PA to MD application chances

[Oldhorn]

Hello everyone!

First time posting, but long time reading

Non traditional applicant for next year (2018-2019), trying to gauge if I can make changes to my application and be more competitive.

The story: 27yo, married, no kids, graduated PA school x2 years ago started working CT surgery and internal medicine. I landed an amazing gig right out of school full of amazing opportunities that I took full advantage of (cadaver lab for OR skills, SIMs for running codes/RR) and just now got involved w/ an ECMO program at our hospital network. To make it short and sweet, I completely FELL IN LOVE w/ medicine and am craving SO MUCH MORE! I can see the limitations of my degree and can sense a glass ceiling for my profession and hope to transition to a different role sooner rather than later.

The reason: I want to go back to school to gain more knowledge, provide higher-end patient care, have more autonomy, do research, and dive deep into teaching.

The stats: 3.1 undergrad (w/ last 2 semesters 3.7), 3.7 PA (reputable program + integrated into honor society), MCAT ( studying and pending)

The "excuses": American, grew up overseas, French mother-tongue, English second language, working proficiency in Dutch. Had trouble early in college because reading/writing skills weren't up to par

The extra-curriculars:
- Research in undergrad
- Medical missions
- Wrote anecdotal article for medical journal
- Volunteer at church/big brother
- Leadership in undergrad and at work training incoming students/PAs/Interns
- Plenty of healthcare experience w/ good degree of autonomy and skills (US, central lines, chest tubes, OR, CXRs, ...)
- Returning lecturer at Alma mater and assisting w/ teaching physical exam/suturing labs

The financials: Debt free except for mortgage from income properties, good cushion in bank, hopefully can continue working while going to medical school

The backing:Wife on board, plenty of MD letters of recommendation + PA program director

So what do you guys think? What are my chances? What I can do to strengthen my application?

Questions? Comments? Concerns?

Would love to make the list of schools NARROW just for wife's sake and stay in Ohio...

Thanks!!

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[857770]

There is a PA to DO bridge program. Here it is: APAP Curriculum Overview - LECOM Education System

 

[piii]

Depending on the mcat, should be good for DO. Will have to do a post bac or SMP to prove you're academically capable for MD.

 

[Oldhorn]

Great thanks for the reply! So my masters as a PA doesn't really count as SMP or is it just not "competitive GPA?"

 

[JonathanHusky]

Great thanks for the reply! So my masters as a PA doesn't really count as SMP or is it just not "competitive GPA?"

if you were able to maintain good grades throughout the PA program, which it sounds like you were, I don't see why that wouldn't count... but I'd wait to get some advice from the SDN superiors (@Goro )
once you have an MCAT score, it'll be easier to know what programs/schools to target

 

[Goro]

Depending on the mcat, should be good for DO. Will have to do a post bac or SMP to prove you're academically capable for MD.

Agree 100%

 

[samac]

The financials: Debt free except for mortgage from income properties, good cushion in bank, hopefully can continue working while going to medical school

Just want to point out that this definitely won’t happen. Don’t bank on the ability to keep working.

 

[Oldhorn]

Great thanks for the advice everyone! I'll focus on studying for the MCAT in the next few months, take it in April and hopefully do well enough to apply first thing in June

Definitely "hope" to keep working, but obviously it'll be a game time decision. We have time to figure things out financially prior to starting. Good thing I don't need to buy a brand new stethoscope for school!!

What do you guys think is the cut off for MCAT scores MD vs. DO? Or should I just apply throughout both schools no matter what?

 

[857770]

If you go for the PA to DO bridge program, the MCAT is waived. Accelerated PA to DO Program Waives MCATs - Student Doctor Network

 

[857770]

Just won’t to point out that this definitely won’t happen. Don’t bank on the ability to keep working.

Some students do work in the first two years, but it is impossible once one reaches the third year.

 

[samac]

Great thanks for the advice everyone! I'll focus on studying for the MCAT in the next few months, take it in April and hopefully do well enough to apply first thing in June

Definitely "hope" to keep working, but obviously it'll be a game time decision. We have time to figure things out financially prior to starting. Good thing I don't need to buy a brand new stethoscope for school!!

