Optometric Physicians

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vanelo said:
I feel pity for your future clients (since only MD's have patients). Your inflated ego will one day cause you to burst the bubble you live in.


Either have a constructive argument or end these ridiculous comments (since only MD's have patients).--Vanelo.....Dentists, Podiatrists, Optometrists, and Osteopaths all have patients. The only bubble that needs to burst is the one you live in, Mam. That was quite possibly the most ridiculous and demeaning comment I have ever heard and I have trouble believing it came out of a person who claims they are going to be a doctor. I will repeat it again either have something constructive to say or go away.

PS....I am just discussing my experience--I am not yet an Optometric Physician--when I am I will decide what procedures (available to me) I will use.....

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vanelo said:
Well, I know you would only learn the ocular procedure and none of the science and medicine behind since you didn't go to med school.

It is unbelievable that the only professionals that don't recognize the hard work (hardest of all) that med students go through are optoms.

I have many friends in other fields (law, dental, etc) and they all agree in that a medical career is the most sacrificed of all.

And then you try to believe that you would actually learn the science and "medicine" behind the procedure or the relevance or efficacy of the procedure in only optom school.

Believe whatever you want, but do not underestimate another person's hard work just because you want to justify an "unjustifiable" point (again:the science and "medicine" behind the procedure or the relevance or efficacy of the procedure cannot be learned by simply learning about the eye. The human body is a system much more complex than what you OD's try to trick others into believing)


P.S. JR is a GOOD MODERATOR :)


Your comments are meaningless because one thing I have learned doing speech and debate in college, political campaigning, and just having an entire family of MD's, is that if the person you are arguing with (Vanelo) has only brash and negative comments about your viewpoint (optometry) or your yourself (optometrists) with nothing positive to say (I can mention 100 positive things about opthalmology)---their (vanelo's) argument is worthless. YOU HAVE TO GIVE POSITIVES AND NEGATIVES ON BOTH SIDES! You are comments are emotionally imature and grounded in nothing but INSECURITY. What is wrong with you Vanelo, mam? :confused:
 
JR said:
.

Again, PROFOUND lack of basic understanding of the complexity of these procedures. They may look automated and "easy" to an untrained eye. Even though the complication rate is small, if something does go wrong it is devastating. Have you ever seen a case of severe endophthalmitis or a corneal perf post LASIK?


I am only reporting what I heard with my own ears and saw with my own eyes.......I am not an optometric physician yet.
 
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bolus jones said:
OK...I understand futureOD's comments are sometimes not grounded with any evidence, and that he appears to like to stir up trouble, but there is no need to belittle the rest of us with comments like "only MD's have patients"). I guess I just don't understand how such comments are in any way contributing to the educational purpose of these forums. Furthermore, I can't believe that you will get many referrals from OD's if this is the way that you treat them.


I could furnish plenty of "evidence" but this is an anonymous forum and I will protect my identity and privacy......I can assure you that 99% of what I say I have researched it and currently I am shadowing a couple optos and an opthalmologist----I am advocate for the profession of optometry and I will help it any way I can because I am committed to it.
 
Dear Dr. Hom,

Very insightful comments, as always. I personally have several friends in optometry school, I have worked with an optometrist in the past and I do believe that optometry has a valuable role in society. However, as I have mentioned many times before, I am against optometric scope expansion and allowing optometrists surgical privileges under any circumstances.


However, your response presumes that optometrists would only learn the procedure and none of the science and "medicine" behind the procedure or the relevance or efficacy of the procedure. I would doubt that such a presumption is accurate and your generalization may be indicative more of a generalized bias rather than an accurate rendition of the position.

I am not presuming anything. If a pre-optometry student feels that he/she will be interested in performing intraocular surgical procedures, he/she should go to medical school.

In addition, the inflammatory and outright distortions perpetuated by all organizations will only cloud the merits of the case. I believe that both sides are guilty to some extent although my view of the ophthalmology attacks seem more vitriolic than optometry responses.

I agree with you here. However, being on the ophthalmology side, optometry responses and attacks don't seem very innocent to me either. This is especially true in light of recent events in OK and NM. I am sure you have read previous posts by Andrew regarding specific procedures optometrists were allowed to perform under the new law. LASEK? Retinal surgery? I am sure you'll agree that this is ridiculous.

I had hoped that your ascendency to the moderatorship of the ophthalmology forum might mean that you have a fairly "even-handed" approach to professional relations, but I may be wrong on that account. I look forward to your future approach on this subject in "bettering" rather "worsening" relations between the two professions.

Don't be disappointed so soon. It has only been a couple of days. :)
 
Richard_Hom said:
2. However, your response presumes that optometrists would only learn the procedure and none of the science and "medicine" behind the procedure or the relevance or efficacy of the procedure. I would doubt that such a presumption is accurate and your generalization may be indicative more of a generalized bias rather than an accurate rendition of the position.

Richard

Somewhere there exists a description of what an OK optometrist must do beyond their basic training to get certified for ALT. Could someone dig this up and post it so we can have an intelligent discussion on whether this represents a thorough understanding of that procedure?
 
futuredoctorOD said:
I am not going to say who I talked to but many of the schools I called already have many different types of lasers and students are using these to "practice" to "better understand" opthalmic surgery. Obviously they are using models and not human eyes but you "get my drift." Some of the faculty I talked to felt that optometry has been "the" leading profession in refractive management and that refractive surgery is just another technological necessity. "What about a world in 15-20 yrs when refractive surgeries are much more routine and safer--we have a right with proper training (including surgery training in the OD program) to do these procedures---the battle ahead will be imense but it has to be fought. Optometry will have to figure out an effective way to win this battle. Refractive surgery is an extension of refractive management."-----this is what one OD at one of the schools I talked to said and this opinion is not an isolated one. They also mentioned how "automated" these surgeries are now so they are relatively easy. Lasers have been added to different schools curriculum.

Thanks for the heads up.
 
I would take that information with a grain of salt.
 
mdkurt said:
Somewhere there exists a description of what an OK optometrist must do beyond their basic training to get certified for ALT. Could someone dig this up and post it so we can have an intelligent discussion on whether this represents a thorough understanding of that procedure?

Did you mean an understanding of the method and technique? Or did you want to discuss all the other aspects of properly applied ALT? The former I'll pass on, but the latter we can chat on right now, if you like.
 
