ortho isn't competitive?

[juniordentist]

Everyone talks about ortho being so competitive, but looking at the 2020 match statistics, ortho (1.5) is in line with most specialties ( Ratio of “Acceptable Applicants” Per Position Offered 1.2 1.2 1.5 1.3 1.3 1.7 1.3 1.4 1.5 ), and in fact perio (1.7) is the hardest to get into... am i missing something? is it just that the applicants for ortho are generally stronger?

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[deleted972255]

Everyone talks about ortho being so competitive, but looking at the 2020 match statistics, ortho (1.5) is in line with most specialties ( Ratio of “Acceptable Applicants” Per Position Offered 1.2 1.2 1.5 1.3 1.3 1.7 1.3 1.4 1.5 ), and in fact perio (1.7) is the hardest to get into... am i missing something? is it just that the applicants for ortho are generally stronger?

Interest in Ortho has dropped a little over the years, since salaries have dropped a little-mostly due to Invisalign and direct to consumer companies like SmileDirect stealing market share. Its still pretty competitive, just not as much as before. Still need a high rank for a good chance.

 

[Ivy.ch]

Ortho screens out most applicants before they reach the point of submitting applications. Same with OMS.

 

[Ivy.ch]

I'm not at that point yet, but I am definitely interested in applying for either. Can you elaborate on what they screen you out based on?

If you’re at the 50th percentile in rank, and you ask for letters to apply to Ortho, you’re going to get some looks, maybe an honest conversation about your chances, and they may even just flat out refuse to write a letter.

For surgery, you will need a letter from your home program’s director, who will also give you an honest evaluation of your chances. Plus, once you take the CBSE, you may quickly realize you have a 0% chance of matching if you don’t get a good score. The average exam score is around a 55, which will only match you with intern years to your name.

 

[deleted972255]

If you’re at the 50th percentile in rank, and you ask for letters to apply to Ortho, you’re going to get some looks, maybe an honest conversation about your chances, and they may even just flat out refuse to write a letter.

For surgery, you will need a letter from your home program’s director, who will also give you an honest evaluation of your chances. Plus, once you take the CBSE, you may quickly realize you have a 0% chance of matching if you don’t get a good score. The average exam score is around a 55, which will only match you with intern years to your name.

I never got a letter from my PD, just from my school's OMFS chair, but its the same concept essentially. I agree, need at least high 60s to have a fighting chance to match. Probably need 70+ if you're aiming for a 6 yr program. These days 80+ scores are becoming more and more common.

 

[wannagiveup]

good luck getting ortho interviews if you are outside of top 10

only three people in my class matched to ortho last year. they were all top ten and were the three highest ranked applicants among those who applied from my school. one ortho applicant was even OKU but still couldn't get in.

 

[Ivy.ch]

Echoing what @Ivy.ch said, you are screened out if you aren't competitive enough. Minnesota, for example, had over 300 applications and only interviewed 26ish people. BU had over 400 applicants.

My point was that the screening happens long before one ever presses “submit” on their PASS app. But you are also correct that getting an invite at any program is ridiculously challenging for some specialities. VCU had hundreds and hundreds apply (300+ or something crazy like that) and they interviewed 16 for 3 spots. That’s an extreme case, but it gets the point across. 50% of applicants who go through everything and do everything right won’t match, which is mind-boggling and terrifying.

 

[Anondds87]

Echoing what @Ivy.ch said, you are screened out if you aren't competitive enough. Minnesota, for example, had over 300 applications and only interviewed 26ish people. BU had over 400 applicants.

But are these 300 applications applying to all the schools?
Overall the stats are something like 500 applicants for 300 spots nationwide, so 300 people aren't really applying for 3 spots

 

[deleted972255]

But are these 300 applications applying to all the schools?
Overall the stats are something like 500 applicants for 300 spots nationwide, so 300 people aren't really applying for 3 spots

Its 230ish spots, not 300. Last year about 430 people who got at least 1 interview applied for OMFS (they submitted a rank list).
Pretty much, of those who got at least 1 interview, only 50% matched. That is very competitive. Its expected to be even worse this year, with more people applying due to the pandemic.

 

[mmc12]

Applicants with lower stats can take their shots at the Georgia School of Orthodontics. They are expanding their class size to 36 a year.

 

[Anondds87]

Its 230ish spots, not 300. Last year about 430 people who got at least 1 interview applied for OMFS (they submitted a rank list).
Pretty much, of those who got at least 1 interview, only 50% matched. That is very competitive. Its expected to be even worse this year, with more people applying due to the pandemic.

