Ohio State vs. Duke for premed

[Bretzel]

Here are a few things to keep in mind...
Duke has a ton of premeds, and they all do fantastically when applying to med school. The journey towards your senior year, however, will be humbling. You will constantly be surrounded by brilliant people who you are (in some shape or another) competing with. I've seen a couple premeds have their spirits broken because they were the top students in their high school but were just an average premed at Duke. So it might sound disheartening, but I'd argue that this sort of humility is something you can't get at a state school. It's a valuable part of growing up, but you need to be ready for it.

Another thing to consider are the opportunities that Duke offers. At Duke, you pretty much have to try to not build your resume. There are so many unique opportunities available that it's VERY difficult to not sound impressive when applying to medical school. There are plenty of research opportunities, overseas volunteer experiences, etc... Everyone sounds incredible by the time they apply. This may or may not be the same at a state school....

Also, if you take a year or so off after graduating from Duke, there will be many more opportunities available to you before applying to med school. I know many students who are planning to take time off, and they will all certainly be doing something incredible.

I can't speak to your financial situation, but there are certainly perks to Duke that might not be at Ohio state. You have a tough decision ahead of you. If you end up at Duke, you will be in class with a lot of students who passed up similar financial offers to get a Duke education. The students who make that sort of decision are fully committed to Duke, and this shows because Duke has a sense of community unlike any other school I've seen.

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[mmmcdowe]

People will only care where you went to med school in the long run, not your undergrad. Period. Only the institution awarding the highest degree matters, or else we'd all be sitting here arguing about the relative quality of our middle schools.

To avoid turning this into another private vs. public debate, I'll try to keep my response constrained. Guess what, man... I worked my ass off too. And so did all of my friends who are applying to top-tier schools from this lowly state U. College rewards the effort you invest, no matter what name signs your diploma. Hell, my good friend last year was accepted to Columbia, Stanford, Baylor, UCSF, etc. and we're not talking about a 37/4.0. She just made awesome connections with the professors, which paid dividends in awards, research, and ECs. There's something to be said for being the big fish in the little pond. Maybe your friends didn't wind up at the "top-tier" schools because they didn't put in the effort... which would be independent of the UVA name, yes?

So please, stow the conceit. Plenty of the "best of the best" choose public education, knowing that they'll later pursue a graduate or professional degree that will bury them in debt. Your self-diagnosed super-competitive pathology is one I hope to avoid in my classes next Fall. If you can only use others as your measuring stick for personal and intellectual growth, well...

I go to ASU, we are the one time number one party school. Each year we send out dozens of med students to top schools. We might not have 10 kids in Harvard each year like some of the private schools, but I would wager that if you look at our overall spread among the top 20 programs, you'd be surprised. I mean, just in my circle of friends, six kids I know interviewed at Mayo, Johns Hopkins, and/or Harvard. I can only assume that there are others. If you have the talent and the drive, you can make it anywhere. And for the record, I think most people would agree that a 3.7 at Duke isn't as good as a 4.0 at OSU.

 

[nabeel76]

I don't know you, and frankly, I can't care less if you listen to my advice or not. However, if you stay this way, you will be miserable someday. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow; but you will be miserable eventually.

The only person you need to be competing with is yourself.

Again, good luck with whatever you choose. You can't go wrong with either school.

Trust me I am not miserable, I am not even sure what advice your talking about? I don't recall you giving me any advice?

 

[mmmcdowe]

Another thing to consider are the opportunities that Duke offers. At Duke, you pretty much have to try to not build your resume. There are so many unique opportunities available that it's VERY difficult to not sound impressive when applying to medical school. There are plenty of research opportunities, overseas volunteer experiences, etc... Everyone sounds incredible by the time they apply. This may or may not be the same at a state school....

Also, if you take a year or so off after graduating from Duke, there will be many more opportunities available to you before applying to med school. I know many students who are planning to take time off, and they will all certainly be doing something incredible.

I can't speak to your financial situation, but there are certainly perks to Duke that might not be at Ohio state. You have a tough decision ahead of you. If you end up at Duke, you will be in class with a lot of students who passed up similar financial offers to get a Duke education. The students who make that sort of decision are fully committed to Duke, and this shows because Duke has a sense of community unlike any other school I've seen.

