Pain management

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allendo

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I have a question I posted in FP but no replies. A FP doc in my town has now opened a pain clinic. He is board certifed from the amercian academy of pain management. Does anyone know if he can do the same procedures as Anesth or PM&R????

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you can't be board certified by the american academy of pain management because it isn't a board certifying organization.

you can be board certified by the american board of pain medicine
or through the subspecialty certification process of PM&R or Anesthesia...

the american academy of pain management is an organization that charges you a fee to be a member ("diplomate") and charges a fee to "accredit" your clinic.... it is a money making machine without much true meaning or power, other than to confuse patients.

Anybody can do any procedure they want in their office - most ambulatory surgery centers won't allow that nor would hospitals. But as long as it is in your own office and you can convince the patient, you can do a CABG or a craniotomy or anything your heart desires.... However, Medicare might not reimburse you - and your patients won't always be well served...

there is a growing industry (especially among internists and FPs who make very little money in their outpatient clinics) of FPs and internists who are turning their clinics into pain clinics so that they can make money off of injections.... However, frequently these injections are useless because they aren't done under fluoroscopy - they are doing blinded steroid injections, facet injections - without documented benefit to the patient. On top of that, some actually do buy fluoroscopes (so they can charge more) and yet have only the training from a weekend seminar for this!!!!

While that FP may have increased his revenue stream it is only a matter of time before he gets into some trouble ....
 
Tenesma said:
While that FP may have increased his revenue stream it is only a matter of time before he gets into some trouble ....

Not if he is only medically managing pain. I know an FP that has a very solid pain clientele. Some would argue that these are just addicts, but they are also patients that are not well treated (in my opinion) by advanced pain docs, due to the fact that they are not candidates for higher-end procedures.
 
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i still think it is a mistake for pain management to be provided by somebody who isn't trained in pain management.... and trust me, family practice residency ain't gonna do the job.

while it may be great to be a prescription writer for chronic pain patients, don't these patients deserve to know that there are other options? Somebody with interstitial cystitis who is on huge doses of narcotics may never find out that a sacral stimulator can fix their pain.... etc...

Now if the FP sends these patients to a pain doctor for a consult to make sure nothing is left out in their care, and then continues to be the primary prescribing doctor for that patient - FANTASTIC...
 
I did a pain rotation and except for the money I can't, for the life of me, understand why anyone would want to go into this field. No offense to anyone who's chosen it, but the patient population you've got to deal with (the endless turnstile of little old ladies with bad backs and drug seekers) is just depressing. Not to mention the fact that your lifetime exposure to ambient x-radiation, even with protection, is staggering. I'd like to see a longitutidinal study of pain management specialists and cancer rates, especially the particular nasty hematopoeitic cancers like leukemia.

If you want to do pain management so you can afford that third house and/or the Lambourghini, more power to you. Thank heavens there are people like you who want to expose yourself to an annoying, frustration patient population with a substantial increase in occupational hazards for a few extra bucks.

-Skip
 
skip - many anesthesia residents feel the same way you do...

1) patient population: the patient population you have during your residency exposure is different from what you have in the private practice world... you choose your patients to a certain extent. If for example you aren't interested in taking care of drug seekers, you can have a strict NO NARCOTIC prescription rule. You will make recommendations for their further narcotic management, but you won't prescribe narcotics ever (except for stim/pump patients who have mechanical failure and are waiting to get back to the OR). This policy has had amazing results at some of the private clinics I used to hang out at - and it is nice to see patients who came sincerely interested in pain management versus more narcotics. In fact, some pain docs I know have become so specialized that they only see shoulder pain/injuries in athletes (and they can make a living off it)

2) radiation exposure: the amount of radiation from fluoroscopy is pretty minimal. Pain docs are FAR behind interventional radiologists or interventional cardiologists - because there is minimal continuous fluoro time. And the machines are getting better and better with less and less scatter. Most of the cancer studies were based on radiation exposures in atomic bomb victims - and there is no evidence that their offspring had increased risk of cancer, there was minimal increase in solid tumor incidence compared to control groups with hematologic and thyroid Ca high up there - but those exposures were very high dose over a short period of time. Which is very different from very low dose over a long time.... In fact, some argue that pilots actually get more radiation exposure during their career than an interventional cardiologist - which makes most pain physicians feel pretty safe.
 
Skip Intro said:
I did a pain rotation and except for the money I can't, for the life of me, understand why anyone would want to go into this field. No offense to anyone who's chosen it, but the patient population you've got to deal with (the endless turnstile of little old ladies with bad backs and drug seekers) is just depressing. Not to mention the fact that your lifetime exposure to ambient x-radiation, even with protection, is staggering. I'd like to see a longitutidinal study of pain management specialists and cancer rates, especially the particular nasty hematopoeitic cancers like leukemia.

