P.A curriculum more difficult than M.D curriculum

[Maxx4]

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I hear this all the time. Unless you completed medschool and then went to PA school or whatever else you're comparing it to then you have no basis to make such a grand statement.

Whatever makes them feel better.

 

[cpants]

Who cares if Porno school is harder than Med school!

I'd imagine it is. hahaaa

 

[SirGecko]

I'd imagine it is. hahaaa

Its probably longer too.😉

 

[NonTradMed]

I guess I shouldn't care whether people think their school is harder than med school but I sometimes get annoyed when people tell me that so-and-so school is just as competitive/hard as med school. I mean, do you want me to give you a medel? You think I enjoy working my ass off? So now, if anyone tells me their school is just as hard if not worse than med school, I tell them that must really suck since I wouldn't wish med school on anyone.

Besides, am I suppose to be impressed that med school is the standard that other professional schools measure themselves? Med school hands out a lot of work and forces us to make sarcrifices, it's not something to brag about.

 

[melanoleuca]

Society has dictated that PA's do much of what internists do these days, and their responsibilities are often comparable (RESPONSIBILITIES, not skills, stay away from the flame button folks), and they do not have the luxury of four years of medical school + internship + residency before they have that responsibility cast upon them (har har, I'm calling the indentured servitude of residency a luxury, wow, what am I smoking these days?!?!?!).

Most PAs are hired to do routine, repetitive, time consuming things and their responsibilities are not remotely comparable to those of an internist or other specialist who hires them. In fact, the level of responsibility for most PAs isn't even remotely close to that of a physician.

I don't think you know what an internist does.

The most ridiculous creature in the hospital? Your typical brand new PA. They make interns look like they know what they're doing...and a lot less if expected of a new PA then of an intern.

 

[melanoleuca]

I'd also like to point out that chiropractors also insist that their curriculum is as in-depth and rigorous as medical school. Obviously the way to increase the perceived value of your education is to devalue somebody else's.

 

[Revilla]

It is but the requirements for PA school are rigorous too. It might not seem high but a 3.0+ is almost a must. They must do immense amounts of shadowing as well. The process is much like the medical school application process. Shadowing, common application, GPA "requirements", interviews, etc.

I considered PA school and did some research before deciding that med school was a better fit for me. What I found out, though, as far as the application process went was that clinical experience was an absolute must for the PA schools I looked at, and I'm not talking about just shadowing an afternoon a week for a semester. The schools I was interested in said the average clinical hours of their students was in the 1500-2000 range. Most were CNAs, EMTs, nurses, mid-wives, etc. The pre-reqs were all the same as well with the exclusion of Biochem (which some med schools require) and the addition of Microbiology.

 

[eze8923]

I considered PA school and did some research before deciding that med school was a better fit for me. What I found out, though, as far as the application process went was that clinical experience was an absolute must for the PA schools I looked at, and I'm not talking about just shadowing an afternoon a week for a semester. The schools I was interested in said the average clinical hours of their students was in the 1500-2000 range. Most were CNAs, EMTs, nurses, mid-wives, etc. The pre-reqs were all the same as well with the exclusion of Biochem (which some med schools require) and the addition of Microbiology.

You'll hear this a lot, but for this reason, the typical med school applicant is generally not the best PA school applicant due to the clinical hours requirement. It's this requirement that people overlook when they say that PA school is merely 2 years in length. Just from my experience thus far (within my own program), I can't imagine not having some sort of foundation prior to matriculation. On the other hand, an older applicant with years of experience is not necessarily the textbook med school applicant either. So again, in many aspects, you're comparing apples and oranges. And in the end, you'll be like most in here it seems and could care less.

Again, I very much appreciate the support given by current students especially. The programs where PA and med students alike take the same courses are nice in the sense that med students coming out of school are aware of what kind of background and training PA's have.

As for the terminal degree as a PA, there are post-graduate residencies available for PAs as well who are looking for specialized training, although it is not a requirement to practice. Also, what PAs give up in upward movement, we gain in lateral flexibility as one of the reasons that many (including myself) chose to be a PA is because of the ability to move freely between different specialities and areas of medicine. Even then, there is some upward mobility based on additional training obtained, but of course in our case, not as much.

Also, in regards to the title of physician assistant... there's a lot of issue with the use of "assistant." Unless you have experienced it for yourself, it's frustrating to have to deal with explaining your background, training, and role to a good number of patients that you see. There continues to be a move to change the title, perhaps to physician "associate," however, the money required to make that happen is something that many are not willing to give up. In fact, there are a handful of programs who currently graduate their students as physician associates. But having said all of that, NPs have "practitioner" in their title, which provides more clarity. There are a ton of suggestions out there, but "associate" seems to be the most favored as we don't have to worry about changing the "PA" designation and cause further confusion. If you ask me, the title I could care less about, but if it helps educate the public on our specific role, then I'm all for it. You get extremely tired of being mixed up with medical assistants very quickly.

