pain medicine still an anesthesiology stronghold?

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MedicinePowder

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i visisted the pain medicine forum and it's replete with physiatrists, out-numbering anesth pain docs, some even militant proclaiming pm&r as the ideal base residency for pain fellowships. wonder if this is a new thing or if this is an ongoing turf battle. i'm interested in pain through the anesth route, but now curious what the future trends might be.

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MedicinePowder said:
i visisted the pain medicine forum and it's replete with physiatrists, out-numbering anesth pain docs, some even militant proclaiming pm&r as the ideal base residency for pain fellowships. wonder if this is a new thing or if this is an ongoing turf battle. i'm interested in pain through the anesth route, but now curious what the future trends might be.
80-90% of pain fellowships are run by anesthesia, and they favor their own, so i don't really think its even slightly an issue. Gas is by far the best and easiest way to get into pain. They cant touch us on interventional procedures. Sure they may be able to elicit a better h/p, but thats no fun now is it. Rest assured. The competition for pain fellowships through pm&r must be rough. hope this helps. :cool:
 
MedicinePowder said:
some proclaiming pm&r as the ideal base residency for pain fellowships.

One of those who proclaims this on the pain board is a very skilled and experienced Anesthesia pain doc.


wonder if this is a new thing or if this is an ongoing turf battle.

Ongoing, and getting worse.

Many Physiatrists work in Ortho or Neurosurg groups. When they can keep the procedures in the practice, they stop referring to pain groups. This upsets some practicioners.
 
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miamidc said:
80-90% of pain fellowships are run by anesthesia, and they favor their own
Agree.

Gas is by far the best and easiest way to get into pain.
Easiest yes.

Clarify what you mean by "best"

They cant touch us on interventional procedures
:laugh:

Sure they may be able to elicit a better h/p, but thats no fun now is it.
So in other words, they should do a diligent workup and make a diagnosis so you can do the procedure. Yeah, that'll be the day.

The competition for pain fellowships through pm&r must be rough.
It sure is, which is why I'm glad that most of the progressive PM&R residencies offer interventional training during residency and that the new ACGME pain fellowship guildlines require Physiatrists, Neurologists and Psychiatrists on every university pain faculty.
 
Interventional Pain has been handed away to the other fields by Anesthesia, just like we handed Anesthesia to CRNAs in many ways...

The cat is out of the bag, and everybody sees how lucrative the field is... what can you do about it? nothing...

The long-term best thing would be a Pain Residency that would incorporate the best of all the fields to provide a wellrounded physician who isn't filled with unethical sleaze....
 
MedicinePowder said:
i visisted the pain medicine forum and it's replete with physiatrists, out-numbering anesth pain docs, some even militant proclaiming pm&r as the ideal base residency for pain fellowships. wonder if this is a new thing or if this is an ongoing turf battle. i'm interested in pain through the anesth route, but now curious what the future trends might be.

I think that each discipline brings something unique to the field. That's one of the most interesting things about a field like Pain Medicine is the variety of patients and procedures. I've worked with internventional pain physicians from all the base specialties---anesthesia, PM&R, and Neuro---and have them all to be competent with their individual strengths and weaknesses.

New ACGME guidelines stipulate that *ANY* ACGME-approved pain fellowship, regardless of the department in which it is sponsored, must be interdisciplinary and must consider candidates from all specialties. I exclusively interviewed and selected an anesthesia department for the benefits of "cross-training" in a different discipline and I encourage others interested in Pain Medicine to consider this as well. It really helps round out one's training.

Anesthesia certainly pioneered many of the interventional modalities used in pain medicine and was first to start fellowships. However, other disciplines have also been contributing much to the field as well. At the end of the day, it's not about Turf but what is best for the patient. Some anesthesia programs are still "luke-warm" to the idea of training non-anesthesiologists, but since they don't have a choice anymore it will be interesting to see how things evolve. Ultimately, I think it will help further the field.
 
Tenesma said:
Interventional Pain has been handed away to the other fields by Anesthesia, just like we handed Anesthesia to CRNAs in many ways...

The cat is out of the bag, and everybody sees how lucrative the field is... what can you do about it? nothing...

