P.A curriculum more difficult than M.D curriculum

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NAVYLABTECH08

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Hello all,

Does anyone on here know how difficult the PA curriculum is? I overheard this chick, that is in PA school at Stoney Brook, bragging about how much more difficult PA school is than med school because PA students get everything med school students get, but in a less timespan. I know the first year is very similar for many programs like MD, DO, podiatry, but I did not think PA was that similar. Maybe I'm wrong, but most PA students i know were not good enough or chose not to do medicine (ie GPA too low, afraid of mcat, or afraid of the demanding lifestyle) Why is the PA program more challenging for a less academic group of students, in my opinion. I am not saying that there are not PAs that can make it through med school, I'm just saying the majority can't. How do you guys feel on thi ssubject?
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i think you're already a med student. so it's strange that you care.

my guess (not trying to offend anyone here) is that med school is actually more difficult than PA school. and the student who said otherwise probably has an inferiority complex and needed to make herself feel better about her chosen career path. but seriously, who cares?🙄
 
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Get used to it. For some reason every other professional school likes to claim they are as difficult or harder than medical school. Don't sweat it. It's just their own insecurity speaking.

As for the PA school being everything "med students get, but in less time span", no it isn't. Not worth getting in an agrument with the person about it, but there is no way the four years of medical school could be crammed into a 2 year PA program. They are getting way, way less depth of education, even if their classes have the same names.
 
Also, on average (obviously not true universally), less intelligent / hardworking /etc people go to PA / podiatry school (as opposed to med school), so even if it is less difficult, they are probably likely to think it is more difficult due to their inherent ability / work ethic / etc.

They haven't gone to med school, and so they can't make a fair comparison, but they may think 'nothing could be harder than this' and so they form those opinions.
 
PlasmaMembrane said:
how can you not care about people spreading misinformation about any profession 😕
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Just try to visualize all the people on the interweb that are spreading lies, misinformation, hateful material, and related garbage. Imagine them all in one gigantic room and now imagine yourself spending 20-60 minutes with each of them in an attempt to show them why they are wrong. Its not possible to address all of them. This is why we ignore them and let them say what they want. The people their comments truly attract are the people you want nothing to do with anyway.

I am writing this, which is extremely common knowledge to most of us here, b/c you seem to care. I also cared and ended up fighting a three month-long edit war on Wikipedia. Just don't do it.
 
cpants said:
Get used to it. For some reason every other professional school likes to claim they are as difficult or harder than medical school. Don't sweat it. It's just their own insecurity speaking.
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God forbid any other professional school might ACTUALLY be difficult. 🙄
 
eeeeeeeeegggggggggo Waaaaaaarr!!

I agree with one of the posts above, a 2-year degree definitely learn less than a 4-year degree. Your PA friend is insecure abt his/her profession.
 
NAVYLABTECH08 said:
Hello all,

Does anyone on here know how difficult the PA curriculum is? I overheard this chick, that is in PA school at Stoney Brook, bragging about how much more difficult PA school is than med school because PA students get everything med school students get, but in a less timespan. I know the first year is very similar for many programs like MD, DO, podiatry, but I did not think PA was that similar. Maybe I'm wrong, but most PA students i know were not good enough or chose not to do medicine (ie GPA too low, afraid of mcat, or afraid of the demanding lifestyle) Why is the PA program more challenging for a less academic group of students, in my opinion. I am not saying that there are not PAs that can make it through med school, I'm just saying the majority can't. How do you guys feel on thi ssubject?
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let a graduating PA student take the step 1 and see how he/she does
 
Panda addressed this on his blog a while back.

While certainly their classes are not MORE difficult than MD's, there may be some merit to what they are saying. Things have changed a lot for PA's since the degree was invented, since back when it was formed the body of medical information was much smaller and could be comfortably fit into a 3-year ish length of study. Now, with so many discoveries/entirely new fields, etc., it is a hell of a push for them to pack it in, and they definately feel it in school.

Society has dictated that PA's do much of what internists do these days, and their responsibilities are often comparable (RESPONSIBILITIES, not skills, stay away from the flame button folks), and they do not have the luxury of four years of medical school + internship + residency before they have that responsibility cast upon them (har har, I'm calling the indentured servitude of residency a luxury, wow, what am I smoking these days?!?!?!).
 
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GuitarMan123 said:
let a graduating PA student take the step 1 and see how he/she does
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This is ALMOST a good idea, but not quite fair since they'd bomb the medical biochem section since that whole systems biology portion of the MD education is what PA's are missing.

