PAs can now become DOs without taking an MCAT

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guylewis

guylewis

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LECOM is now accepting PAs who haven't taken an MCAT to their accelerated DO program.

http://www.studentdoctor.net/2014/01/accelerated-pa-to-do-program-waives-mcats/

personally I don't feel very good about this but maybe you might have a convincing argument as to how this will be either a benefit to DOs or it makes no difference whatsoever. Please share your thoughts on this.

my favorite quote from the article:

As for why this change wasn’t always part of LECOM’s APAP program, Kauffman added, “We have received exceptional applications from PAs who have aced their national certification exam, the PANCE, but could not apply because they did not take the MCAT.”


how did they receive applications from PAs who could not apply? and seriously, who applies to medical school and then refuses to take an MCAT? who are these geniuses that are throwing away their application money? something doesn't pass the sniff test on that statement
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I fail to see how it's that big of a deal. However, I agree that it's odd that some PAs were applying without meeting the requirements beforehand.
 
guylewis said:
LECOM is now accepting PAs who haven't taken an MCAT to their accelerated DO program.

http://www.studentdoctor.net/2014/01/accelerated-pa-to-do-program-waives-mcats/

personally I don't feel very good about this but maybe you might have a convincing argument as to how this will be either a benefit to DOs or it makes no difference whatsoever. Please share your thoughts on this.

my favorite quote from the article:

As for why this change wasn’t always part of LECOM’s APAP program, Kauffman added, “We have received exceptional applications from PAs who have aced their national certification exam, the PANCE, but could not apply because they did not take the MCAT.”


how did they receive applications from PAs who could not apply? and seriously, who applies to medical school and then refuses to take an MCAT? who are these geniuses that are throwing away their application money? something doesn't pass the sniff test on that statement
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Yeah, that makes 0 sense. I can see how an established PA who works 40-50+ hrs a week, and has been out of schooling/training for many years may not have the time/desire to take the MCAT. Heck, this type of PA, in my opinion, has earned a little leeway because he/she likely has experienced more and knows a lot more than an ordinary premed/MS1.

However, what would be really silly is if people decide to become PA's, and then instantly look to enroll into this program simply to avoid taking the MCAT. This would be particularly unfair to the rest of us, to say the least.
 
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I worked full-time in healthcare and still studied and did relatively well on the mcat. They can too.
 
It's probably not going to benefit anyone because I'm sincerely doubtful many working PAs are going to legitimately put aside their established careers ( making 80-100k) doing essentially most of the same things as physicians just so they can be called doctor. This program will legitimately see like very few applicants/ students.

Regarding the mcat being waived, I really don't see what the issue is here. They've essentially likely passed exams that are far harder and far more relevant to medical practice than an exam that tests introduction to chemistry or physics. I mean, I legitimately don't see the issue here as I don't think a person who has graduated from a PA program with a high enough gpa to be eligible for this program is not smart enough to be a doctor.
 
edgerock24 said:
Yeah, that makes 0 sense. I can see how an established PA who works 40-50+ hrs a week, and has been out of schooling/training for many years may not have the time/desire to take the MCAT. Heck, this type of PA, in my opinion, has earned a little leeway because he/she likely has experienced more and knows a lot more than an ordinary premed/MS1.

However, what would be really silly is if people decide to become PA's, and then instantly look to enroll into this program simply to avoid taking the MCAT. This would be particularly unfair to the rest of us, to say the least.
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Actually, I don't mean to derail this thread, but this brings up another issue.

As nurse practitioner (NP) is being phased out for doctor of nursing practice (DNP), I'm afraid with the power the nursing union in this country these providers will one day try to obtain unlimited medical licensure. It's not beyond the realm of possibility.
 
guylewis said:
LECOM is now accepting PAs who haven't taken an MCAT to their accelerated DO program.

http://www.studentdoctor.net/2014/01/accelerated-pa-to-do-program-waives-mcats/

personally I don't feel very good about this but maybe you might have a convincing argument as to how this will be either a benefit to DOs or it makes no difference whatsoever. Please share your thoughts on this.

my favorite quote from the article:

As for why this change wasn’t always part of LECOM’s APAP program, Kauffman added, “We have received exceptional applications from PAs who have aced their national certification exam, the PANCE, but could not apply because they did not take the MCAT.”


how did they receive applications from PAs who could not apply? and seriously, who applies to medical school and then refuses to take an MCAT? who are these geniuses that are throwing away their application money? something doesn't pass the sniff test on that statement
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PAs have already gone through their "mini" medical school curriculum packed with medical school classes and clinical rotations. It would be going backwards to have them take the MCAT which is academically and intellectually irrelevant at that point in their career. PAs who are certified should be allowed to skip the MCAT and should be measured on everything else from GPA, performance in PA school, etc. for admissions.

