Opinion on UPENN Dental

[GraduationComingSoon]

It's my fourth year at the University of Pennsylvania School of Dental Medicine and these are some very honest thoughts about the school.
This is mainly for the Class of 2025 when considering whether they should come to Penn or not.

If you are looking to learn a lot about medicine. Penn teaches a lot of it the first two years. A lot more didactics compared to other dental schools, but I felt that this was good in terms of becoming a well rounded health professional. However, it will be tough, and very mentally demanding. Last year a student from the Class of 2023 passed away due to suicide. Many Penn students struggle with mental health conditions. The administration/dean on the other hand is terrible. They have constantly been showing that they care more about the school image and money than the dental students.

Examples:

1. The death of the D1 student was quickly swept under the rug. School continued normally and the administration sent out a short email a daysss later saying that a student passed away and asked us to refrain from posting about the death on social media. (school image was that important to them)

2. We get five personal days each year, but they aren't personal. You have to give an explanation and proof as to why you want to take a personal day, or they won't let you use your personal day. They don't approve personal days if we don't go into detail as to why we MUST get off that day. (administration hinting that they care more about students seeing patients than getting a PERSONAL day)

4. The administration takes away our spring break and said that it would go towards a longer winter break. Then when asking about the longer winter break, we were told that it was not a "life-long promise". No excuse was given as to why they won't extend it. (administration once again seemingly caring about us seeing more patients than giving us a mental break).

5. The way that the administration communicates towards students is very unhealthy and unprofessional. When asked about the winter break extension, the administration emailed the student council to look at their schedules. The schedules showed no changes, and the winter break was not extended. (Sarcasm and CAPS LOCK are used constantly by the administration and it is very unprofessional worsening the relationship between the students and the administration).

I focused mainly on the winter break because that was the main reason for being upset at the Penn administration, but trust me, this is just the surface of how terrible the administration is. Please reach out to any of the current students (D2, D3, D4s; not D1s, they don't know anything yet) and ask about the school when considering coming here.

Honestly, if it weren't for the terrible attitude, unprofessionalism, and money-focused mindset of the administration, high likelihood of getting depression, and the $500K for four years of education, then Penn ain't that bad of a choice.
But there are plenty of cheaper schools with a more caring administration and a healthier mental climate. The only thing is Penn got that name (good for going into specialty), so weigh your options.

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[Life of Pablo]

Honest question, does any dental student like their school’s administration? I feel like this is a common theme amongst most dental schools.

 

[GoDental101]

It's my fourth year at the University of Pennsylvania School of Dental Medicine and these are some very honest thoughts about the school.
This is mainly for the Class of 2025 when considering whether they should come to Penn or not.

If you are looking to learn a lot about medicine. Penn teaches a lot of it the first two years. A lot more didactics compared to other dental schools, but I felt that this was good in terms of becoming a well rounded health professional. However, it will be tough, and very mentally demanding. Last year a student from the Class of 2023 passed away due to suicide. Many Penn students struggle with mental health conditions. The administration/dean on the other hand is terrible. They have constantly been showing that they care more about the school image and money than the dental students.

Examples:

1. The death of the D1 student was quickly swept under the rug. School continued normally and the administration sent out a short email a daysss later saying that a student passed away and asked us to refrain from posting about the death on social media. (school image was that important to them)

2. We get five personal days each year, but they aren't personal. You have to give an explanation and proof as to why you want to take a personal day, or they won't let you use your personal day. They don't approve personal days if we don't go into detail as to why we MUST get off that day. (administration hinting that they care more about students seeing patients than getting a PERSONAL day)

4. The administration takes away our spring break and said that it would go towards a longer winter break. Then when asking about the longer winter break, we were told that it was not a "life-long promise". No excuse was given as to why they won't extend it. (administration once again seemingly caring about us seeing more patients than giving us a mental break).

5. The way that the administration communicates towards students is very unhealthy and unprofessional. When asked about the winter break extension, the administration emailed the student council to look at their schedules. The schedules showed no changes, and the winter break was not extended. (Sarcasm and CAPS LOCK are used constantly by the administration and it is very unprofessional worsening the relationship between the students and the administration).

I focused mainly on the winter break because that was the main reason for being upset at the Penn administration, but trust me, this is just the surface of how terrible the administration is. Please reach out to any of the current students (D2, D3, D4s; not D1s, they don't know anything yet) and ask about the school when considering coming here.