A more fair comparison might be just to stick to the drugs and bugs that are on the COMLEX (not dissing on DO's here, but the test would be more appropriate as to what PA's are responsible to learn)
 
linguini said:
God forbid any other professional school might ACTUALLY be difficult. 🙄
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Did I say that other schools weren't difficult? I understand that other professional students have rigorous schooling and make sacrifices.

However, there is a reason medical students don't have to go around telling people that their school is just as hard as dental school or chiropractic school. We are already assumed to have the most difficult education, and for the most part, that's a safe assumption.
 
chewsnuffles said:
This is ALMOST a good idea, but not quite fair since they'd bomb the medical biochem section since that whole systems biology portion of the MD education is what PA's are missing.

A more fair comparison might be just to stick to the drugs and bugs that are on the COMLEX (not dissing on DO's here, but the test would be more appropriate as to what PA's are responsible to learn)
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What?Im not really following the logic with your statement. The USMLE is pretty heavy on drugs and bugs. The COMLEX still has some killer biochem on it. Im pretty sure a PA wouldnt fair well on either. Im not trying to call you out I am just wondering where you are drawing these ideas from.

Anyway, what is a PA curriculum like? Do they skip basic sciences and go straight to clinical? Just wondering. I dont know very much about PA's.
 
chewsnuffles said:
Panda addressed this on his blog a while back.

While certainly their classes are not MORE difficult than MD's, there may be some merit to what they are saying. Things have changed a lot for PA's since the degree was invented, since back when it was formed the body of medical information was much smaller and could be comfortably fit into a 3-year ish length of study. Now, with so many discoveries/entirely new fields, etc., it is a hell of a push for them to pack it in, and they definately feel it in school.

Society has dictated that PA's do much of what internists do these days, and their responsibilities are often comparable (RESPONSIBILITIES, not skills, stay away from the flame button folks), and they do not have the luxury of four years of medical school + internship + residency before they have that responsibility cast upon them (har har, I'm calling the indentured servitude of residency a luxury, wow, what am I smoking these days?!?!?!).
Click to expand...

Yeah a lot has changed since the MD was invented too, and there's a lot more information that MD students need to learn... so I don't really see how that would affect just PAs.
 
You'll always hear people saying "my program is harder than med school." Dentists, lawyers, pharmacists, nurses, PAs, etc. People like to believe that they are in the highest echelon of difficulty, because, that way, their successes are more amazing.

That being said, the bottom line is that the litmus test for difficulty is still medical school. Nobody says "my program is harder than PA school" or "pharmaceutical school" or "nursing school." The top tier is still recognized as medicine. Until that changes, you can rest easy knowing that people still recognize your profession as the toughest.

Then again, who really gives a ****?
 
NAVYLABTECH08 said:
Hello all,

Does anyone on here know how difficult the PA curriculum is? I overheard this chick, that is in PA school at Stoney Brook, bragging about how much more difficult PA school is than med school because PA students get everything med school students get, but in a less timespan. I know the first year is very similar for many programs like MD, DO, podiatry, but I did not think PA was that similar. Maybe I'm wrong, but most PA students i know were not good enough or chose not to do medicine (ie GPA too low, afraid of mcat, or afraid of the demanding lifestyle) Why is the PA program more challenging for a less academic group of students, in my opinion. I am not saying that there are not PAs that can make it through med school, I'm just saying the majority can't. How do you guys feel on thi ssubject?
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Yeah I totally think that she was bitter. Uhh they are called physician ASSISTANTS for a reason. If there curriculum was harder and taught them more why would they be the freaking assistant?
 
I was told this as well by a really bitter PA that was doing her rotation with a physician that I shadowed. I immediately recognized she was frustrated that she couldn't be in my position, and agreed that her curriculum was much harder.
 
Ofcourse it's harder. They just don't study the useless stuff see?
 
NAVYLABTECH08 said:
most PA students i know were not good enough
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While this might describe the PA in question, it's pretty arrogant to assume every PA went to PA school because they couldn't go to med school.

agree with phospho, you're really a med student??
 
batteries said:
While this might describe the PA in question, it's pretty arrogant to assume every PA went to PA school because they couldn't go to med school.

agree with phospho, you're really a med student??
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Couldn't agree more. I've met plenty of PA's that are perfectly happy with their jobs and really don't try to compare it to med school. Just because a few people feel the need to justify themselves by comparing their school to medical school I don't think it requires a response. (And it certainly doesn't require outward condescension towards other professions. Med School might be difficult but there are other difficult and rewarding programs out there that have nothing to do with health care and medicine. You really don't need to compare them and there really isn't a prize for having the hardest school.)
 
