Pa To Do

[IDFTIGER]

Sup, any PA's planning on going to med school (DO specifically)? Any advice you guys willing to share? How did being a PA factor into acceptances etc.?

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[Vox Animo]

Just curious, why are you making the change?

 

[IDFTIGER]

I'm a PA student, and went to PA school for personal/finanacial reasons, and also to gain lots of clinical experience. I've always wanted to be a doc, but things happen lol. Anyways after PA school I'm gonna try for med-school. We learn most of the same things as med students, especially clinically; we learn the same procedures, do same clinical rotations etc. No one gives me slack in roations, in terms of knowledge b/c I'm a PA, lol, gotta stay on top of my game just like med students. But I still wanna go to the top and be an doc.

 

[Hardbody]

I'm a PA student, and went to PA school for personal/finanacial reasons, and also to gain lots of clinical experience. I've always wanted to be a doc, but things happen lol. Anyways after PA school I'm gonna try for med-school. We learn most of the same things as med students, especially clinically; we learn the same procedures, do same clinical rotations etc. No one gives me slack in roations, in terms of knowledge b/c I'm a PA, lol, gotta stay on top of my game just like med students. But I still wanna go to the top and be an doc.

I am sure an ex PA that is a current med student or practicing physician/surgeon will tell you that there is MUCH MORE to medical school. You have only been to PA school so you cannot really speak to what medical school is all about. However, I am sure your PA education will make some of the material easier in medical school.

BTW, "But I still wanna go to the top and be an (a) doc" is not going to go over well with ADCOMs. You really need to think about how you are going to explain going PA first, if you tell them what I have just quoted you on, you may as well not even apply. When do you graduate from PA school and when do you plan on applying to medical school?

 

[mj1878]

By the way, wanting to go to medical school and thinking that getting in is a sure thing because you've been accepted to PA schools is a huge miscalculation. Thinking that you know anything about what being a medical student is about because you've wandered the same halls with them and kibitzed does NOT mean that you're one of them. I wish you luck if your intentions are pure and you're going into it because you feel it's a profession to which you can contribute positively, but if you're going into it for the reasons that I SUSPECT you're going into it for, then I'm not so sure you'll be making it past the committee.

 

[mj1878]

Sup, any PA's planning on going to med school (DO specifically)? Any advice you guys willing to share? How did being a PA factor into acceptances etc.?

I'd actually count that you dropped out of PA school to go for the "top spot" AGAINST you as a committee member. It never looks good for you to not finish one professions' educational preparation in favor for one that, let's face it, offers higher pay and prestige. Many will look upon your decision as turning up your nose at the PA profession, which is in NO WAY a lesser choice than medical school. They won't like that you didn't have it in you to finish; how do they know that you'll finish medical school (if you START, that is)? If you had finished PA school, worked a few years as a practicing PA and then switched, then your experience and education would indeed be a help, but as it is it will drag you down and give you false confidence, much like what you displayed in your posts.

 

[scpod]

Sup, any PA's planning on going to med school (DO specifically)? Any advice you guys willing to share? How did being a PA factor into acceptances etc.?

There are some DO schools that seem to value a previous clinical education. DMU, for instance, is one of those. Did you notice that you don'y have to have a DO letter there, but htey require you to have a recomendation from someone who can verify your clinical experience? In another note, I have a good friend who was accepted to one DO school quite a few years ago, but turned it down because he was tols that he was "first" on the waiting list. To make a long story short, he was not accepted there, applied to PA school and was a PA for 8 years. When he re-applied to DO school, he had great scores and applied broadly, yet DMU (actually had a different name then) was the ONLY school that accepted him. Guess what? He's an orhtopaedic surgeon now-- one of two DOs in a practice that also has 8 MDs. I guess my point is that some schools appreciate "clinical" experience more than others. MOST, however, don't necessarily look at it as a factor. If you think that being a PA is "likely" to help you, then you may not get the results that you are looking for. However, if you apply broadly (same as everyone else) your chance increase.

 

[IDFTIGER]

I never said PA school is the same as med school, however it is very hard and is quite comparble to the last two clinical years of med school. I got rotations with med students and we are taught the SAME THINGS. No one gives me slack b/c I'm becoming a PA. There no diseases which are "PA worthy" or "doctor worthy." There are personal reasons forcing me to go PA first, however I do love the PA profession, and I will work as a PA for some time, but just because I wanna be a doc, does not mean I'm disrespecting the PA profession. I respect this profession b/c it has given a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience, and has challeneged me greatly in terms of academics. And by the way I've tutored med-students on rotations and during didatics, guys, so believe me PA's are EXTRMELY knowledegable, and there are many parts of PA and med school which are comparable. By the way PA school, is 2/3 of med school (my MD teachers told us this fact). I got teachers who are both PA's and docs, and both treat eachother as equals, and both have a great amount of knowledge. By the way, you know nothing about me to "SUSPECT" my reasons for going to medicine and to the top. Im going into it because that's what I love, but things occur in life that don't always allow you to go straight to med school, so you guys have no right to judge me. Also, there are many PA programs, whose admissions, are as stiff if not more stiff than those of med school. Finally, I know many PA's who went on to med school, who said ADCOMS LOVED the fact that they were PA's, and that was the main reason for their acceptances: their tremendous clinical experience, knowledge, and maturity. Yea, I wanna be a doc, but don't bash PA's or my reasons for going PA first then MD/DO. By the way mj, who said I'm dropping out of PA school?