So what exactly are the match numbers referring to? Is it just people who get interviews? And not the original amount of people applying?

 

[deleted972255]

So what exactly are the match numbers referring to? Is it just people who get interviews? And not the original amount of people applying?

Correct, those counted as applying to MATCH only includes those who got interviews (at least one), because the count that MATCH releases is only for those who submitted rank lists. You cannot submit a rank list if you got no interviews.
So, in reality, the number who applied is even more than the number you see released from MATCH.

 

[Anondds87]

Correct, those counted as applying to MATCH only includes those who got interviews (at least one), because the count that MATCH releases is only for those who submitted rank lists. You cannot submit a rank list if you got no interviews.
So, in reality, the number who applied is even more than the number you see released from MATCH.

Ohhh ok that explains it!

 

[fit2]

If you’re at the 50th percentile in rank, and you ask for letters to apply to Ortho, you’re going to get some looks, maybe an honest conversation about your chances, and they may even just flat out refuse to write a letter.

For surgery, you will need a letter from your home program’s director, who will also give you an honest evaluation of your chances. Plus, once you take the CBSE, you may quickly realize you have a 0% chance of matching if you don’t get a good score. The average exam score is around a 55, which will only match you with intern years to your name.

My orthodontist was below 50% but he did know some people on ortho board that gave him nice letter AND this was maybe 2 decades ago things might have gotten harder. He had a bunch of research and an interesting path to dentistry and he’s extremely intelligent. Any way I guess you never know but youre right it would be soooo hard to make in ortho or surgery or endo with 50%

 

[dentistrydmd]

Everyone talks about ortho being so competitive, but looking at the 2020 match statistics, ortho (1.5) is in line with most specialties ( Ratio of “Acceptable Applicants” Per Position Offered 1.2 1.2 1.5 1.3 1.3 1.7 1.3 1.4 1.5 ), and in fact perio (1.7) is the hardest to get into... am i missing something? is it just that the applicants for ortho are generally stronger?

You're missing something... The number of those submitting rankings may not necessarily have to do with the competitiveness of programs. This may be due to several factors including that some programs may have interviewed more applicants meaning there were more people submitting rankings. In many programs such as ortho or OMFS, many applicants don't even make it to the interview stage (and these won't show up on the match statistics).

 

[dentistrydmd]

Here's a document from a couple of years ago from the ADEA which gives a better picture.

 

[deleted972255]

Here's a document from a couple of years ago from the ADEA which gives a better picture.

Something is not right about this figure-the numbers don't add up. So you're saying 10,000 people apply for OMFS in a typical year? I don't think that's correct or even possible, because previous figures released by AAOMS reveal that only about 300-400 people take CBSE each date its offered, and its only offered 2x a year.

Also, I don't even think Ortho has ever even offered 375 spots for MATCH. According to the stats here:

Dental Match | Statistics of the Match

natmatch.com

Ortho has never even offered more than 332 spots (this is from 2021).

This figure seems inaccurate and incorrect.

 

[LegendaryPanda]

Something is not right about this figure-the numbers don't add up. So you're saying 10,000 people apply for OMFS in a typical year? I don't think that's correct or even possible, because previous figures released by AAOMS reveal that only about 300-400 people take CBSE each date its offered, and its only offered 2x a year.

Also, I don't even think Ortho has ever even offered 375 spots for MATCH. According to the stats here:

Dental Match | Statistics of the Match

natmatch.com

Ortho has never even offered more than 332 spots (this is from 2021).

This figure seems inaccurate and incorrect.

I think it is correct because it said 10k applications, not applicants. It most likely points to that every person sends out ~20 applications which sounds about right as per applicants on SDN.

 

[deleted972255]

I think it is correct because it said 10k applications, not applicants. It most likely points to that every person sends out ~20 applications which sounds about right as per applicants on SDN.

Ahhh, yes that makes more sense.

 

[dentistrydmd]

Ortho has never even offered more than 332 spots (this is from 2021).

This figure seems inaccurate and incorrect.

What about the total match + non-match spots (match statistics would not be relevant in this case). This is from the ADEA, so I would be very surprised if it wasn't accurate. Although things may have changed this year with the significant increase in applications due to Covid-19.