Clearly that Duke humility is working out for you.

I'm interested to hear about your ECs. Give me a list of your top 3 that you think are super special.

 

[nabeel76]

I feel like Ohio State has the opportunities to be super-competitive for top-tier medical schools. Trust me taking all honors classes will be challenging. I feel like college is what you make of it more than where you go. Honestly, for a pre-med I would tell you OSU has everything you could want. I easily found research, clinical experience, shadowing, and volunteering here. Also since Ohio State is the largest university in the U.S. it has any club or activity you could want. If you look at the rankings every year OSU moves up a couple places and while it may not have the name as Duke people respect and know it.

I completely agree.

 

[bcat85]

OSU... I had this same conundrum essentially. I had to choose between a little liberal arts school for free and WashU for ~30 grand a year. I chose the little liberal arts school, and it was a fantastic time. I also got into 4 medical schools and interviewed at one of the top in the country. Go to OSU, save your money, and do your best there.

 

[nabeel76]

To avoid turning this into another private vs. public debate, I'll try to keep my response constrained. Guess what, man... I worked my ass off too. And so did all of my friends who are applying to top-tier schools from this lowly state U. College rewards the effort you invest, no matter what name signs your diploma.

First of all, I am not making blank statements here. I am not sure how many schools you have been to, but in my experience I can compare Northern Virginia Community College, UVA, GW and GMU. So here's my perspective on the differences,

I went to GW in 1995 so its been quite some time - assuming the academic climate has changed a little since then I wont include this in my comparision although GW was quite challenging.

I graduated from UVA in August 07 - in a nutshell I had to work my ass off for A's. The students were ALL competitive, they ALL cared about their education, they were ALL intelligent and mature. The level of application using the SAME textbooks as in other schools was immense, when students finish courses the majority of them REMEMBER the courses and can apply the knowledge learned to other courses. The notion of getting saved by a curve does not exist. If you see something that looks impossible on a test, at other schools you can rationalize that a good number of people will probably miss it and the curve will reflect that, at UVA, trust me, some how some way there ALWAYS tends to be a good number of people that WILL get that problem correct.


I have been at George Mason University in Fairfax, VA working on a 2nd degree in Chemistry over the past year and a half. Although I agree with everybody when they say that every opportunity that is available at other schools is available to me here as well, the students at UVA and GMU are NOT let me repeat NOT the same. I have been the number 1 score in the past 6 of 7 classes that I have taken, I haven't been studying anywhere near as hard as I did at UVA. The average student here does NOT care all that much about their grades, it makes it quite easy for the students who do care about their grades to obtain a high GPA. Which is slightly disceiving considering that I don't feel that some of the students who do end up getting A's really deserve them, as they don't really seem to understand the material as well as I feel they should to get that grade. It seems to be more memorization here than true understanding. Don't get me wrong I have to work to get an A but I am not competiting against others that are working as hard or that are as smart, so I tend to rest assured that I will get the A. That was clearly not the case at UVA, they were smarter and worked harder. NIGHT and DAY difference.

Northern VA community college - I was kind of impressed here by the professors, I would say the difficulty level is on par with GMU

At the end of the day, at UVA I studied hard and went above and beyond becuase I had to. Every last word or formula needed to be mastered, if Schrodingers equation was written in tiny font in a footnote to your textbook you'd better know it inside and out. At GMU I study hard and when I feel that I am confident that I will get an A I stop, can't help it - I just stop. I have picked up the bad habit to where when I see that little obscure footnote or section in the textbook that is overly complicated I skip it, becuase I am pretty sure that it won't be on the test and if it is everybody is going to miss it. The curve will deal with it. I can't get myself to study harder than I need to to get an A, which isn't quite as much here especially considering that I seem to be getting the A+'s in the class. At UVA I never got to the point where I could stop studying because of that uncertainty and was never able to get an A+ either.