This is my personal, unbiased opinion
 
i guess it was their reasoning (which I quoted) that threw me off. they should've plainly stated that PAs don't need to take an MCAT, they've already proven their medical aptitude rather than giving some lame BS about how many "PA applicants" they had who were "unable to apply" because they lacked an MCAT. it seemed furtive, lacking candor, and thus suspicious of their program.
 
serenade said:
Regarding the mcat being waived, I really don't see what the issue is here. They've essentially likely passed exams that are far harder and far more relevant to medical practice than an exam that tests introduction to chemistry or physics. I mean, I legitimately don't see the issue here as I don't think a person who has graduated from a PA program with a high enough gpa to be eligible for this program is not smart enough to be a doctor.
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Exactly. And, it would be crazy of them to go through a PA program just to avoid the MCAT. I could see someone doing that, but that's two years of school to avoid taking a relatively short test.

Getting into certain PA schools can be more difficult than getting into certain medical schools. In fact, most PA schools require additional biology and chemistry courses (e.g. biochem, etc.) that most medical schools simply recommend you take if anything.
 
medickdb said:
Actually, I don't mean to derail this thread, but this brings up another issue.

As nurse practitioner (NP) is being phased out for doctor of nursing practice (DNP), I'm afraid with the power the nursing union in this country these providers will one day try to obtain unlimited medical licensure. It's not beyond the realm of possibility.
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If it does happen, MD's and DO's will merge threads on SDN, and Pre-DNP's will have their secondary threads with people saying "well your MCAT is good but your GPA is just not competitive enough for MD/DO. I suggest you apply to DNP school because you can still be a doctor and it doesn't matter what your initials say!" while ND's sit quietly in the back eating popcorn.
 
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Dr. Zombie said:
We would have to fight tooth and nail. Physicians have just too many clinical hours to earn autonomy. DNP's just don't. Not to mention, DNP's as far as I understand still have limited pharmacological knowledge and can't just prescribe the same way as doctors.
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That, and they don't have a strong background in science. I think it would be the first thing on which the AMA and AOA would find agreement. They should have to go through medical school like everyone else.

I don't want people to think I'm trying to generalize nurses here. I've met plenty of great ones throughout the years. But, the fact of the matter is that their unions have been pushing for more and more. It's somewhat insulting when you see a nurse with an associates degree walking the halls of the hospital in a full white coat. It does happen. Not to lessen their accomplishments, but they've been school for two years when as a doctor, NP, or PA you've done at least six years with some graduate level education. At best, the practice can and has been misleading to patients.
 
Dr. Zombie said:
If it does happen, MD's and DO's will merge threads on SDN, and Pre-DNP's will have their secondary threads with people saying "well your MCAT is good but your GPA is just not competitive enough for MD/DO. I suggest you apply to DNP school because you can still be a doctor and it doesn't matter what your initials say!" while ND's sit quietly in the back eating popcorn.
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and in those threads they'd still be saying: "whatever you do, just DON'T GO CARIBBEAN!!"
 
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medickdb said:
That, and they don't have a strong background in science. I think it would be the first thing on which the AMA and AOA would find agreement. They should have to go through medical school like everyone else.

I don't want people to think I'm trying to generalize nurses here. I've met plenty of great ones throughout the years. But, the fact of the matter is that their unions have been pushing for more and more. It's somewhat insulting when you see a nurse with an associates degree walking the halls of the hospital in a full white coat. It does happen. Not to lessen their accomplishments, but they've been school for two years when as a doctor, NP, or PA you've done at least six years with some graduate level education. At best, the practice can and has been misleading to patients.
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It would be nice to see the AMA and AOA join together for a common cause...