What do you guys think is the cut off for MCAT scores MD vs. DO? Or should I just apply throughout both schools no matter what?

I’d apply to both as long as your MCAT is above a 505 if you’re willing to do DO, I wouldn’t close doors.

 

[Medic2MD4me]

Current PA matriculating MD this fall , just wanted to say good luck to you on your journey . It's a hard decision to make going back to school. I attended two md interviews and my pa experience was discussed in a positive light at both, so perhaps being a pa will help overshadow your gpa. The lecom program is a great deal if you're not geographically limited in where you apply, but I wouldn't put all your eggs in one basket by banking on that and not taking the mcat. I havent seen the numbers but I hear it's pretty competitive and anecdotally there's more pas applying to medical school than I'd realized.

 

[Mad Jack]

Great thanks for the advice everyone! I'll focus on studying for the MCAT in the next few months, take it in April and hopefully do well enough to apply first thing in June

Definitely "hope" to keep working, but obviously it'll be a game time decision. We have time to figure things out financially prior to starting. Good thing I don't need to buy a brand new stethoscope for school!!

What do you guys think is the cut off for MCAT scores MD vs. DO? Or should I just apply throughout both schools no matter what?

A lot of schools expressly prohibit you from working, and some functionally prohibit it by requiring that you request to work beforehand. In all likelihood, you will not be able to work more than perhaps two to three shifts a month even if you are able. Medical school is not easy. It is not a part time endeavor. If you forget this, you will fail.

 

[de Ribas]

I’d apply to both as long as your MCAT is above a 505 if you’re willing to do DO, I wouldn’t close doors.

MD with 3.1 GPA?

 

[Oldhorn]

MD with 3.1 GPA?

Was hoping the upward trend and good PA program GPA would show serious academic improvement. Thoughts?

 

[Forever Geebs]

Do you have all the pre-reqs for med school?

Like others have said, you will likely need to post-bacc to improve your GPA. Your undergrad GPA is kept separate from your masters/professional school and the 3.1 is what will be used. By the way, is the 3.1 cumulative, BCPM, or both? Important to list both.


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[Oldhorn]

Do you have all the pre-reqs for med school?

Like others have said, you will likely need to post-bacc to improve your GPA. Your undergrad GPA is kept separate from your masters/professional school and the 3.1 is what will be used. By the way, is the 3.1 cumulative, BCPM, or both? Important to list both.


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Interesting didn't know it was so compartmentalized. 3.1 is cumulative, science was 3.4 w/ ending semesters in 3.7 cumulative 3.8 science
English is my second language and I had trouble the first year and half w/ english/humanities classes

 

[piii]

Look. There may be a *chance* you get in with your low gpa. A chance. As a medical professional, you look at cost/benefit ratios when you weigh certain treatment and diagnostic options. Are you prepared to waste thousands of dollars and a year on a application when you have a low chance of someone looking past your poor gpa? Or do you want to apply DO or spend a year GPA enhancing for a better shot at MD?

 

[samac]

MD with 3.1 GPA?

Whoops. I misread the post and thought it was a 3.7. DO is your best bet at this point. My apologies.

 

[MareNostrummm]

I'd consider LECOMS PA to DO bridge program, especially with your 3.1 undergrad gpa. The minimum MCAT score they accept is 40th percentile. Minimum GPA is 2.7.

However, if you score really high on the MCAT you can also do a 1 year post bacc, which would make you competitive for MD schools if you can get a 3.8+ (the higher the better).

 

[857770]

In my med school, not in my class, several PAs and one NP worked during the first two years. I think PAs were able to do this due to having more medical education/experience than the rest.

 

[Bisquiteen Trisket]

Depending on the mcat, should be good for DO. Will have to do a post bac or SMP to prove you're academically capable for MD.

A 3.7 in PA school doesn't prove that someone is academically capable for medical school??? Someone who's actually practiced medicine before and taken rigorous healthcare classes should just about always get a bump over undergrads/pre-meds.