The long-term best thing would be a Pain Residency that would incorporate the best of all the fields to provide a wellrounded physician who isn't filled with unethical sleaze....
Agree.

Support the AAPM in their efforts to create a pain residency.

In general, those who oppose are more concerned with their wallets than what is best for their patients or the advancement of pain medicine.
 
drusso said:
Some anesthesia programs are still "luke-warm" to the idea of training non-anesthesiologists, but since they don't have a choice anymore it will be interesting to see how things evolve. Ultimately, I think it will help further the field.

Maybe I'm a bit cynical about politics in medicine (weird considering I'm still a resident), but I don't know, you can't really force programs to consider applicants from certain specialties, unless of course x number of spots are officially reserved.

I think a pain residency is a much better alternative. :thumbup:
 
Disciple said:
Maybe I'm a bit cynical about politics in medicine (weird considering I'm still a resident), but I don't know, you can't really force programs to consider applicants from certain specialties, unless of course x number of spots are officially reserved.

I think a pain residency is a much better alternative. :thumbup:


Since you are a PMR resident I am curious as to what you guys actually do?
Not to be disrespectful of your specialty or anything but for the most part, at my school, which has one of the top PMR program in the nation, the residents really do nothing. They have PT and OT handle the rehab issues and medicine to handle the medical issues. They just seem to watch the patients and consult everyone for everything else.

I laugh when they consult us for BS things like increasing BUN/Creat when the patient is clearly volume depleted and all they need to do is give the patient some fluids.

Can you give me a concrete example of what you actually do, for example, what can you really offer a patient with C7 ASIA with tetraplegia besides babysitting and pain meds?
 
Disciple said:
....

In general, those who oppose are more concerned with their wallets than what is best for their patients or the advancement of pain medicine.

ahh...the old trick of the trade, "we want what's best for teh patient and the advancement of medicine". BS

I've seen on numerous occasions/consults what a PMnR doc does....let me tell you the old saying at my hosp is this, "who's going to die first, the PMnR doc or the patient". Why you ask? For the most part they are sedentary and really just pimp out the PT/OT's.

And please, the only reason that PMnR docs (as well as Psych, neuro, etc) got into pain was STRICTLY for the $$$$$

Anesthesiologists are probably the most qualified to do pain. Who else is better equipped/trained to dx and tx complications of interventional pain procedures?? ESPECIALLY in a private practice setting.

And in terms of 'advancing' pain medicine, there has been MUCH that anesthesiologists have contributed to the field. I do agree that a multi-disciplinary approach interms of (psych) is important as pain is not just a physical sx, but also a emotional one.

But seriously, those of you guys that say that you're doing this for 'helping advance pain med, etc BS BS BS" give us a break. Although some of us are MS4's here, none of us are that STUPID. :laugh:
 
toughlife said:
Since you are a PMR resident I am curious as to what you guys actually do?
Not to be disrespectful of your specialty or anything but for the most part, at my school, which has one of the top PMR program in the nation, the residents really do nothing. They have PT and OT handle the rehab issues and medicine to handle the medical issues. They just seem to watch the patients and consult everyone for everything else.

I laugh when they consult us for BS things like increasing BUN/Creat when the patient is clearly volume depleted and all they need to do is give the patient some fluids.

Can you give me a concrete example of what you actually do, for example, what can you really offer a patient with C7 ASIA with tetraplegia besides babysitting and pain meds?

I'm assuming you go to Northwestern then. It's a shame, you should do a full PM&R rotation before you decide that Physiatrists "don't do anything".

A short list of some things Physiatrists do for the spinal cord injured patient in an acute care setting:

Diagnose and Treat-autonomic dysreflexia, neurogenic bowel and bladder, immobilization hypercalcemia, heterotopic ossification, DVTs/PEs, spasticity, orthostatic hypotension, depression and neuropathic pain syndromes.
Expedient diagnosis of syrinx formation and Charcot joints.

Inpt procedures we may perform include urodynamics/CMGs (including interpretation), EMGs to indentify candidates for Phrenic pacing, bedside debridement and proper management of pressure ulcers.

