

Consequently, my first post should be changed to:

"And remember, going to med school is a much larger time commitment than optometry school. You've got 4 years of painful schooling. Then a 4 year residency where you work like crazy. (At this point, you may choose to enter fellowships for further specialization where you are vastly underpaid.)

In your case, because you're still completing your required undergraduate work (assuming 2 years, although a college degree typically takes 4 years), that's a minimum of 10 years. Not a trivial commitment, especially since you're already 27 and have kids."

Thanks for the clarification, premed85!

 

[IndianaOD]

I agree, it is not required to undergo fellowships to become an ophthalmologist. (I am by no means an authority, however-- It would be nice if an ophthalmologist could chime in now!)

For opthalmology, http://www.healthcare-trainingcenter.com/programs-opthamologist.asp states that 4 years of residency are required. So that's a minimum of 8 years after college.

Consequently, my first post should be changed to:

"And remember, going to med school is a much larger time commitment than optometry school. You've got 4 years of painful schooling. Then a 4 year residency where you work like crazy. (At this point, you may choose to enter fellowships for further specialization where you are vastly underpaid.)

In your case, because you're still completing your required undergraduate work (assuming 2 years, although a college degree typically takes 4 years), that's a minimum of 10 years. Not a trivial commitment, especially since you're already 27 and have kids."

Thanks for the clarification, premed85!

General OMD is 3 year residency. The residents I worked with during my training didn't have it "crazy"

I think the right answer is med school with internship (so call transitional year) plus 3 years of residency. Ped OMDs add 1 extra year, retina 2-3 more. Most of your cataract cowboys/lasik are the general type.

I kind of think of it as 3 years of eye training minimum.

 

[Olddog1]

General OMD is 3 year residency. The residents I worked with during my training didn't have it "crazy"

I think the right answer is med school with internship (so call transitional year) plus 3 years of residency. Ped OMDs add 1 extra year, retina 2-3 more. Most of your cataract cowboys/lasik are the general type.

I kind of think of it as 3 years of eye training minimum.

Once again IndianaOD talking without the facts. I know, I can hear everybody gasp from here.
First: No, most ophthalmology residents don't work like "crazy", but they do work harder than the optometry residents we trained because they took overnight call. Don't even bother saying how tough you had it. Yes, I know during the day (with the exception of surgery) the optometry residents did the same thing the ophthalmology residents did, but by and large the training OMDs came earlier and stayed later, and by consequence saw more patients.
Second: A transitional year occurs the first year after medical school and includes peds, surgery and medicine. The first year after graduation is your intern year, aka PGY 1 year. Your PGY1 year can be a transtional year, but can be either transitional, pediatrics, surgery or medicine.
Third: Retina fellowships are one or two years. For medical retina it is one year, for surgical retina it is two.
Fourth: Most of the older "cataract cowboys" are general ophthalmologist, however, with the increased subspecialization seen in many locations the referral Lasik docs typically are cornea trained. This requires an extra year after the one year internship and 3 years of ophthalmology residency. Typically you will find most ODs want the highest level of care (or perceived highest level of care by the patients) for their referrals, and the highest probability of their return, which usually comes from a subspecialist.

To the original poster, do your research with both the ODs and OMDs. While 8+ years is a long time to become an OMD, 4 years is a long time to become an OD, esp if you find it is not what you want. The biggest thing you need to think about is your age. While 27 is not long in the tooth, if you still need to finish undergrad now you have many years to go to be an MD (likely 6+ before residency, and that is if you get accepted on the first try). That being said I graduated medical school with a single mother in her thirties and another women who was 40+. ie, nothing is impossible if you really know what you want. Good luck.

 

[RegularGuy]

I hope I didn't offend anybody with the use of the word "crazy". I'd rather not argue about the amount of work that qualifies as crazy, since it's rather subjective.

I just meant that it's hard work. That's all.

 

[IndianaOD]

Once again IndianaOD talking without the facts. I know, I can hear everybody gasp from here.
First: No, most ophthalmology residents don't work like "crazy", but they do work harder than the optometry residents we trained because they took overnight call. Don't even bother saying how tough you had it. Yes, I know during the day (with the exception of surgery) the optometry residents did the same thing the ophthalmology residents did, but by and large the training OMDs came earlier and stayed later, and by consequence saw more patients.
Second: A transitional year occurs the first year after medical school and includes peds, surgery and medicine. The first year after graduation is your intern year, aka PGY 1 year. Your PGY1 year can be a transtional year, but can be either transitional, pediatrics, surgery or medicine.
Third: Retina fellowships are one or two years. For medical retina it is one year, for surgical retina it is two.
Fourth: Most of the older "cataract cowboys" are general ophthalmologist, however, with the increased subspecialization seen in many locations the referral Lasik docs typically are cornea trained. This requires an extra year after the one year internship and 3 years of ophthalmology residency. Typically you will find most ODs want the highest level of care (or perceived highest level of care by the patients) for their referrals, and the highest probability of their return, which usually comes from a subspecialist.

To the original poster, do your research with both the ODs and OMDs. While 8+ years is a long time to become an OMD, 4 years is a long time to become an OD, esp if you find it is not what you want. The biggest thing you need to think about is your age. While 27 is not long in the tooth, if you still need to finish undergrad now you have many years to go to be an MD (likely 6+ before residency, and that is if you get accepted on the first try). That being said I graduated medical school with a single mother in her thirties and another women who was 40+. ie, nothing is impossible if you really know what you want. Good luck.

Okay, and you just basically said exactly what I did. The facts were correct.
Med school, transitional, 3 residency