 

[melanoleuca]

...Also, what PAs give up in upward movement, we gain in lateral flexibility as one of the reasons that many (including myself) chose to be a PA is because of the ability to move freely between different specialities and areas of medicine...

Which is not exactly a ringing endorsement of the depth of PA training although I often hear the ease of lateral movement touted as a benefit of being a PA. Consider a physician who wants to change specialties. The only way, for example, an internist can credibly practice as a cardiologist is to complete an additional three years of fellowship on top of his first three years of residency. A PA, on the other hand, can get a job with a cardiology group and a few days later, mirabile dictu, he is a cardiology PA.

Nothing wrong with this of course. The role of a PA in many subspecialties does not require the depth of knowledge of a physician and I repeat, many PAs are hired to do the relatively low-skilled grunt work of a practice so this depth of knowledge is not required. But unless we're going to revisit that magical world where two is bigger than four, three years of residency is no different than a little on-the-job-training, and superior knowledge can be had without learning all of that useless stuff, the ease of moving into different specialties should only indicate that a certain...how can I put it...comprehensiveness is not required of a PA.

 

[melanoleuca]

...there's a lot of issue with the use of "assistant." Unless you have experienced it for yourself, it's frustrating to have to deal with explaining your background, training, and role to a good number of patients that you see...

I'm sure if you explained it honestly the patients would not be overwhelmed:

"I'm like a doctor except the doctor had four years of medical school and four years of residency for a total of eight years of medical training (not to mention his Bachelors degree in Biochemistry) while all I had was two years of PA school. But other than that there's no difference."

Come on now.

 

[45408]

This place is called youtube.

The comments on that site make the posts here look like Pulitzer prize-winning pieces. There's so much stupid in the average post over there that it hurts.

 

[45408]

Its probably longer too.😉

 

[DrFraud]

Also, in regards to the title of physician assistant... there's a lot of issue with the use of "assistant." Unless you have experienced it for yourself, it's frustrating to have to deal with explaining your background, training, and role to a good number of patients that you see. There continues to be a move to change the title, perhaps to physician "associate," however, the money required to make that happen is something that many are not willing to give up. In fact, there are a handful of programs who currently graduate their students as physician associates. But having said all of that, NPs have "practitioner" in their title, which provides more clarity. There are a ton of suggestions out there, but "associate" seems to be the most favored as we don't have to worry about changing the "PA" designation and cause further confusion. If you ask me, the title I could care less about, but if it helps educate the public on our specific role, then I'm all for it. You get extremely tired of being mixed up with medical assistants very quickly.

I was in the ED last week taking an H + P on a patient and I asked who his primary care provider was and the answer I received was 'DR ........., a PA' . No kidding, his PA really calls himself Dr. to his patients. I guess this PA has no worries about being mixed up with medical assistants.

 

[eze8923]

Which is not exactly a ringing endorsement of the depth of PA training although I often hear the ease of lateral movement touted as a benefit of being a PA. Consider a physician who wants to change specialties. The only way, for example, an internist can credibly practice as a cardiologist is to complete an additional three years of fellowship on top of his first three years of residency. A PA, on the other hand, can get a job with a cardiology group and a few days later, mirabile dictu, he is a cardiology PA.

Nothing wrong with this of course. The role of a PA in many subspecialties does not require the depth of knowledge of a physician and I repeat, many PAs are hired to do the relatively low-skilled grunt work of a practice so this depth of knowledge is not required. But unless we're going to revisit that magical world where two is bigger than four, three years of residency is no different than a little on-the-job-training, and superior knowledge can be had without learning all of that useless stuff, the ease of moving into different specialties should only indicate that a certain...how can I put it...comprehensiveness is not required of a PA.

I thought that I would get this point made after my post. I completely understand. That's why the duties from PA to PA vary in almost every circumstance there is. When PAs do change specialties, we're slowly worked up into duties of course, or on a "short leash" for lack of a better word, which should of course be the case. Only with time can we earn the trust of our SP to the point where our scope can be expanded. PAs should have no problem with that. No one can be expected to be thrown into something new and be expected or assume the responsibilities equal to that of the SP's expertise. Like you said, the scope of a PA just starting with a cardiology group is not going to be the same as one who has worked within that group for his/her 20 year career.

Depending on what the physician or physician group is looking for in a PA, then they can hire accordingly. There are PAs out there doing nothing but botox injections and perfectly happy with it. For others, they spend an entire career in a given field or specialty. So all things considered, a PA's duties can vary a great deal depending on the practice setting. I'll provide an example: a surgeon may look for a PA to contribute to his/her surgical practice to take of the primary care tasks and management of patient care... not for surgical reasons. In many circumstances actually, PAs in surgical specialty get more patient contact than in non-surgical specialties.