PM&R programs generally have less residents than necessary to cover rehab services for an entire university hospital. Residents carry over 20 pts in addition to consults at some programs. To micromanage without consulting is near impossible.

Training during PM&R residency (my experience anyway) as it relates to pain medicine and outpt pain practice:

Interventional spine clinic, sports med clinic, general orthopedic clinic (peripheral joint injections, botox, peripheral nerve blocks), radiology, 6 months EMG w/ minimum 200 studies performed and interpreted, chronic pain clinic (functional restoration/narcotics).

It's unfortunate that many others share your attitude. This is the reason this "turf" issue exists instead of a collegial collaboration between specialties.
 
ThinkFast007 said:
ahh...the old trick of the trade, "we want what's best for teh patient and the advancement of medicine". BS

But seriously, those of you guys that say that you're doing this for 'helping advance pain med, etc BS BS BS" give us a break. Although some of us are MS4's here, none of us are that STUPID. :laugh:

I think you're wrong here. I want good compensation just as much the next guy, but I also enjoy doing procedures and want to be involved in the development of new technologies, gene therapy for disc degeneration, etc.
Physiatrists sit on the boards of ISIS and ASIPP. You think they contribute their time because they have nothing better to do?

And please, the only reason that PMnR docs (as well as Psych, neuro, etc) got into pain was STRICTLY for the $$$$$
That's funny you should say that considering PM&R docs are more conservative in their approach, thereby doing fewer injections and making less money.

Anesthesiologists are probably the most qualified to do pain. Who else is better equipped/trained to dx and tx complications of interventional pain procedures?? ESPECIALLY in a private practice setting.
Physiatrists are probably the most qualified to diagnose and conservatively manage musculoskeletal, neuropathic and spinal pain, ESPECIALLY in a private practice setting.

And in terms of 'advancing' pain medicine, there has been MUCH that anesthesiologists have contributed to the field.
No ****, I never said they haven't.
 
It would be nice if some attendings with experience would contibute instead of these ignorant med student responses.
 
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knowing i may sound idealistic and naive, i think the new breed of future anesthesiologist will take the field by the neck and set it straight. the field is getting diluted by crnas and now one of the two specialties seen as fallbacks in anesthesiology is being taken over. i've met the caliber of anesthesiology applicants during my interview and i'm confident the field will only get stronger and the advancement of its fellowship specialties will glow in the hands of anesthesiology-trained physicans. if other future or current anesthsiologist don't think the same, then i might as well wait out a year and do family medicine.
 
Disciple said:
I'm assuming you go to Northwestern then. It's a shame, you should do a full PM&R rotation before you decide that Physiatrists "don't do anything".

I thought about it but decided to do cardiology, pulmonary, SICU and nephrology rotations instead.

A short list of some things Physiatrists do for the spinal cord injured patient in an acute care setting:

Diagnose and Treat-autonomic dysreflexia, neurogenic bowel and bladder, immobilization hypercalcemia, heterotopic ossification, DVTs/PEs, spasticity, orthostatic hypotension, depression and neuropathic pain syndromes.
Expedient diagnosis of syrinx formation and Charcot joints.


Most if not all issues managed by medicine and neurology.


Inpt procedures we may perform include urodynamics/CMGs (including interpretation), EMGs to indentify candidates for Phrenic pacing, bedside debridement and proper management of pressure ulcers.

Managed by neurology, urology and surgery.

PM&R programs generally have less residents than necessary to cover rehab services for an entire university hospital. Residents carry over 20 pts in addition to consults at some programs. To micromanage without consulting is near impossible.

Training during PM&R residency (my experience anyway) as it relates to pain medicine and outpt pain practice:

Interventional spine clinic, sports med clinic, general orthopedic clinic (peripheral joint injections, botox, peripheral nerve blocks), radiology, 6 months EMG w/ minimum 200 studies performed and interpreted, chronic pain clinic (functional restoration/narcotics).

Managed by ortho-spine, neurology and anesthesia.


So what do you guys really do?
 
Disciple said:
It would be nice if some attendings with experience would contibute instead of these ignorant med student responses.


You mean well informed.
 
You're wrong on all counts.

How do I know?

Because I've managed every condition I listed during my short residency.

