***Oversupply of Pharmacists***

[Tinkerbell22]

I went to prom, got dumped there, and went home after about 35 minutes.

Was awesome.

Opps we posted at the same time...

Looks like things turned out better for you now anyway! lol

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[Passion4Sci]

Opps we posted at the same time...

Looks like things turned out better for you now anyway! lol

Yea, I was kinda bothered by it at that time but now it's like, meh.

 

[Its Z]

I went twice... junior prom and senior prom.. I pray my mom will never ever publicly diplay those pictures.

 

[weetzie00]

i dont even know anymore. this school is one of the five oldest in the country (est. 1920's) and it FELT like a diploma mill. man, i'm feeling the like "PharmD" in general is just a sick, sick joke.

That school opens this year... what do you mean fifth oldest...

 

[genesis09]

That school opens this year... what do you mean fifth oldest...

UIC COP is either the 5th or 6th oldest pharmacy school in the country, and it was founded in 1859. The oldest school is Philadelphia.

 

[Ava999]

No. It's a stupid school dance.

In my case, its the only school dance my school has. Oh well.

 

[weetzie00]

UIC COP is either the 5th or 6th oldest pharmacy school in the country, and it was founded in 1859. The oldest school is Philadelphia.

Yeah, but he was referring to University of Maryland Eastern Shore... which is definitely not the 5th oldest lol. Unless he's referring to University of Maryland Baltimore, which is the 4th oldest... UMES and UMB are not the same school.

 

[Ava999]

I didn't go to the prom either. Reason was I didn't want to shell out $400 for the fees and the tuxedo. Unless you have a small core of good friends you always hang out with and they will all be going, then it's a waste.

Day of the prom, me and most of my friends cut school and went to Six Flags, Dave and Busters, and snuck into places where 17 and 18 year olds shouldn't be going.

Lmao...
I'm known as the "good" one. Can't wait till August though.

 

[weetzie00]

BTW, this was really weird, but I was looking at UMD-Eastern Shore's Pharmacy website (not that I would ever consider applying there -- I once worked with an alum of the UG school and he wasn't the sharpest knife in the kitchen), and the picture on there looked crazy familiar. They either copied or just bought the rights to the same stock photo that Kaplan uses for their Getting into Pharmacy School guide. It's pretty hilarious.

Omg you're right. That's hilarious! They even edited in the school logo onto the collars of their white jackets.

 

[tungsten87]

Yeah, but he was referring to University of Maryland Eastern Shore... which is definitely not the 5th oldest lol. Unless he's referring to University of Maryland Baltimore, which is the 4th oldest... UMES and UMB are not the same school.

i never said i was referring to UMaryland Eastern Shore?

 

[weetzie00]

i never said i was referring to UMaryland Eastern Shore?

Oh my bad. You were responding to the post that mentioned UMES. So when you said "This school", I drew to the conclusion you were talking about UMES.

 

[tungsten87]

Oh my bad. You were responding to the post that mentioned UMES. So when you said "This school", I drew to the conclusion you were talking about UMES.

oh, sorry for the confusion. I was referring to a university I interviewed at that is NOT UMES.

 

[adma826]

Don't be scared, but like Z said, know what you're getting into.

There's really no field right now that is truly safe. With a BS in a biological science, if you decide not to do pharm, there are other options like CLS, industrial chemist, dentistry, optometry, podiatry, etc... Not that any of them are in any better shape, of course.

Right now, anything is a risk. The problem is you'll need to weigh possible debt with possible job. If you get your Pharm.D @ 185k, you'll be under the gun a lot more than someone who got it for 80k.

CLS is my primary back up plan if I don't get accepted at the one Pharm program to which I will apply next cycle. (can't move for school - husband is active duty and we have 4 kids). I am looking at USN - $40K per yr x 3 yrs vs. UNLV (for CLS) about $10k(I think?) per year x 2 yrs. Obviously CLS(MTs) make less than Pharmacists but I can pay tuition for the CLS program out of pocket pretty much. Its less scary. With great risk comes great reward and vice versa. I don't think I could easily turn down the opportunity if offered a spot in the program but I think I may develop an ulcer worrying about future employment and $120K in loans. I have no clue how flexible I will be able to be after graduation - my husband will be eligible for retirement around the same time but that means nothing as his field currently offers enormous bonuses to stay in past 20 yrs (which of course could be long gone by then).