 

[IDFTIGER]

I just asked for any experiences from previous PA's about applying to med school, on this thread, THAT'S ALL lol, so you guys really shouldn't talk S*** when you dont know a person.

 

[It'sElectric]

I never said PA school is the same as med school, however it is very hard and is quite comparble to the last two clinical years of med school. I got rotations with med students and we are taught the SAME THINGS. No one gives me slack b/c I'm becoming a PA. There no diseases which are "PA worthy" or "doctor worthy." There are personal reasons forcing me to go PA first, however I do love the PA profession, and I will work as a PA for some time, but just because I wanna be a doc, does not mean I'm disrespecting the PA profession. I respect this profession b/c it has given a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience, and has challeneged me greatly in terms of academics. And by the way I've tutored med-students on rotations and during didatics, guys, so believe me PA's are EXTRMELY knowledegable, and there are many parts of PA and med school which are comparable. By the way PA school, is 2/3 of med school (my MD teachers told us this fact). I got teachers who are both PA's and docs, and both treat eachother as equals, and both have a great amount of knowledge. By the way, you know nothing about me to "SUSPECT" my reasons for going to medicine and to the top. Im going into it because that's what I love, but things occur in life that don't always allow you to go straight to med school, so you guys have no right to judge me. Also, there are many PA programs, whose admissions, are as stiff if not more stiff than those of med school. Finally, I know many PA's who went on to med school, who said ADCOMS LOVED the fact that they were PA's, and that was the main reason for their acceptances: their tremendous clinical experience, knowledge, and maturity. Yea, I wanna be a doc, but don't bash PA's or my reasons for going PA first then MD/DO. By the way mj, who said I'm dropping out of PA school?

I personally have no problem with you jumping from PA-C to Physician. All the more power to you, but please don't try to convince us that PA school is 2/3 of med school. PA programs are all 2 years (1 year classroom/science based, 1 year clinical), and they don't require a bachelor's to enter the program. Furthermore, there is no residency training following certification.

It is without a doubt a wonderful career that pays well and allows you to work no more than 40 hours a week. In fact, it was recently on the top ten list of Money Magazine's best jobs in America. PAs are incredibly knowledgeable and an absolute necessity to healthcare in America. Nevertheless, I would never, ever refer to them as 2/3 of a physician.

I think your intentions are sound, so the very best of luck to you!

 

[Hardbody]

I never said PA school is the same as med school, however it is very hard and is quite comparble to the last two clinical years of med school. I got rotations with med students and we are taught the SAME THINGS. No one gives me slack b/c I'm becoming a PA. There no diseases which are "PA worthy" or "doctor worthy." There are personal reasons forcing me to go PA first, however I do love the PA profession, and I will work as a PA for some time, but just because I wanna be a doc, does not mean I'm disrespecting the PA profession. I respect this profession b/c it has given a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience, and has challeneged me greatly in terms of academics. And by the way I've tutored med-students on rotations and during didatics, guys, so believe me PA's are EXTRMELY knowledegable, and there are many parts of PA and med school which are comparable. By the way PA school, is 2/3 of med school (my MD teachers told us this fact). I got teachers who are both PA's and docs, and both treat eachother as equals, and both have a great amount of knowledge. By the way, you know nothing about me to "SUSPECT" my reasons for going to medicine and to the top. Im going into it because that's what I love, but things occur in life that don't always allow you to go straight to med school, so you guys have no right to judge me. Also, there are many PA programs, whose admissions, are as stiff if not more stiff than those of med school. Finally, I know many PA's who went on to med school, who said ADCOMS LOVED the fact that they were PA's, and that was the main reason for their acceptances: their tremendous clinical experience, knowledge, and maturity. Yea, I wanna be a doc, but don't bash PA's or my reasons for going PA first then MD/DO. By the way mj, who said I'm dropping out of PA school?

Sometimes when you post a question on SDN you need to give a bit more background so posters can make a more informed posting. I do have a question for you. How do you know if admissions for PA school are just as stiff as some of the ADCOMs for medical school? Have you previously applied to medical school?

BTW, where these ADCOMs that loved the fact that your med school applicant buddies from D.O. programs or M.D. programs? Also I would like to mention that it is more than likely that these PAs have had a tremendous amount of clinical experience BEYOND PA school. Good luck with everything!

 

[IDFTIGER]

Sometimes when you post a question on SDN you need to give a bit more background so posters can make a more informed posting. I do have a question for you. How do you know if admissions for PA school are just as stiff as some of the ADCOMs for medical school? Have you previously applied to medical school?

BTW, where these ADCOMs that loved the fact that your med school applicant buddies from D.O. programs or M.D. programs? Also I would like to mention that it is more than likely that these PAs have had a tremendous amount of clinical experience BEYOND PA school. Good luck with everything!

Admissions are stiff b/c I applied, and got in, to a school that accepted 36 applicants out of 600 applicants.Also, that PA school is 2/3 of med school im not making up, my MD teachers have told me that lol. Also, although, as you, say there is no residency following certification, you are absolutely correct, but add to that MANDATORY residency. You have the option of doing a PA certified residency. in additon, my PA friends, who were accepted to med school, on average had 3-5 years of experience. Good Luck to everyone!

