Optometric Physicians

[aphistis]

Don't some of these ophthalmologist have their own forum??? it is funny how they are always hanging around this forum like hienas waiting to be fed. Get a life... grow up... be professional... we all are in this for the patient's benefit and whoever thinks that this whole doctor ordeal is about some stupid title behind their name is not fit to be a doctor. So ophthalmologist that are hanging around this forum do yourselves and your profession a favor and inflate your egoes, it is not about you, it is about the patient and the patients need both ODs and MDs... so grow up. Also haven't you ever thought that the reason that Optometry ever came about to be is because you guys weren't doing your job properly... well that and thousands of others reasons is why ODs exist and why we will always be around...stronger and stronger and stronger.

Albaida

Well, I certainly stand corrected. Everyone here knows the opinion I *used* to hold, but after reading this riveting persuasive argument, I've seen the error of my former ways. From now on when I want to make a point, I'll just make sure I use extra-large type so I can convince *everyone*.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Well, I certainly stand corrected. Everyone here knows the opinion I *used* to hold, but after reading this riveting persuasive argument, I've seen the error of my former ways. From now on when I want to make a point, I'll just make sure I use extra-large type so I can convince *everyone*.

Trouble sleeping last night?

 

[aphistis]

Trouble sleeping last night?

?

Heck no. I slept like the dead last night. Seems to be a common occurrence on Friday nights this year, unfortunately. Gotta get up early to make it to the golf course, though!

 

[Ben Chudner]

Thank you Dr. Doan for yet another example of how wonderful your school is. It appears to me, however, that eye doctor is not specific enough to mean OD. I will, for the sake of this discussion, accept the assumption that this was an OD that referred the patient in. Since we are making assumptions, I will make some more. I will assume that this OD is not a grad of the OK school. I will further assume that this OD graduated 20-30 years ago in a state that did not allow the treatment of glaucoma at the time so he has not been adequately trained. These cases are not proving your point, rather the lack of an OK case is helping to prove mine. I have never said that OD's could jump right in and perform lasers. What I have said is that we can be adequately trained to do so. I have also said that only OK trained OD's are at that level now.

Here's a bit of history. Unlike OMD's, when a new procedure comes on the market or in this case becomes legal, OD's are not grandfathered in. There is a specific education requirement that needs to be met as well as potentially cases that need to be co-managed with OMD's (depending on the state and the procedure). For example and to put this all in perspective as to why I have trouble believing your arguements, OD's heard similar horror stories when they tried to get diagnostic agents such as phenylephrine. More recently, OMD's have told state legislators in California that if OD's treat glaucoma (specifically with beta blockers) patients with COPD will die. The problem with these scare tactics is that there is no evidence to back them up. I do not mean about the potentially fatal complication, I mean that OD's will be the cause of it. OMD's have never presented proof that OD's in other states have done worse than OMD's in those same states. Getting back to the history. OD's in CA did win the right to use topical glaucoma meds, however, most have not yet met the requirements, and many will never meet them. There are several states with different levels of scope. As older docs that, quite frankly should not expand their scope, retire there will be a uniform scope of practice. This will be true for lasers. Most older practicing OD's will not be able to or will choose not to get certified. This insures that the proper training takes place before an OD shoots the laser.

Dr. Doan you and I will never agree on this issue and we will never convince one another to change their mind. I respect you position and your passion for your profession, but I think it is time to agree to disagree. When you come up with complication rates in OK that show that OD's make more mistakes (percentage wise) than OMD's I am willing to revisit this arguement (please don't go off on lack of procedures, as I have stated in other posts, OD's are believed to have reached over 10,000 cases). Until that time, I guess we can let the states decide this. In OK, you can be sure that until OMD's can show that OD's have had higher complication rates, this law will not change. You can continue to talk about patient safety until you are blue in the face, but as long as the reality in OK does not match your arguement, things are only going to move forward. Also, do not interpret my silence on cataract surgery as approval of moving toward this procedure. That is naive and disrespectful. Not to mention untrue.

 

[mdkurt]

I am a simply a practicing OD that has performed ALT's, YAG's and LPI's.

I thought you mentioned somewhere that you practiced in in Washington State. On what were you performing these procedures?

 

[modemduck]

When you come up with complication rates in OK that show that OD's make more mistakes (percentage wise) than OMD's I am willing to revisit this arguement (please don't go off on lack of procedures, as I have stated in other posts, OD's are believed to have reached over 10,000 cases). Until that time, I guess we can let the states decide this. In OK, you can be sure that until OMD's can show that OD's have had higher complication rates, this law will not change. You can continue to talk about patient safety until you are blue in the face, but as long as the reality in OK does not match your arguement, things are only going to move forward. Also, do not interpret my silence on cataract surgery as approval of moving toward this procedure. That is naive and disrespectful. Not to mention untrue.

When OMDs come up w/the complication rates in OK? Please Ben, it should be the responsibility of ODs to account for and publish their results. This has not been done and patients will suffer in the long run, over 10,000 cases and no errors or complications (thats BS).

Why don't we just let podiatrists do any eye surgery that is lucrative and if we can't prove that OMDs are better, than more power to them. No better yet, lets allow psychologists to do procedures too. In the end optometrists either didn't make the cut for medschool or decided they enjoyed optometry more than medicine. If you want to do surgery go to medical school.

-ra

 

[Loncifer]

When OMDs come up w/the complication rates in OK? Please Ben, it should be the responsibility of ODs to account for and publish their results. This has not been done and patients will suffer in the long run, over 10,000 cases and no errors or complications (thats BS).

Why don't we just let podiatrists do any eye surgery that is lucrative and if we can't prove that OMDs are better, than more power to them. No better yet, lets allow psychologists to do procedures too. In the end optometrists either didn't make the cut for medschool or decided they enjoyed optometry more than medicine. If you want to do surgery go to medical school.

-ra

It would seem reasonable to me that as it is the AAO and OMDs that are claiming that ODs are endangering patient safety, it is the AAO and OMDs that should provide the data to support their claim.

 

[Ben Chudner]

I thought you mentioned somewhere that you practiced in in Washington State. On what were you performing these procedures?