I just read this on one of the DO websites:

DNP = increasing scope of practice through legislation, not education

lol...
 
guylewis said:
my favorite quote from the article:

As for why this change wasn’t always part of LECOM’s APAP program, Kauffman added, “We have received exceptional applications from PAs who have aced their national certification exam, the PANCE, but could not apply because they did not take the MCAT.”


how did they receive applications from PAs who could not apply? and seriously, who applies to medical school and then refuses to take an MCAT? who are these geniuses that are throwing away their application money? something doesn't pass the sniff test on that statement
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Did you read the paragraph right above your favorite quote which explains why?

Kauffman said he expects the change to reach a wider audience. “Many PAs who are interested in achieving a DO degree are exceptional candidates,” he explained. “PA curriculum does not prepare the students to take the MCAT, with only 54 percent requiring organic chemistry and only 4 percent requiring physics. APAP students have been practicing clinically for an average of nearly six years. To require that they take the MCAT to be assessed on topics that are not consistently used in the practice of clinical medicine, fails to recognize the knowledge base that they possess.”
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I fail to see the issue here.
 
guylewis said:
and in those threads they'd still be saying: "whatever you do, just DON'T GO CARIBBEAN!!"
Click to expand...
But... but... you get a piña colada on accepted students day!
bionerd89 said:
It would be nice to see the AMA and AOA join together for a common cause...

I just read this on one of the DO websites:

DNP = increasing scope of practice through legislation, not education

lol...
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It's scary how it's happening.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Nursing_Practice
 
medickdb said:
But... but... you get a piña colada on accepted students day!

It's scary how it's happening.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Nursing_Practice
Click to expand...

If they eventually get to use the "doctor" title then I hope they will be required by law to clarify to the patients that they aren't real medical doctors and they never attended medical school

EDIT: I just read this part on wiki:

As of 2013, only a few states specifically prohibit DNP's from using the title "Doctor" with their patients (Arkansas, Connecticut, Maine, Oklahoma, Oregon), while four more states require them to clarify that they are not physicians (New York, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, and Virginia)

So hopefully more states will require them to clarify or keep prohibiting the use of the title completely
 
Carl Seitan said:
Did you read the paragraph right above your favorite quote which explains why?



I fail to see the issue here.
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that quote does not negate the fact that the quote i posted seemed fishy if not misleading. I agree, they don't really need to take an MCAT if they have finished their PA school. they have already proven their medical aptitude, thus negating the need for an MCAT. I just dont like how they then give that confusing argument that they have applicants who don't have an MCAT who are not able to apply. how do they get applicants who are not able to apply? and what PA is so ballsy to turn in an application and pay the applications fees and refuse to take an MCAT thinking that they will change the schools opinion via this type of silent but costly protest? it does not make any sense
 
serenade said:
Regarding the mcat being waived, I really don't see what the issue is here. They've essentially likely passed exams that are far harder and far more relevant to medical practice than an exam that tests introduction to chemistry or physics.
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You really don't know if the PA certification exam is harder than the MCAT (unless you took both test)! You would be surprise to hear what a lot PAs who attempted to go med school say regarding the MCAT. I work with two excellent PAs who did not go to med school because they could not get decent MCAT score. The MCAT is just a 'different' test.
 
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BestDoctorEver said:
You really don't know if the PA certification exam is harder than the MCAT! You would be surprise to hear what a lot PAs who attempted to go med school say regarding the MCAT. I work with two excellent PAs who did not go to med school because they could not get decent MCAT score. The MCAT is just a 'different' test.
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Right, you want to say that an exam that authorized an individual to practice medicine, that tests 3 years of graduate level medical science is easier than the MCAT? And congrats on your anecdotes.
 
They'll pass boards or they won't. People who pass PA school can very probably pass their tests in medical school, so that metric is not as important.
 
serenade said:
Right, you want to say that an exam that authorized an individual to practice medicine, that tests 3 years of graduate level medical science is easier than the MCAT? And congrats on your anecdotes.
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I don't know that either... But I have worked PAs/DO/MD who told me that the MCAT is harder and different than the test they took to become licensed practitioners. Heck...the DO that I shadowed got into DMU with an 18 MCAT in 2004 and had no problems to pass the boards.
 
edgerock24 said:
Yeah, that makes 0 sense. I can see how an established PA who works 40-50+ hrs a week, and has been out of schooling/training for many years may not have the time/desire to take the MCAT. Heck, this type of PA, in my opinion, has earned a little leeway because he/she likely has experienced more and knows a lot more than an ordinary premed/MS1.