 

[Hardbody]

Admissions are stiff b/c I applied, and got in, to a school that accepted 36 applicants out of 600 applicants.Also, that PA school is 2/3 of med school im not making up, my MD teachers have told me that lol. Also, although, as you, say there is no residency following certification, you are absolutely correct, but add to that MANDATORY residency. You have the option of doing a PA certified residency. in additon, my PA friends, who were accepted to med school, on average had 3-5 years of experience. Good Luck to everyone!

Easy there cowboy, you have the wrong poster. I didn't say anything about a residency certification or PA school not being 2/3's of medial school. The truth is neither of us really knows the true comparisons between the two schools since neither of us have attended both. The only people that can make a true comparison between PA school and medical school are the ones that have been through both, and there are a handfull on this forum that have done just that. Maybe you will get lucky and have one of them either post on this thread or send you a PM

I would also like you to note that just because your PA school has 600 candidates and only 36 attend does not make admissions as stringent as medical school. As someone once said, "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

First of all, I doubt that the majority of applicants for PA school would have been competitive for medical school when they applied. That is no diss to PA school applicants, since they may very well be bright hard working people. What I am saying is their APPLICATION may not have been as competitive. To say PA school admissions is as competitive as medical school admissions is like saying playing minor league ball is as tough as playing in the majors. It simply doesn't hold water.

Second of all, what is the OVERALL acceptance rate of PA applicants vs. OVERALL acceptance rate of medical students. I am sure there is a HUGE difference here, but I don't have the ambition to look up the numbers on this. If you have solid evidence to refute me, please post it and enlighten me.

Do not take this post as a knock to you. I just don't want you to get pumped up with a false sense of confidence.

BTW, what are your current GPA's?

 

[IDFTIGER]

Easy there cowboy, you have the wrong poster. I didn't say anything about a residency certification or PA school not being 2/3's of medial school. The truth is neither of us really knows the true comparisons between the two schools since neither of us have attended both. The only people that can make a true comparison between PA school and medical school are the ones that have been through both, and there are a handfull on this forum that have done just that. Maybe you will get lucky and have one of them either post on this thread or send you a PM

I would also like you to note that just because your PA school has 600 candidates and only 36 attend does not make admissions as stringent as medical school. As someone once said, "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

First of all, I doubt that the majority of applicants for PA school would have been competitive for medical school when they applied. That is no diss to PA school applicants, since they may very well be bright hard working people. What I am saying is their APPLICATION may not have been as competitive. To say PA school admissions is as competitive as medical school admissions is like saying playing minor league ball is as tough as playing in the majors. It simply doesn't hold water.

Second of all, what is the OVERALL acceptance rate of PA applicants vs. OVERALL acceptance rate of medical students. I am sure there is a HUGE difference here, but I don't have the ambition to look up the numbers on this. If you have solid evidence to refute me, please post it and enlighten me.

Do not take this post as a knock to you. I just don't want you to get pumped up with a false sense of confidence.

BTW, what are your current GPA's?

I disagree, many PA schools are extremely, competitive, and some are more competitive then med schools, that's a fact, if you wanna disprove me go ahead. Secondly, I had a 3.9 GPA when I applied to PA school, which had only 36 spots available, and I know people with 4.0's who did not get in!!! So buddy believe me, PA school is extremely competitive, and will become more so, as the profession keeps growing. My GPA now in PA school is about 3.65. I don't have a "false" sense of confidence because I base my arguments on facts and experience.

 

[Hardbody]

I disagree, many PA schools are extremely, competitive, and some are more competitive then med schools, that's a fact, if you wanna disprove me go ahead. Secondly, I had a 3.9 GPA when I applied to PA school, which had only 36 spots available, and I know people with 4.0's who did not get in!!! So buddy believe me, PA school is extremely competitive, and will become more so, as the profession keeps growing. My GPA now in PA school is about 3.65. I don't have a "false" sense of confidence because I base my arguments on facts and experience.

PA applicants have a 66% acceptance rate:

http://www.aapa.org/research/05-newenrollees-survey.pdf

Medical school applicants are somewhere in the mid 40% acceptance rate.

The qualitative aspect of these numbers you need to take into account is that a large number of PA applicants applied to PA school because they were not competitive for medical school. That being said, if you GPA is really 3.9, and assuming you can have a decent all around scores on your MCAT you should have no problem (numerically) getting into a medical school somewhere.

As far as that false sense of confidence statement, trust me, it is good to have some doubt in the back of your mind because it will drive you to be your best. Again, good luck.

 

[Elysium]

First of all, tiger, you're going to have to learn how to write english correctly and with proper punctuation if you want to be a doctor or a PA. You write like a second grader, which really is a disservice to the PA profession.

Second, I'm in the very unique position of having been to the first year of medical school (took a leave of absence for a lot of reasons...long story) and I'm currently in PA school. With the same exact stats I applied to both DO and PA schools. I got into 4 DO schools (every place I interviewed at) and 3 PA schools (including the #2 PA school according to US News, among other top 20 schools). My GPA is roughly 3.4. I have a liberal arts background. I'm a post-bacc. Have a few years of clinical experience, but nothing that's going to set the world on fire (mostly MA type stuff). Getting into PA (competitive PA schools) and DO schools (esp. the lesser tier schools - and I think we all know who they are) isn't really all that different. If you want to go MD or to a super competitive DO school (TCOM, OSUCOM, PCOM, etc) it may be a little more difficult. Getting into medical school isn't all that impossible, it's mostly tenacity.