If you want to do pain management so you can afford that third house and/or the Lambourghini, more power to you. Thank heavens there are people like you who want to expose yourself to an annoying, frustration patient population with a substantial increase in occupational hazards for a few extra bucks.

-Skip

As a primary care doc I can tell you I sent all of my drug seekers to pain docs. A lot of anxiety is treated with percoct out there.Pain specialist can usually weed out the drug seekers. I think that a pain practice can be rewarding. I derived a great deal of satisfaction from easing the suffering of
patients dying from cancer. That said, I would not specialize in pain management. The one time that I felt concerned for my safety in my office involved an ex-con with chronic back and knee pain. The guy would walk in the office with no appointment and demand refills. I had to "ease out," of the doctor patient relationship with him. patients have claimed that their meds were stolen. I learned that oxycontin can be injected, smoked and sorted. I stopped prescribing that medication. It is amazing to me that an fp would open a pain clinic. Most that practice probably consist of writing scripts for pain meds. A lot of docs do not realize the seriousness of writng for pain medications. You are held responsible if the patient harms themselves with the medication that you prescribed. Doctors have even been charged with negligent homicide. Periodic tox screens must be perperformed to insure that the med is not being diverted.

An fp pain clinic would consist of a bunch of narcs being supplied by a doc.
I am not against the use of pain meds for patients with an identifiable cause for their pain. The drug seekers have made it difficult to treat even legitimate pain. Virginia prosecutes docs that they feel has been negligent in prescribing pain meds.

I use to share office space with an anesthesia guy who specialized in pain. He grew to dislike some of the patients and would drop them for whinning too much for early refills.

I have never had a patient loose their bp medication, well okay once. I cannot tell you how many times pain meds have been lost and fallen into the toilet or been stolen.

I enjoyed treating "real pain." Medicine is all about easing suffering.

A doc who opens a pain clinic and is not trained can be accused of practicing outside of the scope of his training.Pain control is more than just pushing pills it involves psychologists,PT,neuro,ortho and surgery. From time to time the initial problem that caused the pain visit must be revisited to see if the problem has resolved.

A patient can die during surgery. Chemo can take you out. The only doc that I read of being criminally charged was a pain doc who "lost" a patient.

CambieMD
 
Tenesma said:
there is a growing industry (especially among internists and FPs who make very little money in their outpatient clinics) of FPs and internists who are turning their clinics into pain clinics so that they can make money off of injections.... However, frequently these injections are useless because they aren't done under fluoroscopy - they are doing blinded steroid injections, facet injections - without documented benefit to the patient. On top of that, some actually do buy fluoroscopes (so they can charge more) and yet have only the training from a weekend seminar for this!!!!

I've provided a few links to articles from Regional Anesthesia and Pain Medicine discussing physicians practicing Pain Medicine without fellowship training:

1. A pain physician on every corner?
2. The injectionists
3. Pain medicine and the injectionist: We need to preserve our specialty
 
CambieMD said:
As a primary care doc I can tell you I sent all of my drug seekers to pain docs. A lot of anxiety is treated with percoct out there.Pain specialist can usually weed out the drug seekers. I think that a pain practice can be rewarding. I derived a great deal of satisfaction from easing the suffering of
patients dying from cancer. That said, I would not specialize in pain management. The one time that I felt concerned for my safety in my office involved an ex-con with chronic back and knee pain. The guy would walk in the office with no appointment and demand refills. I had to "ease out," of the doctor patient relationship with him. patients have claimed that their meds were stolen. I learned that oxycontin can be injected, smoked and sorted. I stopped prescribing that medication. It is amazing to me that an fp would open a pain clinic. Most that practice probably consist of writing scripts for pain meds. A lot of docs do not realize the seriousness of writng for pain medications. You are held responsible if the patient harms themselves with the medication that you prescribed. Doctors have even been charged with negligent homicide. Periodic tox screens must be perperformed to insure that the med is not being diverted.

An fp pain clinic would consist of a bunch of narcs being supplied by a doc.
I am not against the use of pain meds for patients with an identifiable cause for their pain. The drug seekers have made it difficult to treat even legitimate pain. Virginia prosecutes docs that they feel has been negligent in prescribing pain meds.

I use to share office space with an anesthesia guy who specialized in pain. He grew to dislike some of the patients and would drop them for whinning too much for early refills.

I have never had a patient loose their bp medication, well okay once. I cannot tell you how many times pain meds have been lost and fallen into the toilet or been stolen.

I enjoyed treating "real pain." Medicine is all about easing suffering.