You are correct. I currently practice in Washington and so I cannot perform lasers now. I was in OK in 1997, before OMD's temporarily stopped the OD's.

 

[bmcgilligan]

When OMDs come up w/the complication rates in OK? Please Ben, it should be the responsibility of ODs to account for and publish their results. This has not been done and patients will suffer in the long run, over 10,000 cases and no errors or complications (thats BS).

Why don't we just let podiatrists do any eye surgery that is lucrative and if we can't prove that OMDs are better, than more power to them. No better yet, lets allow psychologists to do procedures too. In the end optometrists either didn't make the cut for medschool or decided they enjoyed optometry more than medicine. If you want to do surgery go to medical school.

-ra

Great post. This sums up the argument. Anyone can be trained to do a procedure. (In undergrad I harvested corneas and whole globes for transplant....just gotta learn the procedure) What is important is that the OMDs know when to do the procedure and when not to.

 

[mdkurt]

It would seem reasonable to me that as it is the AAO and OMDs that are claiming that ODs are endangering patient safety, it is the AAO and OMDs that should provide the data to support their claim.

Sure...we'll just stroll right into every office of optometry in Oklahoma, violate every HIPPA rule known to man, and leaf through all the charts. The onus is on optometry to provide its complication rates. I'm not afraid to say that my patient had a severe pressure spike following ALT. There was no malpractice lawsuit generated, but I know that it still counts as a big complication.

Ben, how many lasers did you perform on humans?

 

[Ben Chudner]

When OMDs come up w/the complication rates in OK? Please Ben, it should be the responsibility of ODs to account for and publish their results. This has not been done and patients will suffer in the long run, over 10,000 cases and no errors or complications (thats BS).

Why don't we just let podiatrists do any eye surgery that is lucrative and if we can't prove that OMDs are better, than more power to them. No better yet, lets allow psychologists to do procedures too. In the end optometrists either didn't make the cut for medschool or decided they enjoyed optometry more than medicine. If you want to do surgery go to medical school.

-ra

I think you might have missed my point. What I am trying to say is that I am sure if it could be proven that patients have been more harmed in any way by OD's performing lasers, the OK MD's and DO's would be able to produce that info. I am simply asking you to find cases where an OMD had to step in because of an error caused only because an OD performed the procedure. Let me put it another way; I am saying that patients are not worse off in OK because OD's have been performing lasers, now prove me wrong. You are saying that patients are worse off, and my proof to you is that there are no reports of increased complications in OK laser patients compared to other states where only MD's are performing the lasers. Andrew has tons of cases from Iowa, isn't there a school in OK that would have similar examples? And not examples of missed diagnosis, I would like to see cases of botched laser procedures that caused patient harm. One case, however, does not really prove you point either, as I am sure I can find one from an OMD. It seems to me the burden of proof in OK is on your side.

As an aside, why must your arguement always come down to insulting OD's? You have no idea why people choose optometry over medical school, and neither do I. The difference is that I don't attack your side with insults, rather I try to present you with additional information in a mature, professional way. If it makes you feel better about yourself to say that I couldn't get into medical school, that's fine with me, but it really doesn't do anything to impress me or change my mind.

 

[Ben Chudner]

Sure...we'll just stroll right into every office of optometry in Oklahoma, violate every HIPPA rule known to man, and leaf through all the charts. The onus is on optometry to provide its complication rates. I'm not afraid to say that my patient had a severe pressure spike following ALT. There was no malpractice lawsuit generated, but I know that it still counts as a big complication.

Ben, how many lasers did you perform on humans?

We have already addressed the issue of whether or not malpractice claims are a good indicator. As for your pressure spike, if that happened to an OD and he couldn't get the pressure down, then an OMD would end up with that patient. Why haven't we seen OMD's in OK stand up and say look at how many patients I have seen because an OD performed this procedure? I am curious as to how I could find out the complication rates of these procedures done by OK OMD's.

To answer your question Kurt, I was in OK for a short time and performed 3 YAG's, 2 PI's and 1 ALT. I did not graduate from the OK school. I am not claiming to be an expert. In fact if the law were to change today in WA, I would still have to complete all the additional education and training that would be required to get laser certification. My point has always been that in OK, there is a program in place that trains OD's to perform these procedures. As of right now, I have not seen any report that shows increased patient harm in OK compared to other states. In order for all OD's to be laser certified, each remaining school would have to make some drastic changes in their curriculum, and no OD would be grandfathered in.

 

[modemduck]

I think you might have missed my point. What I am trying to say is that I am sure if it could be proven that patients have been more harmed in any way by OD's performing lasers, the OK MD's and DO's would be able to produce that info. I am simply asking you to find cases where an OMD had to step in because of an error caused only because an OD performed the procedure. Let me put it another way; I am saying that patients are not worse off in OK because OD's have been performing lasers, now prove me wrong. You are saying that patients are worse off, and my proof to you is that there are no reports of increased complications in OK laser patients compared to other states where only MD's are performing the lasers. Andrew has tons of cases from Iowa, isn't there a school in OK that would have similar examples? And not examples of missed diagnosis, I would like to see cases of botched laser procedures that caused patient harm. One case, however, does not really prove you point either, as I am sure I can find one from an OMD. It seems to me the burden of proof in OK is on your side.

As an aside, why must your arguement always come down to insulting OD's? You have no idea why people choose optometry over medical school, and neither do I. The difference is that I don't attack your side with insults, rather I try to present you with additional information in a mature, professional way. If it makes you feel better about yourself to say that I couldn't get into medical school, that's fine with me, but it really doesn't do anything to impress me or change my mind.

Ben, I apologize for being rude to you; it seemed as if you were in the group that actually enjoyed optometry more than medicine and ophthalmology. You can imagine how you would feel if you were an OMD and watched many of your cases and referrals go over to the next guy that didn't have your training. Imagine this happening b/c of lobbying and political power struggles. It makes people interested in ophtho really annoyed, but you are right it shouldn't come down to personal insults.

