Official 2019 Rank Order Lists

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Why not Davis then? The area clearly appeals to you and it doesn't seem like you're super driven to do something in academia.

Just reading your thoughts makes it sound like you're just trying to convince yourself that it isn't where you want to be.

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Thanks for the advice. I'm not at all interested in an academic career. I'm not extremely interested in research. I like the idea of doing general adult psychiatry, addiction, possibly some palliative.

I'm especially excited about musc given their addictions experience. Charleston seems like a great place and with a beach nearby, might satisfy us until we eventually return home to socal.

Why not Davis then? The area clearly appeals to you and it doesn't seem like you're super driven to do something in academia.

Just reading your thoughts makes it sound like you're just trying to convince yourself that it isn't where you want to be.

Ya... I agree with ridethecliche. Also, Sacramento doesn't "suck" anymore. It's a lot more affordable than the Bay Area and isn't overrun by tech professionals (yet). Solid coffee scene, great proximity to outdoors stuff, and the residents there have it pretty cush.
 
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Why not Davis then? The area clearly appeals to you and it doesn't seem like you're super driven to do something in academia.

Just reading your thoughts makes it sound like you're just trying to convince yourself that it isn't where you want to be.

That's pretty spot on, I'm definitely trying to talk myself out of it....its just that after life in SD and SF, Sacramento just seems so meh...although it is quite close to Tahoe and all the other stuff we have in NorCal. The program seems to fit my personality as well, although others on the list do too (Colorado less so).

That said, it would be so awesome to get to experience something else besides California for four years. Part of me wants to never leave and part of me wants to go (a little moreso considering it's Sacramento and I'm an insufferable snob).
 
That's pretty spot on, I'm definitely trying to talk myself out of it....its just that after life in SD and SF, Sacramento just seems so meh...although it is quite close to Tahoe and all the other stuff we have in NorCal. The program seems to fit my personality as well, although others on the list do too (Colorado less so).

That said, it would be so awesome to get to experience something else besides California for four years. Part of me wants to never leave and part of me wants to go (a little moreso considering it's Sacramento and I'm an insufferable snob).

Sacramento is its own breed and is very different than SD and SF. Try it out, you may end up liking it--it's evolved a lot over the years... maybe even watch Lady Bird for some Sacramento inspo. Also, if you're at all interested in palliative care, Dr. Nathan Fairman at Davis is a leader in palliative psychiatry. That being said, if you really want to get out of California but want to preserve the liberal feel, OHSU and UT Austin sound like great options. MUSC may be a little too far.

Now that we've discussed your rank list at length, it would be nice for others to have a chance :)
 
My interests are at the intersection of child psych and refugee/immigrant/intercultural psych. I see myself as a clinical educator who advocates for/with these populations and writes reviews/book chapters and perhaps conducts clinical research from time to time.
I'm flexible with geography and city size. If I had to give my best guess, I'd say I'd end up living in the mountain west after training, but I'm open to where life sweeps me! Bonus points for a program that has good access to year-round hiking and natural landscapes. These 5 programs are all vying for my number 1!

New Mexico seemed like a terrific fit: really palpable commitment to marginalized communities and some of the faculty members are basically who I want to be, conducting asylum evals, caring for migrant children, working at UNM's refugee clinic (all of which I can be meaningfully involved in during my 3 years of adult training!), meanwhile publishing, advocating, and speaking on mental health in these populations. Plus, the landscape is stunning with diverse terrains, temperature is pretty mild all year, and it's easy to hit up Utah/CO for even !more! nature (and residents really seem able to access all of this natural glory often!). Training seemed solid, strong psychotherapy which I appreciate, residents felt happy, and faculty trained across the country and seemed very invested in education. A downside could be that there's minimal exposure to the worried well and maaaaybe too laidback? For example, it seemed like not many residents interested in publishing.

However, these other 4 programs complicate things.
Vermont: I loved the small program, the progressive town, the humane mental health care, and the availability of resources for patients. Though I enjoyed the residents everywhere I've interviewed, I think I'm most similar to the Vermont residents. Perhaps sparkliest of all is the Family Based Approach that is practiced in their child psych clinics: wowowow. It's child psych as it should be with psych evals for the whole family and bountiful wellness resources available. Big con: not very diverse culturally. Sure, there's a Bhutanese refugee population, but it's not very significant. Do I pass up exposure to intercultural psychiatry to obtain really excellent, unique child training? Same question goes for Dartmouth: both are very homogenous locales, but should I consider waiting until after training to develop expertise in refugee/immigrant psych in order to access top-notch general/child training? I'd feel a little down pressing pause on this important aspect of my career goals for 5 years, but if it makes me more effective in the long-run, I can surely do it and will enjoy general psych along the way!

