On “Professionalism”

[KnuxNole]

Ok, that leaves the minority of cases which are more vague, that have occurred to some of my classmates recently which seem absolutely ridiculous. Unfortunately I can’t say details since it would be unfair to them and they are not my stories to tell.

But I’ll give a somewhat parallel example. Two male students go to an olive garden and have discussion that is sexually charged and they exchange some controversial opinions. A female peer happens to be at the same olive garden sitting behind them and eavesdrops on the conversation. She files a professionalism report, and that gets added to their file. It’s too much imo.

Yeah, I see a huge problem in that scenario

Going to Olive Garden.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Tenk]

Yeah, I see a huge problem in that scenario

Going to Olive Garden.

Hey man, don’t tell Post Malone that.

 

[operaman]

Frankly, I think we could really do away with all the rules and regulations in every student handbook and just have a couple of rules that say be kind and be professional at all times.

Why does it make us so uncomfortable to have it so vague? Does listing out every infraction somehow make us more comfortable. I know there’s a fear of it being used improperly, but that rarely happens. Everyone I’ve known who ran into professionalism trouble earned those reprimands fairly. Even when it seemed like an open and shut case of administration overreach, once I heard the rest of the story I ended up siding with the schools.

I’ll tell you when I lost my sympathy for unprofessional behavior: when I became a patient. When my family members starting needing more medical care. Now I care a whole lot about professionalism and have no sympathy for anyone who thinks such provisions are unfair. If you want to take care of my mother, you better darn well be a consummate professional at all times. Period.

 

[getdown]

Ok, that leaves the minority of cases which are more vague, that have occurred to some of my classmates recently which seem absolutely ridiculous. Unfortunately I can’t say details since it would be unfair to them and they are not my stories to tell.

But I’ll give a somewhat parallel example. Two male students go to an olive garden and have discussion that is sexually charged and they exchange some controversial opinions. A female peer happens to be at the same olive garden sitting behind them and eavesdrops on the conversation. She files a professionalism report, and that gets added to their file. It’s too much imo.

Like the poster above me mentioned. While it is unfair and seems petty that anyone get in trouble for speaking their mind in public, it has and will continue to happen in the current social environment of hypersensitive individuals we live in. You just have to be mindful to not say anything too controversial in public. Keep it to private conversation in closed rooms. It is what it is.

 

[Goro]

Why does it make us so uncomfortable to have it so vague? Does listing out every infraction somehow make us more comfortable. I know there’s a fear of it being used improperly, but that rarely happens. Everyone I’ve known who ran into professionalism trouble earned those reprimands fairly. Even when it seemed like an open and shut case of administration overreach, once I heard the rest of the story I ended up siding with the schools.

The bolded is the classic tip of the iceberg syndrome in action. To people looking in from the outside, professionalism sanctions seem unfair.

But for those of us on the inside looking out, you see a lot more under the surface, and for people to get sanctioned, this is probably the result of bad behavior continuing despite multiple warnings.

To this add that once someone gets on our radar for behavior, they're more likely to be under the microscope. Surprising, the worst students never get this.

 

[nimbus]

If you’ve seen the movie Shawshank Redemption, you’ll recall a scene where Red discusses the word “rehabilitated” and how it’s made to keep the powerful people in power.

1967 Parole Hearings Man: Ellis Boyd Redding, your files say you've served 40 years of a life sentence. Do you feel you've been rehabilitated?
Red: Rehabilitated? Well, now let me see. You know, I don't have any idea what that means.
1967 Parole Hearings Man: Well, it means that you're ready to rejoin society...
Red: I know what you think it means, sonny. To me it's just a made up word. A politician's word, so young fellas like yourself can wear a suit and a tie, and have a job. What do you really want to know? Am I sorry for what I did?
1967 Parole Hearings Man: Well, are you?
Red: There's not a day goes by I don't feel regret. Not because I'm in here, or because you think I should. I look back on the way I was then: a young, stupid kid who committed that terrible crime. I want to talk to him. I want to try and talk some sense to him, tell him the way things are. But I can't. That kid's long gone and this old man is all that's left. I got to live with that. Rehabilitated? It's just a bull**** word. So you go on and stamp your form, sonny, and stop wasting my time. Because to tell you the truth, I don't give a ****.

To me, this is the same as professionalism. It’s a politician’s word, without any meaning. It’s meant as the “etc.” at the end of the law book when administrators cannot think of new laws to add but want to leave actions open for discussion. They throw words around like professionalism to target any action or behavior they dislike.

Are there cases of unprofessional behavior? Absolutely. But they should be defined by things other than professionalism. Not left as a vague word open for anyones interpretation. It’s a medical schools instrument of intimidation and power.