 

[Anondds87]

So with the 10,000 applications for ortho, if we assume each person has 20 applications, then that basically means 500 applicants, for 330 spots.
Which is pretty much exactly what is being reported as a ratio of 1.5 applicants per spot...
It really doesn't seem as tough as everyone makes it out to be, the numbers are inflated by so many people having multiple applications

 

[dentistrydmd]

So with the 10,000 applications for ortho, if we assume each person has 20 applications, then that basically means 500 applicants, for 330 spots.
Which is pretty much exactly what is being reported as a ratio of 1.5 applicants per spot...
It really doesn't seem as tough as everyone makes it out to be, the numbers are inflated by so many people having multiple applications

I'm not sure you can assume everyone is applying to 20 places. I don't know many people who have applied to that many places. I think the average number of applications is probably in the vicinity of 5-6 per applicant.

 

[deleted972255]

I'm not sure you can assume everyone is applying to 20 places. I don't know many people who have applied to that many places. I think the average number of applications is probably in the vicinity of 5-6 per applicant.

Hmm from what I've seen the average is closer to around 15. At least that's what happened with people at my school-they all applied to roughly 15 programs.

 

[Likkriue]

Ortho went from 455 in the match to 580, an increase of about 25% this year due to the pandemic. I can easily omfs doing the same, since it’s such a highly sought out specialty.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Ortho went from 455 in the match to 580, an increase of about 25% this year due to the pandemic. I can easily omfs doing the same, since it’s such a highly sought out specialty.

Don’t worry, the Georgia School of Orthodontics will just continue to increase their class size to accommodate all of them.

Big Hoss

 

[yappy]

Ortho went from 455 in the match to 580, an increase of about 25% this year due to the pandemic. I can easily omfs doing the same, since it’s such a highly sought out specialty.

I'm not saying that OMFS is a bad specialty, but I don't know if it's "highly sought out". Most people who graduate dental school don't want to be OMS. Aren't the applicants/acceptance pretty much 50:50? I think I knew 3 people in my whole class who actually applied. One didn't know the IAN was a branch of the mandibular division of the trigeminal as a D3 and actually got into a program lol.

EDIT: I mean roughly half are accepted and half are rejected.

 

[deleted972255]

I'm not saying that OMFS is a bad specialty, but I don't know if it's "highly sought out". Most people who graduate dental school don't want to be OMS. Aren't the applicants/acceptance pretty much 50:50? I think I knew 3 people in my whole class who actually applied. One didn't know the IAN was a branch of the mandibular division of the trigeminal as a D3 and actually got into a program lol.

This is mostly true, most people that come to dental school are more interested in quality of life over income. A lot of people who come to dental school could have gone MD or DO but chose not to due to increased amount of responsibility, stress, etc. Hence why not that many people apply to OMFS. Nonetheless, I think we will see an increase (albeit a smaller one than with Ortho and Prosth, etc.) just because more people are aiming to do residencies this year in general due to COVID. I think there will only be about a 10% inc.

Expect to see a huge jump in number of people applying Pedo. I'm guessing a 20-30% jump, like what happened with Ortho.

Pedo salaries are very good, job availability is plentiful, residency is only 2 years, and most programs pay a stipend and charge no tuition. Its a great deal honestly, if you can handle the patient population.

 

[Likkriue]

I'm not saying that OMFS is a bad specialty, but I don't know if it's "highly sought out". Most people who graduate dental school don't want to be OMS. Aren't the applicants/acceptance pretty much 50:50? I think I knew 3 people in my whole class who actually applied. One didn't know the IAN was a branch of the mandibular division of the trigeminal as a D3 and actually got into a program lol.

Based on statistics, it was 420 applicants participating in the match for 230 spots last year. So idk what you mean by 50:50. These stats don’t include people not participating in the match. The ratio here was basically only worst compared to one other specialty and that was perio.
Most people who graduate dental school *dont want to take the cbse* is what you meant.
In fact they did a poll on dental nachos about which specialty most graduate dentists wish they had gone into, it was OMS that led the pack.

 

[dentistrydmd]

This is mostly true, most people that come to dental school are more interested in quality of life over income. A lot of people who come to dental school could have gone MD or DO but chose not to due to increased amount of responsibility, stress, etc. Hence why not that many people apply to OMFS. Nonetheless, I think we will see an increase (albeit a smaller one than with Ortho and Prosth, etc.) just because more people are aiming to do residencies this year in general due to COVID. I think there will only be about a 10% inc.

Expect to see a huge jump in number of people applying Pedo. I'm guessing a 20-30% jump, like what happened with Ortho.

Pedo salaries are very good, job availability is plentiful, residency is only 2 years, and most programs pay a stipend and charge no tuition. Its a great deal honestly, if you can handle the patient population.

