Official 2015-2016 Pulm/CCM Fellowship Application Cycle

[gutonc]

Here it is. Good Luck.

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[jdh71]

Good lord where are all this year's poor suckers???

 

[gutonc]

Don't encourage them man.

 

[Hernandez]

I've always said I've never met a sane pulmonologist....perhaps people are realizing I'm correct.

 

[umean2tellme]

OMG Why haven't I gotten any interviews yet??!

 

[deleted547339]

What kind of research productivity is expected for applicants at the top academic programs?

 

[jdh71]

What kind of research productivity is expected for applicants at the top academic programs?

In pulmonary and critical care? Because I know you're just applying to critical care.

But for P/CC 18 months of research is standard at the tops spots and you generally won't be given serious consideration unless you want to do a 4th year going and the expectation that you will be able to publish something to show for it (and I don't mean standing beside a poster about a weird case - grown up stuff). There is a lot of pressure right now in spots with T32s to actually produce physician scientists. And since fellow salaries are not funded by Medicare and must come from somewhere - everything being even - top shops will continue to flog the T32 as they don't have the money to provide for fellows elsewhere. At least not easy in a way anyone in the school of medicine will be happy about. Therefore: research. Lots of it.

 

[deleted547339]

In pulmonary and critical care? Because I know you're just applying to critical care.

But for P/CC 18 months of research is standard at the tops spots and you generally won't be given serious consideration unless you want to do a 4th year going and the expectation that you will be able to publish something to show for it (and I don't mean standing beside a poster about a weird case - grown up stuff). There is a lot of pressure right now in spots with T32s to actually produce physician scientists. And since fellow salaries are not funded by Medicare and must come from somewhere - everything being even - top shops will continue to flog the T32 as they don't have the money to provide for fellows elsewhere. At least not easy in a way anyone in the school of medicine will be happy about. Therefore: research. Lots of it.

Yea, I'm EM so I'm only doing CCM, but I figure P/CCM is the best gauge.

What I meant to ask is what sort of research productivity is expected in prospective applicants to get a position.

 

[jdh71]

Yea, I'm EM so I'm only doing CCM, but I figure P/CCM is the best gauge.

What I meant to ask is what sort of research productivity is expected in prospective applicants to get a position.

A lot is expected in top fellowships. But it *quickly* goes down from there.

Straight critical care *can* be research heavy, if you want it to be, but most places even the tip top CCM spots see it as a clinical track fellowship.

 

[Coffee MD]

If someone is interested in an academic career and he/she has few publications (case reports, review articles but no solid research), do you think he/she should apply to above average places (not the top 10)?
In different words, do places where you do 18 months of research expect you to know your stuff, or you just need to know the basics and they will guide you and teach you how to conduct a real research and publish it?
Again I am not talking about the top 10 programs, but the ones right next to those.

 

[PinkLithe]

Case reports and systematic reviews aren't seen as solid research? Yeah they're not RCTs or large prospective trials or anything, but realistically, how many applicants can be first authoring that stuff? Top 10 academic heavy programs can't all be accepting only big shot researchers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is you need to demonstrate a serious commitment to research and demonstrate the necessary aptitude.

 

[Coffee MD]

Case reports and systematic reviews aren't seen as solid research? Yeah they're not RCTs or large prospective trials or anything, but realistically, how many applicants can be first authoring that stuff? Top 10 academic heavy programs can't all be accepting only big shot researchers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is you need to demonstrate a serious commitment to research and demonstrate the necessary aptitude.

I agree with what you say but I noticed from reviewing the fellows profile in top places that most of them either come from big shots universities or have a good background in basic research (or have PHD). So, I don't know if those top 10 or second top 10 will accept people like me who comes from average university and have only publications like case reports and review articles.

That's why I am asking, I don't want to waste my time, money, and theirs as well.

 

[jdh71]

If someone is interested in an academic career and he/she has few publications (case reports, review articles but no solid research), do you think he/she should apply to above average places (not the top 10)?
In different words, do places where you do 18 months of research expect you to know your stuff, or you just need to know the basics and they will guide you and teach you how to conduct a real research and publish it?
Again I am not talking about the top 10 programs, but the ones right next to those.

Definitely apply to those places. Let them know you are interested. Talk to the fellows when you interview and see if they get that kind of training. Where I trained they were good about this kind of stuff.