Any case of unprofessional behavior can be defined by other words. “Disrespect to authority” “racism” “drug use” “truancy”. Cases that cannot be defined by these real words should not be considered.

Guess we can add, “don’t be nasty at Olive Garden”.

Seriously though, I think of professionalism more as showing up on time, getting your work done, and treating everybody with respect.

 

[VincentAdultman]

Ignoring human decency = losing the right to have lewd conversations at Olive Garden?

Sorry OP the devil is in the details but I can see a situation where I as an attending gets reprimanded for doin that.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Ignoring human decency = losing the right to have lewd conversations at Olive Garden?

Sorry OP the devil is in the details but I can see a situation where I as an attending gets reprimanded for doin that.

Seems appropriate:

 

[MSTPlease]

Truly disgusted by this sentiment from someone who is in the field of medicine, no less, to make such value judgments of a person. I don’t even know how you wrote that sentence without saying the word “stereotype.” Specificity and sensitivity LOL get out of here.

Oh wait, does your stereotyping behavior count as “unprofessional”?

Again I say, thank god our legal systems don’t work this way. Oh wait, they do, and black people disproportionately suffer.

Legit have my brain in a pretzel. I'm making stereotypical value judgments because after interacting with people for several years I can tell who behaves like an insensitive dingus (when our job is to take care of people in sensitive situations) and/or cannot be counted upon to carry out required/necessary tasks (in a job where failure to carry out certain tasks can be the difference between life and death) and that's "disgusting" but you need to be able to express offensive things in public (which may or may not be a reflection of how you feel about the people you will be treating and impact how you will treat them) without consequences in order to feel like you have basic human decency?

 

[siliso]

Spill it OP what did you do? Deets and then I’ll rule on whether you’ve been treated unfairly. Note that people in many other fields have also suffered consequences for so much as a vulgar tweet.

 

[Osteosaur]

Ignoring human decency = losing the right to have lewd conversations at Olive Garden?

FIGHT SYSTEMIC INJUSTICE!!!

But really, there comes a point where you need to realize that doing the stuff you do as a 17 year old is going to annoy people and it will have some personal and professional consequences. You have the freedom to be obnoxious, but everyone else has the freedom not to want to be around you or do business with you.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The bolded is the classic tip of the iceberg syndrome in action. To people looking in from the outside, professionalism sanctions seem unfair.

But for those of us on the inside looking out, you see a lot more under the surface, and for people to get sanctioned, this is probably the result of bad behavior continuing despite multiple warnings.

To this add that once someone gets on our radar for behavior, they're more likely to be under the microscope. Surprising, the worst students never get this.

I think this is key.

As a second year, I got into a small bit of trouble (I made a snotty comment and the professor whose class it was about overheard me).

Assistant dean called me to her office, said that she knew this was out of character for me but that I did need to watch what I said when I could be overheard.

Walked the straight and narrow after that, neither that nor any professional issues ever came up again.

 

[Neopolymath]

I find these threads amusing. I came from business and went to a party school for undergrad. That said, the business school was all suits/networking/professionalism etc. The same students partying got up and put their big girl pants on and went to class/work. They continued to drink and have a good time after class/work. It was rare to hear about professionalism issues at school or from alumni in the workforce. Was this because business people aren't uptight p**cks and understand getting drunk at the golf course is fun and sometimes appropriate or maybe they just didn't snitch on each other or post it all over the internet to show off? Maybe they just understood what was appropriate and what not to broadcast to the world? I couldn't say if that is true, but I do think the stories you hear about medical students sound like things a 17 year old would do. I never heard about attendance issues/lateness, dressing like ****, making lewd comments in mixed company, broadcasting their binge drinking with business people like you do with med students.

Nimbus said it best. Show up on time, do you job, and do what you want in your private life (and keep it private.) It's not hard. Schools are always going to use professionalism as a weapon but it should absolutely not affect you if you do the above. They could stop admitting dramatic man children into school (imagine), but that ain't gonna happen so you better just buckle down. Millions of business people have fun and don't get called into HR for talking about Karen's ass in accounting so I think some of the smartest adults in American can figure it out eventually.

 

[Cassowary]

I find these threads amusing. I came from business and went to a party school for undergrad. That said, the business school was all suits/networking/professionalism etc. The same students partying got up and put their big girl pants on and went to class/work. They continued to drink and have a good time after class/work. It was rare to hear about professionalism issues at school or from alumni in the workforce. Was this because business people aren't uptight p**cks and understand getting drunk at the golf course is fun and sometimes appropriate or maybe they just didn't snitch on each other or post it all over the internet to show off? Maybe they just understood what was appropriate and what not to broadcast to the world? I couldn't say if that is true, but I do think the stories you hear about medical students sound like things a 17 year old would do. I never heard about attendance issues/lateness, dressing like ****, making lewd comments in mixed company, broadcasting their binge drinking with business people like you do with med students.