That being said, it is so obvious we don't see eye to eye. ODs will continue to fight for expansion and OMDs will resist. The only thing is that younger OMDs are well aware of this and are becoming more and more savvy in regards to protecting their field ie: Dr. Doan. One definite plus OMDs have is that in general they are insanely bright and you do NOT want to face off in debate w/someone like Doan or JR... however there are more ODs and you have more money for lobbying. Also the desire to do business and make money is more instilled in the mind of an OD and money is a powerful force. All it is going to take is one case that an OD majorly screws up (and it WILL happen if ODs would ever publish their data) and OMDs will work hard to slam the door shut... and hard.

- ra

 

[Ben Chudner]

Ben, I apologize for being rude to you; it seemed as if you were in the group that actually enjoyed optometry more than medicine and ophthalmology. You can imagine how you would feel if you were an OMD and watched many of your cases and referrals go over to the next guy that didn't have your training. Imagine this happening b/c of lobbying and political power struggles. It makes people interested in ophtho really annoyed, but you are right it shouldn't come down to personal insults.

That being said, it is so obvious we don't see eye to eye. ODs will continue to fight for expansion and OMDs will resist. The only thing is that younger OMDs are well aware of this and are becoming more and more savvy in regards to protecting their field ie: Dr. Doan. One definite plus OMDs have is that in general they are insanely bright and you do NOT want to face off in debate w/someone like Doan or JR... however there are more ODs and you have more money for lobbying. Also the desire to do business and make money is more instilled in the mind of an OD and money is a powerful force. All it is going to take is one case that an OD majorly screws up (and it WILL happen if ODs would ever publish their data) and OMDs will work hard to slam the door shut... and hard.

- ra

I agree you and I will never see eye to eye, but I have a lot of friends that OMD's and we don't see eye to eye either. I realize that OMD's have drawn the line in the sand, and as I have said many times I can respect that. I was allowing the OD students to hear the other side, afterall this is actually in the optometry forum.

I appreciate your apology, however, saying that the deisre to do business and make money are more instilled in the mind of an OD is once again rude, and completely unfounded. Just because I have positioned my practice to make money has nothing to do with my optometric education, and says nothing about the care I want to provide my patients. Should I condemn the local MD's that own an ASC and then fight anyone that tries to file for a certificate of need, theryby ensuring their ASC stays profitable?

Also, while I do not doubt the intellegence of Dr. Doan and JR, I guess OK must have some insanely bright OD's as well. I'm not sure how OD's publishing their data will result in a case that an OD majorly screws up, but until you find that case, you will have a hard time changing people's minds one way or another in OK. If that case is out there, I am sure some OMD knows about it and we will see it on the front page of one of your publications.

This arguement will not be solved by you and I, and while I have enjoyed the debate, I grow tired of the backhanded compliments and direct attacks. Not just by OMD's, I have seen the OD's be just as rude.

 

[Loncifer]

Sure...we'll just stroll right into every office of optometry in Oklahoma, violate every HIPPA rule known to man, and leaf through all the charts. The onus is on optometry to provide its complication rates...QUOTE]

mdkurt,

Please allow me to be as flippant in my reply:
Scene 1, Act 1:Oklahoma City, OK. An insanely smart OMD strolls into an office of optometry and gets to the truth. All the while, HIPPA regulations are stringently upheld.
Oklahoma OMD: Hey, unqualified *****, I want you to prove to me that you can safely perform procedures you've been doing for over a decade.
Oklahoma OD: Sure, let me drop everything I'm doing so I can sastify your demands.
Oklahoma OMD: Tha's right, refraction monkey. While your at it, polish up my glasses.

 

[JR]

Don't some of these ophthalmologist have their own forum??? it is funny how they are always hanging around this forum like hienas waiting to be fed.

Oh, I am sorry, I did not realize I am suppose to stick to my own forum. This won't happen again

Also haven't you ever thought that the reason that Optometry ever came about to be is because you guys weren't doing your job properly...

Do you mind backing this statement up with some scientific data? I have not heard this argument from OD side before. I guess the best is yet to come.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

When OMDs come up w/the complication rates in OK? Please Ben, it should be the responsibility of ODs to account for and publish their results. This has not been done and patients will suffer in the long run, over 10,000 cases and no errors or complications (thats BS).

Why don't we just let podiatrists do any eye surgery that is lucrative and if we can't prove that OMDs are better, than more power to them. No better yet, lets allow psychologists to do procedures too. In the end optometrists either didn't make the cut for medschool or decided they enjoyed optometry more than medicine. If you want to do surgery go to medical school.

-ra

I agree. Ben's lack of evidence for ODs success does not substantiate any claims that the outcomes in Oklahoma are good. The burden is on the ODs to provide evidence based medicine. Optometrists know what "evidence based medicine" means right? Show me the data in a well designed clinical trial. Then we will talk. Until then, Ben, you're not going to convince anyone.

BTW, I can do brain surgery too without complications.

 

[EYESURG]

OK while you are on this subject, I have a question for you......In 20-30 yrs when refractive surgery is about as common and routine as removing a hang nail.....how are the majority of optos going to make a "good" living without having some refractive surgery as part of OD Refractive Management? There are many out there that are making a living of off optical shops when I feel there should be an expanision of scope and procedures so an OD 5 to 15 years from now doesn't have to rely on selling glasses and contacts rather medical and surgical management. I feel that places like Costco, Walmart, Lenscrafters, Sears, etc...have been demeaning to optometry. Those places are fast food glass shops and when glasses and contacts are replaced (in healthy individuals) by refractive surgery---those places are going to go extinct. I will be private practice and hospital based when I am done and I am all for having refractive surgery as one tool in our toolbox.


At least I am being honest---unlike someother people!

I think you are choosing the wrong profession. I think based on what you said, most optometrists and optometry students would not want to have you as a colleague because your likes are the one that is making me dislike optometry--unfortunately (with all do respect to all optometrists and optometry students.) I think we need to know who you are so they won't accept you in any optometry school. Again and again, if you would like to do refractive surgery then just become an ophthalmologist. I think most optometrists and optometry students will agree with me.