I think the MCAT is probably going to be the decider here.

@Oldhorn You might try asking pa forums as well.

 

[gyngyn]

Was hoping the upward trend and good PA program GPA would show serious academic improvement. Thoughts?

Professional school gpa's are not considered comparable to undergraduate gpa. A weak one would hurt, but a good one doesn't have the same impact as baccalaureate grades.

 

[Bisquiteen Trisket]

Professional school gpa's are not considered comparable to undergraduate gpa. A weak one would hurt, but a good one doesn't have the same impact as baccalaureate grades.

Why is that? PA school is built off the medical school model (obviously not as comprehensive/intensive). I don't think there is a graduate program more comparable. Certainly not a random post bacc.

 

[gyngyn]

Why is that? PA school is built off the medical school model (obviously not as comprehensive/intensive). I don't think there is a graduate program more comparable. Certainly not a random post bacc.

Evaluators commonly expect that professional school grades are high.
It is also true that since very few applicants have grades from a PA school there is little upon which to compare.

 

[Med Ed]

hopefully can continue working while going to medical school

You should let this hope die.

Would love to make the list of schools NARROW just for wife's sake and stay in Ohio...

[ ] Narrow school list
[ ] Chance of acceptance

Pick one.

 

[HomeSkool]

Definitely "hope" to keep working, but obviously it'll be a game time decision.

Hoping to is fine, but planning not to is wise. Figure out your financials as if you won't be working. Your grades need to come first. Debt can be repaid. Bad med school grades may keep you out of a desired specialty permanently.

Would love to make the list of schools NARROW just for wife's sake and stay in Ohio...

You've got 7 options in Ohio, 6 of which are allopathic. With your undergrad GPA, that's far too few schools and weighted far too heavily toward MD. Better to apply to all schools nationwide for which you might be competitive, then decide where to go based on the outcome. First things first, though. Read Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention. @Goro's also a great resource for compiling your list of schools when the time comes.

 

[Oldhorn]

Sound good guys! Thanks for all the feed back, I'll keep focusing on studying for the MCAT, maybe get my name on a couple papers coming out soon, keep moving into more exciting clinical roles, being involved with some changes in our standard of care, and playing it by ear once the scores come in.

Not much I can do about my undergrad GPA at this point, and going back for post-bacc sounds a little goofy after having a masters of science. We'll see I guess.

My PA program is affiliated with a respectable MD program and I have just as many Master's credits as my undergrad degree, so we'll see if that somehow lines up with a SMP as in Goro's advice for pre-meds thread... (Thanks @HomeSkool )

As far as widening the school list, some of the neighboring states have med schools (they remain allopathic....) not too far from us so I was planning on applying there too.

Everyone is harping on the financial aspect of med-school, my wife and I can see it coming (working less (so many flexible per-diems...)/not being able to work during school, decreased earning as resident...) We've been around the block a couple of times and have been working on some passive income strategies (income properties mostly).

Planning is what we (love) do best

I'll update you guys when I have my scores and started applying to schools. Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky!

 

[HomeSkool]

going back for post-bacc sounds a little goofy after having a masters of science

Not necessarily. Formal post-bacc programs affiliated with medical schools can help you get a foot in the door in ways your master's work can't. Read up a bit here: Post-baccalaureate Programs

As far as widening the school list, some of the neighboring states have med schools (they remain allopathic....) not too far from us so I was planning on applying there too.

Cast a very wide (nationwide, MD + DO) net. If you get accepted to a school near your current location, that's great! If you don't get accepted nearby but do get accepted elsewhere, at least you won't have to reapply.

We've been around the block a couple of times and have been working on some passive income strategies (income properties mostly).

This is GREAT. Keep it up and I may develop a man-crush on you.

Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky!

 

[EastSide]

Coming from someone who completed a postbac program - I would NOT recommend postbac...

You completed a PA program with a 3.7GPA.
You probably have several thousand hours of patient care.
You're way better prepared for med school than any incoming naive traditional pre-med students or postbac students.