JR said:
Dear Dr. Hom,
"...I agree with you here. However, being on the ophthalmology side, optometry responses and attacks don't seem very innocent to me either. This is especially true in light of recent events in OK and NM. I am sure you have read previous posts by Andrew regarding specific procedures optometrists were allowed to perform under the new law. LASEK? Retinal surgery? I am sure you'll agree that this is ridiculous.



Don't be disappointed so soon. It has only been a couple of days. :)

Dr. "JR".

BTW, I hate "anonymous" user names. I always feel that it is artificial. Oh well.

I believe that the scope of practice campaign by optometrists may be misguided. However, it is in response to organized ophthalmology efforts to "roll back" the present scope of practice in one more states. If ophthalmology truly believes in a symbiotic relationship, I can see them "holding the line" at surgery. But going after present state laws to roll back scope??? If that is the case, then I believe there doesn't seem to beany downside to an offensive posture by optometry to expand or protect its present turf.

This is just politics at t his time, unfortunately,
Richard
 
Dear Dr. Hom,

JR is not completely anonymous, it's my initials. I've had this SDN name since 2001 and I like it. If you want info about me, I'll send you a PM.

I don't believe that the newest developments in OK and NM fall under "present scope" of optometry. To me, it is more of a loophole in the system that needs to be fixed.

BTW, this is the first time I've seen a reference to "protecting optometry's turf" from you. Interesting.

Regards,

JR
 
PBEA said:
Did you mean an understanding of the method and technique? Or did you want to discuss all the other aspects of properly applied ALT? The former I'll pass on, but the latter we can chat on right now, if you like.

There have been a couple assertions that optometrists aren't really properly trained/don't have the background knowledge necessary to do ALT in this thread. I just think we should all understand what exactly is required of an OK optometrist before he/she can laser a patient.
 
mdkurt said:
There have been a couple assertions that optometrists aren't really properly trained/don't have the background knowledge necessary to do ALT in this thread. I just think we should all understand what exactly is required of an OK optometrist before he/she can laser a patient.

I, as an optometrist, did not perform ALT during any part of my training. I did learn quite a bit about it (and I would enjoy a discussion about this), but never once performed the procedure. I am not currently qualified to perform ALT. Did you perform ALT during your training?
 
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PBEA said:
I, as an optometrist, did not perform ALT during any part of my training. I did learn quite a bit about it (and I would enjoy a discussion about this), but never once performed the procedure. I am not currently qualified to perform ALT. Did you perform ALT during your training?

I'm aware that ALT is not being taught clinically at any optometry school at the moment, and that's not really the point. The question is whether or not current legislation mandates that graduated optometrists are held to the proper standard for laser certification. My recollection is that the requirements for laser certification of optometrists in OK is pretty minimal, but I'm too lazy to actually look it up myself. As an ophthalmologist, I performed about 60 supervised ALTs during my training.
 
mdkurt said:
I'm aware that ALT is not being taught clinically at any optometry school at the moment, and that's not really the point. The question is whether or not current legislation mandates that graduated optometrists are held to the proper standard for laser certification. My recollection is that the requirements for laser certification of optometrists in OK is pretty minimal, but I'm too lazy to actually look it up myself. As an ophthalmologist, I performed about 60 supervised ALTs during my training.

I see, I can't give you any specifics about OK OD laser use (don't have any to give). I doubt you could find many, either. As far as standards go, of course, it would have to be the "proper standard" (as judged by you mdkurt). I hate to continue off your topic but would you say that most ophthalmologists are comfortable with performing ALT this instant?
 
PBEA said:
Did you perform ALT during your training?

Yes, I did supervised ALT too. We do more than sit around just thinking about surgery... ;)

PBEA, surgery is learning how to do basic fundamental skills well. With more than hundreds of laser and scalpel surgeries completed, ophthalmologists can do most surgical procedures presented to them. Even if I've only done a dozen or so glaucoma lasers, I've completed hundreds of retina and other lasers. I've also performed hundreds of gonioscopies and know the anatomy well. I can perform ALT safely because I have the laser skills, and I know the surgical landmarks.

Optometrists and non-surgeons have a difficult time understanding why surgeons can do so many different types of surgeries under numerous conditions. Surgery is not like cooking. I often must use different skills and techniques even when I don't expect problems. For instance, you never know when the patient will move or cough during cataract surgery that will result in a problem requiring different skill sets to complete the surgery safely.
 
Andrew_Doan said:
Yes, I did supervised ALT too. We do more than sit around just thinking about surgery... ;)

PBEA, surgery is learning how to do basic fundamental skills well. With more than hundreds of laser and scalpel surgeries completed, ophthalmologists can do most surgical procedures presented to them. Even if I've only done a dozen or so glaucoma lasers, I've completed hundreds of retina and other lasers. I've also performed hundreds of gonioscopies and know the anatomy well. I can perform ALT safely because I have the laser skills, and I know the surgical landmarks.

Optometrists and non-surgeons have a difficult time understanding why surgeons can do so many different types of surgeries under numerous conditions. Surgery is not like cooking. I often must use different skills and techniques even when I don't expect problems. For instance, you never know when the patient will move or cough during cataract surgery that will result in a problem requiring different skill sets to complete the surgery safely.

Take it easy AD, I was only asking the question, as I was/am unsure of the frequency. I don't have a difficult time understanding any of the above. It comes as no surprise to me that as ophthalmologists, you train to perform many varieties of ocular surgery. I do understand that a myriad of complications, or surgical sequlae(sp?) are possible with surgery. Anyway, I hate to continue off your topic but would you say that most ophthalmologists are comfortable with performing ALT this instant?
 
PBEA said:
I see, I can't give you any specifics about OK OD laser use (don't have any to give). I doubt you could find many, either. As far as standards go, of course, it would have to be the "proper standard" (as judged by you mdkurt). I hate to continue off your topic but would you say that most ophthalmologists are comfortable with performing ALT this instant?

There are a FEW ophthalmologists who are completely risk-averse and therefore won't do any lasers.
 
mdkurt said:
There are a FEW ophthalmologists who are completely risk-averse and therefore won't do any lasers.

Of course.

I'll close my tangent now.
 
This whole argument is very interesting. If any of you wanted to do these procedures to begin with why did you go into opt. instead of going to medical school and getting into the highly competitive field of opth.? Did you plan on using opt. as a backdoor and working to expand the scope? I am confused why there need to be two pathways to the same thing? I respect opt. and the current funtion it serves, but it just seems that opt. are being motivated by money and not the welfare of the patient when they talk about expanding their current role.
 
ku06 said:
This whole argument is very interesting. If any of you wanted to do these procedures to begin with why did you go into opt. instead of going to medical school and getting into the highly competitive field of opth.? Did you plan on using opt. as a backdoor and working to expand the scope? I am confused why there need to be two pathways to the same thing? I respect opt. and the current funtion it serves, but it just seems that opt. are being motivated by money and not the welfare of the patient when they talk about expanding their current role.