I'm not too sure about the curriculum, but I would assume getting into medical school is more difficult....
 
sankondbest said:
Yeah I totally think that she was bitter. Uhh they are called physician ASSISTANTS for a reason. If there curriculum was harder and taught them more why would they be the freaking assistant?
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If PA school is harder, why not take the easy way out and go to medical school? With higher MD compensation and easier schooling, it seems like a no brainer.
 
alibai3ah said:
I'm not too sure about the curriculum, but I would assume getting into medical school is more difficult....
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It is but the requirements for PA school are rigorous too. It might not seem high but a 3.0+ is almost a must. They must do immense amounts of shadowing as well. The process is much like the medical school application process. Shadowing, common application, GPA "requirements", interviews, etc.
 
Well obviously posting something like this in a (pre)-med student forum is going to get a flood of replies defending medical school. However, I'm a medical student at Iowa and the PA students here take all of the comparable med school first year classes over the summer (obviously an accelerated, probably abbreviated form), and then continue their curriculum in the fall with the 2nd year med students. And in general, the PA students definitely hold their own. So at least for a large portion of their pre-clinical years, PA school here is just as hard as medical school. Of course, I don't know how it works at other schools and perhaps Iowa is an exception because the PA program here consistently ranks at the very top.
 
first off, i'm EXTREMELY appreciative of the handful of current med students who are providing defense for PA colleagues.

it continues to be an uphill battle and frustrating task to educate the general population, let alone medical professionals who we work with everyday, about the PA profession. i would encourage those who aren't familiar with what PA training entails to refrain from basing their comments on speculation. i'm more than happy to offer my insight as a current PA student.

like others have been said, who in the heck cares. all the programs at my institution say that they have the "toughest" curriculum around. who should anyone judge if they haven't gone through each program themselves. every one of them is difficult in their own respective ways. i have a hard enough time keeping up with my own studies, so why should i care how mine stacks up among the rest.

GuitarMan123 said:
let a graduating PA student take the step 1 and see how he/she does
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if this is meant to take another shot at PAs, then i have quite an issue at that. and again, in regards to exams, i would bet that med students score better on step 1 than many senior physicians. i hope that that doesn't imply that one is "better" than the other. again, in the end, who should really care.
 
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Anyone who says the PA curriculum is not extremely rigorous is kidding themselves. I don't mean to bash other things, but I've looked at some requirements for DNP (online degrees, wtf?) and I would hire a PA over almost any other health professional any day.

It's a very tough curriculum, and PAs tend to be very competent at what they do. Is it harder than medical school? Who cares? What makes physicians unique is the difficultly and the length that they have to go through. PAs get a lot of things in two years - I have nothing but respect for PA students and what they have to do and what they know. It doesn't mean they know more in on year than a typical med student in one year, or they know less. The setup is on the same model, but its different enough as to be apples to organges. There is no need to go on an intellectual equivalent of a dick-measuring contest, cause there'll always be those theoretical physics PhDs with the biggest dicks of them all 😛.
 
Lokhtar said:
Anyone who says the PA curriculum is not extremely rigorous is kidding themselves. I don't mean to bash other things, but I've looked at some requirements for DNP (online degrees, wtf?) and I would hire a PA over almost any other health professional any day.

It's a very tough curriculum, and PAs tend to be very competent at what they do. Is it harder than medical school? Who cares? What makes physicians unique is the difficultly and the length that they have to go through. PAs get a lot of things in two years - I have nothing but respect for PA students and what they have to do and what they know. It doesn't mean they know more in on year than a typical med student in one year, or they know less. The setup is on the same model, but its different enough as to be apples to organges. There is no need to go on an intellectual equivalent of a dick-measuring contest, cause there'll always be those theoretical physics PhDs with the biggest dicks of them all 😛.
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reminds me of this: http://xkcd.com/435/
 
This is laughable, at best. However, I do know quite a few PAs(and PA students) that are much smarter and more hard working than pre-meds and many med students I know.
 
applesandorangessj2.jpg
 
koffein said:
Just try to visualize all the people on the interweb that are spreading lies, misinformation, hateful material, and related garbage. Imagine them all in one gigantic room and now imagine yourself spending 20-60 minutes with each of them in an attempt to show them why they are wrong. Its not possible to address all of them. This is why we ignore them and let them say what they want. The people their comments truly attract are the people you want nothing to do with anyway.
Click to expand...

This place is called youtube.
 
Lokhtar said:
Anyone who says the PA curriculum is not extremely rigorous is kidding themselves. I don't mean to bash other things, but I've looked at some requirements for DNP (online degrees, wtf?) and I would hire a PA over almost any other health professional any day.