Boston U: very well-established refugee clinic, many experts in refugee/immigrant mental health come from BU, strong commitment to underserved.

Dartmouth and UTSW: can I really rank the other 3 over these 2 super solid programs? Both have a diverse array of expert faculty, excellent resources available to residents, and are very well-regarded from what I understand. Both regularly send residents to tippy top child programs (MGH, Yale, Stanford). (Note: the other 3 programs also send residents to those child fellowships, but with less frequency). Could having those names/connections/trainings behind me lend me more of a platform to be an advocate for refugee/immigrant child psych at a national level? It's hard for me to believe training is *that* different among university programs, but maybe they are? Should I simply head to New Mexico and start immersing in the populations I most imagine myself working with? Or should I jive with experts at BU or obtain unique child training that I can take with me from Vermont?

In my shoes, how would you square all of this? Any thoughts are very appreciated!

Still torn between these great choices (UNM, UVM, Boston U, Dartmouth, UTSW) as someone who wants great training and has plans to do CAP with a special interest in refugee/immigrant populations. Think I'd like to advocate, teach, and write on mental health in these populations. Any advice on which program(s) are the best fit for my next step?
 
Still torn between these great choices (UNM, UVM, Boston U, Dartmouth, UTSW) as someone who wants great training and has plans to do CAP with a special interest in refugee/immigrant populations. Think I'd like to advocate, teach, and write on mental health in these populations. Any advice on which program(s) are the best fit for my next step?
I say go where you feel you'd do best. There's nothing worse than having regrets (though to a large part with this process, it's impossible to avoid). Based on how much you prioritize working with refugee populations and your impression of the programs, I'd say go New Mexico or Boston U. CAP is easy to get later as most of the fellowships go unfilled and also you don't really spend much time doing CAP in general residency, so it doesn't really make sense to prioritize that now.

Residency is what you make of it. Go somewhere you can best accomplish what you want, rather than prioritizing prestige. The best teachers our usually the ones without the titles or credentials anyway.

P.s. I'm a UTSW happy with the program and Dallas (or as happy as one can be in residency), but I chose it because of fit/goals rather than prestige. So you really can't go wrong with an decision you make.
 
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Still torn between these great choices (UNM, UVM, Boston U, Dartmouth, UTSW) as someone who wants great training and has plans to do CAP with a special interest in refugee/immigrant populations. Think I'd like to advocate, teach, and write on mental health in these populations. Any advice on which program(s) are the best fit for my next step?

As high up as UVM is on my own list-in-process, I really don't know how it aligns with your goals. Vermont is incredibly white and I feel like UTSW and BU would be a much better location for the patient population that you want. Id think that Dartmouth would be similar to uvm in the regard.

With the way Healthcare is set up in Massachusetts, it's a pretty awesome place to practice with marginalized and socioeconomically disenfranchised populations since theres a lot that one can do relative to other places.

Where do you think that you'd want to live?
 
I say go where you feel you'd do best. There's nothing worse than having regrets (though to a large part with this process, it's impossible to avoid). Based on how much you prioritize working with refugee populations and your impression of the programs, I'd say go New Mexico or Boston U. CAP is easy to get later as most of the fellowships go unfilled and also you don't really spend much time doing CAP in general residency, so it doesn't really make sense to prioritize that now.

Residency is what you make of it. Go somewhere you can best accomplish what you want, rather than prioritizing prestige. The best teachers our usually the ones without the titles or credentials anyway.

P.s. I'm a UTSW happy with the program and Dallas (or as happy as one can be in residency), but I chose it because of fit/goals rather than prestige. So you really can't go wrong with an decision you make.

Thank you! It's good to hear from a resident that I can only predict so much e.g. with teachers/mentors. I think a part of me is worried there IS some magical difference in quality between university programs (eg UNM vs UTSW/Dartmouth/Colorado) that I should be able to discern pre-ranking---a view which seems to be endorsed by some posters and denied by others in our endless tussles with the worthiness of prestige. I hadn't found any other applicant ever ask about prestige utility when it comes to advocacy so thought I'd ask!

I super appreciated reading your UTSW posts over the last couple years: it added to the large pile of folks who have attested to it being a really terrific place and prompted me to apply.

As high up as UVM is on my own list-in-process, I really don't know how it aligns with your goals. Vermont is incredibly white and I feel like UTSW and BU would be a much better location for the patient population that you want. Id think that Dartmouth would be similar to uvm in the regard.