Why would I consult for things I can do myself? It all depends what kind of facility I'm at and what my census is for the day.

I was really trying to keep any insulting tone out of this. But since you seem determined to prove that PM&R sucks, let me tell you that my pain training has also involved a rotation in an anesthesia pain clinic (with an ACGME fellowship). During my two months in clinic I spent all day/every day correcting misdiagnoses/mismanagement of radics, stenosis, facet syndrome, CRPS, you name it.

BTW, I love how you list three specialties to cover every skill set I mention. Patients love that, y'know, being shuffled around to multiple office visits over the course of a couple months instead of having their problem diagnosed and treated in one visit.
 
Disciple said:
You're wrong on all counts.

How do I know?

Because I've managed every condition I listed during my short residency.

Why would I consult for things I can do myself? It all depends what kind of facility I'm at and what my census is for the day.

I was really trying to keep any insulting tone out of this. But since you seem determined to prove that PM&R sucks, let me tell you that pain training has also involved a rotation in an anesthesia pain clinic (with an ACGME fellowship). During my two months in clinic I spent all day/every day correcting misdiagnoses/mismanagement of radics, stenosis, facet syndrome, CRPS, you name it.


Sure I am. You know your specialty is superfluos. Don't come in here pretending that PMR is the ****. It ain't.

Why do you think they call it Plenty of Money and Relaxation? Cuz they get paid for doing ****.
 
toughlife said:
You mean well informed.

Not in your case.

If you knew what you were talking about you would know that the services you listed either don't know how or have no desire to go to the rehab floor to manage such conditions.
 
Disciple said:
Not in your case.

If you knew what you were talking about you would know that the services you listed either don't know how or have no desire to go to the rehab floor to manage such conditions.


I would like to hear you say to a neurologist that they don't know jack about EMGs or autonomic dysreflexia or to a urologists that they don't know jack about urogenic bladder and such.
 
toughlife said:
Sure I am. You know your specialty is superfluos. Don't come in here pretending that PMR is the ****. It ain't.

Why do you think they call it Plenty of Money and Relaxation? Cuz they get paid for doing ****.


So next you're going to tell me EM sucks. Then FP. Anything else?

I'm done arguing with you.

Bottom line is this.

Physiatry doing interventional pain management is here to stay. We can provide the entire array of diagnostic and management services for our patients, and yes that includes the injection, vertebroplasty, pump, stim, sympathetic block, IDET, etc. We will continue to do this in spine centers, ASCs and our own offices.

There is nothing you can do about it.
 
Disciple said:
So next you're going to tell me EM sucks. Then FP. Anything else?

I'm done arguing with you.

Bottom line is this.

Physiatry doing interventional pain management is here to stay. We can provide the entire array of diagnostic and management services for our patients, and yes that includes the injection, vertebroplasty, pump, stim, sympathetic block, IDET, etc. We will continue to do this in spine centers, ASCs and our own offices.

There is nothing you can do about it.

Of course you are done. Cuz you have no argument. Now get the f*ck out of here.
 
toughlife said:
I would like to hear you say to a neurologist that they don't know jack about EMGs or autonomic dysreflexia or to a urologists that they don't know jack about urogenic bladder and such.

I did my EMG training with Physiatry and Neurology, with rotations in Ortho and Urology. So yes, I know exactly which cases they feel most comfortable with and which ones they do not.

I mean, my Neurology attendings thought I was so stupid they asked me to lecture to their fellows on spine and musculoskeletal pain/diagnosis.
 
toughlife said:
Of course you are done. Cuz you have no argument. Now get the f*ck out of here.

:laugh:

Better rest up for intern year buddy.
 
toughlife said:
Since you are a PMR resident I am curious as to what you guys actually do?
Not to be disrespectful of your specialty or anything but for the most part, at my school, which has one of the top PMR program in the nation, the residents really do nothing. They have PT and OT handle the rehab issues and medicine to handle the medical issues. They just seem to watch the patients and consult everyone for everything else.

I laugh when they consult us for BS things like increasing BUN/Creat when the patient is clearly volume depleted and all they need to do is give the patient some fluids.