 

[EYESURG]

I would tend to agree with you, the MCAT is a particularly horrible test. However, unless you have taken both the MCAT and one of the other health profession entrance exams, I hardly think its fair to say that one is that much worse. If you have taken both, and speak from personal experience, then just ignore me and go about your day.

As a side note, is there anyone around who's taken the MCAT and something else who can offer us a comparison?

Yeah, I have taken the PCAT & MCAT. PCAT is NOTHING like the MCAT. The MCAT will chew and spit the PCAT into pieces. I am not exagerating, but the MCAT is a very difficult exam.

 

[KwijiboOO]

I hope I don't end up like you guys. Do your job...help some people. Stop crying about who's doing what to who. Bunch of babies.

 

[EYESURG]

Quote:
Don't some of these ophthalmologist have their own forum??? it is funny how they are always hanging around this forum like hienas waiting to be fed.


He should ask himself why people like FutureConMan comes into the Ophthalmology Eye Physicians & Surgeons forum and lies about everything he believes in. In the Ophtho forum he does not support surgery, but here he is all out for refractive surgery to secure his fat pay check. His colors are showing again. What a money digger.

 

[EYESURG]

I hope I don't end up like you guys. Do your job...help some people. Stop crying about who's doing what to who. Bunch of babies.

Apparently, you are not the kind of person that would stand-up for your principles and don't care about patient safety. I'd like to see you recommend a chiropracter to do orthopaedic surgery on your mother.

 

[file014]

I happen to have taken the MCAT, DAT, and OAT. ITs been about 4 years though. I definitely thought the OAT was the hardest for the Verbal section. There were 3 (long) passages with 15-20 questions each instead of 8-9 shorter ones with 5-8 questions each. I dont remember much of the DAT. Except the part with the boxes that you have to fold up in your head was right up my alley. None of the tests was fun to take. But I think the MCAT has the most people taking it every year. I scored about the average ("for successful med school applications) on the MCAT, I smoked the DAT, and I did above average on the OAT.

-file014
OPT 3

 

[mdkurt]

Sure...we'll just stroll right into every office of optometry in Oklahoma, violate every HIPPA rule known to man, and leaf through all the charts. The onus is on optometry to provide its complication rates...QUOTE]

mdkurt,

Please allow me to be as flippant in my reply:
Scene 1, Act 1:Oklahoma City, OK. An insanely smart OMD strolls into an office of optometry and gets to the truth. All the while, HIPPA regulations are stringently upheld.
Oklahoma OMD: Hey, unqualified *****, I want you to prove to me that you can safely perform procedures you've been doing for over a decade.
Oklahoma OD: Sure, let me drop everything I'm doing so I can sastify your demands.
Oklahoma OMD: Tha's right, refraction monkey. While your at it, polish up my glasses.

WTF? I think you took my post the wrong way. What I was trying to point out is that MDs are not able to access any information regarding indications or outcomes of laser surgery performed by ODs. That information is protected by HIPPA, and unless I want to do hard time I can't just raid someone's records and publish them. The only way that information is going to become public is if Oklahoma ODs amass the alleged tens of thousands of cases worth of data and publish some outcomes (treatment success, failures, demographics, etc). If you want that info for MDs, by the way, look no further than Pubmed. We routinely publish data on our outcomes (glaucoma laser trial, anyone?) to be sure that we're not doing more harm than good. If ODs really have such numbers of cases completed, I haven't seen any data, and that's kind of strange.

 

[mdkurt]

We have already addressed the issue of whether or not malpractice claims are a good indicator.

Perhaps we should discuss it further. Standard of care doesn't mean not injuring patients to the extent that they fire up a highly publicized lawsuit. It has more to do with indications and outcomes (success rates). Since we have a conspicuous absence of that data for Oklahoma ODs, ophthalmologists like me are left to speculate.

I am curious as to how I could find out the complication rates of these procedures done by OK OMD's.

It's not hard. Go to Pubmed and search for 'complications of (insert laser surgery here)'. You'll get data for ophthalmologists in general, but since our training is standardized I wouldn't expect Oklahoma ophthalmologists to vary much from published data you'll come across.

To answer your question Kurt, I was in OK for a short time and performed 3 YAG's, 2 PI's and 1 ALT. I did not graduate from the OK school. I am not claiming to be an expert.

Thanks for the clarification. You seemed to be claiming in earlier posts that optometrists are currently being trained adequately to perform laser surgery, so I thought that you did consider yourself an expert. Just for further clarification, did you use those lasers on living humans?

Lastly, I realize nobody is going to change anyone else's mind. I'm grateful for a forum like this, because it allows both sides to speak frankly about a topic that otherwise would be taboo in polite conversation. I think the important point is that both sides lay out their arguments for the impressionable young minds that visit these pages.

 

[lnn2]

....I don't want to participate in surgery personally but I will support a residency program for surgery proceedures for Optometrists....maybe like OMFS---something like that.

For someone who is a pre-OD you seem to know a lot more about OMFS than I! Have you any clues about OMFS? Well, please let me clue you in
Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery:
"The Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery at the University of Pittsburgh offers a six-year dual degree program, combining a medical degree and advanced surgical training in oral and maxillofacial surgery. Residents commence training as first-year interns in the Department, and join their corresponding first-year medical school class in the spring of the first year of medical school. The department’s residents spend a total of 32 months on the oral and maxillofacial surgery service.

PGY-1 Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery
PGY-2 University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine
PGY-3 University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine
PGY-4 University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine/Anesthesia
PGY-5 University of Pittsburgh Medical Center
General Surgery Internship
PGY-6 Chief Resident: Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery"

Btw, I'm against OMFS doing plastic surgery. Unless an OMFS has a formal training (residency/fellowship) in plastic surgery, they need to leave it to the Plastic guys.

....---back to worring about how I am going to get my OD and JD degrees in the next several years!

Maybe you should worry about getting in a OD program first! You don't seem to have the common sense/aptitude for the LSAT.