However, what would be really silly is if people decide to become PA's, and then instantly look to enroll into this program simply to avoid taking the MCAT. This would be particularly unfair to the rest of us, to say the least.
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From what I've heard they are pretty picky about the PAs they accept. They look for people with years of experience and solid PANCE scores. It would be interesting to see how well PANCE scores of PAs correlate to USMLE and COMLEX scores, as the tests are much closer to each other than the MCAT is to the USMLE. Not saying this is a good or a bad thing, just that you probably won't see people going PA to med school with no MCAT. That would just be stupid anyway, as you're blowing five years instead of four to become a doctor, and spending what probably amounts to a good deal more money overall.

Let's also remember that there are some programs that take applicants directly from high school into a BS-MD program that don't require the MCAT. I would be more concerned about those.
 
Why do physicians keep doing this **** to themselves and their profession? DAMN.
 
BestDoctorEver said:
I don't know that either... But I have worked PAs/DO/MD who told me that the MCAT is harder and different than the test they took to become licensed practitioners. Heck...the DO that I shadowed got into DMU with an 18 MCAT in 2004 and had no problems to pass the boards.
Click to expand...


So bottomline, are you for or against the program?
 
serenade said:
So bottomline, are you for or against the program?
Click to expand...
I've been vacillating on my thoughts on this this but right now I am thinking that I would rather have more DOs and less PAs than having more PAs and fewer DOs. I think this would shrink the influence and power of PAs and hopefully as a result the DNPs too. not to mention, more DOs means more acceptance and public awareness of DOs. plus, it's not like the PAs are automatically converting their degree to DO. they have to still earn it by going through the rigors of a medical school (albeit at a slightly faster pace) on top of the 2 years of PA school
 
medickdb said:
Actually, I don't mean to derail this thread, but this brings up another issue.

As nurse practitioner (NP) is being phased out for doctor of nursing practice (DNP), I'm afraid with the power the nursing union in this country these providers will one day try to obtain unlimited medical licensure. It's not beyond the realm of possibility.
Click to expand...
Go to the physician threads. They have been talking about this ... And not just in anesthesia. Now there are nurses doing scopes, independent DNP and CRNA.. Some docs are scared about it, but I have heard as long as you do some type of fellowship you really won't have to worry about that type of encroachment. .. Of course, who knows how it will all pan out.
 
wjs010 said:
Go to the physician threads. They have been talking about this ... And not just in anesthesia. Now there are nurses doing scopes, independent DNP and CRNA.. Some docs are scared about it, but I have heard as long as you do some type of fellowship you really won't have to worry about that type of encroachment. .. Of course, who knows how it will all pan out.
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the problem is that getting a fellowship is not as easy for DOs. so this is kinda scary to me. I don't mean to be doom and gloom, but what are practicing DOs thinking about this?
 
guylewis said:
the problem is that getting a fellowship is not as easy for DOs. so this is kinda scary to me. I don't mean to be doom and gloom, but what are practicing DOs thinking about this?
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I didn't mean to worry anyone. I guess I should be more general. It may not be fellowships that are absolutely needed. But it's going to be important to have more esoteric, specialized procedures under your belt. Whether or not that requires a fellowship probably depends on lots of things. I'm just saying that it is more important now than ever to kind of carve a niche for yourself lol
 
serenade said:
So bottomline, are you for or against the program?
Click to expand...
I am 100% for a program like that... because I don't think the MCAT is that important for someone to become a competent physician. The majority of US students who went to the islands is because they could not get a good MCAT score--not because they want MD as opposed to DO. There are a lot of them that are practicing medicine is the US. A friend of mine just finished the first two years at AUA and he got 218 in step 1 (first attempt). He took the MCAT 3 times and his highest score was a 17... All these anecdotes make me question the usefulness of the MCAT. I guess since med school receive so many applications, this is one way to weed people out.
 
guylewis said:
I've been vacillating on my thoughts on this this but right now I am thinking that I would rather have more DOs and less PAs than having more PAs and fewer DOs. I think this would shrink the influence and power of PAs and hopefully as a result the DNPs too. not to mention, more DOs means more acceptance and public awareness of DOs. plus, it's not like the PAs are automatically converting their degree to DO. they have to still earn it by going through the rigors of a medical school (albeit at a slightly faster pace) on top of the 2 years of PA school
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PA school is 3 years.