 

[jdh71]

Case reports and systematic reviews aren't seen as solid research? Yeah they're not RCTs or large prospective trials or anything, but realistically, how many applicants can be first authoring that stuff? Top 10 academic heavy programs can't all be accepting only big shot researchers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is you need to demonstrate a serious commitment to research and demonstrate the necessary aptitude.

Hard to demonstrate that if all you have are case reports. You can't get a grant to fill out case reports for research. You'll need something more. And those top ten places are only taking 40 to 50 candidates. So yeah. They get to cherry pick out of those top candidates and do.

 

[Coffee MD]

I have two questions:

I know this might sound redundant; but we don't need the california letter to apply for CA programs right? I heard that you can get it after you match there, right?

How good are the programs in Washington DC (Georgetown, Washington Hospital Center, and George Washington)? I thought that thy are good but their hospitals ranking is really not impressive at all

 

[jdh71]

I have two questions:

I know this might sound redundant; but we don't need the california letter to apply for CA programs right? I heard that you can get it after you match there, right?

How good are the programs in Washington DC (Georgetown, Washington Hospital Center, and George Washington)? I thought that thy are good but their hospitals ranking is really not impressive at all

I don't know about Cali

GT is the better program in DC. But none of them are amazing. Adequate. Not bad either. If you want to be close to DC, I might suggest Maryland.

 

[gutonc]

I know this might sound redundant; but we don't need the california letter to apply for CA programs right? I heard that you can get it after you match there, right?

While I think that this may be "technically" true, it's unlikely a program will interview you without it. Just like residencies often won't interview IMGs without 2CK and CS in the bag.

 

[thehundredthone]

There're also some old opinions on that here.

 

[chessknt]

While I think that this may be "technically" true, it's unlikely a program will interview you without it. Just like residencies often won't interview IMGs without 2CK and CS in the bag.

Is this true for all applicants or only applicants who went to medical school outside of Cali? How do they even know if you have this--is there a spot on ERAS? Do they manually search every applicant on the Cali medical board?

 

[CritiPulm]

Oh Boy ! First post in this forum! Call me crazy but followed every single post last year to get an idea of how things turn out. Let the application season jitters begin!

Hello everybody!

 

[Raryn]

Is this true for all applicants or only applicants who went to medical school outside of Cali? How do they even know if you have this--is there a spot on ERAS? Do they manually search every applicant on the Cali medical board?

For all applicants who went to medical school outside of the United States. There's a spot on ERAS to put it if I remember right (i.e. I think I've skipped past that spot before. I wouldn't know, I went to med school in the US.)

 

[CritiPulm]

Whats a safe number of programs to apply for an IMG at a community program?

 

[gutonc]

Is this true for all applicants or only applicants who went to medical school outside of Cali? How do they even know if you have this--is there a spot on ERAS? Do they manually search every applicant on the Cali medical board?

PTAL is only needed for foreign grads. If you went to school in the US or Canadia-ville you can forget this even exists.

 

[CritiPulm]

I also wanted to ask people about the letter's of recommendations. With most programs asking for 3-4 letters, what would be an ideal combination?

1 from program director, 1 from chairman and 2 from pulmonary critical care faculty (include ICU director)

or

1 from program director/chairman and 3 from pulmonary critical care faculty (include ICU director)

Just wanted to get other people's opinion.

 

[gutonc]

You don't "need" need a PD letter. But you need a PD letter. Pick the other 3 as you see fit.

FWIW, my LORs (for a different subspecialty) came from my PD, my research mentor (I have a PhD and was applying for a research fellowship), an Onc attending (who happened to be a PD) and an ICU attending who probably wrote me the best of all 4 of those letters. Don't get too hung up on this.

 

[jdh71]

Whats a safe number of programs to apply for an IMG at a community program?

"Safe" right now would be all that you think you can afford. I would skip sending an application to top programs for the most part. Pick three reaches or so and then keep it reasonable.

 

[jdh71]

I also wanted to ask people about the letter's of recommendations. With most programs asking for 3-4 letters, what would be an ideal combination?

1 from program director, 1 from chairman and 2 from pulmonary critical care faculty (include ICU director)

or

1 from program director/chairman and 3 from pulmonary critical care faculty (include ICU director)

Just wanted to get other people's opinion.

You need the good word from your PD. The rest need to come from pulmonary faculty, division director is always helpful (because a lot of these guys know each other), and then two more from attendings who were in the trenches with you.