....Again Mr. DDS status quo....Using the Medical argument----you my friend are NOT a medical doctor and should not be doing any surgery or prescribing any oral meds----because you don't have an MD! Don't tell me that dental education matches medical school in the sense of do rotations thru EVERYTHING---you guys do not!.......there are those out there in Allopathy that still think you are inferior b/c you do not have the MD....unless you go OMFS, MD....then you are cool....lol

I had always thought that dentists were MDs! Thanks for pointing out the obvious fact! "any surgery" or "prescribing any oral meds" that dentists do is WITHIN our SCOPE OF PRACTICE by law. For example a Joe Blow comes in our practice with a moderate size abscess, if I don't provide proper tx, I&D (Incision&Drainage) and proper antibiotic, (because you don't think that's in my scope of practice!) pain med (for patient's comfort) then what'll happen next? Cellulitis, Ludwig's Angina. That's right, go look that up!
If you have a swelling, tooth ache, excruciating pain in lower jaw radiating to your face and ear, trismus, "my whole face hurts, blahhhh!" who would you come crying to?

....I am very proud of the OD......I just believe in evolution----Natural selection....the environment selecting out for the fittest alleles and optometry has come of age.....lol

I see, you've made a very persuasive argument!
So you had an evolution class (btw, that class is a joke, anyone with a common sense can score an easssy A!)
"fittest alleles" so you've remembered something about genetic class. Impressive! Yet, those are irrelevant to your support of surgical privilege for ODs. "Proud" has nothing to do with it!

Nine pages of discussion and yet you have not provided a plausible reason(s) as to WHY an OD should have an "Expanded" scope of practice, the right to do invasive surgical procedures? How do they handle surgical post-op complications? Are they well trained to provide surgical care, possible complications during and after operation? There's no such thing as a "minor," routine, simple surgical procedure! Even when the chances of surgical complications are 1 in billion, how do you know that it won't happen to you? you'd be that 1 in billion!

Scope of Practice and Standard of Care exist for a good reason. Without it anyone can do anything as they please. What's next? Chiropractors doing orthopedic surgery? Why not "EXPANDING" their scope of practice? after all, it's just bones! Don't you think it's a joke? Scope of Practice vs Expanded Scope of Practice vs what's next? Extra Expanded Scope of Practice.

Dig deep inside and ask yourself this question: Who would you choose for an invasive surgical eye procedure for yourself and your loved ones?
Choice A: Andrew Doan, M.D. (AKA Eye physician & Surgeon)
Choice B: Joe Blow, O.D.
I would be a fool to pick Joe Blow over Doan!

Would you go to Doan, M.D for plastic surgery, brain surgery? Why not? He's a surgeon too! Maybe they can incorporate brain surgery training into his program so that he can expand his scope of practice! You know, to provide access to healthcare to his patients!

I'm all for ODs having surgical privilege if and only if they are formally trained in a Post-Doc program specifically designed for those surgical procedures. Untill then, let's "leave it to the beaver" AKA Opthalmologists. As of now, you do not have a leg to stand on regarding this issue! What happened in OK was politics, and the bottom line was money. Money talks, B.S walks, imho!

 

[lnn2]

I happen to have taken the MCAT, DAT, and OAT. ITs been about 4 years though. I definitely thought the OAT was the hardest for the Verbal section. There were 3 (long) passages with 15-20 questions each instead of 8-9 shorter ones with 5-8 questions each. I dont remember much of the DAT. Except the part with the boxes that you have to fold up in your head was right up my alley. None of the tests was fun to take. But I think the MCAT has the most people taking it every year. I scored about the average ("for successful med school applications) on the MCAT, I smoked the DAT, and I did above average on the OAT.

-file014
OPT 3

What exactly are you trying to prove or tell us here? What's the point of your post?

You said you did well enough on the MCAT for "succesful med school applications" but you did not apply! You don't remember much of the DAT but you "smoked" the DAT! (There must had been a really big fire!) but you are not in dental school! Finally the great OAT exam! you had found your calling! your true passion! halleluja!

Well, I guess med and dental schools were not for you, right?! Why the hell did you waste time and money to take them? yeah, intellectual challenge! preparing yourself for the OAT, right?! I'd love to read your personal statement for the OD program!

I'll tell you what else is right up your alley............... Bull****ting!

Stop insulting the SDer's intelligence!

 

[EYESURG]

For someone who is a pre-OD you seem to know a lot more about OMFS than I! Have you any clues about OMFS? Well, please let me clue you in
Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery:
"The Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery at the University of Pittsburgh offers a six-year dual degree program, combining a medical degree and advanced surgical training in oral and maxillofacial surgery. Residents commence training as first-year interns in the Department, and join their corresponding first-year medical school class in the spring of the first year of medical school. The department’s residents spend a total of 32 months on the oral and maxillofacial surgery service.

PGY-1 Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery
PGY-2 University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine
PGY-3 University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine
PGY-4 University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine/Anesthesia
PGY-5 University of Pittsburgh Medical Center
General Surgery Internship
PGY-6 Chief Resident: Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery"

Btw, I'm against OMFS doing plastic surgery. Unless an OMFS has a formal training (residency/fellowship) in plastic surgery, they need to leave it to the Plastic guys.


Maybe you should worry about getting in a OD program first! You don't seem to have the common sense/aptitude for the LSAT.


I had always thought that dentists were MDs! Thanks for pointing out the obvious fact! "any surgery" or "prescribing any oral meds" that dentists do is WITHIN our SCOPE OF PRACTICE by law. For example a Joe Blow comes in our practice with a moderate size abscess, if I don't provide proper tx, I&D (Incision&Drainage) and proper antibiotic, (because you don't think that's in my scope of practice!) pain med (for patient's comfort) then what'll happen next? Cellulitis, Ludwig's Angina. That's right, go look that up!
If you have a swelling, tooth ache, excruciating pain in lower jaw radiating to your face and ear, trismus, "my whole face hurts, blahhhh!" who would you come crying to?

I see, you've made a very persuasive argument!
So you had an evolution class (btw, that class is a joke, anyone with a common sense can score an easssy A!)
"fittest alleles" so you've remembered something about genetic class. Impressive! Yet, those are irrelevant to your support of surgical privilege for ODs. "Proud" has nothing to do with it!