PA school is absolutely, without a doubt NOT 2/3 or 3/4 or 4/5 or anything else of medical school. It's so friggin' boring when PAs say that, because they have absolutely no frame of reference. PA school is a watered down medical school, with more clinical applications of facts versus the tragic, annoying minutia bullsh1t they cram down your throats in medical school. Our anatomy and phys class in PA school is 7 weeks. In medical school we spent THE ENTIRE FIRST YEAR on these courses (along with a lot of other crap). In PA school there simply isn't the time to go into any kind of detail about the subject matter, it simply isn't possible. It's based on the same thing, but it most certainly is not the same thing. As for clinicals, yes, you're exposed to the same disease process, but do you really honestly think, in his (or her) mind, that your attending is holding you to the same standard as the med student? No. And you know why? Because you aren't a doctor and you aren't expected to be the sole decision maker. The PA profession is intertwined quite profoundly with our dependent role on physicians. We're not NPs. We're not trying to take practice rights away from docs, or else we would have just gone to medical school in the first place (or finished it).

There are a lot of total dispsh1t doctors and even more dipsh1tty medical students. You're probably smarter than a lot of the med students you're rotating with. But, you know what? You just have to eat it. Doctors trump for one reason and it's not medical school (because no one remembers anything from first year anyway). It's residency. Those 3+ years make a physician who they are and allow them the "luxury" or being able to practice on their own and make the final decision about a patient.

My SO is an intern and he f-ing hates it. He hates being a doctor and his life is a constant and enduring suck fest. I do not envy him and I do not regret leaving medical school. I don't give a sh1t about being "top dog" because it's so childish and middling and absurd to make that your motivation for a career that will put you over $200,000 in debt and 7+ years of your life in the red before you even begin.

The point is: you can get into DO school. It isn't all that difficult, if you jump though the hoops, take the MCATs and make more than a 22 on them and apply widly. I don't know if your PA experience is going to be a plus, because some adcoms are prejudiced against midlevels (even RNs) leaving their role to become a doc (don't know why, I've just seen it happen). Also, I think PAs are sometimes a little overconfident in their knowledge and need to have a little more humility about our eductation. It isn't equal. It isn't 2/3. It's similar and that's it.

 

[mj1878]

I never said PA school is the same as med school, however it is very hard and is quite comparble to the last two clinical years of med school. I got rotations with med students and we are taught the SAME THINGS. No one gives me slack b/c I'm becoming a PA. There no diseases which are "PA worthy" or "doctor worthy." There are personal reasons forcing me to go PA first, however I do love the PA profession, and I will work as a PA for some time, but just because I wanna be a doc, does not mean I'm disrespecting the PA profession. I respect this profession b/c it has given a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience, and has challeneged me greatly in terms of academics. And by the way I've tutored med-students on rotations and during didatics, guys, so believe me PA's are EXTRMELY knowledegable, and there are many parts of PA and med school which are comparable. By the way PA school, is 2/3 of med school (my MD teachers told us this fact). I got teachers who are both PA's and docs, and both treat eachother as equals, and both have a great amount of knowledge. By the way, you know nothing about me to "SUSPECT" my reasons for going to medicine and to the top. Im going into it because that's what I love, but things occur in life that don't always allow you to go straight to med school, so you guys have no right to judge me. Also, there are many PA programs, whose admissions, are as stiff if not more stiff than those of med school. Finally, I know many PA's who went on to med school, who said ADCOMS LOVED the fact that they were PA's, and that was the main reason for their acceptances: their tremendous clinical experience, knowledge, and maturity. Yea, I wanna be a doc, but don't bash PA's or my reasons for going PA first then MD/DO. By the way mj, who said I'm dropping out of PA school?

'Sup.

 

[IDFTIGER]

First of all, tiger, you're going to have to learn how to write english correctly and with proper punctuation if you want to be a doctor or a PA. You write like a second grader, which really is a disservice to the PA profession.

Second, I'm in the very unique position of having been to the first year of medical school (took a leave of absence for a lot of reasons...long story) and I'm currently in PA school. With the same exact stats I applied to both DO and PA schools. I got into 4 DO schools (every place I interviewed at) and 3 PA schools (including the #2 PA school according to US News, among other top 20 schools). My GPA is roughly 3.4. I have a liberal arts background. I'm a post-bacc. Have a few years of clinical experience, but nothing that's going to set the world on fire (mostly MA type stuff). Getting into PA (competitive PA schools) and DO schools (esp. the lesser tier schools - and I think we all know who they are) isn't really all that different. If you want to go MD or to a super competitive DO school (TCOM, OSUCOM, PCOM, etc) it may be a little more difficult. Getting into medical school isn't all that impossible, it's mostly tenacity.

PA school is absolutely, without a doubt NOT 2/3 or 3/4 or 4/5 or anything else of medical school. It's so friggin' boring when PAs say that, because they have absolutely no frame of reference. PA school is a watered down medical school, with more clinical applications of facts versus the tragic, annoying minutia bullsh1t they cram down your throats in medical school. Our anatomy and phys class in PA school is 7 weeks. In medical school we spent THE ENTIRE FIRST YEAR on these courses (along with a lot of other crap). In PA school there simply isn't the time to go into any kind of detail about the subject matter, it simply isn't possible. It's based on the same thing, but it most certainly is not the same thing. As for clinicals, yes, you're exposed to the same disease process, but do you really honestly think, in his (or her) mind, that your attending is holding you to the same standard as the med student? No. And you know why? Because you aren't a doctor and you aren't expected to be the sole decision maker. The PA profession is intertwined quite profoundly with our dependent role on physicians. We're not NPs. We're not trying to take practice rights away from docs, or else we would have just gone to medical school in the first place (or finished it).