 

[eze8923]

I was in the ED last week taking an H + P on a patient and I asked who his primary care provider was and the answer I received was 'DR ........., a PA' . No kidding, his PA really calls himself Dr. to his patients. I guess this PA has no worries about being mixed up with medical assistants.

keep in mind that a PA identifying him/herself as a doctor in the clinical setting is ILLEGAL.

now, there are countless cases where the patient can't tell the difference for whatever reason, or doesn't understand the role of PA despite being corrected repeatedly... there's not much more we can do. i highly doubt that the PA identified him/herself as dr. *** for the above reason, rather again, the patient has no idea what a PA is and thus, by default confuses his/her PCP as a doctor. because this is never the issue for physicians, it's most likely difficult to relate. just imagine being asked, "what's a physician?" to your patient during your encounter. for goodness sakes as well, it's EXTREMELY frustrating and a complete waste that we PA students have to spend time thinking about how we are going to explain what a PA is to those particular patients. thus, i hope my efforts here on the forum are only helping to foster understanding of our profession.

and yes, you can't imagine the number of times PAs are mistaken as medical assistants.

 

[eze8923]

I'm sure if you explained it honestly the patients would not be overwhelmed:

"I'm like a doctor except the doctor had four years of medical school and four years of residency for a total of eight years of medical training (not to mention his Bachelors degree in Biochemistry) while all I had was two years of PA school. But other than that there's no difference."

Come on now.

sorry, but more to come on this later. i'll explain exactly why saying "i'm like a doctor except..." hardly works, let alone is inappropriate in the clinical setting.

 

[Artful Dodger]

Just roaming in the pre-med forum. I'm a pre-pharm as ya'll can see. However, I truly believe that anything is possible & easy enough if you thoroughly enjoy what you study. That said, pharmacy, dentistry, medicine, engineering, PA, podiatry are all their own categories of difficulty; neither can be compared in strength or difficulty; and neither prove you're smarter than anyone. Trust me, I know the feeling...it's individualized as opposed being absolute truth that a particular school of training is TOUGHER than another one...It might be true for you, but what are the chances someone else agrees with you? Arguments will never end. Worry about yourself before you worry about others (with regards to academics).

FYI, in case you want to know, I was once a pre-med. I used to post HEAVILY (under another screename) on this particular forum back in the day, but I since changed to Pharmacy because Medicine is risky & I've discovered I hate patient contact (and the risk attached to them in by directly treating them). I truly have an interest in the field of Medicine, but I think (personally) Pharmacy is exactly what I'm looking for...I wasn't open to the idea of it initially (because it seemed like so many people were going into it), but now I am. Hopefully all your dreams come true! Let this be a CONSTANT reminder to always choose something you enjoy & love; otherwise you'll end up hating your life. You can brag all you want, but this is a career we're talking about...our talents and expertise; it's not like knowledge is hidden because you're not a medical student (there's people in Biology/Chemistry/Sociology/Psychology etc who know more about medicine than the average physician - believe that)...So, judge intellect on your own terms. Forget making comparisons. There's bright people in every imaginable field of discipline - more than just dissecting, comparing, analyzing, judging the "notorious" medical school student or cirriculum haha. Anyway, good luck everyone! There's haters everywhere and its your job to ignore it.

 

[ngkats]

Who cares if Porno school is harder than Med school!

Awesome.

 

[melanoleuca]

...No one can be expected to be thrown into something new and be expected or assume the responsibilities equal to that of the SP's expertise...

Except for interns and residents. That's the difference, that is, within reason they really do except the housestaff to grow quickly into their responsibilities and duties which is why PAs do not "function as residents" except in superficial ways.

In fact, if you are a good intern and a good resident the nurses expect you to make decisions and function like an attending. A PA who can function at an intern level is a curiousity. An intern who functions on a PA level is regarded as something of a slacker.

 

[cpants]

Just roaming in the pre-med forum. I'm a pre-pharm as ya'll can see. However, I truly believe that anything is possible & easy enough if you thoroughly enjoy what you study. That said, pharmacy, dentistry, medicine, engineering, PA, podiatry are all their own categories of difficulty; neither can be compared in strength or difficulty; and neither prove you're smarter than anyone. Trust me, I know the feeling...it's individualized as opposed being absolute truth that a particular school of training is TOUGHER than another one...It might be true for you, but what are the chances someone else agrees with you? Arguments will never end. Worry about yourself before you worry about others (with regards to academics).