With the way Healthcare is set up in Massachusetts, it's a pretty awesome place to practice with marginalized and socioeconomically disenfranchised populations since theres a lot that one can do relative to other places.

Where do you think that you'd want to live?

That's great to hear about Massachusetts! Definitely agree on the homogeneity of NH/VT: I wouldn't get the population I want to ultimately work with, but maybe opportunities to work with UVM's Family Based CAP program or Dartmouth's anthropology dept (as suggested by PD) would sweeten the pot during my residency years and I could take what I learned/worked on with me and apply it to refugee populations. I also wonder if I should be focusing on becoming a really crackerjack psychiatrist before focusing on my niche interest (I notice that lots of influencers in refugee mental health didn't necessarily train in diverse areas). If I had to give my best guess, I'd say I'd end up living in the mountain west after training, but I'm open to where life sweeps me. And even though I think that area could be wonderful to eventually live in, I don't at all mind living elsewhere for 3-5 years if it could help me be a better clinician and advocate.
 
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Did anybody interview at GWU and have any opinions on the program?
 
I'm interested in outpatient/psychotherapy, neuromod, and interventional psychiatry (DBS/VNS etc). Analytic institute nearby would be a plus. Leaning toward academics, but no particular fellowship aspirations at this time. Much more interested in educational/administrative work/writing vs running a lab, but down for some clinical research. I could see myself being a PD or Chair someday, but I'd also like to be well prepared to jump ship into private practice if I decide to do that. Would prefer lower COL/smaller city with decent outdoors access, but I enjoy some aspects of city living (food scene, live music, arts). I would ideally like to live in a single-family house with a yard. I don't mind working hard but I'd prefer to avoid places that are straight up malignant and/or sweatshops. Help me think about my list:

- BWH
- Emory
- UPMC
- Dartmouth
- U Mich
- UNC
- University of Maryland /Sheppard Pratt
- Hopkins
- Brown

Thanks!
 
I'm interested in outpatient/psychotherapy, neuromod, and interventional psychiatry (DBS/VNS etc). Analytic institute nearby would be a plus. Leaning toward academics, but no particular fellowship aspirations at this time. Much more interested in educational/administrative work/writing vs running a lab, but down for some clinical research. I could see myself being a PD or Chair someday, but I'd also like to be well prepared to jump ship into private practice if I decide to do that. Would prefer lower COL/smaller city with decent outdoors access, but I enjoy some aspects of city living (food scene, live music, arts). I would ideally like to live in a single-family house with a yard. I don't mind working hard but I'd prefer to avoid places that are straight up malignant and/or sweatshops. Help me think about my list:

- BWH
- Emory
- UPMC
- Dartmouth
- U Mich
- UNC
- University of Maryland /Sheppard Pratt
- Hopkins
- Brown

Thanks!

What did you think about these programs/areas? Your personal vibe with the people, programs, and cities are huge. Or are these all equal in your mind?
 
What did you think about these programs/areas? Your personal vibe with the people, programs, and cities are huge. Or are these all equal in your mind?

I was hoping to get others' impressions and opinions on these programs without them just saying "oh it sounds like you like x the most, go there" so I ended up deleting my specific notes on each one. The list is more or less in the order that I would rank the programs today based on my combined impression of the quality of training, career opportunities, desirability of the region, and how I liked the faculty and residents.
 
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I'm interested in outpatient/psychotherapy, neuromod, and interventional psychiatry (DBS/VNS etc). Analytic institute nearby would be a plus. Leaning toward academics, but no particular fellowship aspirations at this time. Much more interested in educational/administrative work/writing vs running a lab, but down for some clinical research. I could see myself being a PD or Chair someday, but I'd also like to be well prepared to jump ship into private practice if I decide to do that. Would prefer lower COL/smaller city with decent outdoors access, but I enjoy some aspects of city living (food scene, live music, arts). I would ideally like to live in a single-family house with a yard. I don't mind working hard but I'd prefer to avoid places that are straight up malignant and/or sweatshops. Help me think about my list:

- BWH
- Emory
- UPMC
- Dartmouth
- U Mich
- UNC
- University of Maryland /Sheppard Pratt
- Hopkins
- Brown

Thanks!

I was hoping to get others' impressions and opinions on these programs without them just saying "oh it sounds like you like x the most, go there" so I ended up deleting my specific notes on each one. The list is more or less in the order that I would rank the programs today based on my combined impression of the quality of training, career opportunities, desirability of the region, and how I liked the faculty and residents.