There are a lot of total dispsh1t doctors and even more dipsh1tty medical students. You're probably smarter than a lot of the med students you're rotating with. But, you know what? You just have to eat it. Doctors trump for one reason and it's not medical school (because no one remembers anything from first year anyway). It's residency. Those 3+ years make a physician who they are and allow them the "luxury" or being able to practice on their own and make the final decision about a patient.

My SO is an intern and he f-ing hates it. He hates being a doctor and his life is a constant and enduring suck fest. I do not envy him and I do not regret leaving medical school. I don't give a sh1t about being "top dog" because it's so childish and middling and absurd to make that your motivation for a career that will put you over $200,000 in debt and 7+ years of your life in the red before you even begin.

The point is: you can get into DO school. It isn't all that difficult, if you jump though the hoops, take the MCATs and make more than a 22 on them and apply widly. I don't know if your PA experience is going to be a plus, because some adcoms are prejudiced against midlevels (even RNs) leaving their role to become a doc (don't know why, I've just seen it happen). Also, I think PAs are sometimes a little overconfident in their knowledge and need to have a little more humility about our eductation. It isn't equal. It isn't 2/3. It's similar and that's it.

First of all, thx for the "compliment" on my writing, but again I dont have to write a flowing novel for you, in order to get my point across. Not everyone has time to sit on this forum and write like Hemingway. Secondly, if I couldn't write, I doubt I would have a 3.9 before PA school, and get to where I am now. This is called slapdash, casual writing.

Secondly, most of what you say is purely your opinion. I dont where you went to school, but schools vary. I'm not saying PA's are better than docs, but knowledge, especially with years of experience, on the part of PA's, can come quite close to to that of docotrs, in their fields. (I have PA teachers who are more knowledgable than some of my MD teachers)

As for PA school being 2/3 of med school, I didn't pull that out of the air, MY MD PROFESSORS HAVE TOLD ME THAT, argue with them not with me on that. Also, I don't know who your attendings were, by my attendings and professors gave me NO SLACK when I could not answer, b/c "I'm going PA." We were taught the same things and held to the same standards as med students. Also, I never said that PA education is the same as that of med school, however clinically it's quite close(PA friends turned docs have told me this).

In the end, not always, but from my experience, and from what I have seen, PA's, especially in primary care, see most of the same patients as doctors, they just get paid less. It's all about experience. I have MD's in my family, and they have told me 70% of med school is BS basically; your knowledge comes from experience, and in many cases, PA's can become more knowledgable than MD's. In the end Patients don't care about amino acids, and formaldehyde, and book knowledge; they care if you can help them. Basically, they care about hands on clincial medicine. Clinical knowledge and experience together, are what raises MD's and PA's to the highest of levels. Not always, but most of the time patients can't tell the difference between PA's and MD's because the quality of care is so close. if this was not the case the PA profession would be long gone, and would not grow as it is now. Also, not only can PA's get to a pretty high level, I personally have seen an RN CORRECT A RESIDENT'S DIAGNOSIS. It's all about experience.

Finally, being a PA, I beleive, is a huge plus. You have a temedous amount of knowledge, and clincial experience. I have friends who said adcoms loved that about them, and compliments ranged from "you will have no problem in medical school," to "we are looking for students like you," to "we hope we're your first choice," to "we need an anchor in our class." PA friends have told me this from their interviews at adcoms, and siad that being a PA contributed more than anything to their acceptances.

Im not bashing PA's or MD's because I will experience both, however a person's knowledge and ability should NEVER be judged by their title.

 

[AngryBaby]

First of all, thx for the "compliment" on my writing, but again I dont have to write a flowing novel for you, in order to get my point across. Not everyone has time to sit on this forum and write like Hemingway. Secondly, if I couldn't write, I doubt I would have a 3.9 before PA school, and get to where I am now. This is called slapdash, casual writing.

Secondly, most of what you say is purely your opinion. I dont where you went to school, but schools vary. I'm not saying PA's are better than docs, but knowledge, especially with years of experience, on the part of PA's, can come quite close to to that of docotrs, in their fields. (I have PA teachers who are more knowledgable than some of my MD teachers)

As for PA school being 2/3 of med school, I didn't pull that out of the air, MY MD PROFESSORS HAVE TOLD ME THAT, argue with them not with me on that. Also, I don't know who your attendings were, by my attendings and professors gave me NO SLACK when I could not answer, b/c "I'm going PA." We were taught the same things and held to the same standards as med students. Also, I never said that PA education is the same as that of med school, however clinically it's quite close(PA friends turned docs have told me this).

In the end, not always, but from my experience, and from what I have seen, PA's, especially in primary care, see most of the same patients as doctors, they just get paid less. It's all about experience. I have MD's in my family, and they have told me 70% of med school is BS basically; your knowledge comes from experience, and in many cases, PA's can become more knowledgable than MD's. In the end Patients don't care about amino acids, and formaldehyde, and book knowledge; they care if you can help them. Basically, they care about hands on clincial medicine. Clinical knowledge and experience together, are what raises MD's and PA's to the highest of levels. Not always, but most of the time patients can't tell the difference between PA's and MD's because the quality of care is so close. if this was not the case the PA profession would be long gone, and would not grow as it is now. Also, not only can PA's get to a pretty high level, I personally have seen an RN CORRECT A RESIDENT'S DIAGNOSIS. It's all about experience.