FYI, in case you want to know, I was once a pre-med. I used to post HEAVILY (under another screename) on this particular forum back in the day, but I since changed to Pharmacy because Medicine is risky & I've discovered I hate patient contact (and the risk attached to them in by directly treating them). I truly have an interest in the field of Medicine, but I think (personally) Pharmacy is exactly what I'm looking for...I wasn't open to the idea of it initially (because it seemed like so many people were going into it), but now I am. Hopefully all your dreams come true! Let this be a CONSTANT reminder to always choose something you enjoy & love; otherwise you'll end up hating your life. You can brag all you want, but this is a career we're talking about...our talents and expertise; it's not like knowledge is hidden because you're not a medical student (there's people in Biology/Chemistry/Sociology/Psychology etc who know more about medicine than the average physician - believe that)...So, judge intellect on your own terms. Forget making comparisons. There's bright people in every imaginable field of discipline - more than just dissecting, comparing, analyzing, judging the "notorious" medical school student or cirriculum haha. Anyway, good luck everyone! There's haters everywhere and its your job to ignore it.

Sorry, but no. Medicine is hugely different than any of those fields, though it incorporates aspects of all of them. I understand that the information we learn is freely available to anyone with a library card, but do people actually spend the time (I'm talking many thousands of hours here) to learn as much medicine as a medical student, let alone a practicing physician? No. That's not a judgment, just the truth. There are many, many professors at my school who know everything there is to know about their area of expertise (pharmacology, for example), but know next to nothing about anatomy, diagnosis, examination technique, and all of the other subjects that go into a medical education.

 

[Artful Dodger]

Sorry, but no. Medicine is hugely different than any of those fields, though it incorporates aspects of all of them. I understand that the information we learn is freely available to anyone with a library card, but do people actually spend the time (I'm talking many thousands of hours here) to learn as much medicine as a medical student, let alone a practicing physician? No. That's not a judgment, just the truth. There are many, many professors at my school who know everything there is to know about their area of expertise (pharmacology, for example), but know next to nothing about anatomy, diagnosis, examination technique, and all of the other subjects that go into a medical education.

Oh, I'm sorry for putting that in there. I wasn't thinking. You're right, they are very different (I think I gave the impression of superiority in there, which I clearly see as I reread my post). But I think the point I'm making is...there's no standard to measure difficulty. In this particular situation (what the OP started), I know exactly what goes in the mind of every health profession that is not a physician - that they can do something better than a doctor. That's a really popular notion just because a lot goes into becoming a physician...and they're referred to as the "geeks" of the health system, et cetera. Afterall, in general we are a jealous people.

 

[docorno]

This whole discussion is a bunch of nothing. Seriously. Some random person says, "my schooling is harder than yours." The person who hears this can't believe what that person says. So they get aroused. People who say what they do is tougher than what others do need to say it to stroke their ego (ergo for men...what is it for females?).

There is a reason why specific material is taught for each profession. A person with a Ph.D. in statistics learns in great detail about statistics. A person who studies the stars gets a Ph.D in their area (I can't imagine solving those math equations). A lawyer studies their specific aspect of law. A person who is going to graduate school for a life science profession (immunology, endocrinology, etc) get to learn a lot about their specific subject. A PA, a MD (or DO), a PT, a RT, etc learn that material that is required to perform their specific job.

Look everyone, we go to school to get a job that we get a degree in and in most jobs in the United States you work under specific guidelines. If you want to be the ultimate king, become the leader of the United States for four years.

Comparing any professional degree course to another WILL ALWAYS be apples to oranges. If you want to compare oranges to organges, you need to compare the same training (for the same job) compared to other countries.

 

[jstuben]

What started as a question about a silly statement by what sounds like a grumpy PA student has grown into an interesting discussion. I am a PA who graduated last year and now works in critical care. I will share my thoughts in hopes that it helps someone understand better the PA concept and our relationship with MDs/DOs.

First, from what I can tell, PA school is certainly not harder than medical school. PA education is intense, and it is broad in scope, but not as deep as med students. Unless you have a degree in physiology etc etc, PA students do not have the same science foundation as a 3rd year med student. Though our pre-reqs are generally the same as for med-school, minus the full year of O-chem, the biochem, and the physics (though many of my classmates had done all these), what med students learn in the first two years goes much deeper than what we cover.

This reflects the concept of the PA and why we are trained the way we are. As I see it, PAs exist to increase access to physician-based medical care. Our training emphasizes history taking and physical exam because our patients and the health care system rely on PAs making safe judgements about what they should or should not manage themselves (in a similar sense, an MD/DO also makes that decision when he or she consults a specialist). Certainly my goal is to build a relationship with my supervising physician where he or she entrusts patients to me, knowing that I will use their services whenever needed.

I am proud of my training. I don't intend to replace the physician-patient relationship, but to enhance it. Finally, don't confuse education with intelligence. That's the mistake I've seen rookie health profesionals make (both MD, PA), before they've been in practice. Any seasoned health professional will tell you that they have made some big blunders in their career, and that the people they rely on to help render quality care don't always have a doctorate title on their name badge 🙂. Don't forget to thank your nurses, respiratory therapists, etc. etc.