The fact of the matter is that the VAST majority of optoms do not want to expand into surgical procedures (laser or scalpel). However, the few out there that are pushing for these rights are making a bad name for the rest of us (in my opinion at least). I am in optom school and I do not have any desire to perform surgical procedures. I am more than happy to play my primary care role as that is why I chose this profession in the first place. I agree that those that have the desire to perform surgery should go the medical school route. So, in short, what I guess I am saying is that I feel sort of offended that optometry as a whole is being looked down upon as not caring about their patients at all. This is not a fair assumption to make nor is the assumption that we are motivated by money a fair one either. If I had been motivated by money I would've definitely gone into a different field. KU06, don't take that as an attack on you...just throwing out my thoughts in general.
 
I was wondering what y'all thought about expanding an ODs ability to treat and diagnose eye diseases (i.e. expanding their ability to prescribe medications). Also, not consisdering lasers, what other procedures should/should not an OD be able to perform on the eye (removal of objects, etc)?
 
bolus jones said:
The fact of the matter is that the VAST majority of optoms do not want to expand into surgical procedures (laser or scalpel). However, the few out there that are pushing for these rights are making a bad name for the rest of us (in my opinion at least). I am in optom school and I do not have any desire to perform surgical procedures. I am more than happy to play my primary care role as that is why I chose this profession in the first place. I agree that those that have the desire to perform surgery should go the medical school route. So, in short, what I guess I am saying is that I feel sort of offended that optometry as a whole is being looked down upon as not caring about their patients at all. This is not a fair assumption to make nor is the assumption that we are motivated by money a fair one either. If I had been motivated by money I would've definitely gone into a different field. KU06, don't take that as an attack on you...just throwing out my thoughts in general.


OK while you are on this subject, I have a question for you......In 20-30 yrs when refractive surgery is about as common and routine as removing a hang nail.....how are the majority of optos going to make a "good" living without having some refractive surgery as part of OD Refractive Management? There are many out there that are making a living of off optical shops when I feel there should be an expanision of scope and procedures so an OD 5 to 15 years from now doesn't have to rely on selling glasses and contacts rather medical and surgical management. I feel that places like Costco, Walmart, Lenscrafters, Sears, etc...have been demeaning to optometry. Those places are fast food glass shops and when glasses and contacts are replaced (in healthy individuals) by refractive surgery---those places are going to go extinct. I will be private practice and hospital based when I am done and I am all for having refractive surgery as one tool in our toolbox.


At least I am being honest---unlike someother people!
 
futuredoctorOD said:
OK while you are on this subject, I have a question for you......In 20-30 yrs when refractive surgery is about as common and routine as removing a hang nail.....how are the majority of optos going to make a "good" living without having some refractive surgery as part of OD Refractive Management? There are many out there that are making a living of off optical shops when I feel there should be an expanision of scope and procedures so an OD 5 to 15 years from now doesn't have to rely on selling glasses and contacts rather medical and surgical management. I feel that places like Costco, Walmart, Lenscrafters, Sears, etc...have been demeaning to optometry. Those places are fast food glass shops and when glasses and contacts are replaced (in healthy individuals) by refractive surgery---those places are going to go extinct. I will be private practice and hospital based when I am done and I am all for having refractive surgery as one tool in our toolbox.


At least I am being honest---unlike someother people!
You might be being honest, but you're also making a totally fraudulent argument. Your post can be reduced to "optometrists don't make enough money doing what they're trained for, so they should be allowed to start doing surgery," without any loss or distortion of meaning.

There's an esoteric little concept in the medical professions, "patient welfare," and it means putting their best interests ahead of your paycheck. You should investigate it.
 
By the way, futuredoctorOD, first of all, I am being honest. And second of all, there are a lot of OD's who make plenty of money by doing things other than just selling people glasses. Some OD's don't even have a dispensary. Also, you fail to realize that not all patients are ideal candidates for refractive surgery, and there is also much research being done on adaptive optics. What I am saying is that refractive surgery will not likely put optometrists out of business. FP's don't do surgery but do you see them going out of business? They are primary care practitioners.
 
One more thing...I also think that if optoms would stop fighting over surgical rights and focus their attention more on learning everything they possibly can about postoperative care (something that is actually in our scope) that we would be able to have a much better relationship with ophthos. Even if refractive surgery became huge like you are proposing, I'm sure because of the increased volume of surgical cases, ophthalmology would be more than willing to let an OD that knows a lot about postoperative care to handle this aspect of patient care (I know you ophtho guys are reading this forum so what do you think?)
 
aphistis said:
You might be being honest, but you're also making a totally fraudulent argument. Your post can be reduced to "optometrists don't make enough money doing what they're trained for, so they should be allowed to start doing surgery," without any loss or distortion of meaning.

There's an esoteric little concept in the medical professions, "patient welfare," and it means putting their best interests ahead of your paycheck. You should investigate it.


Primer: Your mean sprited sarcasm is unnecessary----You should investigate thinking before you post a reply to me. I have researched this topic now for 3 months and participated in live debates for grades. Secondly, I never ever mentioned that it was acceptable to compromise patient safety Mr. DDS rather I was discussing the economical aspect which is at the root of ANY profession whether you like it or not....You can beat the proverbial hippocratic drum in your idealistic world of white pickett fences and smiling patients with caps and bleached teeth--that is your prerogative. I live in reality where dollars and cents (dollars and sense) predominate. Optometrists in OK have a good track record with the surgical procedures they have been performing for 7 years now---this is fact. Optometric Physicians spend four years in thourough academic and clinical training to work in one area of the body---you don't appreciate this even though your are going to be a dentist. Using Dentistry and Podiatry as a model Optometric education can include surgical procedures (modify the current curricula) and make a available a residency training suitable for safe performing of procedures. You want data-----I will give it to you... ;) I particularly dislike your cavalier and sarcastic attitude you exhibit nonetheless---that is who you are. sigh.......Anyway, Optometric surgery of some sort is inevitable in the future and with proper training refractive surgery is the in the mandate of the profession who pioneered refractive management over a century ago--------OPTOMETRY.

if you didn't catch the last word I said,
OPTOMETRY
 
futuredoctorOD said:
Primer: Your mean sprited sarcasm is unnecessary----You should investigate thinking before you post a reply to me. I have researched this topic now for 3 months and participated in live debates for grades.
Am I supposed to congratulate you or something?