The only exception to my recommendation is if the postbac or master program guarantees a direct admin (linkage) or an interview following the completion of the program.

I think 500MCAT will give you a decent shot at DO schools, 505 to be safe.
Beyond 508, I would strongly consider applying to MD schools.

GPA is normally used to gauge your ability to finish/excel the med school curriculum. I assume you took cardio, immuno, anatomy, neuro, etc in PA school. Getting a 3.7GPA on these courses is indicative on your ability to do well in medical school and will surely stand out more than undergrad GPA.

Please save yourself the trouble on applying to cut-throat schools like NYU...
Their average GPA is around 3.9 and 519 on the MCAT.

Encouraged by the bravery on you making a life-changing decision.
Best of luck and much blessings!

 

[Walter Raleigh]

It could conceivably happen with the upward trend, if OP gets a 515+ MCAT.

 

[Oldhorn]

Hey guys wanted to update you all.

Shortly after posting my wife and I found out she was pregnant. So we put things on hold for a year to move back home, had the baby while studying for the MCAT, and applied while she started teething...

I got a 503 on the MCAT
Undergrad GPA 3.1, PA school GPA 3.7
Still working hard & doing more teaching

I applied early decision to only one school down the road.

Interviewed late August.

Got accepted earlier today to start 2020 at a top 40 MD school.

Thanks for all the advice guys!

P.S.
@HomeSkool We are buying our third income property to help with cash flow, biking/taking the bus to work so we only pay for 1 car's insurance, and continue to count our little pennies each month

 

[Kardio]

Hey guys wanted to update you all.

Shortly after posting my wife and I found out she was pregnant. So we put things on hold for a year to move back home, had the baby while studying for the MCAT, and applied while she started teething...

I got a 503 on the MCAT
Undergrad GPA 3.1, PA school GPA 3.7
Still working hard & doing more teaching

I applied early decision to only one school down the road.

Interviewed late August.

Got accepted earlier today to start 2020 at a top 40 MD school.

Thanks for all the advice guys!

P.S.
@HomeSkool We are buying our third income property to help with cash flow, biking/taking the bus to work so we only pay for 1 car's insurance, and continue to count our little pennies each month

Goodluck! Thanks for updating this post.

The success with that 503 is the more surprising part of this story to me. I feel that something in your story must have strongly resonated with that school’s admissions’s faculty.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

Congrats! You did better than a lot of us expected us to, especially with the 503 MCAT. If I had to guess at the reason for your success: lots of clinical experience as a PA, a strong upward trend, and a decent reason for the low grades early on.

 

[Jappa]

Hey guys wanted to update you all.

Shortly after posting my wife and I found out she was pregnant. So we put things on hold for a year to move back home, had the baby while studying for the MCAT, and applied while she started teething...

I got a 503 on the MCAT
Undergrad GPA 3.1, PA school GPA 3.7
Still working hard & doing more teaching

I applied early decision to only one school down the road.

Interviewed late August.

Got accepted earlier today to start 2020 at a top 40 MD school.

Thanks for all the advice guys!

P.S.
@HomeSkool We are buying our third income property to help with cash flow, biking/taking the bus to work so we only pay for 1 car's insurance, and continue to count our little pennies each month

This is so awesome. Congrats to you and your family!

 

[Oldhorn]

Thanks guys.

I'll update the post at the end of each year.

Hopefully people with a lot of clinical background, financial goals, and a family feel encourage that medical school admission is more than a set of boxes/grades. Just like with patients, history matters...

My plan is still to work during school, will try and work-out some details to for a smooth/regular schedule. I can always go PRN or quit if it gets bad.

 

[thespitfire]

Great story - thanks for sharing!

 

[Zpak19]

Nice to see you proved the doubters above wrong. Best of luck, future MD!

 

[Oldhorn]

Quick update.

Finished M2 and currently in dedicated Step 1 studying. Anyone out there with significant clinical knowledge/experience will find medical school a little easier than most incoming undergraduate students. Plus being a little older helps with all the anxiety around medical school performance.