Finally, being a PA, I beleive, is a huge plus. You have a temedous amount of knowledge, and clincial experience. I have friends who said adcoms loved that about them, and compliments ranged from "you will have no problem in medical school," to "we are looking for students like you," to "we hope we're your first choice," to "we need an anchor in our class." PA friends have told me this from their interviews at adcoms, and siad that being a PA contributed more than anything to their acceptances.

Im not bashing PA's or MD's because I will experience both, however a person's knowledge and ability should NEVER be judged by their title.

As much as I hesitate to jump into this spitting contest I just want to add that I'm taking a prematric biochem class being taught by a 4th yr (the dean of admissions called her a "superstar" in the 1st class) . She said that she's seen students who were previously med professionals such as RN's, PA's and EMT's generally have difficulty in the basic science yrs because they think they've learned alot of the material before and in reality they've learned a sort of "shortcut" version due to many reasons, including time constraints of the other degrees. As a result of this some of them hold on to prior misconceptions and "half-truths" they've been taught and incorrectly answer various questions on exams in the first 2 yrs using "knowledge" they received in their other degrees vs. what they've been taught in MD/DO class.

Just a point that I found to be interesting. I'd be curious to get more definitive info re: PA education (though the whole "3/4" thing sounds a little iffy).

 

[deleted6669]

Educated in medical programs, PAs are qualified to perform 80 to 85% of the duties most commonly done by primary care physicians. PAs perform physical examinations, diagnose and treat illnesses, order and interpret lab tests, counsel on preventive health, suture wounds, set fractures, and assist in surgical operations. In 49 states, the District of Columbia, and Guam, PAs have prescriptive privileges.

http://www2.umdnj.edu/paweb/profess.html

 

[AngryBaby]

Educated in medical programs, PAs are qualified to perform 80 to 85% of the duties most commonly done by primary care physicians. PAs perform physical examinations, diagnose and treat illnesses, order and interpret lab tests, counsel on preventive health, suture wounds, set fractures, and assist in surgical operations. In 49 states, the District of Columbia, and Guam, PAs have prescriptive privileges.

http://www2.umdnj.edu/paweb/profess.html

I would argue having the ability to do those things does not mean the depth of knowledge is equivalent. Also if you compare PA's to FP physicians I will obviously agree that there is little difference btwn the two in practice. However as a doctor you can also specialize (depending on board scores, etc) coming out of med school and I think we're talking about ALL physicians and ALL PA's, correct? If so then I'll take the pool of knowledge for docs over PA's. But, again, for family practice there obviously is little difference btwn the two (other than the doc's debt).

 

[deleted6669]

I would argue having the ability to do those things does not mean the depth of knowledge is equivalent. Also if you compare PA's to FP physicians I will obviously agree that there is little difference btwn the two in practice. However as a doctor you can also specialize (depending on board scores, etc) coming out of med school and I think we're talking about ALL physicians and ALL PA's, correct? If so then I'll take the pool of knowledge for docs over PA's. But, again, for family practice there obviously is little difference btwn the two (other than the doc's debt).

pa's can also specialize through postgrad residencies(www.appap.org) or on the job experience and training. after 19 years working in emergency medicine I would argue that although I do not have 80% of the book knowledge of an em physician I can do 80% of what they do.
that is not to say that the standard is not the physician(it is) but in small/rural/inner city/underserved settings a pa is the next best thing.
I would also argue that a specialty pa knows more about that specialty(say em) than a physician who does not practice that specialty so given the choice for myself or my family I would(and have) take a skilled em pa over an fp/im doc without em experience.

 

[AngryBaby]

pa's can also specialize through postgrad residencies(www.appap.org) or on the job experience and training. after 19 years working in emergency medicine I would argue that although I do not have 80% of the book knowledge of an em physician I can do 80% of what they do.
that is not to say that the standard is not the physician(it is) but in small/rural/inner city/underserved settings a pa is the next best thing.
I would also argue that a specialty pa knows more about that specialty(say em) than a physician who does not practice that specialty so given the choice for myself or my family I would(and have) take a skilled em pa over an fp/im doc without em experience.

Agreed. I don't mean to belittle PA's in any way.

I think comparing PA's in a certain specialty with docs of different specialties is sort of like apples vs. oranges, but I agree with that statement of yours nonetheless. Also, when I was shadowing a doc recently a friend of mine was shadowing in the same hospital with me and actually shadowed a PA for 1 day and said he noticed no difference btwn the PA vs. docs he shadowed, for whatever that's worth.

 

[deleted6669]

Agreed. I don't mean to belittle PA's in any way.

I think comparing PA's in a certain specialty with docs of different specialties is sort of like apples vs. oranges, but I agree with that statement of yours nonetheless. Also, when I was shadowing a doc recently a friend of mine was shadowing in the same hospital with me and actually shadowed a PA for 1 day and said he noticed no difference btwn the PA vs. docs he shadowed, for whatever that's worth.