Secondly, I never ever mentioned that it was acceptable to compromise patient safety Mr. DDS rather I was discussing the economical aspect which is at the root of ANY profession whether you like it or not....You can beat the proverbial hippocratic drum in your idealistic world of white pickett fences and smiling patients with caps and bleached teeth--that is your prerogative. I live in reality where dollars and cents (dollars and sense) predominate. Optometrists in OK have a good track record with the surgical procedures they have been performing for 7 years now---this is fact. Optometric Physicians spend four years in thourough academic and clinical training to work in one area of the body---you don't appreciate this even though your are going to be a dentist. Using Dentistry and Podiatry as a model Optometric education can include surgical procedures (modify the current curricula) and make a available a residency training suitable for safe performing of procedures. You want data-----I will give it to you... ;)

Yes, I *would* like some data. And you still haven't answered the fundamental challenge of *why* optometrists need surgical privileges in the first place. I'm totally unacquainted with podiatry, but dentistry is the only branch of the health professions that does most of the work dentists do. We've been surgeons from the inception of our profession. Eye care, on the other hand, is divided into the two fields of optometry & ophthalmology, and there's absolutely no reason for optometrists to experiment in irreversible, delicate surgery since a sufficient pool of surgeons with superior surgical training already exists.

I particularly dislike your cavalier and sarcastic attitude you exhibit nonetheless---that is who you are. sigh.......Anyway, Optometric surgery of some sort is inevitable in the future and with proper training refractive surgery is the in the mandate of the profession who pioneered refractive management over a century ago--------OPTOMETRY.

if you didn't catch the last word I said,
OPTOMETRY

Again with the manifest-destiny garbage. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I've yet to see an argument in favor of OD surgery that doesn't smack of inferiority complex or, in the worst cases, outright greed.
 
lol you need to follow the advice from your signature:

"Never argue with an idiot; people might have trouble telling you apart." :D

p.s. wow... 2000+ posts.. i bow down to the postmaster~!
 
aphistis said:
Am I supposed to congratulate you or something?



Yes, I *would* like some data. And you still haven't answered the fundamental challenge of *why* optometrists need surgical privileges in the first place. I'm totally unacquainted with podiatry, but dentistry is the only branch of the health professions that does most of the work dentists do. We've been surgeons from the inception of our profession. Eye care, on the other hand, is divided into the two fields of optometry & ophthalmology, and there's absolutely no reason for optometrists to experiment in irreversible, delicate surgery since a sufficient pool of surgeons with superior surgical training already exists.



Again with the manifest-destiny garbage. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I've yet to see an argument in favor of OD surgery that doesn't smack of inferiority complex or, in the worst cases, outright greed.


Again Mr. DDS status quo.....your not seeing my point.....sigh Optometric education should be modified to give PROPER training in surgical procedures----to allow graduating Optometric Physicians to do anterior segment laser work......This will happen eventually...or we can do it the Oklahoma way.....I don't understand whqt your gripe is about including the proper training to do these procedures...Using the Medical argument----you my friend are NOT a medical doctor and should not be doing any surgery or prescribing any oral meds----because you don't have an MD! Don't tell me that dental education matches medical school in the sense of do rotations thru EVERYTHING---you guys do not!.......You just have a derogatory view of Optometry and you have the complex---because you think you are better and you are not. No matter what you think-----there are those out there in Allopathy that still think you are inferior b/c you do not have the MD....unless you go OMFS, MD....then you are cool....lol I am very proud of the OD......I just believe in evolution----Natural selection....the environment selecting out for the fittest alleles and optometry has come of age.....lol :D
 
futuredoctorOD said:
Again Mr. DDS status quo.....your not seeing my point.....sigh Optometric education should be modified to give PROPER training in surgical procedures----to allow graduating Optometric Physicians to do anterior segment laser work......This will happen eventually...or we can do it the Oklahoma way.....I don't understand whqt your gripe is about including the proper training to do these procedures...Using the Medical argument----you my friend are NOT a medical doctor and should not be doing any surgery or prescribing any oral meds----because you don't have an MD! Don't tell me that dental education matches medical school in the sense of do rotations thru EVERYTHING---you guys do not!.......You just have a derogatory view of Optometry and you have the complex---because you think you are better and you are not. No matter what you think-----there are those out there in Allopathy that still think you are inferior b/c you do not have the MD....unless you go OMFS, MD....then you are cool....lol I am very proud of the OD......I just believe in evolution----Natural selection....the environment selecting out for the fittest alleles and optometry has come of age.....lol :D

Interesting... How is this different from your penultimate profession!!!
 
futuredoctorOD, I hardly think that pointing out the occasional tensions between MDs and DDSs does any good. Instead, why not show some evidence showing that a) ODs are qualified to do the procedures that you think they should (Oklahoma information about laser surgery, for example) and b) answers questions that skeptics have. For example, many people are convinced that there is not sufficient need for ODs to be doing laser surgery. This would be a great place to show some statistics that give evidence of areas that would benefit from more laser surgeons. Talk of evolution and alleles, which apparently relate to optometric scope of practice, does nothing to convince anyone that ODs should be doing laser work. And, as one last little side note, I happen to be fairly pro-optometry but please, for the sake of everyone who reads these posts, use a spell/grammer check. I'm not a great speller either, so I type in Word and then paste into SDN. I highly recommend this.

brendang, I know that residency is taxing and you might be drained at the end of your day, but when you quote, in bold letters, the part that said "using the medical argument - you my friend are not a medical doctor" and so on; even you should see that futuredoctorOD was demonstrating his opinion of the attitude many MDs possess, not stating actual fact. Now, since I'm posting anyway, please try and not post one liners that do absolutely nothing to the topic at hand. If I can work in something useful in a post this long (the part about giving evidence of OD ability and need for more laser guys), than you can probably either add something useful as well or just not post at all.