Honestly, if it weren't for the terrible attitude, unprofessionalism, and money-focused mindset of the administration, high likelihood of getting depression, and the $500K for four years of education, then Penn ain't that bad of a choice.
But there are plenty of cheaper schools with a more caring administration and a healthier mental climate. The only thing is Penn got that name (good for going into specialty), so weigh your options.

bUT it'S iVy leAgUe!!

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Honest question, does any dental student like their school’s administration? I feel like this is a common theme amongst most dental schools.

Mine was actually pretty responsive to the student body. The general friendliness and openness of the faculty was one of the main reasons I dared to go to a state school vs. a fancy pants Ivy League school. I went where I knew I would thrive. And, I have no regrets whatsoever with my choice.

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

The only thing is Penn got that name (good for going into specialty)

This is very overrated. Trust me. You learn more or less the same thing wherever you go to school. It's what you do during that time you're in dental school that counts. The name on your diploma is not going to check a box that you failed to check to all of a sudden make you a competitive applicant. If anything, and this is dubious at best, the name on your diploma is a reflection of the kind of PRE-DENTAL student you were, not the kind of DENTAL student you are.

Big Hoss

 

[PerioDont]

This is very overrated. Trust me. You learn more or less the same thing wherever you go to school. It's what you do during that time you're in dental school that counts. The name on your diploma is not going to check a box that you failed to check to all of a sudden make you a competitive applicant. If anything, and this is dubious at best, the name on your diploma is a reflection of the kind of PRE-DENTAL student you were, not the kind of DENTAL student you are.

Big Hoss

So true. Just had a coresident from Harvard beg me to send her my notes for an exam. Even though I am a lowly state school grad 😅

we have a few other Ivy League kids in my state school residency program and I see zero difference in their intellect or talent levels. Main difference is how much they paid for their dental school.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Main difference is how much they paid for their dental school.

The thing that actually matters. Any idea how much educational debt they are going to have when they finish residency?

Big Hoss

 

[PerioDont]

The thing that actually matters. Any idea how much educational debt they are going to have when they finish residency?

Big Hoss

The highest I met are looking at the tune of 950k (undergrad, masters degree, dental, and residency masters).

Average probably 6-700 for tuition paying residents that went to higher cost dental schools. Also I guess doing SMP/post bacc has become fairly common, so add 50-100k extra there.

 

[GoDental101]

Crazy thing is alot of these people incurring debt in the 500k+ plus range are the same ones who never worked during school, take out max loans, drive nice cars, and use extra loans for fancy vacations during breaks. Then they have the audacity to expect the government to forgive their "educational" loans.

 

[PerioDont]

Crazy thing is alot of these people incurring debt in the 500k+ plus range are the same ones who never worked during school, take out max loans, drive nice cars, and use extra loans for fancy vacations during breaks. Then they have the audacity to expect the government to forgive their "educational" loans.

The guy with 950 just bought a brand new SUV…🤭

 

[LFA20]

Honest question, does any dental student like their school’s administration? I feel like this is a common theme amongst most dental schools.

I liked mine

 

[toothstar]

It's my fourth year at the University of Pennsylvania School of Dental Medicine and these are some very honest thoughts about the school.
This is mainly for the Class of 2025 when considering whether they should come to Penn or not.

If you are looking to learn a lot about medicine. Penn teaches a lot of it the first two years. A lot more didactics compared to other dental schools, but I felt that this was good in terms of becoming a well rounded health professional. However, it will be tough, and very mentally demanding. Last year a student from the Class of 2023 passed away due to suicide. Many Penn students struggle with mental health conditions. The administration/dean on the other hand is terrible. They have constantly been showing that they care more about the school image and money than the dental students.

Examples:

1. The death of the D1 student was quickly swept under the rug. School continued normally and the administration sent out a short email a daysss later saying that a student passed away and asked us to refrain from posting about the death on social media. (school image was that important to them)

2. We get five personal days each year, but they aren't personal. You have to give an explanation and proof as to why you want to take a personal day, or they won't let you use your personal day. They don't approve personal days if we don't go into detail as to why we MUST get off that day. (administration hinting that they care more about students seeing patients than getting a PERSONAL day)

4. The administration takes away our spring break and said that it would go towards a longer winter break. Then when asking about the longer winter break, we were told that it was not a "life-long promise". No excuse was given as to why they won't extend it. (administration once again seemingly caring about us seeing more patients than giving us a mental break).