Can you give me a concrete example of what you actually do, for example, what can you really offer a patient with C7 ASIA with tetraplegia besides babysitting and pain meds?

Look: In the hospital setting, primarily what physiatrists do is direct resources. It's a little known fact that inpatient rehabilitation is the second most expensive (and *THE* most labor-intensive) area of the hospital. Only the ICU costs more on a per day basis. At my institution, comprehensive inpatient rehabilitaiton costs $3K per day (not including physician fees). Not everyone requires the same level of medical intervention and rehabilitation for their disability. It's up to the physiatrist to decide what they in fact do need. But, if you want to see where the "PM&R Magic" happens, it is more in the outpatient venue.

In the hospital, we function as the primary medical service for patients with devasting neurological injuries and impairments---yes, that means that we do a lot of babysitting. We handle all the "crap" that no one wants to do (or that general medicine is too freaked out to do) but that these patients need in order to maximize their functional outcome. We watch for neurological decline and complications. We treat pain. We deal with the whole "adjustment to disability" issue. In short, physiatrists manage disability. Do you need to be physiatrist to babysit disabled people? Probably not. Do you need to be an anesthesiologist to do a MAC for a breast biopsy or hernia repair? Ditto.

After a patient acquires new cervical tetraplegia and has their spine stabilized, the neurosurgeons really have nothing left to offer. I'm not slamming neurosurgeons, but that's the reality. The neurologists are completely unintersted in the situation---there is nothing left to diagnose. Assuming that there are no associated secondary injuries, other hospital services have nothing to contribute. But, this person is still severely disabled, not "whole," still requires medical resources and care, and is not ready to go home by any stretch of the imagination. So, they need rehabilitation and they need long-term follow-up:

1) Equipment
2) Education
3) Re-training
4) Therapy
5) Home modification
6) Long term bowel and bladder management
7) Usually medico-legal issues out the whazzoo

Rehabilitation is a different model of care than traditional "curative" medicine so it takes a little getting used to in order to understand what physiatrists "do." It's the epitome of "humpty-dumpty medicine" where after all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put humpty back together again, someone got a PM&R consult...Or, put another way, it's not so much about saving lives (although any PM&R resident can relate numerous stories of codes, acute strokes, "missed" aortic dissections, tension pnuemos, etc on the rehab unit) as it is about saving futures.

All of which gives physiatrists a unique perspective about managing and treating painful conditions. It's hard to believe that some pain doc would certify a 45 year old woman with fibromyalgia as "completely disabled" when in any given day in your spinal cord injury clinic you see dozens of quads and para becoming productive members of society despite significant hurdles. Rent Murderball and see rehab in action.
 
drusso said:
Look: In the hospital setting, primarily what physiatrists do is direct resources. It's a little known fact that inpatient rehabilitation is the second most expensive (and *THE* most labor-intensive) area of the hospital. Only the ICU costs more on a per day basis. At my institution, comprehensive inpatient rehabilitaiton costs $3K per day (not including physician fees). Not everyone requires the same level of medical intervention and rehabilitation for their disability. It's up to the physiatrist to decide what they in fact do need. But, if you want to see where the "PM&R Magic" happens, it is more in the outpatient venue.

In the hospital, we function as the primary medical service for patients with devasting neurological injuries and impairments---yes, that means that we do a lot of babysitting. We handle all the "crap" that no one wants to do (or that general medicine is too freaked out to do) but that these patients need in order to maximize their functional outcome. We watch for neurological decline and complications. We treat pain. We deal with the whole "adjustment to disability" issue. In short, physiatrists manage disability. Do you need to be physiatrist to babysit disabled people? Probably not. Do you need to be an anesthesiologist to do a MAC for a breast biopsy or hernia repair? Ditto.