 

[mochief2000]

I think PD is required if I remember from my not so distant application. Pulm or Crit care attending (at least one) also required since applying for field, but rest (last 1 or 2) I would choose pulm if possble but most importantly someone who knows me enough to write me a letter that counts, even if not pulm/crit.

I would do the 1/3rd rule. 1/3rd top, 1/3 middle, 1/3 I should get surely get a interview at this shi** place. I say this to all the IMG's (j1,H1 or green card). the experience is random, some of my friends overestimated themselves and didn't get much return despite a better resume. Then found themselve bitting their tongue wishing they applied for that university of shi** program. It is written, it is better to reject an interview than not get one.

I still believe its a buyers market for US grads if you have no red flags.

 

[Leo Spaceman v2]

In answer to some of the questions above

1. You do NOT need a PTAL to apply to Cali programs. You would need it if you matched to one.

2. PD letters were required for all but one program I applied to. Don't need a chair's letter unless specifically asked for. My advice as to the best combo - PD letter + 1 letter that attests to your awesomeness as an IM guy/gal + 2 strong PCCM letters. I applied with 2 IM and 1 PCCM letters; no one batted an eyelid or said anything. Make sure you get your letters from people who really KNOW you an can talk about you.

 

[DocKSV]

There doesn't seem to be a lot of subjective information out there on programs outside of the top tier ones.

Anyone know much about MUSC, Wake Forest, Duke, Temple, Jeff, Baylor or the Univ of Texas programs? I'm looking at mostly warmer climates if you can't tell haha.

I've heard through the grapevine that UVA still uses CVPs as a marker in resuscitation *gasp*. Not sure if its true, but i'd ideally steer clear from an institution that adapts so slowly. I get the feeling that interview days tend to only show a tip of the iceberg and I wouldn't get the real "low down" on programs in those few hours.

 

[PinkLithe]

Two questions:
1) What are people's opinions on getting a reference letter from either: 1) ICU program director, or 2) ICU staff who is very well known in the research community (ie: NEJM pubs, large trials, previous editor of JAMA etc)?
2) Some programs that I'm assuming are mid/high tier, ie: Cornell, Dartmouth, Mayo clinic, Cleveland clinic seem to be fairly friendly to IMGs, based off the percentages of current trainees on FREIDA. Would it be safe to say that based off these numbers, these schools wouldn't be considered "reach" programs?

 

[jdh71]

There doesn't seem to be a lot of subjective information out there on programs outside of the top tier ones.

Anyone know much about MUSC, Wake Forest, Duke, Temple, Jeff, Baylor or the Univ of Texas programs? I'm looking at mostly warmer climates if you can't tell haha.

I've heard through the grapevine that UVA still uses CVPs as a marker in resuscitation *gasp*. Not sure if its true, but i'd ideally steer clear from an institution that adapts so slowly. I get the feeling that interview days tend to only show a tip of the iceberg and I wouldn't get the real "low down" on programs in those few hours.

Duke is top tier

 

[Leo Spaceman v2]

There doesn't seem to be a lot of subjective information out there on programs outside of the top tier ones.

Anyone know much about MUSC, Wake Forest, Duke, Temple, Jeff, Baylor or the Univ of Texas programs? I'm looking at mostly warmer climates if you can't tell haha.

I've heard through the grapevine that UVA still uses CVPs as a marker in resuscitation *gasp*. Not sure if its true, but i'd ideally steer clear from an institution that adapts so slowly. I get the feeling that interview days tend to only show a tip of the iceberg and I wouldn't get the real "low down" on programs in those few hours.

Duke is Duke; didn't get invited, but from what I know a lot of their superstars have left for other places. Paul Noble, and their PH guy.
MUSC>>>Temple>>>>>>> T Jefferson. Didn't apply to TX programs.

MUSC and Temple both have 1-2 big wigs in the program, and the kind of big wigs that want to teach/train.

The program faculty at MUSC is awesome, seemed like the kind of people who would help you achieve whatever goals you had for your 3 years. MUSC's new chief was brought in to revv up their research. All kinds of clinical and research opportunities. When I interviewed, was told Dr Silvestri takes 1-2 under his wing to train onc/bronch gurus. PD is awwwwsome. If you like hot&sticky Charleston, and are a meat-lover, MUSC is IT! (It's like no restaurant in Charleston every heard of anyone who didn't eat meat!)