I didn't think you were belittling pa's, I was just offering additional personal observations.I have known a few pa's who returned to medschool( all D.O.)- they all did very well in school, especially yr 3 and 4, but were surprised yr 1 and 2 with the amt of material in physiology, etc that they did not know. you will get no arguement from me that the md/do degree/training is the standard. if I was a bit younger and single I would return to school to complete my medical education but at this point it looks unlikely that I could juggle that with my family and financial responsibilities.I have calculated(several times) the personal cost for me to attend medschool. when you consider salary lost+ cost of school and loans it is over 1 million dollars. this would have me breaking even around the time most folks start thinking about retirement.so for now I have to make due with where I am and my current skills sets, knowledge and abilities and try to soak up more along the way.
peace-emedpa.

 

[AngryBaby]

I didn't think you were belittling pa's, I was just offering additional personal observations.I have known a few pa's who returned to medschool( all D.O.)- they all did very well in school, especially yr 3 and 4, but were surprised yr 1 and 2 with the amt of material in physiology, etc that they did not know. you will get no arguement from me that the md/do degree/training is the standard. if I was a bit younger and single I would return to school to complete my medical education but at this point it looks unlikely that I could juggle that with my family and financial responsibilities.I have calculated(several times) the personal cost for me to attend medschool. when you consider salary lost+ cost of school and loans it is over 1 million dollars. this would have me breaking even around the time most folks start thinking about retirement.so for now I have to make due with where I am and my current skills sets, knowledge and abilities and try to soak up more along the way.
peace-emedpa.

Just making sure I was being understood. There's a lot of quick flamings on this forum when these types of debates come up. I was trying to sort of pre-empt any such attempt. Yeah PA's make good money, have a lot of independence, work reasonable hrs, low debt, etc so it makes sense for many folks.

 

[wjlj72]

First, I would like to start and say that PA is a valuable position in the healthcare profession. With that being said I do have so disagreements with some of the above posters. I am currently in medical school and I also have taken classes with PA, as I was in an accelerated program at my undergrad. I do agree with the posters that PA do have a lot of clinical experience and alot of procedures most MD/DOs perform; I also agree that PA school is competitive. However, comparing medical school and PA school is absurd! Tiger I know someone told you that PA school is like medical school but from first hand experience, that is totally not true. I have taken Neuroscience with PAs and Medical school and the amount of information when comparing both is such a big difference; its is like comparing the Phone Book to Time Magazine. For one in the PA class they taught you the big concepts, after all you have to be done in one year before you go to clinicals. Medical school Neuroscience is not concise at all and there is more information that were added and expected to be known, that the PAs I took it with were not expeceted to know. The same goes with anatomy and so on...

Second, I have a lot of PA friends who applied to medical school and failed to get accepted. Because of this most of them have to justify why PAs are just as good as Doctors and that schooling wise it is the same. Like I said before I value PAs, but the truth to the matter is that any PA who has to justify how much PAs are equal to MD/DO in schooling, I'm sorry to say it but is just BITTER because they couldn't get into medical school in the first place (this obviously excludes those who chose the PA profession over medical school, which I definitely know that is the case with some people).


Emed-PA I've read some of you post in the past and although you are very happy with being a PA, from what I read you fall in category of being bitter because you couldn't be a physician. So before any PA starts saying that PAs are nearly equal to MD, or that the schooling is the same just STOP IT. YOU chose to apply to PA school, you chose to be a PA, so do try to justify the profession because in the end it is a very presitigious and helpful career that helps thousands of people. I hope some of you don't get offended by my post, but what I know for sure is that PAs are not nearly equal to MD/DO and that PA school is not 1/2 of medical school (or whatever was posted). And to the poster who said that My MD professor told me that. One of my PA professor told me that PA are nowhere close to being a physian or having the knowledge they do. Have a good night everyone.

 

[IDFTIGER]

First, I would like to start and say that PA is a valuable position in the healthcare profession. With that being said I do have so disagreements with some of the above posters. I am currently in medical school and I also have taken classes with PA, as I was in an accelerated program at my undergrad. I do agree with the posters that PA do have a lot of clinical experience and alot of procedures most MD/DOs perform; I also agree that PA school is competitive. However, comparing medical school and PA school is absurd! Tiger I know someone told you that PA school is like medical school but from first hand experience, that is totally not true. I have taken Neuroscience with PAs and Medical school and the amount of information when comparing both is such a big difference; its is like comparing the Phone Book to Time Magazine. For one in the PA class they taught you the big concepts, after all you have to be done in one year before you go to clinicals. Medical school Neuroscience is not concise at all and there is more information that were added and expected to be known, that the PAs I took it with were not expeceted to know. The same goes with anatomy and so on...

Second, I have a lot of PA friends who applied to medical school and failed to get accepted. Because of this most of them have to justify why PAs are just as good as Doctors and that schooling wise it is the same. Like I said before I value PAs, but the truth to the matter is that any PA who has to justify how much PAs are equal to MD/DO in schooling, I'm sorry to say it but is just BITTER because they couldn't get into medical school in the first place (this obviously excludes those who chose the PA profession over medical school, which I definitely know that is the case with some people).