Of course CLS is one of the more confusing fields for outlook - on one hand, you hear programs are closing b/c there are not enough students and also that there is 100% employment of new grads and on the other hand you hear current CLS(MTs) complaining that MLTs are being used more and more to save money, and that budget cuts will hit the lab hard in the coming years.

Like someone else said, there is no field out there in health care that has not been affected and has an uncertain future as far as employability/return on investment goes.

 

[klie94]

When you all talk about an oversupply of pharmacists, are you talking about pharmacists seeking retail jobs?

I feel like there are so many things that you can do with a Pharm D. Maybe the concern about oversupply is due to limiting the scope of what you can do with the degree?

 

[Passion4Sci]

When you all talk about an oversupply of pharmacists, are you talking about pharmacists seeking retail jobs?

I feel like there are so many things that you can do with a Pharm D. Maybe the concern about oversupply is due to limiting the scope of what you can do with the degree?

No, it has to do more or less with all facets of pharmacy.

It's just a "general" surplus in a lot of areas... but there are a lot of places where there are still jobs.

The Pharm.D is versatile, you're thinking correctly. Hell, grab a Master's in Biology or Chemistry, and presto-chango, you're a pretty good CC teacher (And here in Calif, they make almost astonishingly good money).

Lots of options... Stay the course.

 

[klie94]

I didn't really go into this thinking I'd be guaranteed a job. I think it's because I've worked in other industries, and I know how hard it can be to get a job, especially when you're not creative and don't market your skills well. Thanks for the response!

 

[crazybob]

In this area of my home state, I see

• 14 Wal-Mart pharmacies
• 16 Kroger pharmacies
• 17 Walgreens pharmacies
• 6 Medicine Shoppe pharmacies
• 10 USA Drug pharmacies

There are independents, but just from the retail pharmacies, that's 63.

If every one of those stores had a position, 63 of the graduates could find a job without relocating, and drive less than an hour to get to work. Since only some of the pharmacies would have positions for a pharmacist, only a percentage of the 63 pharmacies would hire someone.

In a graduating class of 100 students, if most of them stay and the number of graduates staying is about 40, then you'd have to rely on 2/3 of the stores having an opening for a pharmacist.

If only 1/2 of the stores had openings, then you can see where some people might have trouble finding jobs.

 

[Passion4Sci]

Not counting hospitals, home infusion services, independents, and such.

 

[klie94]

In this area of my home state, I see

• 14 Wal-Mart pharmacies
• 16 Kroger pharmacies
• 17 Walgreens pharmacies
• 6 Medicine Shoppe pharmacies
• 10 USA Drug pharmacies

There are independents, but just from the retail pharmacies, that's 63.

If every one of those stores had a position, 63 of the graduates could find a job without relocating, and drive less than an hour to get to work. Since only some of the pharmacies would have positions for a pharmacist, only a percentage of the 63 pharmacies would hire someone.

In a graduating class of 100 students, if most of them stay and the number of graduates staying is about 40, then you'd have to rely on 2/3 of the stores having an opening for a pharmacist.

If only 1/2 of the stores had openings, then you can see where some people might have trouble finding jobs.

That's kind of my point. There are tons of other things you can do with a Pharm D other than what you listed. Healthcare consulting, hospital, nuclear, compound...

 

[confettiflyer]

That's kind of my point. There are tons of other things you can do with a Pharm D other than what you listed. Healthcare consulting, hospital, nuclear, compound...

oversupply puts pressure on everybody...look at it this way:

retail pharms no longer handing out jobs like candy --> students then opt to go into residency (see: latest statistics from ASHP) --> that gets gunked up, students then look for alternate jobs (hospital, infusion, nuclear, etc...) --> existing practitioners in those fields now subject to oversupply pressure.

it's not like retail is a silo, if one area is full, new pharmD's would look at other places. the real trick is geographic diversity...so find a job where no one wants to live, like where crazybob is from (no offense).