To summarize I never meant to take this debate in this direction, I merely stated that some folks do care about the reputation and name of the school they attend and it is important to some people, I don't understand why you can't just agree with that. I am also not trying to take away from the accomplishments of people that do acheive a 3.5+ anywhere. That is a huge accomplishment and to achieve that at any school is hard and implies that you've worked your ass off but to foolishly think that a 3.5+ at Duke is the same as a 3.5+ at OSU is naive. If you think you can walk into an MIT/CIT/Harvard etc. class and accomplish the same thing gpa wise as at OSU I'd say your arrogant and haven't been humbled yet. The level of competition in your classes is what determines your GPA and NOT what you have actually learned, so while you can learn and be just as good a scientist or chemist or biologist or doctor coming from school x as school y you might not do as well GPA wise and that does at the end of the day speak about your abilities to people that don't know you. Sure if you have a 3.8+ at OSU you might also be able to have a 3.8+ at duke but thats not automatically inferred by people that are not aware of your abilities. However, if you have a 3.8+ at duke the majority of people will infer that to mean that you would compete at the highest level no matter where you were and that is why some people are impressed with the name of the school, those schools have that implication and for good reason.

 

[schismal]

I'd say your arrogant and haven't been humbled yet.

The irony in this statement is not lost on me.

While your life story was entertaining, it does nothing to change the fact that every anecdote in this thread has inherent bias. One's college experience is very much an interactive dynamic--you shape it as much as it shapes you.

So I'm not sure how you know the grades of every person in your classes. I'm not sure how you know all your classmates well enough to judge whether they are "smart enough for an A." And I'm not sure how you know that you were the highest scorer in your last 7 classes. But I suppose it boils down to your personality. I merely hope that the interview process of evaluating "fitment" will preclude us from choosing the same med school, because we clearly have different approaches to succeeding in an academic environment.

 

[Perrotfish]

Just an FYI: In general private schools give out higher median GPAs than public schools accepting the same quality of students (as measured by SAT and GPA). I don't know about Duke and Ohio specifically, but it's worth checking whether this trend holds. If it does, Duke may be worth the money.

Also, once again, there's a good chance you won't be a premed in 4 years. A lot of people find out they either hate the courses or just hate hospitals. Duke might open a lot more doors if you decide to be, say, a business major or pre-law. Then again you'd feel the debt a lot more if you did that.

 

[nabeel76]

The only person you need to be competing with is yourself.:

P.S. I whole heartedly disagree with that statement, competition is healthy. You will never push yourself to your maximum ability in anything, whether it be academically, athletically, etc. without competition. In case you've forgot the best athlethes in the world are a product of extreme competition. Some folks cannot compete on that level and are forced to drop out of the running and only then will the best of a society based on true talent will be produced - hence Olympians and professional athletes.

Here is an academical example, the majority of people would not study 80 hours if they can accomplish the same thing in 40 hours? Would you? The better your competition the closer to 80 hours you'd probably HAVE to study to acheive that same result. Some people will not find enough hours in the day to compete and will be forced out of the major or school altogether. At the end of the day the successful students have probably learned and will retain that information better down the road - therefore bettering themselves as a result. Do you fail to recognize that it was the competition that drove them to study more to acheive that same result that ended up bettering them in the first place? Or are you one of the few people that study 80 hours to accomplish what you can in 40 hours for the mere fact that you have nothing better to do w/ your time.

Competition produces the best in a society and the best will serve society with the natural talent that they were given.

 

[searun]

Capitalism sucks. I am sick of Golden Parachutes. The free market is not free. But at least the Duke football team produces competent ortho surgeons. The Ohio State football team just produces road kill for the NFL and entertainment for the donors with Golden Parachutes.

 

[Bretzel]

Clearly that Duke humility is working out for you.

I'm interested to hear about your ECs. Give me a list of your top 3 that you think are super special.

haha...i was trying to speak to how impressed I am with what my peers at duke have accomplished...not myself

My point was that I don't know a single premed at Duke that hasn't impressed me with what they've done in the past four years....This is partly the nature of the student body but Duke definitely helps by offering so many opportunities.

 

[vadd0]

I think I can bring some simplifications to arguments being made...

If you went to a private school for most of your life, Duke probably would be a better fit. If you went to a public school for most of your life, Ohio State probably would be a better fit.