Nine pages of discussion and yet you have not provided a plausible reason(s) as to WHY an OD should have an "Expanded" scope of practice, the right to do invasive surgical procedures? How do they handle surgical post-op complications? Are they well trained to provide surgical care, possible complications during and after operation? There's no such thing as a "minor," routine, simple surgical procedure! Even when the chances of surgical complications are 1 in billion, how do you know that it won't happen to you? you'd be that 1 in billion!

Scope of Practice and Standard of Care exist for a good reason. Without it anyone can do anything as they please. What's next? Chiropractors doing orthopedic surgery? Why not "EXPANDING" their scope of practice? after all, it's just bones! Don't you think it's a joke? Scope of Practice vs Expanded Scope of Practice vs what's next? Extra Expanded Scope of Practice.

Dig deep inside and ask yourself this question: Who would you choose for an invasive surgical eye procedure for yourself and your loved ones?
Choice A: Andrew Doan, M.D. (AKA Eye physician & Surgeon)
Choice B: Joe Blow, O.D.
I would be a fool to pick Joe Blow over Doan!

Would you go to Doan, M.D for plastic surgery, brain surgery? Why not? He's a surgeon too! Maybe they can incorporate brain surgery training into his program so that he can expand his scope of practice! You know, to provide access to healthcare to his patients!

I'm all for ODs having surgical privilege if and only if they are formally trained in a Post-Doc program specifically designed for those surgical procedures. Untill then, let's "leave it to the beaver" AKA Opthalmologists. As of now, you do not have a leg to stand on regarding this issue! What happened in OK was politics, and the bottom line was money. Money talks, B.S walks, imho!

Thank you very much for your post. Unfortunately, this guys who is not even an OD can't seem to get it. I have tried.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

What exactly are you trying to prove or tell us here? What's the point of your post?

You said you did well enough on the MCAT for "succesful med school applications" but you did not apply! You don't remember much of the DAT but you "smoked" the DAT! (There must had been a really big fire!) but you are not in dental school! Finally the great OAT exam! you had found your calling! your true passion! halleluja!

Well, I guess med and dental schools were not for you, right?! Why the hell did you waste time and money to take them? yeah, intellectual challenge! preparing yourself for the OAT, right?! I'd love to read your personal statement for the OD program!

I'll tell you what else is right up your alley............... Bull****ting!

Stop insulting the SDer's intelligence!

The point of his post was in response to a question that I posed. I was curious as to how the OATs compared with the MCAT, PCAT, and DAT. Since I have only taken the MCAT, I had no personal experience about the other 3 tests. So, I asked for anyone who HAD taken more than one of them to compare. As an aside, I'd like to thank everyone who responded to my question.

With that done, you really need to calm down a bit. There was absolutely no reason to get that upset at someone trying to answer my question. This is a place of (generally) civil discussion. Don't get upset just because someone has said that they did well on the DAT and said the VERBAL section of the OAT was, in their opinion, the hardest. If you disagree with that assessment, please say so and give your thoughts on the different tests.

 

[aphistis]

What exactly are you trying to prove or tell us here? What's the point of your post?

You said you did well enough on the MCAT for "succesful med school applications" but you did not apply! You don't remember much of the DAT but you "smoked" the DAT! (There must had been a really big fire!) but you are not in dental school! Finally the great OAT exam! you had found your calling! your true passion! halleluja!

Well, I guess med and dental schools were not for you, right?! Why the hell did you waste time and money to take them? yeah, intellectual challenge! preparing yourself for the OAT, right?! I'd love to read your personal statement for the OD program!

I'll tell you what else is right up your alley............... Bull****ting!

Stop insulting the SDer's intelligence!

Dude, you might want to lay off the bad shrooms. That's one nasty trip you seem to be having.

 

[lnn2]

The point of his post was in response to a question that I posed. I was curious as to how the OATs compared with the MCAT, PCAT, and DAT. Since I have only taken the MCAT, I had no personal experience about the other 3 tests. So, I asked for anyone who HAD taken more than one of them to compare. As an aside, I'd like to thank everyone who responded to my question..

That's nice! Maybe you guys should PM each other! I still don't see how it relates to this particular discussion: "Optometric Physicians" or "Surgical privilege for ODs".
If you can tell me how to compare Oranges vs Tangerines vs Apples vs Grapes then I can tell you how to compare MCAT vs OAT vs PCAT vs DAT. Since I had only taken the DAT, I don't speculate or compare it to other entrance exams. What's the point? It doesn't prove anything. OAT is much harder standardized exam than others so ODs should be given surgical privilege without the formal surgical trainings? Again, it's not relevant to the current discussion.

With that done, you really need to calm down a bit. There was absolutely no reason to get that upset at someone trying to answer my question. This is a place of (generally) civil discussion. Don't get upset just because someone has said that they did well on the DAT and said the VERBAL section of the OAT was, in their opinion, the hardest. If you disagree with that assessment, please say so and give your thoughts on the different tests.

Well, I AM calm!$L%$%$*&&! Can't you tell from my reasoning?! if you think that I'm "upset" then you're mistaken. Irritated and sad (for you guys) are the correct words!!!

In order to participate in an intelligent discussion, you need to keep an open minded and substantiate your claims. I thought that's exactly what I've done, so far! I could care less about how well the poster did on DAT exam or any other exams! Again, it's irrelevant to the discussed topic!

Didn't you guys have to take Argumentative Writting in Undergrad? I guess not! Well, if I may explain it to ya, it works like this: you pick a topic and then you pick your stand, either for it or against it. It can not be both! Then you substantiate your claims with plausible reasons and evidence based medicine...or anything else RELEVANT to support your claim!

With that done, I see your point about "a place of (generally) civil discussion"! I'm usually VERY civilized! but that doesn't mean I can't call out BS when I see it! and I don't sugarcoat bs! I don't seem to take bs very well, although I had tried!

I'm still waiting to hear ONE plausible reason to support OD's claim to "surgical privilege" Would you please educate me? If you can come up with one valid point then I would be out on the street with a sign for ODs with surgical privilege! I would write to my Governor!!! really, I would

 

[lnn2]

Thank you very much for your post. Unfortunately, this guys who is not even an OD can't seem to get it. I have tried.