 

[MountainPharmD]

In this area of my home state, I see

• 14 Wal-Mart pharmacies
• 16 Kroger pharmacies
• 17 Walgreens pharmacies
• 6 Medicine Shoppe pharmacies
• 10 USA Drug pharmacies

There are independents, but just from the retail pharmacies, that's 63.

If every one of those stores had a position, 63 of the graduates could find a job without relocating, and drive less than an hour to get to work. Since only some of the pharmacies would have positions for a pharmacist, only a percentage of the 63 pharmacies would hire someone.

In a graduating class of 100 students, if most of them stay and the number of graduates staying is about 40, then you'd have to rely on 2/3 of the stores having an opening for a pharmacist.

If only 1/2 of the stores had openings, then you can see where some people might have trouble finding jobs.

We are at the point where none of them have any openings.

 

[pallywally]

rx4life2004 posted some articles in the other thread that didn't look really legitimate, but I found this one in which a professor and director of the Office of Practice Development and Education at the School of Pharmacy, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill expresses concern about the oversupply of pharmacists.

You know what I would do if I were insane with anxiety about it? Call up a CVS recruiter and ask him/her straight up. I'm sure they'll feel sympathy and give you the 411 on current projections through the next few years for chain pharmacy expansion and pharmacist hiring. Alternately, you could look at some of the analyst reports on CVS/Walgreens, et al projections and take a gander at guessing from that and what you think that means for you and your plans.

http://www.pharmacytimes.com/issue/pharmacy/2009/2009-04/2009-04-10223

 

[ChemistWiz]

thank you for the help. its nice to know to not worry, what do you experienced say about a 4 year degree besides what you said already? Do you think pharmacy schools with a 4 year requirement are better to graduate from? I understand some of my friends in class interested in Pharmacy consider Ferris state because its easy to get into. My big deal is that it seems like that will get wiped out (easy schools I mean) Ferris's pharmacy program is very well known in michigan and its been around for a long time but would it be smart going there knowing that its a 3.5 year school and pharmacy is leaning toward 4 years and knowing that its curriculum isn't exactly like most pharmacy schools, though its still accredited.

I think this whole surplus idea has put us all into a fear of where to go, how to get there, and making us second guess ourselves. I like to think im lucky in knowing that I love the idea of being a pharmacist, having the knowledge of all the chemical complexities of drugs and how they interact, I like that thought of knowing that I'm "valuable", if you will, to not only the general community but the intellectual one as well.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Dean at USC and world renowned pharmacist, Joe DiPiro:

There was talk of a shortage of pharmacists in South Carolina and across the nation, but such a shortage has been hard to quantify.

And DiPiro is not sure it exists anymore.

It is not what it was a couple of years ago, DiPiro said, noting that five new pharmacy schools have opened recently in Tennessee, with additional schools opening in North Carolina and Georgia.

DiPiro said the economic downturn has led to business and health care cutbacks that have lessened the demand for pharmacists.

"It has changed dramatically within the last few years," he said. "Demand is about equal to supply."

That was in 2009.

Yeah...its all just g r e a t....

 

[Passion4Sci]

Like every other profession... and while they all don't have big tuition bills associated with them, many do.

Just need to make sure this is definitely what you want...

 

[pallywally]

Like every other profession... and while they all don't have big tuition bills associated with them, many do.

Just need to make sure this is definitely what you want...

Exactly. If you don't have what it takes to dedicate yourself to finding a job in this field, and it's not something you want to do, it's not likely you'll do well in the field.

And I'm sure our lobbying against mail order pharmacies might just help. And then we just spread some bad PR against the new pharm schools and no one will go to those and they'll close. And we can lobby against foreign trained pharmacists too. Anybody know a Congressman and a journalist with some influence and a knack for good investigative reporting?

 

[pallywally]

]Dean at USC and world renowned pharmacist, Joe DiPiro:

World renowned pharmacist? Really? How do you become "world renowned" as a pharmacist? Just by publishing a handbook or textbooks or papers? I can imagine being a world renowned cardiologist or neurosurgeon or even pharmacologist, but pharmacist? And if he's so great, why is he the dean at South Carolina and not, say, UIC's pharmacy school?