UPMC's clinical educator tract is quite legit. The location is unbeatable when everything is considered, as well as the quality and breadth of clinical training they offer. BWH is great culture wise, and if the Harvard name does you any good, but the COL in Boston doubles that of Pittsburgh, and housing price triples.*Comparison: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania - Boston, Massachusetts
 
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Struggling to order the following: Tulane, Tufts, Maine Med, Rush, Loyola
I'm interested in a program with good psychodynamic training, a diverse mix of patients (high functioning to underserved), opportunities to explore palliative care. Not interested in research, but could possibly see myself doing some academic/educational writing of some sort down the road. Side interests include culture/arts, food, yoga, writing.

- Tulane: liked the faculty/residents, nice facilities, academic track available, new orleans is very romantic but gritty, somewhat afraid of flooding, have never lived in the south, new VA leadership might indicate upcoming changes?
- Tufts: good psychodynamics, well connected faculty, early therapy training, good diversity of patients (except no VA), tons of stuff to do in the city but COL is so high and program feels small with somewhat worn facilities
- Maine: liked the PD and program coordinator, has a nice supportive community feel, pretty scenery/nature, cozy small town but not that ethnically diverse
- Rush/Loyola: Chicago is great and I have connections there, but I'm not sure if either program is the perfect fit. I like the faculty/residents at Loyola but they mainly train at the state facility or the VA. Rush has good opportunities but I worry about the work/life balance. Not sure if either program has a psychodynamic focus.
 
Trickle down invites are real. Just got one more to shake up the rank list.
 
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I'm interested in outpatient/psychotherapy, neuromod, and interventional psychiatry (DBS/VNS etc). Analytic institute nearby would be a plus. Leaning toward academics, but no particular fellowship aspirations at this time. Much more interested in educational/administrative work/writing vs running a lab, but down for some clinical research. I could see myself being a PD or Chair someday, but I'd also like to be well prepared to jump ship into private practice if I decide to do that. Would prefer lower COL/smaller city with decent outdoors access, but I enjoy some aspects of city living (food scene, live music, arts). I would ideally like to live in a single-family house with a yard. I don't mind working hard but I'd prefer to avoid places that are straight up malignant and/or sweatshops. Help me think about my list:

- BWH
- Emory
- UPMC
- Dartmouth
- U Mich
- UNC
- University of Maryland /Sheppard Pratt
- Hopkins
- Brown

Thanks!
Just so you know, while BWH is an excellent program in many ways and is indeed interested in producing academic psychiatrists, it's quite biologically leaning and weaker on therapy. Of course you'll have access to BPSI as any other psychiatry resident in Boston, but the point is you will need to seek additional/external training if you want to be a somewhat decent therapist.

I'm surprised Brown is so low on your list. Very much into neuromodulation, solid therapy training, very academically minded, smaller city, good resident quality of life and cost of living, not to mention that residents apparently can make a lot by moonlighting
 
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I'm interested in outpatient/psychotherapy, neuromod, and interventional psychiatry (DBS/VNS etc). Analytic institute nearby would be a plus. Leaning toward academics, but no particular fellowship aspirations at this time. Much more interested in educational/administrative work/writing vs running a lab, but down for some clinical research. I could see myself being a PD or Chair someday, but I'd also like to be well prepared to jump ship into private practice if I decide to do that. Would prefer lower COL/smaller city with decent outdoors access, but I enjoy some aspects of city living (food scene, live music, arts). I would ideally like to live in a single-family house with a yard. I don't mind working hard but I'd prefer to avoid places that are straight up malignant and/or sweatshops. Help me think about my list:

- BWH
- Emory
- UPMC
- Dartmouth
- U Mich
- UNC
- University of Maryland /Sheppard Pratt
- Hopkins
- Brown

Thanks!

Just so you know, while BWH is an excellent program in many ways and is indeed interested in producing academic psychiatrists, it's quite biologically leaning and weaker on therapy. Of course you'll have access to BPSI as any other psychiatry resident in Boston, but the point is you will need to seek additional/external training if you want to be a somewhat decent therapist.

I'm surprised Brown is so low on your list. Very much into neuromodulation, solid therapy training, very academically minded, smaller city, good resident quality of life and cost of living, not to mention that residents apparently can make a lot by moonlighting

+1 to the above response, BWH seems to be heading in a very biologic direction after the Longwood split. UPMC has a similar reputation, but I did not interview there. If you want a single family house with a yard, good therapy training, lower CoL in a smaller city, then Boston is definitely not for you (saying this as someone who lives here now and loves it). Darmouth is a great program that definitely matches your interests if you're ok with a rural area. Agree with Amygdarya, I loved Brown when I went there, and it seems to fit what you want really well both in terms of lifestyle and your psych interests. What made it slide so far down?