I think it will be much higher than 10% in terms of number of applications since there is less of a limitation of visiting program/travel now with Zoom interviews. Just anecdotal, but ortho, endo, and prostho programs I have heard were seeing 3x the number of applications this year (many new grads applying due to tough job market, as well as practicing dentists etc.). I actually think that OMFS will have a smaller increase than expected because there is a limitation of the CBSE, though for sure applicants will cast a wider net this time around due to no cost of travel for interviews.

 

[deleted972255]

I think it will be much higher than 10% in terms of number of applications since there is less of a limitation of visiting program/travel now with Zoom interviews. Just anecdotal, but ortho, endo, and prostho programs I have heard were seeing 3x the number of applications this year (many new grads applying due to tough job market, as well as practicing dentists etc.). I actually think that OMFS will have a smaller increase than expected because there is a limitation of the CBSE, though for sure applicants will cast a wider net this time around due to no cost of travel for interviews.

When I say 10%, I am referring to the number of people applying, not the number of individual applications. I agree that number of applications will go up a lot because everyone is applying to a higher number of programs on average. But the actual number of people, I think will not increase much. A lot of people do not want to study for the CBSE because most schools don't prepare them well for it. Even for people who do have the ambition to study for the CBSE, a lot simply cannot score high enough to have a solidly competitive score (75-80+).

 

[yappy]

When I say 10%, I am referring to the number of people applying, not the number of individual applications. I agree that number of applications will go up a lot because everyone is applying to a higher number of programs on average. But the actual number of people, I think will not increase much. A lot of people do not want to study for the CBSE because most schools don't prepare them well for it. Even for people who do have the ambition to study for the CBSE, a lot simply cannot score high enough to have a solidly competitive score (75-80+).

I agree with your predictions; however, I think that if someone is not willing to study for the CBSE to score well then they don't really want to do OMS.

 

[dentistrydmd]

When I say 10%, I am referring to the number of people applying, not the number of individual applications. I agree that number of applications will go up a lot because everyone is applying to a higher number of programs on average. But the actual number of people, I think will not increase much. A lot of people do not want to study for the CBSE because most schools don't prepare them well for it. Even for people who do have the ambition to study for the CBSE, a lot simply cannot score high enough to have a solidly competitive score (75-80+).

Gotcha. I still think the increase of applicants will be more than 10%, because of the new grads not having jobs/young dentists deciding to make the jump to specialize in the current environment.

 

[deleted972255]

Gotcha. I still think the increase of applicants will be more than 10%, because of the new grads not having jobs/young dentists deciding to make the jump to specialize in the current environment.

Yeah, could be, we'll see in about 2 months.

 

[paamp]

Yeah, could be, we'll see in about 2 months.

Hey could I PM you? current D1@UB

 

[blablabla1]

good luck getting ortho interviews if you are outside of top 10

only three people in my class matched to ortho last year. they were all top ten and were the three highest ranked applicants among those who applied from my school. one ortho applicant was even OKU but still couldn't get in.

I'm a little late to the convo but i think this attitude is very defeating and not productive. People shouldn't be discouraged from applying to ortho if they're not in the top 10-15% of their class. It just leads to an unnecessary amount of stress hearing it over and over again, and I'm speaking from experience. I really wish I tuned out the SDN armchair experts my few years of dental school and didn't let it stress me out as much as it did. Luckily I kept my head up, but I do know some people who did not and ended up giving up on it due to constantly being told they had little to no chance.

I was just outside of the top 35% in my class this past ortho cycle and got 5 interviews and matched to a 2 year state school. And that was without applying to any non-match schools or "pay to play" schools like Jacksonville and GSO.

I've known other people from my school in previous years get interviews to ortho programs with ranks in the mid 20s to low 30s and ultimately match.

My point is, rank only tells a part of the story. It is undoubtedly still the most important factor in determining whether you get an interview or not, but ultimately the application process is holistic. Recommendations, personal statement, GRE scores, extracurriculars, and research all make a big difference. If your GPA is around a 3.7 to 3.75 and you have a well-rounded application, your chance of getting interviews and matching are still good. It's just a matter of applying smartly and widely.

 

[blablabla1]

My point was that the screening happens long before one ever presses “submit” on their PASS app. But you are also correct that getting an invite at any program is ridiculously challenging for some specialities. VCU had hundreds and hundreds apply (300+ or something crazy like that) and they interviewed 16 for 3 spots. That’s an extreme case, but it gets the point across. 50% of applicants who go through everything and do everything right won’t match, which is mind-boggling and terrifying.

They actually interviewed 31 for 4 spots. I remember the program director mentioning about 15-20% more applications this past year which would be around 230 applications this year.