My point is simply for every opportunity you can have at Duke, you can have at Ohio State. But Ohio State is giving you money to go. If anyone believes Duke has something that Ohio State doesn't, please speak up.

 

[nabeel76]

The irony in this statement is not lost on me.

While your life story was entertaining, it does nothing to change the fact that every anecdote in this thread has inherent bias. One's college experience is very much an interactive dynamic--you shape it as much as it shapes you.

So I'm not sure how you know the grades of every person in your classes. I'm not sure how you know all your classmates well enough to judge whether they are "smart enough for an A." And I'm not sure how you know that you were the highest scorer in your last 7 classes. But I suppose it boils down to your personality. I merely hope that the interview process of evaluating "fitment" will preclude us from choosing the same med school, because we clearly have different approaches to succeeding in an academic environment.

I agree with the fact that one's college experience is shaped by the individual and that you can acheive greatness in either college. Like I said in one of my previous posts I never implied that one school will get you any further down the road. So I am not sure why you keep talking about this. And yes, "fitment", does play a role but that is subjective and I don't recall the OP ever once mentioning that he might not be a good "fit" at Duke?

The only statement that I am making is that their is a DIFFERENCE in the caliber of students on AVERAGE between the schools. Now of course there will be students in any state school that can compete and even beat the students at the more prestigous schools, however the AVERAGE student at that school is not on par with the average in the more prestigous universities. Contrary to what you might believe, not everybody is premed and all that concerned about their GPA at some of the lesser ranked schools. Yes that might be a personal bias based on my limited experience but unless you have first hand experience to contradict this yourself, I don't see why you can't concede and insist on saying that there is no difference. In my case there was a difference, and it wasn't just a slight difference - it's very noticable. In addition, when comparing high school GPAs and SATs the more prestigous schools have a greater proportion of students that graduated at the top of their class. I believe this can be directly correlated to (1)motivation (2) determination (3) ability and (4) the competitive nature of the AVERAGE student at the more prestigous school, so even though my experiences are limited, they seem to make sense to me. If you have experience to contradict this, I'm all ears? I do not have some sort of agenda here nor am I advocating for prestigous schools - everybody has their specific reasons for choosing x vs y school. But if your claiming that the academic environment is the same then I beg to differ.

P.S. The upper level classes at GMU in chemistry are not that big, they range from 15 to 60 students max. I know my professors very well and have either been (1) directly told that I was the highest grade (2) the class grades were either posted online or in class by student number (3) in the case of one of the classes I am in right now he puts your rank on your test score - example 1/37, 2/37, 3/37 .... along with the numerical score obtained. So I know.

I do not know everybody in the class but I do know some of the people since the classes are relatively small, but I can still deduce the level of learning within the class, I was once a teacher myself, by the following things: (1) I am in a pchem course where the teacher gave a midterm that had the exact questions assigned for homework with different numbers - the average was in the 50's??? He has not tested us on or will test us on anything that has to do with the math that goes into pchem - we can memorize the final formula - oh wait we don't even have to memorize it because we are allowed a cheat sheet. To top that off, since he doesn't curve and the average was so low on the midterm the final exam is going to consist of questions that are the VERBATIM from the homework problems assigned in which we have solutions manuals. People are memorizing the homework problems (approx 30 problems). Since he doesn't want to fail the average he is considering opening up the ranges depending on how the verbatim final turns out. Do you think that the average student in this situation is going to go above and beyond to learn pchem for the sake of pchem here? Maybe, but it sure fosters an environment where you don't have to really learn it to get an A. (2) I have taken several courses in which I thought the exams were extremely easy and have scored in the 95-100 range prior to a curve, the averages were consistently in the 50's to low 60's. After the curve people with scores in the upper 70's to 80's recieved grades of A and A-? When I judge the difficulty level of the exam I feel that, if they weren't able to get those questions right, well than they really don't understand the material to the appropriate level to be getting an A. At the end of the day they only recieved an A because of the low average and not because they achieved in learning the course.