5. The way that the administration communicates towards students is very unhealthy and unprofessional. When asked about the winter break extension, the administration emailed the student council to look at their schedules. The schedules showed no changes, and the winter break was not extended. (Sarcasm and CAPS LOCK are used constantly by the administration and it is very unprofessional worsening the relationship between the students and the administration).

I focused mainly on the winter break because that was the main reason for being upset at the Penn administration, but trust me, this is just the surface of how terrible the administration is. Please reach out to any of the current students (D2, D3, D4s; not D1s, they don't know anything yet) and ask about the school when considering coming here.

Honestly, if it weren't for the terrible attitude, unprofessionalism, and money-focused mindset of the administration, high likelihood of getting depression, and the $500K for four years of education, then Penn ain't that bad of a choice.
But there are plenty of cheaper schools with a more caring administration and a healthier mental climate. The only thing is Penn got that name (good for going into specialty), so weigh your options.

That is crazy you mention this because I know many of the NYU admin/senior faculty went to U penn after NYU decided to make major admin changes, imo for simply more profit and power over the current executive admins. Meaning, if **** hits the fan, they will simply fire the one dean responsible for most of the terrible changes.

A girl died in 2018, also a d1, and it was brushed under the rug. We never had a summer vacation, and our winter break was meant to study for the boards in our fourth year. W did have a spring break, but I forget if we had exams or not... I know I stayed over the break to work on clinic....


sorry to hear about upenn, my guy. Best of luck

 

[deleted967057]

That is crazy you mention this because I know many of the NYU admin/senior faculty went to U penn after NYU decided to make major admin changes, imo for simply more profit and power over the current executive admins. Meaning, if **** hits the fan, they will simply fire the one dean responsible for most of the terrible changes.

A girl died in 2018, also a d1, and it was brushed under the rug. We never had a summer vacation, and our winter break was meant to study for the boards in our fourth year. W did have a spring break, but I forget if we had exams or not... I know I stayed over the break to work on clinic....


sorry to hear about upenn, my guy. Best of luck

So nyu doens't have a summer vacation?

 

[toothstar]

So nyu doens't have a summer vacation?

so when went, I had to remediate quite a bit... it was horrible time. There wre many issues for my struggling from broken legs and knees and no medical leave granted to my own attitude problems in dealing with all the drama/therapy/appointments etc.... but we had one in June before D2, returning July I believe (or late june). then, we had 6 weeks until the august recess which is the last 2 weeks in August. So we do have those breaks, I stand corrected. But, teh reason I didn't include those breaks is because in comparison to other schools like Columbia (which gets a couple months I think), it is nothing compared to the work/nonsense we put up with... it's a grind... nyu doesn't stop even for snow. Though, we had one snow day in the years I went.

The august recess is used to study for the rising d3 students for boards (but the new board format may change these ways)....

But going from 2nd to third year, we have no time off in june or july... you only get the august fortnight which is reserved for boards studying and taking.also from d3 to d4 you have no days off in the summer until you get to the 2 weeks in august, but you will then be preparign for CDCA or writing apps and essays for GPR

 

[RadicalTopspin]

It's my fourth year at the University of Pennsylvania School of Dental Medicine and these are some very honest thoughts about the school.
This is mainly for the Class of 2025 when considering whether they should come to Penn or not.

If you are looking to learn a lot about medicine. Penn teaches a lot of it the first two years. A lot more didactics compared to other dental schools, but I felt that this was good in terms of becoming a well rounded health professional. However, it will be tough, and very mentally demanding. Last year a student from the Class of 2023 passed away due to suicide. Many Penn students struggle with mental health conditions. The administration/dean on the other hand is terrible. They have constantly been showing that they care more about the school image and money than the dental students.

Examples:

1. The death of the D1 student was quickly swept under the rug. School continued normally and the administration sent out a short email a daysss later saying that a student passed away and asked us to refrain from posting about the death on social media. (school image was that important to them)

2. We get five personal days each year, but they aren't personal. You have to give an explanation and proof as to why you want to take a personal day, or they won't let you use your personal day. They don't approve personal days if we don't go into detail as to why we MUST get off that day. (administration hinting that they care more about students seeing patients than getting a PERSONAL day)

4. The administration takes away our spring break and said that it would go towards a longer winter break. Then when asking about the longer winter break, we were told that it was not a "life-long promise". No excuse was given as to why they won't extend it. (administration once again seemingly caring about us seeing more patients than giving us a mental break).