Well, I too had tried, unfortunately, unsucessful! Oh, the Un-impressionable "young minds"

Dude, you might want to lay off the bad shrooms. That's one nasty trip you seem to be having.

Botany and Chemistry were my minor in undergrad! I can't promise that I'll try but I'll try to try!

 

[albaida]

Well, I certainly stand corrected. Everyone here knows the opinion I *used* to hold, but after reading this riveting persuasive argument, I've seen the error of my former ways. From now on when I want to make a point, I'll just make sure I use extra-large type so I can convince *everyone*.

noted ... but it is funny how you see bold and extra-large type as rude and what you say not.... ironic... don't you have a dentistry forum to be in aphistis? or did they ban you from there??

 

[file014]

What exactly are you trying to prove or tell us here? What's the point of your post?

You said you did well enough on the MCAT for "succesful med school applications" but you did not apply! You don't remember much of the DAT but you "smoked" the DAT! (There must had been a really big fire!) but you are not in dental school! Finally the great OAT exam! you had found your calling! your true passion! halleluja!

Well, I guess med and dental schools were not for you, right?! Why the hell did you waste time and money to take them? yeah, intellectual challenge! preparing yourself for the OAT, right?! I'd love to read your personal statement for the OD program!

Stop insulting the SDer's intelligence!

Well, just ignore my post then if its not what you want to read. I was replying to the posts below (VA Hopeful Doctor and Deek). They weren't asking whether or not I applied to either med or dent, just how the tests compared. Forget my post if its gonna get you all worked up.

I would tend to agree with you, the MCAT is a particularly horrible test. However, unless you have taken both the MCAT and one of the other health profession entrance exams, I hardly think its fair to say that one is that much worse. If you have taken both, and speak from personal experience, then just ignore me and go about your day.

As a side note, is there anyone around who's taken the MCAT and something else who can offer us a comparison?


Yeah, I have taken the PCAT & MCAT. PCAT is NOTHING like the MCAT. The MCAT will chew and spit the PCAT into pieces. I am not exagerating, but the MCAT is a very difficult exam.

 

[futuredoctorOD]

I think you are choosing the wrong profession. I think based on what you said, most optometrists and optometry students would not want to have you as a colleague because your likes are the one that is making me dislike optometry--unfortunately (with all do respect to all optometrists and optometry students.) I think we need to know who you are so they won't accept you in any optometry school. Again and again, if you would like to do refractive surgery then just become an ophthalmologist. I think most optometrists and optometry students will agree with me.

Look, I am choosing Optometry 99% for the wondeful primary care profession that it is. I just feel that there needs to be a proper tract into limited refractive surgical management available for those who would elect to pursue it. I don't want to be attacked for this statement PLEASE! Honestly due to the fact that I have a brother who is a surgeon, I will not do surgery myself becuase I feel that it not something I would want to do!---but it should be available in some way to those OD's who want it (like an OMFS type pathway.) I am just saying instead of having a bunch of Oklahomas like there probably will be....why not have an agreement in creating a legitamate pathway?

and by the way------I think we need to know who you are so they won't accept you in any optometry school. ---is this a threat?

 

[vanelo]

For someone who is a pre-OD you seem to know a lot more about OMFS than I! Have you any clues about OMFS? Well, please let me clue you in
Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery:
"The Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery at the University of Pittsburgh offers a six-year dual degree program, combining a medical degree and advanced surgical training in oral and maxillofacial surgery. Residents commence training as first-year interns in the Department, and join their corresponding first-year medical school class in the spring of the first year of medical school. The department’s residents spend a total of 32 months on the oral and maxillofacial surgery service.

PGY-1 Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery
PGY-2 University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine
PGY-3 University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine
PGY-4 University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine/Anesthesia
PGY-5 University of Pittsburgh Medical Center
General Surgery Internship
PGY-6 Chief Resident: Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery"

Btw, I'm against OMFS doing plastic surgery. Unless an OMFS has a formal training (residency/fellowship) in plastic surgery, they need to leave it to the Plastic guys.


Maybe you should worry about getting in a OD program first! You don't seem to have the common sense/aptitude for the LSAT.


I had always thought that dentists were MDs! Thanks for pointing out the obvious fact! "any surgery" or "prescribing any oral meds" that dentists do is WITHIN our SCOPE OF PRACTICE by law. For example a Joe Blow comes in our practice with a moderate size abscess, if I don't provide proper tx, I&D (Incision&Drainage) and proper antibiotic, (because you don't think that's in my scope of practice!) pain med (for patient's comfort) then what'll happen next? Cellulitis, Ludwig's Angina. That's right, go look that up!
If you have a swelling, tooth ache, excruciating pain in lower jaw radiating to your face and ear, trismus, "my whole face hurts, blahhhh!" who would you come crying to?

I see, you've made a very persuasive argument!
So you had an evolution class (btw, that class is a joke, anyone with a common sense can score an easssy A!)
"fittest alleles" so you've remembered something about genetic class. Impressive! Yet, those are irrelevant to your support of surgical privilege for ODs. "Proud" has nothing to do with it!

Nine pages of discussion and yet you have not provided a plausible reason(s) as to WHY an OD should have an "Expanded" scope of practice, the right to do invasive surgical procedures? How do they handle surgical post-op complications? Are they well trained to provide surgical care, possible complications during and after operation? There's no such thing as a "minor," routine, simple surgical procedure! Even when the chances of surgical complications are 1 in billion, how do you know that it won't happen to you? you'd be that 1 in billion!

Scope of Practice and Standard of Care exist for a good reason. Without it anyone can do anything as they please. What's next? Chiropractors doing orthopedic surgery? Why not "EXPANDING" their scope of practice? after all, it's just bones! Don't you think it's a joke? Scope of Practice vs Expanded Scope of Practice vs what's next? Extra Expanded Scope of Practice.

Dig deep inside and ask yourself this question: Who would you choose for an invasive surgical eye procedure for yourself and your loved ones?
Choice A: Andrew Doan, M.D. (AKA Eye physician & Surgeon)
Choice B: Joe Blow, O.D.
I would be a fool to pick Joe Blow over Doan!