Just trying to keep things relevant and legible.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
futuredoctorOD, I hardly think that pointing out the occasional tensions between MDs and DDSs does any good. Instead, why not show some evidence showing that a) ODs are qualified to do the procedures that you think they should (Oklahoma information about laser surgery, for example) and b) answers questions that skeptics have. For example, many people are convinced that there is not sufficient need for ODs to be doing laser surgery. This would be a great place to show some statistics that give evidence of areas that would benefit from more laser surgeons. Talk of evolution and alleles, which apparently relate to optometric scope of practice, does nothing to convince anyone that ODs should be doing laser work. And, as one last little side note, I happen to be fairly pro-optometry but please, for the sake of everyone who reads these posts, use a spell/grammer check. I'm not a great speller either, so I type in Word and then paste into SDN. I highly recommend this.

brendang, I know that residency is taxing and you might be drained at the end of your day, but when you quote, in bold letters, the part that said "using the medical argument - you my friend are not a medical doctor" and so on; even you should see that futuredoctorOD was demonstrating his opinion of the attitude many MDs possess, not stating actual fact. Now, since I'm posting anyway, please try and not post one liners that do absolutely nothing to the topic at hand. If I can work in something useful in a post this long (the part about giving evidence of OD ability and need for more laser guys), than you can probably either add something useful as well or just not post at all.

Just trying to keep things relevant and legible.

thanks... i'll keep that in mind.
 
What happened to that data you were bragging about, eh?

futuredoctorOD said:
Again Mr. DDS status quo.....your not seeing my point.....sigh Optometric education should be modified to give PROPER training in surgical procedures----to allow graduating Optometric Physicians to do anterior segment laser work......This will happen eventually...or we can do it the Oklahoma way.....I don't understand whqt your gripe is about including the proper training to do these procedures...
My gripe is that the proper training you're referring to doesn't currently exist, but you don't seem to think that's any reason not to pressure for licensure to do the procedures anyway.

Using the Medical argument----you my friend are NOT a medical doctor and should not be doing any surgery or prescribing any oral meds----because you don't have an MD!Don't tell me that dental education matches medical school in the sense of do rotations thru EVERYTHING---you guys do not!.......
Gee, gomer, is there anything else I need to know about dentistry?

Using what medical argument? I couldn't care less about the initials behind somebody's name--as long as they indicate the individual in question is properly trained & competent in the therapies they employ.

I'd ask you to lay off the red herrings and quit putting words in my mouth, but if I did that I suspect you'd have nothing left to say.

You just have a derogatory view of Optometry and you have the complex---because you think you are better and you are not.
Again with the words in my mouth.

No matter what you think-----there are those out there in Allopathy that still think you are inferior b/c you do not have the MD....unless you go OMFS, MD....then you are cool....lol
You've spent as much time micharacterizing dentistry in this post as you have inflating optometry. Is there anything else I need to know about my profession?

Is I am very proud of the OD......I just believe in evolution----Natural selection....the environment selecting out for the fittest alleles and optometry has come of age.....lol :D
I've mentioned this before, but you keep validating the observation--every single attempt you've made at justifying optometry's expansion into laser surgery has been rooted firmly in naked self-aggrandization, without even the palest of lip service toward patient welfare. I find this very telling.

If you're proud of the OD, use it to the end for which it was created.
 
aphistis said:
What happened to that data you were bragging about, eh?


My gripe is that the proper training you're referring to doesn't currently exist, but you don't seem to think that's any reason not to pressure for licensure to do the procedures anyway.


Gee, gomer, is there anything else I need to know about dentistry?

Using what medical argument? I couldn't care less about the initials behind somebody's name--as long as they indicate the individual in question is properly trained & competent in the therapies they employ.

I'd ask you to lay off the red herrings and quit putting words in my mouth, but if I did that I suspect you'd have nothing left to say.


Again with the words in my mouth.


You've spent as much time micharacterizing dentistry in this post as you have inflating optometry. Is there anything else I need to know about my profession?


I've mentioned this before, but you keep validating the observation--every single attempt you've made at justifying optometry's expansion into laser surgery has been rooted firmly in naked self-aggrandization, without even the palest of lip service toward patient welfare. I find this very telling.

If you're proud of the OD, use it to the end for which it was created.


Let me preface my comments by saying that I have the utmost respect for Dentistry and admire the legal battles they fought and won with allopathy in the last century. In 1996 I took the DAT and scored in the 88th percentile----I really looked into it but decided that it was not for me after shadowing an Oral Surgeon and a Family Practice Dentist. It is a great profession.....That said I feel that "naked self-aggrandization" is not the justification for expansion into limited anterior segment laser surgery for optometry rather providing a service safely by the group that makes up statistically 75-80% of the eye doctors in this country---you guessed it-----Doctors Of Optometry. As to your "soap box" speech regarding patient care what I propose is this.......A. Include thorough surgical training in Optometry schools---not just wet labs but hospital based. B. Offer a 2 year residency for refractive surgery, anterior segment lasers, etc.(trained by experienced OMD's as attendings), C. Modify the education in Optometry schools to include more hospital based clinical med (relevant areas to opthalmic health)--although the hospital system is in essence an Allopathic Business and has been for over a century...This has to change--we need interdisciplinary hospitals with Optometrists, Dentists, Podiatrists, and Chiropractors all on Staff..(See the Texas Medical Center). D. There needs to be cooperation regarding surgery between Optometry and Opthalmology because one side says absolutely no while the other says definitely----don't be fooled---most people deep within the recesses of the optometric academic realm really want some sort of surgical privilages ;) 20 years from now (after hundreds of legal battles)---I assure you all this will have occured and this argument will be moot. You seem very intelligent but I feel somewhat biased..... :) I am very proud of the OD degree as I am aspiring to achieve OD, PhD---degrees.


On a side note, why are you so passionate about this Optometric-Opthalmology issue?
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
futuredoctorOD, I hardly think that pointing out the occasional tensions between MDs and DDSs does any good. Instead, why not show some evidence showing that a) ODs are qualified to do the procedures that you think they should (Oklahoma information about laser surgery, for example) and b) answers questions that skeptics have. For example, many people are convinced that there is not sufficient need for ODs to be doing laser surgery. This would be a great place to show some statistics that give evidence of areas that would benefit from more laser surgeons. Talk of evolution and alleles, which apparently relate to optometric scope of practice, does nothing to convince anyone that ODs should be doing laser work. And, as one last little side note, I happen to be fairly pro-optometry but please, for the sake of everyone who reads these posts, use a spell/grammer check. I'm not a great speller either, so I type in Word and then paste into SDN. I highly recommend this.

brendang, I know that residency is taxing and you might be drained at the end of your day, but when you quote, in bold letters, the part that said "using the medical argument - you my friend are not a medical doctor" and so on; even you should see that futuredoctorOD was demonstrating his opinion of the attitude many MDs possess, not stating actual fact. Now, since I'm posting anyway, please try and not post one liners that do absolutely nothing to the topic at hand. If I can work in something useful in a post this long (the part about giving evidence of OD ability and need for more laser guys), than you can probably either add something useful as well or just not post at all.