Nimbus said it best. Show up on time, do you job, and do what you want in your private life (and keep it private.) It's not hard. Schools are always going to use professionalism as a weapon but it should absolutely not affect you if you do the above. They could stop admitting dramatic man children into school (imagine), but that ain't gonna happen so you better just buckle down. Millions of business people have fun and don't get called into HR for talking about Karen's ass in accounting so I think some of the smartest adults in American can figure it out eventually.

Agreed 100%. Med students are just some close minded, snakey, pretentious nerds that snitch and have been sheltered their whole lives.

 

[Neopolymath]

Agreed 100%. Med students are just some close minded, snakey, pretentious nerds that snitch and have been sheltered their whole lives.

I would argue that the issue is that most med students didn't have a job prior to med school and sat in basic science courses that didn't teach them how to interact with others apparently. As I said previously, med students seem to do some really stupid things that make me think a lot of them are immature overall despite spending so much time grinding (like an adult) ironically. You don't have to tell business students to wear a tie or show up on time.

 

[Chibucks15]

I would argue that the issue is that most med students didn't have a job prior to med school and sat in basic science courses that didn't teach them how to interact with others apparently. As I said previously, med students seem to do some really stupid things that make me think a lot of them are immature overall despite spending so much time grinding (like an adult) ironically. You don't have to tell business students to wear a tie or show up on time.

Exactly. People act like putting on a damn tie and being somewhere 10 minutes early is a crime against everything they stand for. When word gets out something is clinic attire some people go bananas I mean cmon

 

[Cassowary]

I would argue that the issue is that most med students didn't have a job prior to med school and sat in basic science courses that didn't teach them how to interact with others apparently. As I said previously, med students seem to do some really stupid things that make me think a lot of them are immature overall despite spending so much time grinding (like an adult) ironically. You don't have to tell business students to wear a tie or show up on time.

Ive never had a job and i have the common sense not to snitch. Med school just attracts nerds who suckle at authority like little piglets.

 

[Newyawk]

I find these threads amusing. I came from business and went to a party school for undergrad. That said, the business school was all suits/networking/professionalism etc. The same students partying got up and put their big girl pants on and went to class/work. They continued to drink and have a good time after class/work. It was rare to hear about professionalism issues at school or from alumni in the workforce. Was this because business people aren't uptight p**cks and understand getting drunk at the golf course is fun and sometimes appropriate or maybe they just didn't snitch on each other or post it all over the internet to show off? Maybe they just understood what was appropriate and what not to broadcast to the world? I couldn't say if that is true, but I do think the stories you hear about medical students sound like things a 17 year old would do. I never heard about attendance issues/lateness, dressing like ****, making lewd comments in mixed company, broadcasting their binge drinking with business people like you do with med students.

Nimbus said it best. Show up on time, do you job, and do what you want in your private life (and keep it private.) It's not hard. Schools are always going to use professionalism as a weapon but it should absolutely not affect you if you do the above. They could stop admitting dramatic man children into school (imagine), but that ain't gonna happen so you better just buckle down. Millions of business people have fun and don't get called into HR for talking about Karen's ass in accounting so I think some of the smartest adults in American can figure it out eventually.

Karens ass... lmfao

 

[KnuxNole]

I would argue that the issue is that most med students didn't have a job prior to med school and sat in basic science courses that didn't teach them how to interact with others apparently. As I said previously, med students seem to do some really stupid things that make me think a lot of them are immature overall despite spending so much time grinding (like an adult) ironically. You don't have to tell business students to wear a tie or show up on time.

That is still a challenge with residents. For some, it's like pulling teeth to come to clinic/wards/meetings on time and to at least wear some professional clothing.

 

[Goro]

Not gloating, but is anyone surprised that the OP got Bansmacked????

 

[Premed2295]

At my school and a few schools I know of friends attending it seems largely as though any time students might challenge administration or presenters on something they were wrong about no matter how respectfully the student is smacked with a “professionalism” violation
I’ve come to agree with the person who says the school owns their “bitch ass” which is rather unfortunate. Many of this choose this career to learn how to be advocates not leemings.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Not gloating, but is anyone surprised that the OP got Bansmacked????

I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a sock of a previously banned member.

 

[anon6134]

Here's a visual aid for knowing it when you see it. This girl was terminated from residency.

Did anyone else watch this on 2x speed

 

[Goro]

I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a sock of a previously banned member.

And a rather malignant one at that.