Would you go to Doan, M.D for plastic surgery, brain surgery? Why not? He's a surgeon too! Maybe they can incorporate brain surgery training into his program so that he can expand his scope of practice! You know, to provide access to healthcare to his patients!

I'm all for ODs having surgical privilege if and only if they are formally trained in a Post-Doc program specifically designed for those surgical procedures. Untill then, let's "leave it to the beaver" AKA Opthalmologists. As of now, you do not have a leg to stand on regarding this issue! What happened in OK was politics, and the bottom line was money. Money talks, B.S walks, imho!

Bravo. Every time that guy opens his mouth, my IQ decreases.

Thank God for intelligent people like you that visit this forum.

 

[scraders]

i don't understand -- what's wrong with futuredoctorOD's suggestion of an OMFS-like pathway? please explain reasonably and professionally.

 

[brendang]

i don't understand -- what's wrong with futuredoctorOD's suggestion of an OMFS-like pathway? please explain reasonably and professionally.

simple.... dentists are surgeons by training... some even have the title of "surgeon" in their degree. optometrists, on the other hand, are primary care workers.

 

[cpw]

i'm so over this thread

 

[brendang]

i'm so over optometrists.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

How about this for a middle ground?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2518461#post2518461

 

[bolus jones]

i'm so over optometrists.

Why don't you take your arrogant ass and get out of this thread. There's no room for dinguses like you here.

 

[bolus jones]

How about this for a middle ground?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2518461#post2518461

That's probably the most intelligent thing I've heard yet on this argument. Sounds like a plan that might actually work. As an aside, would ophthalmology really hate optometry as much if this whole debate wasn't going on? It just seems like a useless argument that's causing nothing but hatred and disrespect on each side.

 

[cpw]

Why don't you take your arrogant ass and get out of this thread. There's no room for dinguses like you here.

he's been warned privately. please don't call other users a$$holes....

thanks,
SDN Housestaff

 

[albaida]

i'm so over optometrists.

brendang optometrists don't even care if you are tired of them because your opinion doesn't count.

 

[drbizzaro]

Why don't you take your arrogant ass and get out of this thread. There's no room for dinguses like you here.

i agree 100%

 

[Opii]

Ok, I guess I'm to blame for starting this...

I hearby motion to close this thread and let her drift gently off to the archives.

Thanks for your comments,

--peace out--

I second that motion.

 

[ProZackMI]

Allopathic/osteopathic physicians. Podiatric physicians. Optometric physicians. Chiropractic physicians. Dental physicians. Psychological physicians. Nursing physicians. Legal physicians. Phamaceutical physicians. Physical therapy physicians. Audiometric physicians. Speech and Language Pathology Physicians. Where do we draw the line? What is next, Physician assistant physicians? What's wrong with being optometrists, dentists, nurses, and chiropractors?

Traditionally, the ONLY physicians were MDs and DOs. Today, that has expanded somewhat, under various state scope of practice statutes, but in many states, if anyone other than a DO, MD, or DPM uses the word physician in their advertising, or professional descriptions, that professional can be cited or charged with practicing medicine without a license or fraud -- or both. In Michigan, if a chiropractor or optometrist used the word physician in any professional capacity, he/she would most likely loose her/his license. An OD, by most legal definitions, in most states, is a primary health care provider, and NOT a physician. A few states may have modified their health practice codes, but the term physician is highly protected and very limited in most circumstances. Optometrists are NOT physicians. No way, no how.

The thing is, as professionals, we all go through a great deal of school. Whether your professional degree is an MD, OD, DO, DVM, PharmD, or JD, you have gone through a inordinate amount of school. Be proud of who you are and what your profession is. There's nothing wrong with wanted to expand one's scope of practice, but for the safety of the patients and general public, such expansion should be reasonable and backed with sufficient training/education.

I don't support optometrists performing any type of surgery, nor do I support them referring to themselves as optometric physicians. However, I know that they serve an important role as primary care professionals. I know that optometry school is no walk in the park. I don't think it's a good thing for professional people to sit around and bicker about who's superior or inferior, who deserves this title or that title, etc. If you're an optometrist, be an optometrist and be happy and proud of your professional and practice it with dignity. If some arrogant MD belittles you, so what. You know what you went through to get where you are, so don't let some ***** make you feel like you're less than anyone else.

In some respects, ophthalmology and optometry share a parallel to psychiatry and clinical psychology. Many psychiatrists look down on psychologists, and many psychologists feel they possess superior or equal training to psychiatrists. In fact, like ODs, psychologists now treat, diagnose, and even admit patients into hospitals in most states. In a few states (LA and NM), properly trained PsyD/PhD psychologists can Rx psychotropics. They have expanded their scope of practice with success. I know this has scared many psychiatrists who have become strong opponents to the expansion of clinical psychology, which has moved from a "metric" or assessment type profession, like optometry, to one of dx, tx, and expanded clinical practice.

My point is, if you're an OD, so be it. Unless you go to medical school, you're not a physician no matter what any dictionary tells you. I'm sorry, but you're not. If you're an OD, no residency program is going to teach you surgery. It's not a safe or logical way of educating surgeons. You need to be a physician first, then a surgeon. Optometry school simply does not produce physicians or surgeons. No state should allow an OD to operate on anyone.

Podiatrists and dentists are trained in a different manner than ODs, so there is no basis for comparison. Plus, the argument that DDSs and DPMs can perform surgery without a medical degree, so ODs should be able to as well is immature and presumptious. At any rate, I think we should be happy with who and what we are, and if we're not, then do something about it. I know many physicians who were dissatisfied with medicine, so they went back to school to get a PhD, JD, MBA, or other advanced degree so they can leave medicine and do something else.

 

[JR]

Bravo! Great post!

 

[Ben Chudner]

This thread was dead for four months until Bizarro decided to revive it. Let it die. Zack, your arguements are the same ones we have been hearing over and over again. Get on with your life and let this topic die. Both the OD and the OMD forums were going back to a place where students could get info about their respective professions. Let's go back to that because I am tired of hearing this kind of rhetoric.

Seriously, man, get a life.