A doc who opens a pain clinic and is not trained can be accused of practicing outside of the scope of his training.Pain control is more than just pushing pills it involves psychologists,PT,neuro,ortho and surgery. From time to time the initial problem that caused the pain visit must be revisited to see if the problem has resolved.

A patient can die during surgery. Chemo can take you out. The only doc that I read of being criminally charged was a pain doc who "lost" a patient.

CambieMD

Yeah Dude,
And theres alot of corruption out there too...recent big bust in New Orleans of several "pain clinics", which were just drug dispensing clinics, owned by a nurse and her lawyer husband- they employed doctors- 3 or 4- who would see over 100 patients a day- even charged for therapy- get this- sitting/lying on a heating pad for 15 minutes. The main objective? To profit off distribution of the, as the media coined it, "Holy Trinity": Oxycodone, xanax, and soma. Federal agents infiltrated it over time (undercover), then busted the whole ring- doctors went to jail, owner's house had over 1.5 million in CASH stashed away (kinda like the movie Blow, huh?), and the owners had several million dollars in accounts that were frozen.
Watch out, Mr Family Practice-turned-pain-doctor-after-weekend-seminar-dude.....one of your patients is probably MIAMI VICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😱
 
:horns:
jetproppilot said:
Yeah Dude,
And theres alot of corruption out there too...recent big bust in New Orleans of several "pain clinics", which were just drug dispensing clinics, owned by a nurse and her lawyer husband- they employed doctors- 3 or 4- who would see over 100 patients a day- even charged for therapy- get this- sitting/lying on a heating pad for 15 minutes. The main objective? To profit off distribution of the, as the media coined it, "Holy Trinity": Oxycodone, xanax, and soma. Federal agents infiltrated it over time (undercover), then busted the whole ring- doctors went to jail, owner's house had over 1.5 million in CASH stashed away (kinda like the movie Blow, huh?), and the owners had several million dollars in accounts that were frozen.
Watch out, Mr Family Practice-turned-pain-doctor-after-weekend-seminar-dude.....one of your patients is probably MIAMI VICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😱

book em Dan-O :laugh: :horns:
 
I've rotated with several pain docs when I was considering anes and I was disenchanted by the overall approach to the patient. Much like someone who is accused of child molestation, a "chronic pain patient" is considered malingering (guilty) until proven organic (innocent) and that disturbed the hell out of me.

Of course, this pervasive mindset didn't prevent the pain docs from shooting high-priced epidurals all day and D/C'g all the po meds. 😉

At my hospital, I've heard the pain docs being referred to as the "defense lawyers of the medical profession." This may be a stretch, but it does seem that the field helps all too few people while earning ridiculous salaries.
 
Would a Pain Doc administer anti-inflamatory drugs as well or do they mainly stick to narcotics?
 
There are indeed a significant number of anesthesiologists dabbling in Pain Medicine, but the care rendered is often substandard. Interlaminar blind ESI continue to be performed in spite of numerous studies demonstrating a lack of accuracy in placement of such injections. Fellowship trained pain physicians are often those who have watched patients sleep for 4 years then are suddenly vaulted into the outpatient world of pain medicine. They usually are not taught any business skills about running a pain center, have little knowledge regarding billing, and often have sub-par interventional skills. The quality of pain medicine fellowships and experiences are all over the map. How do I know: I teach literally hundreds of physicians who have matriculated from such programs and have conducted national surveys on the subject.
It is time to ditch the one year doctor training program and develop a real pain medicine residency.
 
"Somebody with interstitial cystitis who is on huge doses of narcotics may never find out that a sacral stimulator can fix their pain.... etc..."

Sacral nerve stimulators are approved for urgency and frequency, not for pain. In some individuals they may help with pain, but they are not the norm.

Amanda
 
you can't be board certified by the american academy of pain management because it isn't a board certifying organization.

the american academy of pain management is an organization that charges you a fee to be a member ("diplomate") and charges a fee to "accredit" your clinic.... it is a money making machine without much true meaning or power, other than to confuse patients.

there is a growing industry (especially among internists and FPs who make very little money in their outpatient clinics) of FPs and internists who are turning their clinics into pain clinics so that they can make money off of injections.... However, frequently these injections are useless because they aren't done under fluoroscopy - they are doing blinded steroid injections, facet injections - without documented benefit to the patient. On top of that, some actually do buy fluoroscopes (so they can charge more) and yet have only the training from a weekend seminar for this!!!!

Just like the CRNA's do. Just a weekend class, a couple thousand for "tuition", and you're a pain practitioner.

http://napeseminars.com/

The current AANA president is a FAAPM practitioner.
 
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