For everyone on this thread, it really would be helpful to hear what you thought about the places you interview, otherwise we'll have a harder time giving you advice!
 
Just so you know, while BWH is an excellent program in many ways and is indeed interested in producing academic psychiatrists, it's quite biologically leaning and weaker on therapy. Of course you'll have access to BPSI as any other psychiatry resident in Boston, but the point is you will need to seek additional/external training if you want to be a somewhat decent therapist.
I'd says this is a bit of a misconception. While the program staff is overall very biologically minded, that's mostly the CL staff. There are multiple attendings on both the inpatient and outpatient side who are analytically trained or who otherwise maintain a separate psychodynamic (or combined PD/meds) practice. There's also tons of support and encouragement to carry plenty of psychodynamic and CBT cases. Definitely not the very most robust place for therapy (BIDMC, CAH would be better), but not as bad as you make it sound.
 
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+1 to the above response, BWH seems to be heading in a very biologic direction after the Longwood split. UPMC has a similar reputation, but I did not interview there. If you want a single family house with a yard, good therapy training, lower CoL in a smaller city, then Boston is definitely not for you (saying this as someone who lives here now and loves it). Darmouth is a great program that definitely matches your interests if you're ok with a rural area. Agree with Amygdarya, I loved Brown when I went there, and it seems to fit what you want really well both in terms of lifestyle and your psych interests. What made it slide so far down?

For everyone on this thread, it really would be helpful to hear what you thought about the places you interview, otherwise we'll have a harder time giving you advice!

The residents and faculty at bwh seemed to think it would be feasible to rent a house in the burbs and commute in. At brown I had a really unpleasant interview that kind of soured me on the place, although the farther I get from that the more I feel like I shouldn’t let it stop me from ranking it higher. I’m conflicted.
 
The residents and faculty at bwh seemed to think it would be feasible to rent a house in the burbs and commute in.

That sounds terrible, and the Boston rental market is such you have to go pretty far out in order to make a significant impact on rental pricing.
 
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That sounds terrible, and the Boston rental market is such you have to go pretty far out in order to make a significant impact on rental pricing.

Pricing is honestly less of an issue, between me and SO we’ll be making >2x my pgy1 salary. The reason I’m targeting low col is more because I want a house with a yard rather than an apartment and those lower COL cities tend to have more of the type of housing im after.
 
Pricing is honestly less of an issue, between me and SO we’ll be making >2x my pgy1 salary. The reason I’m targeting low col is more because I want a house with a yard rather than an apartment and those lower COL cities tend to have more of the type of housing im after.

If that's honestly something you're interested in, Boston is going to be tough.

You'll be best off looking at places in Jamaica Plain and Roslindale or Watertown or maybe Medford area. You could get lucky in Brighton, but you'd still be looking at a first floor apartment with sole yard access vs a house with its own yard. Houses in places like Newton are hella expensive. The commute into the city also blows if you're not reverse commuting. Time is going to be a luxury at least for the first year, but hey... People have done it so it's really a question of where you think you'll be most happy. You might lucky around the commuter rail, but driving during rush hour to and from along the route 9 towns blows so so so bad.

Honestly though, if you don't have kids or only have a young kid, you're really selling yourself short not living within T distance.

Greater than 2x PGY1 salary is what... 120-130k pre taxes? The Boston metro housing market sucks. The living experience there is a huge minus for me and I loved living there before med school.

Tldr: if you've never lived in Boston before and don't have a family size such that you need to do this ... Don't do yourself a disservice by commuting that early on. Maybe pgy 2/3 when you've gotten a feel for the area.

Rereading this... I apparently have a few thoughts on this matter lol.
 
The residents and faculty at bwh seemed to think it would be feasible to rent a house in the burbs and commute in. At brown I had a really unpleasant interview that kind of soured me on the place, although the farther I get from that the more I feel like I shouldn’t let it stop me from ranking it higher. I’m conflicted.
Lol - I pay >$3000 for a modest 2 bed apartment in one of the cheaper suburbs.
 