Now don't get me wrong there are people that do consistently study and work their ass off - I have mad respect for them and they do learn the material just as well at GMU as one would at let's say UVA, but that just isn't the case with the average student. So although you still have to study hard it does create an environment where it is much easier to recieve an A, whether that A was deserved or not. In my situation it's kind of made me lazy, I study till I feel confident with the information and then move on to another class or hang out with my gf. I rarely find myself losing sleep and studying all night till the moment of the exam, at UVA I was studying for hours on end till the very minute of the exam - I was never at the point where I felt confident enough for any exam, regardless of how well I knew the material - for the mere fact that the average student knew the material as well.

 

[schismal]

Wall of Text +2

You are putting words in my mouth, now. I've said nothing about the average GPA/SAT for Duke and OSU's Honors College.

And no matter how many times you repeat it, your story is inherently biased; it's patterned by your own perceptions, by your over- and under-estimations of yourself and those around you. As is mine. As is everybody's in this thread. But if your attitude is the norm at places like Duke, I feel that the OP must indeed consider fitment when choosing schools, even moreso than the finances. I would hate if all my peers were gunners, too clouded by a zero-sum outlook on life to help one another study, always afraid of upsetting their place in the class rank. That's why most med schools, even the top-tier ones, are transitioning to a P/F system. I'm not sure how you'll derive motivation if you matriculate into one of these institutions and can no longer shoot for the gold star of being recognized as #1.

 

[nabeel76]

You are putting words in my mouth, now. I've said nothing about the average GPA/SAT for Duke and OSU's Honors College.

And no matter how many times you repeat it, your story is inherently biased; it's patterned by your own perceptions, by your over- and under-estimations of yourself and those around you. As is mine. As is everybody's in this thread. But if your attitude is the norm at places like Duke, I feel that the OP must indeed consider fitment when choosing schools, even moreso than the finances. I would hate if all my peers were gunners, too clouded by a zero-sum outlook on life to help one another study, always afraid of upsetting their place in the class rank. That's why most med schools, even the top-tier ones, are transitioning to a P/F system. I'm not sure how you'll derive motivation if you matriculate into one of these institutions and can no longer shoot for the gold star of being recognized as #1.

Trust me I'm no gunner, I like every other premed in the nation, just want to acheive an A average so that I can possibly get into medical school. It just seems to be much easier at GMU than it was at UVA, and this isn't a personal bias! My GPA is a quantitative indicator of that, the hours I spend studying are also indicators of that. The difficulty levels of tests are also indicators, should I go on? I never said that I was shooting for number 1??? I enjoy my personal life WAY too much for that. And don't assume that because the average student is more competitive at some schools that they are not willing to help you out or will shoot you down to insure their A - this is not the case. I never experienced that attitude from anybody I encountered at either school and have always been willing to help anybody that approaches me whenever I was in a position to do so, so unless you've personally attended a school that was that way, don't jump to conclusions. I think you should start to speak from personal experience rather than what you might hear here on sdn. I have yet to hear of any possible comparison between any differences between any differently ranked schools that might support your personal opinion, like I said, it is a PERSONAL opinion that I share with many that have attending two differently ranked schools. I have formed mine from my PERSONAL experiences, yet you have formed such a strong opinion and bais based on what? Other peoples personal experiences I am assuming, cause you have yet to back any of your biases up with your own personal experiences? I think it will be YOU thats in for a surprise come medical school, not me, I already have an idea of how competititve it can get.

 

[diosa428]

I chose a private, well respected liberal arts college over 2 other schools that offered me a full scholarship (my state school and a not-in-the-same-league private school) and never regretted that decision. I also felt that my school was the best fit... but at the end of the day, when I sent in my medical school apps, I was happy with my application, and I really don't doubt that the name of my school carried some weight. Also, when I was rejected from schools, I knew it was because my application wasn't strong enough, and not because the name on my degree wasn't good enough (a phenomenon that I had to deal with my college apps, coming from a crappy high school). But really the decision is yours - which would you regret more? The pile of debt you would accumulate, or always wondering if you would have more luck with applications from a different school? I think that the answer to that varies from person to person so you really need to sit down and evaluate the question yourself.