It's a very tough curriculum, and PAs tend to be very competent at what they do. Is it harder than medical school? Who cares? What makes physicians unique is the difficultly and the length that they have to go through. PAs get a lot of things in two years - I have nothing but respect for PA students and what they have to do and what they know. It doesn't mean they know more in on year than a typical med student in one year, or they know less. The setup is on the same model, but its different enough as to be apples to organges. There is no need to go on an intellectual equivalent of a dick-measuring contest, cause there'll always be those theoretical physics PhDs with the biggest dicks of them all 😛.
Click to expand...

Theoretical science is useless, skilled experimentalists win this contest.
 
chessknt87 said:
Theoretical science is useless, skilled experimentalists win this contest.
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I'll take an Einstein over your Faraday any day of the week, thanks. Experimentalists deal with minor minutia, theoroetical science deals with the important stuff. Once the real genius has taken place, all the experimentalists come crawling out and try to fall over themselves to get their name attached by applying it experimentally. 😀
 
Oh please, experimentalists discover things and theorists scramble trying to explain it. Ill take visible results with real applications over convoluted explanations with exemptions any day.
 
Experimentalists get bogged down in the details and create data. Theoretical scientists come up with genius hypothesis and elegant mathematical solutions, and hand it down to the lemmings in the lab to verify. It's the difference between the PI who creates the vision, and the undergrad who washes down the rat anus after every swab.
 
Hey guys up top, what came first the chicken or the egg?
 
I had a massage therapist tell me once that completing her 7 month program was "about like finishing the second year of medical school".

Anyway, I think the fact they are all using medical school as the standard to compare to tells you everything. When they become the standard I will believe it.
 
Unless someone has been through both an MD and a PA program, it is going to be very difficult (if not impossible) to compare the two programs appropriately.

However, based on what I've seen at my school, the PA program is absolutely no cake walk. The PAs took the exact same anatomy course (with the same exams) as the MS1 students, except that they had to complete the lab practical without the luxury of ever dissecting a cadaver. Also, while my classmates and I were taking a grand total of one course, the PAs had to juggle multiple courses as well as anatomy. I'm not saying that med students don't eventually have to take some other challenging classes that the PA students don't have to deal with, I'm just saying that for at least a few months at a time, their schedules probably are more difficult than the medical students' schedules.

As for the requirements for getting into a PA program, they aren't exactly lax either. PA programs generally require far more in the way of clinical experience than MD programs do, just because the curriculum is so condensed. I would have a hard time believing that all of my classmates (or I) could have gotten into the PA program with the minimal clinical experience we had. This divide is especially obvious when the PA students and MD students have small group together - they can spout off differential diagnoses for things you have never heard of, and they can make you sound like a complete idiot during your first year - so it's probably best not to patronize them.
 
The question of whether or not PA school is more difficult is irrelevant for 3 reasons.

1. PA school attracts a group of people who probably find school to be a little tougher than the average medical student. The brainiac dude with the 4.0/38 is probably not over-run in medical school. PAs (in my experience) tend to be a little more practical and a little less book smart. I'm not saying your MCAT score determines your worth as an organism but the people with 39s are probably not flocking to PA school.

2. MDs supervise PAs. The final call is the MD. Society/big brother/uncle sam has determined who leads and who follows. You can be the world's smartest PA and you still have to run things by the guy who just came out of residency. Which brings me to...

3. MDs do residency. At the end of medical school you are still pretty green. Even the best medical students need 3 more years of training. PA is a terminal degree for most.


I'm actually a big fan of PAs. Especially on things like inpatient surgical subspecialties they can become the lynchpin of the team. Most of them tend to be confident in what they know but not afraid to admit the limits of their knowledge -- a trait that alot of doctors could learn!!
 
Depakote said:
I could change my status to school admin, wouldn't make me one.
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I'm willing to put a little faith in the people of SDN. It's not like this is his first post.
 
:laugh: Haven't read a single post in this thread. . . but the title cracks me up
 
I can't believe why anyone CARES about this???

Are you guys serious????

Who cares if Porno school is harder than Med school! I didn't set my goals for medical school because it's harder than every other professional/grad school. That is stupid. In fact, if med school is indeed easier than ALL professional schools, thank God, who wants to work hard anyway.

This thread is wasting space on the front page.

Grow some dang balls and tell your PA friend to get some self esteem.
 
first off, i never knew there was a porno school. secondly, there are 348 chem engineers who think their training is tougher than med school. there are also 2,134 law students, 123 pharmacy students, 325 pa's, 21 bio majors and 12 first graders who make the same claim. since we're learning totally different stuff i guess the world may never know who really has it the worst. keep in mind that 1st graders have those darn middle-schoolers to deal with.
given the fact that pa stands for physician assistant and the salary gap, it wouldn't make much sense for the training to be more intense... but there's not really any losers if it is. pa's are generally expected to function on par with mid-level residents, which most of them do; for me, it's tough to get worked up over how exactly they get there.
 
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