Usually the "world renowned" types don't have hastily typed in profiles on LinkedIn either. Though I'm sure his publications are awesome.

 

[Praziquantel86]

World renowned pharmacist? Really? How do you become "world renowned" as a pharmacist? Just by publishing a handbook or textbooks or papers? I can imagine being a world renowned cardiologist or neurosurgeon or even pharmacologist, but pharmacist? And if he's so great, why is he the dean at South Carolina and not, say, UIC's pharmacy school?

Usually the "world renowned" types don't have hastily typed in profiles on LinkedIn either. Though I'm sure his publications are awesome.

Really? That's one of the more idiotic things I've seen posted here.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Though I'm sure his publications are awesome.

God, pre-pharmers are clueless.

Diprio is the chief editor of the most widely used pharmacotherapy textbook in the world.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Really? That's one of the more idiotic things I've seen posted here.

Indeed. I actually now realize it was sarcasm and I feel dumb.

Unless they actually were being serious...which would be pity worthy.

 

[carbox]

Indeed. I actually now realize it was sarcasm and I feel dumb.

Unless they actually were being serious...which would be pity worthy.

When I first read it I thought "*****" as well....So I doubt there was sarcasm, just stupid pre-pharms. oh god I can't wait to see this site in 4 or 5 years ha

 

[pallywally]

God, pre-pharmers are clueless.

Diprio is the chief editor of the most widely used pharmacotherapy textbook in the world.

Why do you keep posting in the pre-pharmacy forum then, if you have such disdain towards us?

Think about it, "world renowned" pharmacist. You know who they were calling "world-reowned" when you hastily borrowed that phrase from a press release? A physician. Get it? You can be a world-renowned researcher or scientist (like a pharmacologist), but it's highly unlikely that someone is "world-renowned" in certain professions.

It helps to be articulate and speak/write precisely, especially if you're a pharmacist looking for a job.

 

[Praziquantel86]

Why do you keep posting in the pre-pharmacy forum then, if you have such disdain towards us?

Think about it, "world renowned" pharmacist. You know who they were calling "world-reowned" when you hastily borrowed that phrase from a press release? A physician. Get it? You can be a world-renowned researcher or scientist (like a pharmacologist), but it's highly unlikely that someone is "world-renowned" in certain professions.

It helps to be articulate and speak/write precisely, especially if you're a pharmacist looking for a job.

And thus ends pharmacy as a respectable profession.

 

[Passion4Sci]

OK, maybe I absolutely suck at reading comprehension, but I cannot find "world renowned" anywhere in that article at all.

I think Mikey added that on, or something.

 

[pallywally]

OK, maybe I absolutely suck at reading comprehension, but I cannot find "world renowned" anywhere in that article at all.

I think Mikey added that on, or something.

Yeah, he did. And it's not the right adjective or usage. He could have said "pharmacist and world renowned researcher/author," but he doesn't really get what's wrong with the idea of being a "world renowned pharmacist." Even "author of the world renowned pharmacotherapy textbook" would make sense. Even "renowned" would have been okay, but "world renowned pharmacist"? No.

 

[Praziquantel86]

Yeah, he did. And it's not the right adjective or usage. He could have said "pharmacist and world renowned researcher/author," but he doesn't really get what's wrong with the idea of being a "world renowned pharmacist." Even "author of the world renowned pharmacotherapy textbook" would make sense. Even "renowned" would have been okay, but "world renowned pharmacist"? No.

He is a pharmacist, first and foremost. Why would his title be misrepresented? He is world-renowned, therefore, he is a world-renowned pharmacist.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Why do you keep posting in the pre-pharmacy forum then, if you have such disdain towards us?

Let me correct myself. Pre-pharmers that have no idea what they are talking about, yet blather on in pointless, inaccurate tangents are annoying.

Think about it, "world renowned" pharmacist. You know who they were calling "world-reowned" when you hastily borrowed that phrase from a press release? A physician. Get it? You can be a world-renowned researcher or scientist (like a pharmacologist), but it's highly unlikely that someone is "world-renowned" in certain professions.

He is renowned in pharmacy circles. Note the amount of pharmacy students posting after you calling you out for ignorance.