Just trying to keep things relevant and legible.
LOL----your point is well put......I am actually a good speller (won several spelling bees as a kid)----I am just a very mediocre typist and always rushed on here! ;)
 
futuredoctorOD said:
Optometric education should be modified to give PROPER training in surgical procedures----to allow graduating Optometric Physicians to do anterior segment laser work..... :D

Um...here's a thought. How about those who want to do surgery actually apply to medical school, have the grades and MCAT scores for medical school, and go to medical school. I don't have a problem with anyone doing surgery, as long as that person has went through the difficult procedure of getting into and finishing medical school.

Medical schools are very discriminating when choosing their students. There is a reason for that. If ODs can start doing surgery, what about if a new profession arises that also caters to just one part of the body...say the ears. These individuals do not go to medical school but are trained for 4 years about only ears, nothing else. Then these individuals start diagnosing and treating (medically and surgically) all problems related to ears. Or how about a profession that caters only to the liver. Goes to school for 4 years to study the liver only. This doesn't make sense. Wanna know why? Because there are already MDs and DOs that do these things. These MDs and DOs have gotten into medical school (very competitive) and are now practicing medicine.

If you want to do surgery, get into medical school. Don't go the easy way and enter an OD school with lower standards than medical school and then expect to practice like an MD or DO.

This is why there is a problem with ODs doing surgery. It is simply because the checks and balances of getting into OD school are so much less than those to get into medical school.
 
Let me first say that I have nothing but respect for both MDs and DOs and they jobs they do. However, your comment about how going to OD school was "the easy way" compared to MD and DO school was a bit off the mark. I went looking for some admissions information on both DO school and OD school and found the following:

DO school info from Princeton Review, OD school info from each school's webpage class profiles.

Des Moines University College of Osteopathic - 25% acceptance rate, mean undergraduate GPA - 3.50
Nova Southeastern College of Osteopathic - 27% acceptance rate, GPA 3.50
Oklahoma State University College of Osteopathic - 33% acceptance, GPA 3.56
West Virginia College of Osteopathic - 21%, 3.43
University of New England Osteopathic - 27%, 3.40


UCBSO - 28%, 3.50
ICO - 19%, couldn't find GPA
UHCO - no acceptance rate given, 3.42 GPA
UAB - 32%, 3.65 GPA

Judging from these statistics, it looks to me like many OD students could, in fact, have gotten into medical school. I had a hard time finding OD admissions information for all of the schools, so I chose the first three that had at least some info on entering class profiles. As you can see, both professional schools have some notable variance in their stats. However, the statistics do tend to be fairly similar. Some places are very selective, some are not. Same goes with undergrad GPA. I think its fair to say that OD school and DO school have about the same GPA (3.5ish) and similar acceptance rates (upper teens to as much as 1/3). Now, there certainly are DO schools that are MUCH more selective. However, going to a DO school that is not as selective does not mean that the students there will be barred from doing delicate medical procedures.

So, instead of just harping on how terribly selective all medical school is and how easy OD school is, why not argue on something with some merit: patients seen, training regiment, or medical competance. There is much more to being a good health care provider than merely getting into a medical school. ODs take the same classes in undergrad (and many schools require more), take a test that I suspect is similar to the MCAT, and interview in the same type of situations as MDs and DOs. Find yourself a reasonable argument against OD scope of practice expansion if you're going to argue this.
 
First of all, let me start off by saying that I am going to an allopathic med school (since you based your post on osteopathich schools) I just didn't want to leave osteopathic out and start an MDvsDO issue.

My main point is that for the opthamologists and MD eye surgeons to practice, they have had to be very competitive. Not only do they have to work hard to get into medical school, they also have to work hard during medical school and score well on boards because ophtho is a pretty competitive specialty to match into. Then they have to do an optho residency and follow up with a fellowship (in order to do such operations as cornea transplants, etc)

So, in reality, one cannot look at the stats of an MD or DO med school and say they are comparable to those of an OD school since only the higher scoring med students can go on to be opthos.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
. take a test that I suspect is similar to the MCAT.


I am sorry, but nothing compares to the MCAT. Not the OAT, not the DAT, and not the PCAT.

I also want to say that I do respect and value optometrists. I just think they should continue doing what they have been trained to do. Remember that laser surgery is not indicated for everyone, so optometrists will still be needed.

This just makes me think back to the whole issue surrounding plastic surgery and how there are people who do plastic surgery without being properly trained and licensed and all of the terrible things that have happened due to that.

There is a reason it takes so long to train a surgeon.
 
futuredoctorOD said:
Let me preface my comments by saying that I have the utmost respect for Dentistry and admire the legal battles they fought and won with allopathy in the last century. In 1996 I took the DAT and scored in the 88th percentile----I really looked into it but decided that it was not for me after shadowing an Oral Surgeon and a Family Practice Dentist. It is a great profession.....
That's very gracious; thank you. Well done on the DAT. I have a great deal of respect for optometry, as my vision is sufficiently poor that I'd be completely sunk without mine.

That said I feel that "naked self-aggrandization" is not the justification for expansion into limited anterior segment laser surgery for optometry rather providing a service safely by the group that makes up statistically 75-80% of the eye doctors in this country---you guessed it-----Doctors Of Optometry. As to your "soap box" speech regarding patient care what I propose is this.......A. Include thorough surgical training in Optometry schools---not just wet labs but hospital based. B. Offer a 2 year residency for refractive surgery, anterior segment lasers, etc.(trained by experienced OMD's as attendings), C. Modify the education in Optometry schools to include more hospital based clinical med (relevant areas to opthalmic health)--although the hospital system is in essence an Allopathic Business and has been for over a century...This has to change--we need interdisciplinary hospitals with Optometrists, Dentists, Podiatrists, and Chiropractors all on Staff..(See the Texas Medical Center).
B) I have no way of knowing whether these particular suggestions are adequate, but they sound at least like you're treating the issue with the gravity it deserves.

A & C) These both sound good on paper, but they're both impossible without uprooting & relocating any school not currently affiliated with a hospital. Even discarding the impressive challenges of logistics & infrastructure, these additions are going to make opto school both a lot more difficult & a lot more expensive. The first isn't that big a deal, since most students will make it through as they do in other health professional schools. The second, however, has the potential to financially restrict access to care. If your education costs double, the money to pay those extra loans needs to come from somewhere, and that "somewhere" is going to be your patient base.