 

[Dookter]

Duke Med school is relatively cheap because of the 3rd year research. Avg debt is comparable to UNC ~80,000+

This statement is absolutely false. Duke is expensive unless you get somebody else to pay for it in some capacity. The total budget for the 2nd year students this year is like $70K. You wanna know why the average debt is so cheap? Wealthy parents. I get a TON of financial aid, and I'm still going to owe waaaaaay more than the average debt.

And don't tell me that getting like $30K knocked off of a $250K price tag because of a 3rd year scholarship makes Duke cheap...ha.

 

[Dookter]

I'll weigh in on this since it interests me personally as a Duke med student. There are a couple of my classmates who have posted here, so that makes it even more interesting.

I'd say go to Ohio State and never look back. You have to remember things that most people forget:
1. We're talking about YOU as a student, not the AVERAGE of all students at a school. Your application is made by your grades and your experiences, not by averaging those of the entire student body. Some might argue that you'll have a leg up by school name alone. I'll just say that I've never known a single person from my undergrad state school who was qualified to get into medical school who didn't. And the people who were VERY qualified got into the very top medical schools. This is based on merit first and foremost. School name will never be worth >$100K when it comes to medical school admissions.
2. You'll have >$100K that you did not spend. You said that your family will then use that money for medical school. I assume they'll also use a little of it for experiences while in undergrad [study abroad, etc]. Do not underestimate the power of having extra money to do extra stuff with. At Duke you might have more opportunities for cool experiences, but literally none of them can't be bought quite easily if they aren't available at your state school. Oh, and guess what--they almost certainly will be available at your state school.


Just remember that there is a lot of fear in the unknown, and that includes going to state schools/public schools/etc. People just don't know if they will be screwed by a public school education, if they will experience amazing opportunities at a very expensive private school, etc. I think you have to trust in yourself. If you have the ability to get into Duke and then survive the premed courses and get into medical school, you certainly have the ability to do the same at Ohio State or any other school. It means that you are on top of it, so congrats. Just realize that getting into medical school will be your own success, not your school's success. Hours and hours of hard work earned you a spot. The name on your diploma didn't. And if you don't get in, it's your failure. Don't blame Ohio State since tons of people from Ohio State go to medical school.


Also keep in mind that nobody here knows the right answer. I have my own bias on this issue, but I'm also looking at it as a medical student. I'm surrounded by intelligent, hard working people who would have kicked butt in any situation. Perhaps more of them are from top schools than from state schools. My own take on that is that medical students tend to be smarter than the average bear and also tend to come from wealthier backgrounds that can afford expensive schools. It seems to me that the admissions process is just a big filter letting only the best and brightest through. If you're one of the best and brightest, you'll make it through the filter. I don't think you need to cave to some insecurity telling you that you must pay a small fortune so that just *maybe* if you're really not one of the best you'll will require school reputation and neatly packaged [and generic since everyone else has the same crap on their applications from big name schools....gag me] extracurriculars. In the end, if you're not of one the best this system will keep you out regardless of the name on your diploma.

EDIT: I also forgot one thing: Someone earlier mentioned how at Duke there will be tons of students who had full ride offers at state schools, etc., and chose Duke, etc etc etc. Keep in mind that at Ohio State all of the full ride students had tons of offers at schools like Duke. If you get in the honors program or around the absolute best and brightest in some capacity, you're around essentially the same caliber students. The difference is usually in the size of the family wallet. The kids who take the full rides often do it for the money. The kids who turn them down often have someone else paying for school and don't care about the money.

 

[schismal]

<snip>

I awake from my nap realizing that our bickering is silly, and therefore over.

Good post, Dookter. I agree with you.

 

[dezokitty]

I think it's been fairly well established that either school can provide an excellent student the resources to continue to achieve and eventually make it into medical school. In the end, it's going to be a personal choice. Figure out your priorities and go with it. In the end, no matter where you went for undergrad, once you're in medical school, you won't be looking back. (Personally, I would choose the full ride )

 

[nevercold]

Make sure you get to physically visit both schools! Your impressions from that visit should help your decision!

 

[link2swim06]

Capitalism sucks. I am sick of Golden Parachutes. The free market is not free. But at least the Duke football team produces competent ortho surgeons. The Ohio State football team just produces road kill for the NFL and entertainment for the donors with Golden Parachutes.

Duke has a football team?