Dipiro is probably the most well known pharmacist there is. Simply because he edits Pharmacotherapy. Go ask a pharmacist who Dipiro is. They'll tell you he's "the dude that wrote that giant NYC phonebook looking thing" at the very least. If they don't know who he is, then I'd wager they know who Koda-Kimble is.

It helps to be articulate and speak/write precisely, especially if you're a pharmacist looking for a job.

So you think I'm not very articulate? Shush, you pretentious schmuck. I's the most articulate hilljack in my trailer park.

 

[pallywally]

He is a pharmacist, first and foremost. Why would his title be misrepresented? He is world-renowned, therefore, he is a world-renowned pharmacist.

Because he's not world renowned for being a pharmacist. You are world renowned for being an expert on a certain subject. You don't say "world renowned accountant" because the breadth of the field is too large. You would say "world renowned expert on Costa Rican tax havens." What that guy precisely is is a "world renowned expert on pharmacotherapeutics." You don't say "world renowned doctor," you say "world renowned cardiologist" or neurologist. Saying someone is a "world renowned pharmacist" doesn't precisely describe what the person's specialty is, or what he's actually famous for.

He's not an expert on all things pharmacy. He's a specialist, which is why he's admirable in the first place.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Yeah, he did. And it's not the right adjective or usage. He could have said "pharmacist and world renowned researcher/author," but he doesn't really get what's wrong with the idea of being a "world renowned pharmacist." Even "author of the world renowned pharmacotherapy textbook" would make sense. Even "renowned" would have been okay, but "world renowned pharmacist"? No.

Really? What do you do for fun? Attach paperclips together in strings of 1,000? Write books on people that collect stamps?

What possesses a person to argue about something as pointless as the semantics concerning the mechanism behind which a respected, well known person is respected and well known?

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Because he's not world renowned for being a pharmacist. You are world renowned for being an expert on a certain subject. You don't say "world renowned accountant" because the breadth of the field is too large. You would say "world renowned expert on Costa Rican tax havens." What that guy precisely is is a "world renowned expert on pharmacotherapeutics." You don't say "world renowned doctor," you say "world renowned cardiologist" or neurologist. Saying someone is a "world renowned pharmacist" doesn't precisely describe what the person's specialty is, or what he's actually famous for.

He's not an expert on all things pharmacy. He's a specialist, which is why he's admirable in the first place.

Lmao. Just admit that you were wrong and presumptuous about the guy. You are embarrassing yourself.

 

[Praziquantel86]

Because he's not world renowned for being a pharmacist. You are world renowned for being an expert on a certain subject. You don't say "world renowned accountant" because the breadth of the field is too large. You would say "world renowned expert on Costa Rican tax havens." What that guy precisely is is a "world renowned expert on pharmacotherapeutics." You don't say "world renowned doctor," you say "world renowned cardiologist" or neurologist. Saying someone is a "world renowned pharmacist" doesn't precisely describe what the person's specialty is, or what he's actually famous for.

He's not an expert on all things pharmacy. He's a specialist, which is why he's admirable in the first place.

His expertise actually goes well beyond simply being an editor of the textbook in pharmacy. He's renowned in pharmacy education circles, clinical pharmacy circles, and yes, as a pharmacist. Pharmacist clearly describes all these things, and is perfect to use.

This is a ridiculous debate to be having.

 

[pallywally]

Let me correct myself. Pre-pharmers that have no idea what they are talking about, yet blather on in pointless, inaccurate tangents are annoying.

Good job! You do a good job when you remember to use your words.

So you think I'm not very articulate? Shush, you pretentious schmuck. I's the most articulate hilljack in my trailer park.

I have no doubt that you are. I have to go back to advising the maid on how to properly stack the Wedgewood china. Had a hell of a day. All the boys from the Bethesda Harvard club were over earlier in the evening with their trophy wives, and we drove our Jaguars down to the Potomac and sculled over to our secret country club. I'm exhausted now.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

His expertise actually goes well beyond simply being an editor of the textbook in pharmacy. He's renowned in pharmacy education circles, clinical pharmacy circles, and yes, as a pharmacist. Pharmacist clearly describes all these things, and is perfect to use.