Temple's strength is clinical. You will get SOLID clinical experience at Temple. I liked the faculty. Good vibes from the fellows. The hospital is really nice inside if ambience matters. If North Philly doesn't spook you and you're looking for solid clinical skills, Temple is good. + transplant.

Did not like the TJefferson program one bit. Nothing to commend it over any other program. Location-wise overshadowed by Penn. Drexel's there too. No Transplant. Faculty - meh! Research - meh! Curriculum - meh! Totally clinical; you can get with some people who do systematic reviews and stuff and put out a few articles. Their ICU made me extremely claustrophobic.

 

[mochief2000]

There doesn't seem to be a lot of subjective information out there on programs outside of the top tier ones.

Anyone know much about MUSC, Wake Forest, Duke, Temple, Jeff, Baylor or the Univ of Texas programs? I'm looking at mostly warmer climates if you can't tell haha.

I've heard through the grapevine that UVA still uses CVPs as a marker in resuscitation *gasp*. Not sure if its true, but i'd ideally steer clear from an institution that adapts so slowly. I get the feeling that interview days tend to only show a tip of the iceberg and I wouldn't get the real "low down" on programs in those few hours.

Are you looking more clinical or research? career goals? Leo spaceman list is head on if looking for more research-oriented program. i would put UVA(not sure about the CVP will ask)>Temple>MUSC>baylor>UT houston(maybe to clinical)>TJ (clinical, but not impressed).Dont know duke or wake. With the exception of UVA , MUSC and baylor, usually the more clinical, the less meaningful research(aka posters and case reports).

 

[DocKSV]

Are you looking more clinical or research? career goals? Leo spaceman list is head on if looking for more research-oriented program. i would put UVA(not sure about the CVP will ask)>Temple>MUSC>baylor>UT houston(maybe to clinical)>TJ (clinical, but impressed).Dont know duke or wake. With the exception of UVA , MUSC and baylor, usually the more clinical, the less meaningful research(aka posters and case reports).

I'm split 60/40 in favor of clinical over research. That being said, I plan to stay in academics after fellowship and thus adequate research opportunities will be important.

Thanks for all of the input! I haven't heard many good things about any of the Florida programs. Are they all just sub-par?

 

[SRT 1983]

I for one think Jeff is a pretty solid program. My best friend is a resident there and I spent 2 weeks as a rotating resident there 2 yrs ago . Faculty is laid back and approachable , they probably have the best location/hospital in the Philly area ( and that includes Penn).
Pros :Excellent clinical program,great pathology, happy fellows, location, Masters available , strong residency program, great ancillary staff .
Cons: Paper charts, no transplant , no superstar faculty, in house night float, they do have basic science labs but I agree not their strongest suit and the PD was very upfront about it during the interview.

I think the general rule for Philly is HUP>> Temple= TJU >>> everybody else

 

[nycscope]

I for one think Jeff is a pretty solid program. My best friend is a resident there and I spent 2 weeks as a rotating resident there 2 yrs ago . Faculty is laid back and approachable , they probably have the best location/hospital in the Philly area ( and that includes Penn).
Pros :Excellent clinical program,great pathology, happy fellows, location, Masters available , strong residency program, great ancillary staff .
Cons: Paper charts, no transplant , no superstar faculty, in house night float, they do have basic science labs but I agree not their strongest suit and the PD was very upfront about it during the interview.

I think the general rule for Philly is HUP>> Temple= TJU >>> everybody else

Nonsense. Everyone has their opinion, but I can tell you that I've been thoroughly underwhelmed by every TJ residents' clinical skills that I've met...especially for all the **** they talk. Drexel and Temple see a ton of really, really low SES patients with zero medical literacy...they really have the "front lines" programs in Philly. HUP is world class research and advanced procedures. TJ has it all in terms of resources, but there is a serious problem with private docs using residents as secretaries with no learning offerred.

You can't compare them head to head like that because they excel at different things.

 

[SRT 1983]

Nonsense. Everyone has their opinion, but I can tell you that I've been thoroughly underwhelmed by every TJ residents' clinical skills that I've met...especially for all the **** they talk. Drexel and Temple see a ton of really, really low SES patients with zero medical literacy...they really have the "front lines" programs in Philly. HUP is world class research and advanced procedures. TJ has it all in terms of resources, but there is a serious problem with private docs using residents as secretaries with no learning offerred.