After a patient acquires new cervical tetraplegia and has their spine stabilized, the neurosurgeons really have nothing left to offer. I'm not slamming neurosurgeons, but that's the reality. The neurologists are completely unintersted in the situation---there is nothing left to diagnose. Assuming that there are no associated secondary injuries, other hospital services have nothing to contribute. But, this person is still severely disabled, not "whole," still requires medical resources and care, and is not ready to go home by any stretch of the imagination. So, they need rehabilitation and they need long-term follow-up:

1) Equipment
2) Education
3) Re-training
4) Therapy
5) Home modification
6) Long term bowel and bladder management
7) Usually medico-legal issues out the whazzoo

Rehabilitation is a different model of care than traditional "curative" medicine so it takes a little getting used to in order to understand what physiatrists "do." It's the epitome of "humpty-dumpty medicine" where after all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put humpty back together again, someone got a PM&R consult...Or, put another way, it's not so much about saving lives (although any PM&R resident can relate numerous stories of codes, acute strokes, "missed" aortic dissections, tension pnuemos, etc on the rehab unit) as it is about saving futures.

All of which gives physiatrists a unique perspective about managing and treating painful conditions. It's hard to believe that some pain doc would certify a 45 year old woman with fibromyalgia as "completely disabled" when in any given day in your spinal cord injury clinic you see dozens of quads and para becoming productive members of society despite significant hurdles. Rent Murderball and see rehab in action.

I have much repect for your field. But I wholly believe that pain is quickly becoming a turf war. You guys want to do for the same reasons everyone else does. You know what those reasons are. Problem is, we Gas people are sick of others trying to nest in a traditional Gas environment. First CRNAs, now enchrochment by you guys. Bottom line, if you are PMR get in while you can, cause the new breed is not going to give our proffesion away. And noone can TOUCH US with interventional procedures, I dont care what anyone says.
 
miamidc said:
I have much repect for your field. But I wholly believe that pain is quickly becoming a turf war. You guys want to do for the same reasons everyone else does. You know what those reasons are. Problem is, we Gas people are sick of others trying to nest in a traditional Gas environment. First CRNAs, now enchrochment by you guys. Bottom line, if you are PMR get in while you can, cause the new breed is not going to give our proffesion away. And noone can TOUCH US with interventional procedures, I dont care what anyone says.

I think that the point you're missing is that *NO ONE* own the field of pain medicine. It owns itself. Moreover, the new breed of pain physician is going to be aggressively interdisciplinary because that is what the evidence base supports. Especially with the coming changes in "pay for performance," any pain physician who is not aggressively interdisciplinary simply won't be getting paid for what they do:


Pay for performance

What is pain medicine FAQ?

ACGME Impact Statement for Revision of Training in Pain Medicine
 
I find it interesting that the criticisms made on this thread about PM&R are the ones we sometimes unfairly hear about Anesthesia. Examples include:

1. Medical students who go into Anesthesia are in it for the money and are the ones who couldn't get into Radiology.
2. If you listen to some of the surgeons, Anesthesiologists don't do anything but put their patients to sleep and then sit around doing nothing.
3. CRNAs are the ones that do all the work.

I think all of you should worry less about PM&R and worry more about CRNAs who now have their own interventional pain fellowship and are starting to practice without physician supervision. Specialties who lack the proper training are also trying to get into the field of interventional pain with a few weekend courses here and there. Even within Anesthesia, there are clearly people who shouldn't be practicing because their only exposure to pain was the 4-6 weeks they spent divided between the clinic, PACU, and the acute pain service.

My opinion is that the only people who should be practicing interventional pain are physicians who have completed an ACGME-accredited pain fellowship. In fact, some hospitals won't give you privileges unless you have done a fellowship or will limit which procedure you can do to interlaminar epidurals. If someone has done a fellowship, then I don't really have a problem with them practicing pain medicine irregardless of their background. Psychiatry is technically allowed to do a pain fellowship and I've met lots of Psychiatry residents who want to do interventional pain, but it is nearly impossible for them to get a fellowship. The responsibility of selecting the right candidate for a fellowship is up to the program director. There is more to think about than just "protecting Anesthesia". I think the greater concern should be over those practicing interventional pain without a medical degree or PCPs doing these blocks after taking a weekend cadaver course. These are the people that are truly hurting our field and patients as well.
 
M said:
I find it interesting that the criticisms made on this thread about PM&R are the ones we sometimes unfairly hear about Anesthesia. Examples include:

1. Medical students who go into Anesthesia are in it for the money and are the ones who couldn't get into Radiology.
2. If you listen to some of the surgeons, Anesthesiologists don't do anything but put their patients to sleep and then sit around doing nothing.
3. CRNAs are the ones that do all the work.