This is a ridiculous debate to be having.

Ok, how about this. DiPiro is the executive editor of the American Journal of Pharmaceutical Education. As such, he is renowned within the circles of pharmacy education as, you guessed it, an expert on pharmacy education.

And within the course of his operation as a Dean at an established and respected school of pharmacy and as the executive editor of a major pharmacy education journal, he has noted that the pharmacist job market is becoming tighter and tighter.

Is that cool? Any correction needed, there, whatever your screen name is?

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Good job! You do a good job when you remember to use your words.

I have no doubt that you are. I have to go back to advising the maid on how to properly stack the Wedgewood china. Had a hell of a day. All the boys from the Bethesda Harvard club were over earlier in the evening with their trophy wives, and we drove our Jaguars down to the Potomac and sculled over to our secret country club. I'm exhausted now.

Haha...it's funny because you're not as clever as me.

 

[MountainPharmD]

Really? What do you do for fun? Attach paperclips together in strings of 1,000? Write books on people that collect stamps?

What possesses a person to argue about something as pointless as the semantics concerning the mechanism behind which a respected, well known person is respected and well known?

Hmmmmm....that sounds like something you would argue about.....

 

[pallywally]

Lmao. Just admit that you were wrong and presumptuous about the guy. You are embarrassing yourself.

I was making fun of the misuse of "world renowned," but I've appeared to have hit on finding out that most pharmacy students don't have enough English language study to realize what they're saying, so I see it's useless to try to explain the distinction to you or make an argument for the deliberate use of language especially when you're asking me to believe that DiPiro is an expert on anything and everything to do with pharmacy, including, for some reason, the labor market economics associated with the pharmacy profession.

I'd like to get you and Sarah Palin together to have a conversation. I'm sure it would be hilarious for the audience.

 

[Praziquantel86]

I was making fun of the misuse of "world renowned," but I've appeared to have hit on finding out that most pharmacy students don't have enough English language study to realize what they're saying, so I see it's useless to try to explain the distinction to you or make an argument for the deliberate use of language especially when you're asking me to believe that DiPiro is an expert on anything and everything to do with pharmacy, including, for some reason, the labor market economics associated with the pharmacy profession.

I'd like to get you and Sarah Palin together to have a conversation. I'm sure it would be hilarious for the audience.

Give me another word that adequately describes the things that he is known all over the world for doing, and I'll cede the point.

Globally-recognized apothecary? Internationally-lauded druggist? Transcontinentally appealing pilljockey?

 

[pallywally]

Ok, how about this. DiPiro is the executive editor of the American Journal of Pharmaceutical Education. As such, he is renowned within the circles of pharmacy education as, you guessed it, an expert on pharmacy education.

And within the course of his operation as a Dean at an established and respected school of pharmacy and as the executive editor of a major pharmacy education journal, he has noted that the pharmacist job market is becoming tighter and tighter.

Is that cool? Any correction needed, there, whatever your screen name is?

Well, in just skimming your paragraph, there are a few issues. I have an issue with "operation as a Dean." I would make "Dean" "dean" because you used "a" before it so it's not a proper title but a generic description. Also, it's "okay" (or "O.K." or "OK") not "Ok." I'd put a question mark after your first sentence (the one that started with "Ok"). And that last sentence is sort of a mess. I would revise it with "he has noted that the job market for pharmacists appears to have contracted over the past [however many years]."

 

[pallywally]

Give me another word that adequately describes the things that he is known all over the world for doing, and I'll cede the point.

Globally-recognized apothecary? Internationally-lauded druggist? Transcontinentally appealing pilljockey?

"World renowned pharmacotherapeutics expert" works, but I'm really digging "transcontinentally appealing pilljockey." That's pretty awesome.

 

[avuong]

THis tense economic climate has got us all stressed and bent out of shape, we're turning on ourselves in here arguing about semantic-trivia.

Lets get back on topic and complain about over-supply...
---
In a way its therapeutic, to vent, but also it gets us nowhere. This is the dilemma. [to vent or not to vent?] and [Of what use is this venting?]

This is the ultimate existential question.