Time wise I probably spent 30-40hours a week on my classes/studies. I spent a significant amount of time with my family, cooked dinner most nights, and continued working (1 day/week + teaching + research/publishing).

I have really enjoyed the first 2 years of school, it's been awesome hitting the books again! But I am looking forward to being in the hospital & around patients again. Anyone out there that wants to do this and has a supporting significant other should definitely consider it!! Medical school is a lot of fun. The material goes a little deeper than PA school (which was very satisfying for me), but the pace is A LOT slower which really helps.

Good luck everyone on their journey! It's a wild ride

 

[EM03xx]

Quick update.

Finished M2 and currently in dedicated Step 1 studying. Anyone out there with significant clinical knowledge/experience will find medical school a little easier than most incoming undergraduate students. Plus being a little older helps with all the anxiety around medical school performance.

Time wise I probably spent 30-40hours a week on my classes/studies. I spent a significant amount of time with my family, cooked dinner most nights, and continued working (1 day/week + teaching + research/publishing).

I have really enjoyed the first 2 years of school, it's been awesome hitting the books again! But I am looking forward to being in the hospital & around patients again. Anyone out there that wants to do this and has a supporting significant other should definitely consider it!! Medical school is a lot of fun. The material goes a little deeper than PA school (which was very satisfying for me), but the pace is A LOT slower which really helps.

Good luck everyone on their journey! It's a wild ride

This is great to hear. I plan to make the same transition in the next few years. It sounds like you found a program with a schedule that fits your lifestyle very well. Any advice on choosing a program? I would definitely enjoy the school-life balance that you have. I know I want to avoid mandatory attendance policies, or programs which utilize what I call the death by powerpoint method of long boring lectures all day long (like my PA program).

 

[Oldhorn]

Last update to any PAs out there...

Med school was so much fun!! Got to learn a ton and had some very unique opportunities with amazing rotations and electives that allowed me to explore awesome areas in medicine. Becoming a doctor is definitely more of a journey then becoming a PA and along the way you are provided with unique experiences that make this scenic trip 100% worth it. I was lucky to do well academically which allowed me to work the first two years as a PA to continue supporting my family. I was also given a relatively flexible schedule the first 2 years and the 4th year of medical school, this allowed me to spend some quality time with my growing family!!! Something I wouldn't have been able to do working full time just grinding through life as a PA constantly working days/nights/weekends/holidays.

In the end I matched at my number #1 program in a competitive specialty and was able to be very picky when applying to residency. My past experience and unique opportunities definitely boosted my resume. Having a background in medicine set me apart from the rest of my class from day one, and this only compounded as the years moved along; for this I am very thankful. On the interview trail people were impressed by the "distance travelled" and we often got to talking more about life/work and the common experiences we shared along the way. Interviewers often closed with: "this was a very refreshing interview from the usual Q/A..."

Now the calm/oddly stressful "school" portion of my life is coming to an end, and the grueling residency training is on the way. I look forward to start making (little) money again and am excited about all the different rotations I'll be able to do as a resident. I can't wait to start!!!

Until then, I'll go back to spending time with my friends and family. This was an awesome 4 years and I hope my story serves as an encouragement for those wanting to go back. It will be very hard, but (as you can read through these posts) it is very much possible (unlike the nay sayers would have you believe .

If you want to go fast, go alone
If you want to go far, go together

Shoutout to my amazing wife, three kids, and incredible friends and family that helped along the way. I couldn't have done this alone.

 

[VelmaBoots]

This is refreshing to hear. I’m getting ready to transition from NP to med student this fall. I’ve had a lot of people ask me why I don’t get “credit” for my past degree / experience. But I think I will. Like you, I applied to just 1 school (with a 504 MCAT —> their lowest accepted score in years) but I’m anticipating that the “distance traveled” will help make med school a little easier. Also, I was hoping to hear someone say that they didn’t have to study 60+ hours / week. I’d like to see my family some the next 4 years 😂

Congrats to you and good luck in residency!!