Good points. :thumbup:

I really think that a seperate residency would be a better way as Neuro, PM&R, Anes, Psych and other fields all have their strong suits. Many painful conditions can be rehabed and there is a strong psychological component to a number of conditions. My opinion, granted, but these avenues should be taken before anything invasive such as a procedure. It would be better to integrate this into a 3/4/5 year residency rather than attempt to play catch-up in a 1-2 year fellowship. There is a different perspective to doing it together, I think.

To the two arguing, you sound like a pair of 3rd graders....like South Park....but not funny......umkay.
 
cloud9 said:
Good points. :thumbup:

I really think that a seperate residency would be a better way as Neuro, PM&R, Anes, Psych and other fields all have their strong suits. Many painful conditions can be rehabed and there is a strong psychological component to a number of conditions. My opinion, granted, but these avenues should be taken before anything invasive such as a procedure. It would be better to integrate this into a 3/4/5 year residency rather than attempt to play catch-up in a 1-2 year fellowship. There is a different perspective to doing it together, I think.

To the two arguing, you sound like a pair of 3rd graders....like South Park....but not funny......umkay.


I think the ideal way to treat pain is to have a comprehensive clinic including various docs: pm&r, anesthesia, psychology/psychiatry + nursing staff. I know vermont has a great pain program and this is how they run things. The anesthesiologist does most of the invasive procedures. I don't think it is best for patient care for one physician to assume all of the roles needed in comprehensive pain management.
 
M said:
I find it interesting that the criticisms made on this thread about PM&R are the ones we sometimes unfairly hear about Anesthesia. Examples include:

1. Medical students who go into Anesthesia are in it for the money and are the ones who couldn't get into Radiology.
2. If you listen to some of the surgeons, Anesthesiologists don't do anything but put their patients to sleep and then sit around doing nothing.
3. CRNAs are the ones that do all the work.

I think all of you should worry less about PM&R and worry more about CRNAs who now have their own interventional pain fellowship and are starting to practice without physician supervision. Specialties who lack the proper training are also trying to get into the field of interventional pain with a few weekend courses here and there. Even within Anesthesia, there are clearly people who shouldn't be practicing because their only exposure to pain was the 4-6 weeks they spent divided between the clinic, PACU, and the acute pain service.

My opinion is that the only people who should be practicing interventional pain are physicians who have completed an ACGME-accredited pain fellowship. In fact, some hospitals won't give you privileges unless you have done a fellowship or will limit which procedure you can do to interlaminar epidurals. If someone has done a fellowship, then I don't really have a problem with them practicing pain medicine irregardless of their background. Psychiatry is technically allowed to do a pain fellowship and I've met lots of Psychiatry residents who want to do interventional pain, but it is nearly impossible for them to get a fellowship. The responsibility of selecting the right candidate for a fellowship is up to the program director. There is more to think about than just "protecting Anesthesia". I think the greater concern should be over those practicing interventional pain without a medical degree or PCPs doing these blocks after taking a weekend cadaver course. These are the people that are truly hurting our field and patients as well.


If a few CRNA programs are training CRNA's to do interventional pain mgmt then it is very few. Yes in nurse anesthesia training they do inverventional pain mgmt somewhat but to say that CRNA's are popping up inverventional pain fellowships everywhere is simply false. Yes their are some CRNA's that do pain mgmt but they must always always always be consulted by a MD, DO ect and they are usually very very rural practitioners. A pt cant go to a CRNA straight up to get pain mgmt without being consulted. And believe me the threat of CRNA's taking over the pain mgmt realm is very very weak. SO dont try to turn this issue into the CRNA's are taking it all, b/c that is untrue.
 
miamidc said:
I have much repect for your field. But I wholly believe that pain is quickly becoming a turf war. You guys want to do for the same reasons everyone else does. You know what those reasons are. Problem is, we Gas people are sick of others trying to nest in a traditional Gas environment. First CRNAs, now enchrochment by you guys.
Some of you gas bound medical students really need to get over your insecurities.