5. The way that the administration communicates towards students is very unhealthy and unprofessional. When asked about the winter break extension, the administration emailed the student council to look at their schedules. The schedules showed no changes, and the winter break was not extended. (Sarcasm and CAPS LOCK are used constantly by the administration and it is very unprofessional worsening the relationship between the students and the administration).

I focused mainly on the winter break because that was the main reason for being upset at the Penn administration, but trust me, this is just the surface of how terrible the administration is. Please reach out to any of the current students (D2, D3, D4s; not D1s, they don't know anything yet) and ask about the school when considering coming here.

Honestly, if it weren't for the terrible attitude, unprofessionalism, and money-focused mindset of the administration, high likelihood of getting depression, and the $500K for four years of education, then Penn ain't that bad of a choice.
But there are plenty of cheaper schools with a more caring administration and a healthier mental climate. The only thing is Penn got that name (good for going into specialty), so weigh your options.

I've been out for many years.
We all hated our experience at Penn and wished we picked somewhere else.

However, after talking to all our graduating classmates 3-5 years down the line, we all came to a consensus: wtf did our colleagues learn in dental school?

Those who didn't do residency but went to Kois ($$$) and Spear ($$) quickly realize that you learned a lot of these concepts at Penn, whereas those who came from other schools think the CE material was something new and amazing. Mainly bc anything related to Perio-Pros, Perio-ortho, or endo Penn was big on. John Kois, The Salama brothers, Vanaradall, Stephen Chu, Rebecca Bockow, Marianna Evans, Martin Trope, etc. all came from Penn.

Those who did specialize and went through residency (at various programs, even Harvard) had a common realization: their co-residents who did dental school elsewhere didn't learn the basics. Or at least you thought these were basic concepts. How the f*ck did they graduate from dental school? Every one of us demolished our specialty board exams.

I had a conversation with a star orthodontist in her late 40s/early 50s at corporate. She said Penn is amazing at both academics and clinicals. This meant a lot coming from someone who's experienced within the dental community, especially since it's been drilled into our minds that, in the end, it doesn't matter which program we graduate from.

Does it matter? I don't know, you still get the same degree. Will you be confident in the care that you give to your patients? Perhaps, perhaps not. Maybe a lot of it has to do with innate talent as well. It's really all up to the individual. Penn can't turn a ****ty dentist into a brilliant one.

There were several from Penn Dental who didn't do well in GRD (pre-clinical lab work, back when the class was graded), so they quit and got their MDs instead. They're doing pretty well now. One did an MD-PhD at a top 5 US school. Our classmates are smart.

Medical education in med school and residency are both standardized nationally. They take a nationally standardized exam after every course, and after every year in residency. This is not the case in dental school and dental residency, which is probably why I've met so many new grads the past 5 years who don't know wtf they're doing.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I've been out for many years.

And herein lies the problem. What was your student loan balance when you graduated? UPenn students today are graduating with $600,000 in student loans. You mention some "star" orthodontist who graduated forever ago, well an "up-and-coming star" orthodontist who went to UPenn for dental school and residency would owe over $1,000,000 in loans. These absolutely ridiculous tuition levels are why schools like UPenn catch crap on SDN.

You think very highly of the education you got at UPenn, and that's great. It is a good school. But I really think you're off the mark to think it's inherently superior to other "common folk" schools. While I was in the military, I worked daily with graduates from schools all over the country - UCLA, Indiana, Columbia, UPenn, UCSF, Ohio State, UNLV, Pacific, etc. I can assure you that the distinguishing factor was how hard they worked in school. For those who took school seriously, there was negligible difference in their knowledge/skills.

Big Hoss

 

[2TH MVR]

And herein lies the problem. What was your student loan balance when you graduated? UPenn students today are graduating with $600,000 in student loans. You mention some "star" orthodontist who graduated forever ago, well an "up-and-coming star" orthodontist who went to UPenn for dental school and residency would owe over $1,000,000 in loans. These absolutely ridiculous tuition levels are why schools like UPenn catch crap on SDN.

You think very highly of the education you got at UPenn, and that's great. It is a good school. But I really think you're off the mark to think it's inherently superior to other "common folk" schools. While I was in the military, I worked daily with graduates from schools all over the country - UCLA, Indiana, Columbia, UPenn, UCSF, Ohio State, UNLV, Pacific, etc. I can assure you that the distinguishing factor was how hard they worked in school. For those who took school seriously, there was negligible difference in their knowledge/skills.

Big Hoss

Hey. Did you ever get your watch?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Hey. Did you ever get your watch?

No, and it really infuriates me!

Big Hoss