I'd says this is a bit of a misconception. While the program staff is overall very biologically minded, that's mostly the CL staff. There are multiple attendings on both the inpatient and outpatient side who are analytically trained or who otherwise maintain a separate psychodynamic (or combined PD/meds) practice. There's also tons of support and encouragement to carry plenty of psychodynamic and CBT cases. Definitely not the very most robust place for therapy (BIDMC, CAH would be better), but not as bad as you make it sound.
I'm basing my conclusions on discussions with Longwood graduates and their experiences on the BWH side of things, plus some of them are involved in teaching in the new BWH and expressed disappointment in the program leaning all the more biological at the expense of a more nuanced clinical approach. Sure, this being Boston, there are plenty of analytically trained faculty with their own private therapy practices, but I think the program administration being more biologically minded does matter, as that's where they're taking the program.

Anyway, I guess I should say that it depends on which programs you've comparing. Like you said, CHA and BIDMC have stronger therapy training than BWH, but BWH therapy training is still stronger than, say, WashU. Also depends on how much therapy you're looking for.
 
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Pricing is honestly less of an issue, between me and SO we’ll be making >2x my pgy1 salary. The reason I’m targeting low col is more because I want a house with a yard rather than an apartment and those lower COL cities tend to have more of the type of housing im after.

Yeah...if you want a house with a yard and low COL, Boston isn't your place. A DINK household could buy a home in any of those other markets, but in Boston you'd be looking at places outside of 495 realistically. Some deals remain in Medford/Malden but not for long. Maybe if you want to live near Lynn...but getting to longwood from there is an hour.

If you have family willing to gift you the down payment, ignore the above.
 
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Lol - I pay >$3000 for a modest 2 bed apartment in one of the cheaper suburbs.

I moved here and felt like paying 2800 for a 2 bed 1.5 bath walking distance to longwood with parking was criminal...now I am afraid to talk about it for fear the landlord will wise up and raise the rent.

Unless you have family in Boston or are independently weathly, I have no idea why people live here long term. Makes for a nice experience and subsequent "what the **** was I thinking".
 
Pricing is honestly less of an issue, between me and SO we’ll be making >2x my pgy1 salary. The reason I’m targeting low col is more because I want a house with a yard rather than an apartment and those lower COL cities tend to have more of the type of housing im after.

A yard in Boston is a waste; there are only 3-4 days per year where you could potentially use it. What you really want is garage parking for your car. #kiddingnotkidding
 
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The residents and faculty at bwh seemed to think it would be feasible to rent a house in the burbs and commute in.

Its possible they think that because the faculty bought years ago and the residents live in the city and don't really know what they're talking about... That's the type of commute I'd wish on my worst enemy assuming you could even find the type of rental you're looking for (granted, being double income does help a lot).

Can't really comment on the program itself but just chiming in as another past Boston resident...
 
I moved here and felt like paying 2800 for a 2 bed 1.5 bath walking distance to longwood with parking was criminal...now I am afraid to talk about it for fear the landlord will wise up and raise the rent.

Unless you have family in Boston or are independently weathly, I have no idea why people live here long term. Makes for a nice experience and subsequent "what the **** was I thinking".[/QUOTE]

So... which Boston residencies are worth high COL?? Granted I’ve heard moonlighting makes high COL more palatable.
 
So... which Boston residencies are worth high COL?? Granted I’ve heard moonlighting makes high COL more palatable.

COL and the non-program quality of life factors are intensely personal. Boston has many wonderful residencies--whether they're 'worth it' compared to places in cheaper locations is entirely due to someone's personal preferences and situation (single? Dual income? Kids? Can't fathom having roommates? Relatives nearby? Hate driving?) . No one can answer those questions for anyone else, although we can offer perspectives when it seems someone is misinformed about some aspect.
 
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If you're living in Boston for residency and want a good QOL house, you need to come from money or have a spouse with a bomb job.

Like I said, I loved living in Beantown, but the only way I could see doing it as a resident is with roommates. Or if you could put down for a down payment, then buy a condo and rent out the other room to someone.

I cannot imagine myself in Boston long term. The housing market makes no bloody sense. At my UMass interview everyone was talking about how they bought a house within 30 mins of work for an absurdly little amount of money in comparison.

If I wanted Boston amenities, I'd live on route 9 slash 495 area and commute to bloody worcester and use the proximity to Boston to get there when I felt like it.

I can't stress this enough. . I love boston but I don't think the city offers enough for what it costs.

I love CHA, but the only reason I can see that being viable is that I'm single and can live with roommates and I have a few attending friends that would let me rent a room in their house because they know how absurd things are.

Living as a renter in a 3BR/1BA was fine right out of undergrad. I wouldn't want to do it again in my thirties... The room I used to pay 650 a month for 10 years ago js likely 850-1000 now in Davis Square.

Gross...
 