You're so excited about the gig you're going to have through Anesthesia, until the thought an FMG taking your spot outside the match, CRNAs taking your jobs or Physiatrists taking your expensive procedures crosses your minds.

That's when everyone goes ape s**t.

Chill.

You don't see the attendings on this forum crying about this BS do you?

Bottom line, if you are PMR get in while you can, cause the new breed is not going to give our proffesion away.
With regards to pain, you're probably too late. Should you enter a pain fellowship in 4 years, you will likely have a Physiatrist or Neurologist right there as your colleague.
 
nitecap said:
If a few CRNA programs are training CRNA's to do interventional pain mgmt then it is very few. Yes in nurse anesthesia training they do inverventional pain mgmt somewhat but to say that CRNA's are popping up inverventional pain fellowships everywhere is simply false. Yes their are some CRNA's that do pain mgmt but they must always always always be consulted by a MD, DO ect and they are usually very very rural practitioners. A pt cant go to a CRNA straight up to get pain mgmt without being consulted. And believe me the threat of CRNA's taking over the pain mgmt realm is very very weak. SO dont try to turn this issue into the CRNA's are taking it all, b/c that is untrue.


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=247718

http://www.ipge.com/PainManagement.htm



Are the goals of these fellowships, courses, and legislative meetings simply to train a few CRNAs to practice in very, very rural areas after consulting a MD/DO?
 
MedicinePowder said:
.... i think the new breed of future anesthesiologist will take the field by the neck and set it straight. .....


Here, Here

I think you are absolutely correct w/ this point. I really hope that we will be able to iron out the wrinkles that have occurred to this great specialty called anesthesia. I think/hope that most of us MS4s going in now will be a little more aggressive (NOT necessariliy MILITANT).

Change is always good!
 
M said:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=247718

http://www.ipge.com/PainManagement.htm



Are the goals of these fellowships, courses, and legislative meetings simply to train a few CRNAs to practice in very, very rural areas after consulting a MD/DO?

Not saying that the only CRNA's that train in this fellowship are going rural but think about it would you contemplate a pain fellowship if you didnt think you would be profitable after completion. These fellowships are far and few promise me and CRNA's arent racing to enter the field. Many that do attend Im sure see the need in their geographical area but to say that CRNA's are going to take over urban pain mgmt is false. Especially when billing is the same as far as cost for the procedure whether the CRNA would do it or anesthesiologist do it. Really I think you guys are just real paranoid which is understandable but in reality guys CRNA's are not taking over the pain mgmt realm and are not racing to do so. If a CRNA does a fellowship and is practicig then probrably where ever they are practicing is in dire need so they are providing a needed service. Also many of these rural pain mgmt CRNA's are it. They may do pain mgmt, GA, all L & D services ect, they most likely do it all d/t lack of provider availabilty. So Many of these pain mgmt CRNA's arent jst doing pain mgmt.
 
http://www.cottagehospital.org/pdfs/CottageChatSummer.pdf#search='cottage%20hospital%20pain%20management'

These guys are even doing spinal cord stimulators. Pretty progressive all CRNA practice, in a rural location. Would this practice model work in a larger area? Well it's all about referral base. They've got it up there in northern NH, but in a place with a pain group, breaking into the field will be pretty hard to do. Unless the referrals are coming from primary care NP's...

Getting widespread hospital privledges for things like spinal cord stimulators with a CRNA level of training and no MD involvement has got to be next to impossible in most areas. The scope of practice may allow recognition of when to place one, and a fellowship may allow one to acquire the surgical skills necessary to do so, but where in the training is the background on how to deal with the complications?

I understand that CRNA's are highly trained in how to deal with critically ill patients and then the anesthetic management of any patient for any procedure using any modality, regional or GA, for surgery. Highly trained for operative and obstetric anesthesia, but pain is a different ballgame. If you get a wound infection from that stimulator, is there adequate training and scope to prescribe antibiotics? I know CRNA's have DEA numbers, but without an NP do they have full prescriptive privleges? Interventional pain is taking the anesthetist hat off and really putting on the hat of the surgeon. And as our surgeon colleagues will tell us, that means taking care of the whole patient through the whole operative experience.
 
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