 

[smukke]

That is still a challenge with residents. For some, it's like pulling teeth to come to clinic/wards/meetings on time and to at least wear some professional clothing.

I won't lie, part of what attracted me to medicine was being able to make wear the pseudo-pajamas all day.

#banpantyhose

 

[Premed2295]

This. I know a few people who have been called to the Dean’s Office for something that a little poking around on social media revealed our Dean was actually invovled in as well.

Unfortunately at some Universities the professionalism committee is a way to train students to not make waves, rather than to train them how to be professionals in the health care setting. While not making waves is sometimes an asset, the reality is that sometimes, in healthcare, waves are needed!!!

We also have a policy seemingly for everything and yet if a student acts in a way that doesn’t directly violate one of those obscure policy that someone just “doesnt like” they get a referral. The worst part is that much of this is based off of anonymous peer reporting, so much of who gets a referral is based on who the “cool kids” in the class are, like we are a bunch of 13 year olds. Someone doesnt like someone’s political view, someone politely corrects someone during peer teaching, someone thinks a student who is their neighbors makes a little too much noise, BOOM they file a referral for some obscure rule not even the Dean follows and can sink another student’s career. We literally have a policy that you can be expelled if you dont answer email from faculty with 24 hours (to their credit hasn’t yet been inforced) and yet I’ve been waiting for a time sensitive email from faculty for over 24 hours. I’m not exaggerating when I say over 10% of the M1 class has already met with the professionalism committee this year.

So yeah, I agree with whoever just said to play the game. It’s 4 years of being a little sheep to achieve your dreams.

How dare I be entitled to basic human decency



How about: don’t do anything illegal.

I’m not talking about the selling drugs out of your car. Those aren’t unprofessional, those are illegal.



Thank god our legal system doesn’t function this way

I guarantee every single one of you has done 5 unprofessional things regularly from the time you wake up to the time you finish driving to work. Unprofessional things aren’t “shooting up a block”. Dirt can be found if you go looking for it.

The hypocrisy behind it is the worst part. Faculty are pretentious and act so high and mighty are no different than the rest of us.

 

[7331poas]

I think this is key.

As a second year, I got into a small bit of trouble (I made a snotty comment and the professor whose class it was about overheard me).

Assistant dean called me to her office, said that she knew this was out of character for me but that I did need to watch what I said when I could be overheard.

Walked the straight and narrow after that, neither that nor any professional issues ever came up again.

You dont find it unfair that you were sanctioned for an "unprofessional" comment that was made in private (i.e not on social media)?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

You dont find it unfair that you were sanctioned for an "unprofessional" comment that was made in private (i.e not on social media)?

It wasn't in private, it was in the hallway outside the classroom before lecture (and I thought before the professor got there - I was mistaken on that score).

I also wasn't sanctioned in any way. The talk with the dean was never made public, it didn't go on my record, and it didn't affect anything from that point on.

However, had I gotten in trouble again it likely would have come up as part of a pattern.

That's the key to all this. The people who get in serious trouble do one of 2 things: they either have a pattern of getting in trouble (see any thread in the residency forum about people who get fired) or do one thing that's bad enough to warrant immediate action (Uber incident with that neurology resident).

 

[Chibucks15]

Nothing ever “in private” anymore with phones and recordings of literally everything. And on top of that a high ranking person like a doctor is always somebody is going to target. Not saying that it should be like this, but it is what it is

 

[907914]

Ok, that leaves the minority of cases which are more vague, that have occurred to some of my classmates recently which seem absolutely ridiculous. Unfortunately I can’t say details since it would be unfair to them and they are not my stories to tell.

But I’ll give a somewhat parallel example. Two male students go to an olive garden and have discussion that is sexually charged and they exchange some controversial opinions. A female peer happens to be at the same olive garden sitting behind them and eavesdrops on the conversation. She files a professionalism report, and that gets added to their file. It’s too much imo.

Just don’t talk about sex at Olive Garden?

 

[RNthenDoc]

The rules for professionalism are routinely bent for individuals who bring in enough revenue for the office/hospital, and until that changes, the rest is farcical to me.

I make it my priority to treat everyone with dignity and respect, but I refuse to ever be fake for the purpose of kissing rings.

Most of the professionalism violations come from people who should have been weeded out in the interview process due to crazy narcissism/social aloofness, are entitled jerks, or a combination of both.

That’s my experience, anyway.

 

[operaman]

Nothing ever “in private” anymore with phones and recordings of literally everything. And on top of that a high ranking person like a doctor is always somebody is going to target. Not saying that it should be like this, but it is what it is

Just seconding this. The recording thing is very real. I’ve seen it sink even some attendings’ careers so be very careful what you say and who you say it to. Just assume you’re being recorded most of the time and behave accordingly.