Emed-PA I've read some of you post in the past and although you are very happy with being a PA, from what I read you fall in category of being bitter because you couldn't be a physician. So before any PA starts saying that PAs are nearly equal to MD, or that the schooling is the same just STOP IT. YOU chose to apply to PA school, you chose to be a PA, so do try to justify the profession because in the end it is a very presitigious and helpful career that helps thousands of people. I hope some of you don't get offended by my post, but what I know for sure is that PAs are not nearly equal to MD/DO and that PA school is not 1/2 of medical school (or whatever was posted). And to the poster who said that My MD professor told me that. One of my PA professor told me that PA are nowhere close to being a physian or having the knowledge they do. Have a good night everyone.

In the end, it's all about experience, and motivation, not titles. I've seen RN's correcting residents on their diagnoses, and I've seen attendings who were wrong and PA's who were right, and vice versa. It's the person, not the letters behind the name, that make the the correct diagnosis and carry out the treatment.

 

[It'sElectric]

In the end, it's all about experience, and motivation, not titles. I've seen RN's correcting residents on their diagnoses, and I've seen attendings who were wrong and PA's who were right, and vice versa. It's the person, not the letters behind the name, that make the the correct diagnosis and carry out the treatment.

I understand the point you're trying to make here, but it's irrelevant. Yes, RNs will catch mistakes by attendings and attendings will catch mistakes of RNs. Likewise the very same can be said for PAs/interns/residents. That's the nature of the beast. Everyone is working towards the same cause, which is taking care of the ill and injured (this is what I most all of us on here love about medicine - collaboration).

Nevertheless, simply stating that fact does not imply that the breadth/depth of knowledge that each respective field has is equal, because it's not at all. Each profession fills an incredibly valuable need, but they are not all equal or even two-thirds equal.

 

[IDFTIGER]

I understand the point you're trying to make here, but it's irrelevant. Yes, RNs will catch mistakes by attendings and attendings will catch mistakes of RNs. Likewise the very same can be said for PAs/interns/residents. That's the nature of the beast. Everyone is working towards the same cause, which is taking care of the ill and injured (this is what I most all of us on here love about medicine - collaboration).

Nevertheless, simply stating that fact does not imply that the breadth/depth of knowledge that each respective field has is equal, because it's not at all. Each profession fills an incredibly valuable need, but they are not all equal or even two-thirds equal.

I'm not talking about being equal in terms of "book knowledge," because in the end, patients dont care about biochemistry, chemical reactions, or embryology; they care if you can help them. Again, in the end it's all about expereince, mtivation, and the person.

 

[Gentle_Touch]

IDFTIGER,
Dont let these **** discouraging you from becoming a doctor. I know many RNs, PAs, College professors--> Medical Schools. If you still have the heart and potential, Go for it!! Money means nothing....If doctor is what you always wanted. It brothersome them because, one day you'll wear same name status on your badge as they are, plus your clinical work etc.. this is why many are scaring/discouraging you.

 

[It'sElectric]

IDFTIGER,
Dont let these **** discouraging you from becoming a doctor. I know many RNs, PAs, College professors--> Medical Schools. If you still have the heart and potential, Go for it!! Money means nothing....If doctor is what you always wanted. It brothersome them because, one day you'll wear same name status on your badge as they are, plus your clinical work etc.. this is why many are scaring/discouraging you.

You couldn't be more incorrect. I previously encouraged IDFTIGER to go for it, and that I believed his/her intentions were sound. I'm all for it. The majority of us were simply debating the level of education a PA receives versus an MD/DO.

IDFTIGER- The thing is, that book knowledge can and will translate to a deeper understanding of the clinical basis and thus enable you to better understand and diagnose. Furthermore, there isn't just an increase in book training between PA and MD/DO, there's also clearly a far greater amount of clinical training. Since a physician is the standard, they are provided with more opportunities to learn and involve themselves with more cases than a PA. Thus, they ultimately learn a great deal more even in the clinical setting.

Either way, good luck to you and anyone else switching from one medical field to another. Go for your dreams and be the best damn doctor that you want to be.

 

[TitoMD]

PA is a great career that deserves its credit. Personally, I don't think PA school is 1/2 of medical school, but there will always be PAs who say they are equally trained as MD/DO. Tiger apply to medical school and become a physician, only then will you be able to say if PA school and Medical school is 1/2 as you mentioned before.

I do know that PA get one full year of classes followed by one year of clinicals. I've heard of PA say, I was correcting 2nd, 3rd year, and 4th year medical student and I am a PA. But don't forget that these medical student have two year of book work, so when they go to clinical rotation most don't have clinical experience, whereas an PA has already 1 year worth, so to me that is expected.

PAs are great and it is a awesome career, but I wish people would be happy with what they chose to do. If you are happy with your career you don't have to justify how PAs can correct physicians and so on... Be happy and YOU are the one that decided that career. You want to be a physician go for it, apply to medical school, only YOU can stop yourself.

TitoMD

 

[IDFTIGER]

Yea, thx guys good luck to all of you too!!!

 

[Vox Animo]

From what i understand from the OP, is that he/she are currently in PA school. I think this was mentioned earlier, but if he are going straight from PA school to MD/DO, this my be a red flag for admissions, they thinking that you coudl not get in first round so only went PA, and then applied MD, although this might not be true, thats how it would appear.

PA do have an appeal to adcoms if they have been practicing for a number of years and then apply to Med school, because they have seen the scope of the field and practice.

If md/do is what you want and you won't be satisfied in your current field, then do it. Also if you finish PA school, moonlighting 1 or two nights a week in a hospital will definetely help reduce your debt and keep you from living like a student.