Another Bostonian chiming in - 3 bedroom apartment in Jamaica Plain for $2250. I found a good deal. I love living here and don't mind the commute (my longest is to Mclean, about 40 minutes), it helps if you can adopt a masshole mentality while driving. I would never move here if I wanted a yard, though.

I will disagree though with the notion that Boston doesn't offer enough to justify the cost. I've been very, very happy here.
 
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I grew up in Boston; it's a really nice city. It's clean, safe, diverse and full of (wicked) smart, interesting people. If you are childless, you'll be fine there on a $60k salary; even better if you consider a roommate or have a partner who has an income.
 
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Another Bostonian chiming in - 3 bedroom apartment in Jamaica Plain for $2250. I found a good deal. I love living here and don't mind the commute (my longest is to Mclean, about 40 minutes), it helps if you can adopt a masshole mentality while driving. I would never move here if I wanted a yard, though.

I will disagree though with the notion that Boston doesn't offer enough to justify the cost. I've been very, very happy here.

What other cities have you spent time in or lived in? Because Boston prices are close to NYC prices now and it doesn't even come close in terms of the amenities.

Phillys an arguably better city with far more depth to it. I'm not white and Boston has always felt a bit segregated to me. Then theres the kinda elitist and snobby aspect of it too which really depends on where you are both in the city and institution. Socially cities also start to change when you price out the so called creative class. I guess I just like the more working class city ish.

Don't get me wrong, I lived and worked in Boston for years and loved it. I have a great group of friends there and visit often and I'd love to train there at CHA. JP is great spot and having the arboretum there is far better than having a yard!

Tldr: Boston is great and I love camberville. You just really have to be realistic about what you can afford in the housing market. A house with a fenced in yard within greater Boston city limits is a bit of a daydream unless youre independently wealthy or have a partner with a high paying job.

That's all I got. A lot of this is obviously personal opinion and depends on what you're looking for. The only totally objective part is basically regarding the housing market. But I'm single and don't mind living with roommates so it's not a big deal to me.
 
What other cities have you spent time in or lived in? Because Boston prices are close to NYC prices now and it doesn't even come close in terms of the amenities.

Phillys an arguably better city with far more depth to it. I'm not white and Boston has always felt a bit segregated to me. Then theres the kinda elitist and snobby aspect of it too which really depends on where you are both in the city and institution. Socially cities also start to change when you price out the so called creative class. I guess I just like the more working class city ish.

Don't get me wrong, I lived and worked in Boston for years and loved it. I have a great group of friends there and visit often and I'd love to train there at CHA. JP is great spot and having the arboretum there is far better than having a yard!

Tldr: Boston is great and I love camberville. You just really have to be realistic about what you can afford in the housing market. A house with a fenced in yard within greater Boston city limits is a bit of a daydream unless youre independently wealthy or have a partner with a high paying job.

That's all I got. A lot of this is obviously personal opinion and depends on what you're looking for. The only totally objective part is basically regarding the housing market. But I'm single and don't mind living with roommates so it's not a big deal to me.

Years in Chicago (which Boston reminds me of in a lot of ways). Chicago is much cheaper and a really fantastic city, and a great place to live. I lived in a smaller city in Michigan in between.

I'm not suggesting it's not expensive in Boston (my rent here is 4x my mortgage was in Michigan), I'm saying that living here feels worth it to me. Living in a little college town for 4 years made me really re-appreciate city life, and my perception of what "justifies the cost." I get by just fine on my 70k/yr intern salary.
 
Anyone else have the feeling that the top of your ranklist doesn't matter because you will inevitably match at your last choice?
 
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Anyone else have the feeling that the top of your ranklist doesn't matter because you will inevitably match at your last choice?

Take in some holiday joy. It'll be a good year.
 
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Years in Chicago (which Boston reminds me of in a lot of ways). Chicago is much cheaper and a really fantastic city, and a great place to live. I lived in a smaller city in Michigan in between.

I'm not suggesting it's not expensive in Boston (my rent here is 4x my mortgage was in Michigan), I'm saying that living here feels worth it to me. Living in a little college town for 4 years made me really re-appreciate city life, and my perception of what "justifies the cost." I get by just fine on my 70k/yr intern salary.

I got by just fine on half that straight out of college. I used to live way out past Davis Square though. I loved it.

I honestly wouldn't have wanted to live anywhere else out of college. It was a fantastic experience.

I've heard great things about Chicago too. A close friend lived there for residency before moving to Boston for fellowship and staying on as an attending.

I just think folks need to realize that the real estate here is nothing like where they may be coming from unless they're coming from like new York or San Francisco lol.
 