And lets be honest here. DO schools produce in majority primary care physicians. PAs already function under supervision as primary care physicians and command salaries that are largely comparable to family physicians. So, no, most PAs will not be partaking in this program.
And somehow I think PAs are taught enough for them be able to move forward at a faster rate.
 
serenade said:
PA school is 3 years.

And lets be honest here. DO schools produce in majority primary care physicians. PAs already function under supervision as primary care physicians and command salaries that are largely comparable to family physicians. So, no, most PAs will not be partaking in this program.
And somehow I think PAs are taught enough for them be able to move forward at a faster rate.
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That is true. I guess by your logic, most of the PA's switching to DO via this type of program are probably gunning for a competitive specialty ( probably after having been exposed to it in PA school and taking interest in it). Just a guess though.
 
BestDoctorEver said:
That is true. I guess by your logic, most of the PA's switching to DO via this type of program are probably gunning for a competitive specialty ( probably after having been exposed to it in PA school and taking interest in it). Just a guess though.
Click to expand...

That's my reasoning for why these programs aren't all that great for PAs to consider. I don't know why a few PAs would go for a program like this. Maybe it's because they want a specialty or because they want to be a doctor, idk.
 
serenade said:
PA school is 3 years.

And lets be honest here. DO schools produce in majority primary care physicians. PAs already function under supervision as primary care physicians and command salaries that are largely comparable to family physicians. So, no, most PAs will not be partaking in this program.
And somehow I think PAs are taught enough for them be able to move forward at a faster rate.
Click to expand...

some PA schools are 3 years, others are 2 years. also, the median income for PAs is close to 90k/year. even family practice doctors make much more than that

source: http://www1.salary.com/Physician-Assistant-Medical-Salary.html
 
serenade said:
PA school is 3 years.

And lets be honest here. DO schools produce in majority primary care physicians. PAs already function under supervision as primary care physicians and command salaries that are largely comparable to family physicians. So, no, most PAs will not be partaking in this program.
And somehow I think PAs are taught enough for them be able to move forward at a faster rate.
Click to expand...
60k-100k as opposed to 160k-240k... I would not call that largely comparable.
 
guylewis said:
some PA schools are 3 years, others are 2 years. also, the median income for PAs is close to 90k/year. even family practice doctors make much more than that

source: http://www1.salary.com/Physician-Assistant-Medical-Salary.html
Click to expand...

90k 40 hours a week, no paper work, no malpractice, no overhead, etc at 25 v.s 180 55-60 hours a week, tons of paper work, malpractice, overhead at 30.

Overall, PAs have a great deal.

So what do I call someone who makes 100k and decides to spend 200k and 6-7 years of their life to retrain? An idiot.
 
serenade said:
That's my reasoning for why these programs aren't all that great for PAs to consider. I don't know why a few PAs would go for a program like this. Maybe it's because they want a specialty or because they want to be a doctor, idk.
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maybe it's for PAs who would rather prefer to have greater autonomy and more wiggle room in what they are capable of doing in the future. they don't want a glass ceiling. my friend was a PA and after doing that for a little he decided he couldn't handle the lack of autonomy and advancement potential so he is now a studying for his MD at a top medical school. I'm sure lots of PAs, just like nurses, are getting into medicine and realizing they are hamstrung in what decisions they can make on their own and decide that they can broaden their horizons and potential if they got an MD or DO degree. I'm sure something like what LECOM is offering is the answer to their prayers. I just don't know how this will impact us future DOs. though I am being convinced more and more that it won't have any effect or might even be a positive. still need to meditate on this more
 
guylewis said:
maybe it's for PAs who would rather prefer to have greater autonomy and more wiggle room in what they are capable of doing in the future. they don't want a glass ceiling. my friend was a PA and after doing that for a little he decided he couldn't handle the lack of autonomy and advancement potential so he is now a studying for his MD at a top medical school. I'm sure lots of PAs, just like nurses, are getting into medicine and realizing they are hamstrung in what decisions they can make on their own and decide that they can broaden their horizons and potential if they got an MD or DO degree. I'm sure something like what LECOM is offering is the answer to their prayers. I just don't know how this will impact us future DOs. though I am being convinced more and more that it won't have any effect or might even be a positive. still need to meditate on this more
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Me thinks not many people really care once they're in a position that they're comfortable.
 