If a legitimate shortage of ocular surgeons exists--I have no idea, but I think the burden of proof lies on you to demonstrate that it does--then you're providing a service that can't otherwise be obtained, and I can't carp too much about that. If, however, no shortage exists, then as a profession any successful efforts at expansion will occur at the expense of optometry's mission of primary care, and at that point you're going to be hard-pressed to offer non-monetary justifications for the expansion. If inadequately trained optometrist surgeons are out operating, they're detracting from patient care both by the procedures they're placing patients at risk by performing, AND by the opportunity cost of patients they're not seeing in the clinic while they're operating. This is not a trivial obstacle.

D. There needs to be cooperation regarding surgery between Optometry and Opthalmology because one side says absolutely no while the other says definitely----don't be fooled---most people deep within the recesses of the optometric academic realm really want some sort of surgical privilages ;) 20 years from now (after hundreds of legal battles)---I assure you all this will have occured and this argument will be moot. You seem very intelligent but I feel somewhat biased..... :) I am very proud of the OD degree as I am aspiring to achieve OD, PhD---degrees.
I'm clearly biased, but I'm quite comfortable with that bias because I think it leans clearly to the side of patient safety. It's the position that I think any responsible healthcare provider should adopt. The single most fundamental tenet of patient care, and it's one we share in all healthcare fields, is first, do no harm, and any development with the potential to break this inviolable cornerstone should automatically be viewed with immense scrutiny.

On a side note, why are you so passionate about this Optometric-Opthalmology issue?
It's an interesting debate, and it involves issues of principle that extend far beyond the immediate question of OD vs. MD. I'm far less interested in this particular situation than in the general application of the ethical principles I've been talking about.
 
bmcgilligan said:
I am sorry, but nothing compares to the MCAT. Not the OAT, not the DAT, and not the PCAT.


I would tend to agree with you, the MCAT is a particularly horrible test. However, unless you have taken both the MCAT and one of the other health profession entrance exams, I hardly think its fair to say that one is that much worse. If you have taken both, and speak from personal experience, then just ignore me and go about your day.

As a side note, is there anyone around who's taken the MCAT and something else who can offer us a comparison?
 
bmcgilligan said:
Um...here's a thought. How about those who want to do surgery actually apply to medical school, have the grades and MCAT scores for medical school, and go to medical school. I don't have a problem with anyone doing surgery, as long as that person has went through the difficult procedure of getting into and finishing medical school.

Medical schools are very discriminating when choosing their students. There is a reason for that. If ODs can start doing surgery, what about if a new profession arises that also caters to just one part of the body...say the ears. These individuals do not go to medical school but are trained for 4 years about only ears, nothing else. Then these individuals start diagnosing and treating (medically and surgically) all problems related to ears. Or how about a profession that caters only to the liver. Goes to school for 4 years to study the liver only. This doesn't make sense. Wanna know why? Because there are already MDs and DOs that do these things. These MDs and DOs have gotten into medical school (very competitive) and are now practicing medicine.

If you want to do surgery, get into medical school. Don't go the easy way and enter an OD school with lower standards than medical school and then expect to practice like an MD or DO.

This is why there is a problem with ODs doing surgery. It is simply because the checks and balances of getting into OD school are so much less than those to get into medical school.

Beautiful reply!!!

Even though you explained the point perfectly, I still doubt futureOD guy understands it.

I guess OD's pushing for the reform all agree with you deep inside, but it's better for them to try and make everyone believe they are really "needed".

:thumbup: :thumbup: bmcgilligan
 
vanelo, you've been warned before. you made your point in the first sentance. there was NO NEED to get that last jab in about "beeing needed".

The patient I took the corneal foreign body out of this morning "needed" me.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
As a side note, is there anyone around who's taken the MCAT and something else who can offer us a comparison?

I took both, 34O on the MCAT and 370 OAT, and can say that IMHO there is no comparison between the difficulty of the MCAT and the OAT. The MCAT is much more difficult in that it is based on knowledge as well as applying that knowledge to a problem or passage, whereas the OAT is just a collection of regurgitation multiple choice questions. The fact that you have to apply knowledge AFTER you have remembered it makes the science much more difficult.(although the QR section was a little frustrating on the OAT, since I had 5 or 6 blank at the end!)

The reading section on the OAT was much easier, for the most part the answer was given in the passage. On the MCAT you needed to "read between the lines" to get the answer.

Also, from an endurance standpoint, the OAT was a 200 meter dash, and the MCAT was a marathon. Pretty much everyone can run fast for a while, but by the time the bio section rolled around it is really tough to still be focused.

Just my $.02
 
I'm not sure how the OAT is scored or what a great score is, but my roommate in college took the MCATs with me 4 years ago. He then took the MCATs 2 more times. Unfortunately, he was unable to get above a 26. He then started to look into dentistry, grad school, optometry and even took the LSATs. He took the OAT's this past year, and i think he said he got like a 340 or 360, but he said it should be enough to get him in to most places. He's a workhorse, and can sit down for hours just memorizing stuff, and said that the OAT's were much easier in that regard. There was less stuff he had to think through, or like Badger said, read between the lines for. That being said, I really don't care how much harder or easier the OATs are than the MCATs. If you want to be a surgeon, take the MCATs and go to med school. The two fields are different. If there is ever a huge need for an optometric surgeon (which i doubt there ever will be), I suppose we can make a new program where optometrists take the USMLE's and apply for a residency similar to ophthalmology, but I doubt the efficiency or ease of implementation of a program like this, and I doubt the need for this outside the greed of certain OD's to be who want to do refractive surgery due to manifest destiny.
 
Well, it's nice to see that this arguement can be found in this forum, the OMD forum, seniordoc forum, and in most state legislatures around the country. I would like to address this issue from a slightly different perspective. Please note that I do not speak for optometry. I am a simply a practicing OD that has performed ALT's, YAG's and LPI's. I have never performed cataract surgery or any other procedure requiring a scapel. What I would like to propose, is that maybe organized ophthalmology has misunderstood the desires of the majority of OD's in this country. I know there is a vocal minority that has been quoted by the AMA and the AOA as saying they want to do cataract surgery. I believe this should be seen as a political tactic. Ask for more than you want with the hopes of backing down to the actual amount you want. I personally do not agree with this tactic, but unfortunately it has proven to be the most successful. Plus, historically, ophthalmology has lied or used scare tactics to state legislators in order to either halt expansion or actually push back current scope of practice. For example, when OD's were trying to get topical diagnostic agents such as phenylephrine in Califorina, OMD's took out a bottle of 10% PE and told legislators, that one drop from that bottle could kill them and if an OD has the ability to use it, patients will die. Pretty scary, huh. Well, OD's won that battle, and unless someone can prove otherwise, there have been no reported deaths attributed to an OD's use of PE. So both sides feel they need to do whatever it takes to get what they want.