At the expense of a more nuanced clinical approach.
I think you're really overstating the difference in the programs, especially given how hard they worked to keep the experience relatively even between the two sides for so long. The two sides are more similar than different. We'll see how things go post-split, but I think the differences prior to the split are minor.
 
I love Boston and am living here on a resident's salary along with my wife, with a similar income situation to what you describe. We pay in the mid 2000s for a small 2 BR walkable from my hospital. We have a small yard we share with others. No resident at any Boston hospital I know (and I know many) has a single family house with a yard, mostly because we want to have reasonable commutes. You could maybe rent something out in the more distant burbs for what you want with that money, but do not underestimate how unhappy a miserable commute will make you.

tl;dr Boston is an awesome city that imho is totally worth it. But it is extremely unlikely that you will be able to have the kind of living situation you describe.
 
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I love Boston and am living here on a resident's salary along with my wife, with a similar income situation to what you describe. We pay in the mid 2000s for a small 2 BR walkable from my hospital. We have a small yard we share with others. No resident at any Boston hospital I know (and I know many) has a single family house with a yard, mostly because we want to have reasonable commutes. You could maybe rent something out in the more distant burbs for what you want with that money, but do not underestimate how unhappy a miserable commute will make you.

tl;dr Boston is an awesome city that imho is totally worth it. But it is extremely unlikely that you will be able to have the kind of living situation you describe.
Providence, on the other hand...
 
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Providence, on the other hand...

I'll stan Providence, great city for sure. Did some rotations there in med school and loved it. Sometimes I hate that I love Boston, it feels like Stockholm Syndrome.
 
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Providence, on the other hand...

After residency I knew that I wanted and needed to stay in New England, but without any other constrainsts picked Providence and am very happy with the choice. We have a very nice house 4 minutes from work. The urban core is not nearly as large as Boston but it meets the needs I have in terms of restaurants and culture that have to be within a 10 minute commute. I am totally ok with needing to take a 55 minute train to get the Boston amenities when I need them. I haven't lived in enough places to compare it to other parts of the country but I think it hits the sweet spot for places to be a psychiatrist in New England. The pay here is also significantly better than Boston which amplifies the cost of living advantages.
 
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You guys need an entire thread to discuss new England livability...
 
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Question especially for the residents/attendings @Evidence Based @SmallBird etc

How likely is it that we will match into our top 3 if we're pretty much interviewing at only competitive places (per Doximity rankings)? I'm afraid that the competition is super tough at the top programs
 
For residency more than for med school, the intangibles take hold a bit more. Each program even on the top has it's pros and cons and strengths in terms of training. Additionally, folks are more likely to be married or engaged etc now and care about region a fair amount more. Those regional ties carry far more weight now than in med school which wasn't as intertwined with future geography ya know?

You guys need an entire thread to discuss new England livability...

Hahahhahaha!!!!!

After residency I knew that I wanted and needed to stay in New England, but without any other constrainsts picked Providence and am very happy with the choice. We have a very nice house 4 minutes from work. The urban core is not nearly as large as Boston but it meets the needs I have in terms of restaurants and culture that have to be within a 10 minute commute. I am totally ok with needing to take a 55 minute train to get the Boston amenities when I need them. I haven't lived in enough places to compare it to other parts of the country but I think it hits the sweet spot for places to be a psychiatrist in New England. The pay here is also significantly better than Boston which amplifies the cost of living advantages.

Please go to Los Andes for me and have a pisco sour or twenty.

/me drools.
 
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I'm interested in outpatient/psychotherapy, neuromod, and interventional psychiatry (DBS/VNS etc). Analytic institute nearby would be a plus. Leaning toward academics, but no particular fellowship aspirations at this time. Much more interested in educational/administrative work/writing vs running a lab, but down for some clinical research. I could see myself being a PD or Chair someday, but I'd also like to be well prepared to jump ship into private practice if I decide to do that. Would prefer lower COL/smaller city with decent outdoors access, but I enjoy some aspects of city living (food scene, live music, arts). I would ideally like to live in a single-family house with a yard. I don't mind working hard but I'd prefer to avoid places that are straight up malignant and/or sweatshops. Help me think about my list:

- BWH
- Emory
- UPMC
- Dartmouth
- U Mich
- UNC
- University of Maryland /Sheppard Pratt
- Hopkins
- Brown

Thanks!
None of these places will hurt you academically.
If you're looking for real estate, though, your options are best in Pitt>NC>SE Mich (but outside Ann Arbor city limits) on that list.
 
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