Also you can put a price on the flexibility that physicians have... I don't think a PA can become medical director of nursing homes... This is extra money that primary care doc can make. My cousin (an internist) is the medical director of two nursing homes. He got over 70k+/year stipend for that plus most of these patients are his. He also has his practice. I don't know if he was bragging, but he told me he made over 350k in 2012. But he works an average 60+ hours/week.
 
serenade said:
PA school is 3 years.
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I think that varies. The program at my current school is only 2 years. However, they require an obscene amount of clinical and shadowing hours before you can even apply. So that could be a factor.
 
serenade said:
90k 40 hours a week, no paper work, no malpractice, no overhead, etc at 25 v.s 180 55-60 hours a week, tons of paper work, malpractice, overhead at 30.

Overall, PAs have a great deal.

So what do I call someone who makes 100k and decides to spend 200k and 6-7 years of their life to retrain? An idiot.
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3 years at LECOM (annual tuition is 30k, one of the cheapest private medical schools) and they have the potential to earn WAY MORE than 90k or staying at their current PA job and maxing out their annual salary at 90k....I think I would easily chose going for the DO if i were in their shoes. True, the overhead isn't much and neither is malpractice but that doesn't mean they are not culpable for any errors that occur. they can easily lose their license to practice if they screw up or at minimum have a scarred record that will hinder them from getting hired anywhere that isn't in Podunk, PA. not to mention, the price of autonomy is very hard to put in terms of salary.
 
I wouldn't. If I were 30, had kids, had a PA-C I would rather gut myself than go back to school for 6+ years just so I can do what I've already been doing, uproot my entire life and those around me, and put my income on hold for 3-6 years ( residency is still far less money than what they're earning). Honestly, it's not happening. You guys are simply thinking this through the mindset of a 20 year old bachelor who can easily uproot themselves. But PAs are mostly already an older group of people. It's simply not an option for most of them even if they wanted it.

Hell, even now as someone who's in a serious relationship I have trouble moving around the country and picking medical schools that I can attend that can also provide job opportunities for my bf. It's simply far too hard.
 
serenade said:
I wouldn't. If I were 30, had kids, had a PA-C I would rather gut myself than go back to school for 6+ years just so I can do what I've already been doing, uproot my entire life and those around me, and put my income on hold for 3-6 years ( residency is still far less money than what they're earning). Honestly, it's not happening. You guys are simply thinking this through the mindset of a 20 year old bachelor who can easily uproot themselves. But PAs are mostly already an older group of people. It's simply not an option for most of them even if they wanted it.

Hell, even now as someone who's in a serious relationship I have trouble moving around the country and picking medical schools that I can attend that can also provide job opportunities for my bf. It's simply far too hard.
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I don't think low 30s is that bad... but 37+ might be. Some of them might have supportive spouses who might be making good salary.
 
serenade said:
I wouldn't. If I were 30, had kids, had a PA-C I would rather gut myself than go back to school for 6+ years just so I can do what I've already been doing, uproot my entire life and those around me, and put my income on hold for 3-6 years ( residency is still far less money than what they're earning). Honestly, it's not happening. You guys are simply thinking this through the mindset of a 20 year old bachelor who can easily uproot themselves. But PAs are mostly already an older group of people. It's simply not an option for most of them even if they wanted it.

Hell, even now as someone who's in a serious relationship I have trouble moving around the country and picking medical schools that I can attend that can also provide job opportunities for my bf. It's simply far too hard.
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Wait, you're a woman? Makes sense.
 
BestDoctorEver said:
Lol... I think many DO schools will start doing this type of program in the next 5-10 years.
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I don't think. The only program that has ever really considered something similar is the NOVA with it's Podiatrist to DO program. Which admittedly probably gets between 1 to 10 applicants a year.
 
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