What I believe the majority of the most progressive OD's want is the use of orals, injectables, and anterior seg lasers. Most OD's that are in practice, as opposed to those who spend their time lobbying, are very content with our current scope. For me, orals (which I have priviledges for in Washington state), and lasers would be helpful in my practice and would benefit patients. I have never had a patient that I felt would benefit from me using injectables. So I am going to address this issue from the position that all OD's want is the use of the Nd:Yag and Argon lasers. The rest of you can argue whether or not OD's should be able to perform catarat surgery as I do not believe I will ever see that day.

The way I see it this issue has boiled down to 3 main questions:

1) Do OD's get the proper training to perform these procedures?
2) Do we really need more providers performing these procedures?
3) How would this benefit patients and the health care system?

I'll give you my opinion:

1) The answer that this question is only a few do. NSUCO, in OK is the only optometry school that I know of that trains its students on lasers. The students perform these procedures on live patients that are referred in from either the school clinic or one of its outreach clinics. Is the training adequate? Well, according to one source on the OK board, there are approximately 290 OD's in OK performing laser procedures. It is estimated that several thousand procedures are perfomed annually. OD's have had this priviledge since the late 80's when the Yag was first introduced and the OK law had no wording preventing OD's from using them. There was a 1-2 year break in the late 90's when OMD's successfully stopped OD's until the new law was written to include lasers in '98. In all that time, there has been no reported complications due to an OD performing these procedures. So it seems to me, that by adding this curriculum to all the schools, OD's can be properly trained to perform laser procedures.

2) It's funny to me that access to care is even an issue here. The question shouldn't be how far would a patient have to travel to see an MD, because that would only justify expanded scope for rural doctors. Also, I don't see the OMD's saying "we don't need anymore eye surgeons in Seattle, so we will not allow anymore OMD's to locate there until one retires, or the population increases". Whether or not either side would like to admit it, changing the scope of practice has financial implications, more so for the OMD than for the OD. The procedures themselves are not profitable. In fact, my local corneal specialist (good friend of mine) has told me that when you include the lease and maintenence on the YAG, it is not profitable for him. So, OD's don't want this for the money. Where the OMD can make extra money is on the exam and consult fee. Considering that OD's see the majority of the patients in this country, that represents a lot of referrals for anterior seg lasers. As I said above, OD's have shown they can and will perform these procedures without complications, thereby cutting off a decent amount of referrals to OMD's.

3) I have heard the arguement that allowing OD's to perform lasers hurts patients (surgery by surgeons). Once again, there has not been one reported complication in OK. Let me explain how it can help patients and our health care system. In my practice, when I see a 70 year old Medicare patient that is pseudophakic in both eyes and has a complaint of decreased vision, I charge my normal exam fee. If I diagnose a posterior cap opacity, and refer to the local OMD that patient will be charged another exam fee plus an additional fee because it is a consult. Once the OMD confirms my diagnosis (not once have I seen an OMD disagree with my assessment on the need for a YAG) then he performs the YAG and sends the patient back to me at one week. This essentially more than doubles the cost of this encounter by having both of us see this patient. If I had been able to perform the YAG right then, there would less of a burden on Medicare. Not to mention the additional burden of lost work hours, if this patient needed a ride to both appointments and that person had to take off work to do it.

Just my opinion, and at least a more realistic look at what OD's really want and why they want it from someone in private practice.
 
JR said:
That actually was pretty funny, mdkurt! I am also quite impressed with the fact that phrases like "who do you think you are" and "you are no better then..." come mostly from OD posts.
Don't some of these ophthalmologist have their own forum??? it is funny how they are always hanging around this forum like hienas waiting to be fed. Get a life... grow up... be professional... we all are in this for the patient's benefit and whoever thinks that this whole doctor ordeal is about some stupid title behind their name is not fit to be a doctor. So ophthalmologist that are hanging around this forum do yourselves and your profession a favor and inflate your egoes, it is not about you, it is about the patient and the patients need both ODs and MDs... so grow up. Also haven't you ever thought that the reason that Optometry ever came about to be is because you guys weren't doing your job properly... well that and thousands of others reasons is why ODs exist and why we will always be around...stronger and stronger and stronger.

Albaida
 
Ben Chudner said:
The way I see it this issue has boiled down to 3 main questions:

1) Do OD's get the proper training to perform these procedures?
2) Do we really need more providers performing these procedures?
3) How would this benefit patients and the health care system?.

The issue here is surgical competencies and protecting patients' rights. Oklahoma is the only school that trains optometrists to perform anterior segment lasers. I argue that most optometry students do NOT see enough pathology to make the call who should receive a laser surgery, particularly PIs. I've spoken to many optometrists and your training is NOT standardized and not comprehensive. You don't see a variety pathology. This is the problem. You lack standard residency programs. Your clinical rotations during the last two years do not allow you to see enough diseases under supervision.

I can train my technicians how to fire a Yag or Argon laser; however, should he place an LPI in patients? There's more to a surgeon than knowing how to cut. We also know when to and when not to cut. We have an established track to train ophthalmic surgeons, and if you want to do surgery, then go to medical school.

For instance, an OD sent us a patient for a LPI due to acute angle closure. However, the patient did not have acute angle closure. Instead, we diagnosed chronic glaucoma from pseudoexfoliation syndrome (http://webeye.ophth.uiowa.edu/eyeforum/case8.htm). There is more to doing surgery than simply knowing how to go through the motions. The decision making process to determining when to do surgery requires medical school, residency, and experience with pathology.

To argue against your argument that granting laser surgery privileges saves society money, I just described a situtation where an OD doing a laser PI would have cost the patient more money.

A little knowledge is dangerous. It fools people into thinking that they are more competent. As medical doctors learn more, we become more conservative. As non-medical doctors learn a little, they all think what medical doctors do is 'easy'.

The leaders in optometry want cataract surgery. Look at the laws trying to be passed in Oklahoma, New Jersey, and New Mexico. The language is not preserving your epilations and drops. It's legislation preparing your profession for entry into intraocular surgery. Also, your silence to these advancements in legislation is your support of the "few" that you claim are responsible for the push into scalpel surgery.
 
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