You can't compare them head to head like that because they excel at different things.

And this is exactly that, an opinion, and a very uninformed one I must add .
I stand by what I said and this sentiment is shared by most people I have worked with . HUP is obviously a top tier program but for IM , TJU recruits equally well if not better than Temple and both are way better than Drexel.
Last I checked( 2 yrs ago) there were zero private attendings in PCCM at Jeff but I guess like a lot of other places they might exist in GI/cards.

 

[jdh71]

This thread might be interesting this year.

 

[jdh71]

Wake has a nice program. It's heavier clinically, but world class asthma research if you're interested. They give you some protected time second year for research and will find something for you to do (most of the year) and you can get "more" if you're serious and/or productive (but that usually means: don't count on more actually). Busy ICU. No transplant. No VA. IP "fellowship" there which is good and bad - as it means that IP fellow will snake the procedures he wants and leave the rest for everyone else, but you'll obviously have first shot at the fellowship if you want it when you're done. YMMV. I liked the location and town in general, but it was a long way from family compared to other places I interview. I did rank them high on my list, but not first.

 

[nycscope]

And this is exactly that, an opinion, and a very uninformed one I must add .
I stand by what I said and this sentiment is shared by most people I have worked with . HUP is obviously a top tier program but for IM , TJU recruits equally well if not better than Temple and both are way better than Drexel.
Last I checked( 2 yrs ago) there were zero private attendings in PCCM at Jeff but I guess like a lot of other places they might exist in GI/cards.

Better than Drexel (or Einstein for that matter) based on what metric? Your gut feeling?
Listen, it comes down to your n=1 vs my n=1. I am not misinformed, and don't really care if you agree or not.

 

[mochief2000]

ooooooooooooh srt1983, nycscope just said Drexel is not better than Thomas Jefferson. Are you going to let him say that about Thomas Jefferson like that?

 

[jdh71]

ooooooooooooh srt1983, nycscope just said Drexel is not better than Thomas Jefferson. Are you going to let him say that about Thomas Jefferson like that?

Stahp lol

You guys seriously. Agree to Disagree. I don't mind a few posts of pissing contest and or dick measuring but let's not fill the thread with it.

It's a free internet so do what you like but it's probably better for the thread to keep it more on the application cycle.

 

[CritiPulm]

Lets discuss this again when one of us gets any interviews from any of those places!

 

[Captopril]

I'm split 60/40 in favor of clinical over research. That being said, I plan to stay in academics after fellowship and thus adequate research opportunities will be important.

Thanks for all of the input! I haven't heard many good things about any of the Florida programs. Are they all just sub-par?

Any specifics about the FL programs? I have a friend at UF and another at USF and they both like their programs a lot.

 

[mochief2000]

UF jax and USF solid clinical programs. Miracle whip....I mean Mayo not impressed clinically but solid research. CCF was just pulm until last year, but added the critical cares so still building it name. I heard UF Gainesville so solid, but hopefully someone else with more experience with program can chime in. UF jax doesn't have transplant Inhouse but does it at mayo. Good thing is nobody has interventional pulm yet (with the exception of UF Gainesville) so nobody is sharing procedures. They do EBUS by 2nd year at theses places. If you get an interview from fl count your blessings as most are primarily taking from Inhouse with the increased interest in pulm/Crit. Esp USF, CCF and UF jax.

 

[Hernandez]

CCF was just pulm until last year, but added the critical cares so still building it name. I .

That's inaccurate. They've been combined for a while, they added a separate CC fellowship in 2009ish

 

[mochief2000]

That's inaccurate. They've been combined for a while, they added a separate CC fellowship in 2009ish

umm, I am pretty sure when I called last year, she (residency coordinator) told me that the Pulm/Crit just opened up as it use to be just Pulm. I may have taken that as last year, but just opened up usually does not mean 6 years ago. Either way, relatively new program.

 

[Hernandez]

I'm sorry but you must have misunderstood. The critical care only fellowship opened 2009-2010 area (I'm an old fart was interviewing for pulm-cc then and it was a combined program), they've had a combined pulm-cc for a lot longer and they've had a fellowship at least since the 80s, one of previous mentors graduated in ~85 when it was pulm only and I know people who know people. I wouldn't worry about CCF not being an established program.

 

[mochief2000]

cool thanks for the clarification.