Pass/Fail Dental Schools

[Reed1978]

I've heard that Columbia is now P/F. What are the advantages and disadvantages of a P/F system and how exactly does it work - if you get a "D" I suppose that means "you pass", but does the numerical value of a "D" show up anywhere on your transcript?

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[savvysearch]

At UCLA a D is not pass. It's much higher like a C+ or B- to pass.

Advantage = less pressure. No feeling of competition.
Disadvantage=for those going into specialty, how do schools judge you on a pass/fail basis? Not as easy as an applicant whose transcript has grades.

 

[Bcat]

I think the pass/ fail system is perfect for me. I like working with my classmates without competition. With regard to specializing, last year 100% of the class receive their first or second choice for residency including 12 ortho, 5 OMS, and 7 Endo. In my opinion attending a p/f school will not in any way hurt your chances of specializing.

 

[croco]

In texas schools after two D's uare kicked out

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

Damn, that is more harsh than NYU!!!

At least they let us fail three and remediate

 

[ItsGavinC]

There are advantages to the P/F system, but there are also disadvantages. I'll comment on this to the extent of my knowledge.

At Arizona, our initial grading scale was WAY too harsh, so the faculty took our ideas and revamped it just a couple of weeks ago.

I happen to think our system is VERY cool, but I'll talk about that in a moment.

We considered going to a P/F system at Arizona, but decided against it in the end. One reason is because it doesn't eliminate competition, it merely covers it up (in most cases).

In order to specialize, the PASS system (for matching with ADA specialty programs) requires that you submit your class ranking to the programs you are interested in. Meaning, that even if your school is P/F, you are still being ranked. Sure, the faculty may not tell you your ranking, but you are still being ranked. They are STILL keeping track of your scores. Also keep in mind that many P/F systems are nothing more than High Pass, Pass, Fail, or Honors High Pass, High Pass, Pass, Fail. Those systems have just given different names to traditional letter grades!

MANY schools have a grading system that is simliar to ours at Arizona. We have no minus grades, meaning that a grade which might typically earn you a B- will earn you a B, as will a traditional percentage that earns you a B. So, one can earn an A, B+, B, C+, or C. Anything below a C is considered failing.

When it comes to specializing, you have to remember that as long as you are being ranked against your classmates (which you will be), and your classmates have the same grading system as you do (which they obviously will), then it really doesn't matter much what the actual grading system is. The only time it really matters is from a mental standpoint.

For example, if the faculty determine that a 97 and above is an A, and a 92-96 is a B, and a 80-92 is a C, then so be it.

A grade of 91 would earn you a C in this case, but that doesn't mean it's a bad grade. It just means it equates to a C on your schools system. It means the high scorer on every exam could earn a 91 and have a transcript full of Cs. That doesn't change the fact that he/she will still be ranked #1 in their class.

Does that make sense? Since the entire class is graded on the same system, the faculty can call your letter grades whatever they like, and can make cutoffs whereever they want.

Sure, your GPA when you graduate might look bad. In this case people who got straight 91s through their coursework would have a 2.0 (C) GPA. Specialty programs will still look at the class rank and see where students fell. Further, schools will send a copy of their grading policy to any program that requests it, so when an orthodontic program sees that a student with a 2.1 GPA was #1 in the class, they'll know that the system must have been different than at other schools.

 

[ItsGavinC]

To sum my last post: dental school is different than undergrad. Dental school is NOT about GPA. Dental school (for those who care) is about class rank.

Futher, if you just care about passing/failing, then you can take the lowest grade your school offers, and consider yourself successful if you get above it! Several of my classmates have done this. Since a 70 is the lowest passing grade, they consider themselves passers if they score that or higher. And, indeed they are passers.

 

[gryffindor]

Originally posted by ItsGavinC
In order to specialize, the PASS system (for matching with ADA specialty programs) requires that you submit your class ranking to the programs you are interested in.

Yeah, but there is a little box the dean's office can check that says "Mark box if dental school does not rank students." That means that all those applicants to ortho/endo/OMS at Harvard couldn't be compared to each other. Why would P/F schools rank behind the student's back if they can just check this little box on the PASS form and not have to deal with rank.

I'm not sure yet which system is better in terms of specialty placement outcomes, but at our school we use A, B, C, D, F. Once in a while, a pass/fail or H/S/U class comes along which is like a godsend b/c these classes are not used to calculate class rank, so I always feel there is less stress in these classes.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Thanks for clarifying, griffin

 

[Bcat]

I too am unsure which system of grading places more students into their specialties. I do know that last year out of 35 class members 35 applied to residencies and 35 matched. And to clarify any misunderstanding about my school only, there is no ranking. I assume we are placed mainly based on recommendations and board scores. Anyway, It doesn't matter what school you attend. We all pass the same boards and are eligible for the same residencies.

 

[gryffindor]

?|?Originally posted by Bcat [/i]
I assume we are placed mainly based on recommendations and board scores. [/QUOTE]

If that's true, then consider yourself very lucky. I have good board scores and glowing recommendations, but I feel like that in this process, my recommendations are shoved aside b/c the program has my class rank availabe. They're looking at several other classmates of mine all at once who are also ranked with good board scores and good recommendations. What easier way to eliminate candidates than to just shaft those with the lower ranks? Saves time for them, heartache for the rest of us. But if there is no rank, then I'd suppose they actually have to read those recommendations and actually look at the CV and think if the candidate has something to offer to their program.

 

[PashaJ]

Originally posted by Bcat
Anyway, It doesn't matter what school you attend.

I don't want to get flamed for this but I'm sure going to Harvard plays a role in the matching. Any program would love to flaunt the idea of having a Harvard trained dentist there. Nothing wrong about it, it's great marketing.

 

[groundhog]

Does any one actually know any sizable number of recent dental school grads who tried but failed to match into a speciality program. If matching is so competitive, one would think that there must be hundreds of grads each year who end up being dissappointed. But I don't get that impression. I've never seen a post on SDN which says something like "I failed to match. I'm just devistated. The competition was so overwhelming."

 

[mcataz]

I think the P/F system benefits students from schools with traditionally good names. Columbia was smart to switch to a P/F system. They have an excellent name and class size. That alone will help the graduates of that program immensely. Programs will give Columbia grads the benefit of the doubt if they eliminate class ranks because it's "Columbia."

I mean not only will it help students at Columbia redue the amount of competitve tension. It will also help their students match into residencies. Think about it. Nearly everyone at Columbia will score well on the boards. And recommendation letters won't be too tough to acquire. The only thing that would hinder their progress will be their class rank.

It wouldn't suprise me if Penn went to this system as well.

 

[snarlytooth]

Anyone have a list of those dental schools that are pass/fail?

 

[Bcat]

This is not a comprehensive list but for starters...

Columbia
Harvard
UConn

If anybody knows of another please add it to the list..

 

[Bcat]

If matching is so competitive, one would think that there must be hundreds of grads each year who end up being dissappointed. But I don't get that impression. I've never seen a post on SDN which says something like "I failed to match. I'm just devistated. The competition was so overwhelming."

Many residencies have only two open spots a year. Ask the post-docs at your school what it takes to get one.

 

[groundhog]

Bcat,
While there are only a few spots available for each speciality at each match point, there are many accredited programs available beyond those directly tied to the dental schools. Plus I also bet dental school PR tends to include their graduate matches to GPR and AEGD programs when they talk about successful match rates.

It would be interesting to see a national total annual applied/available/addimited stat for each of the speciality programs plus the AEGD's and GPR's.

 

[ItsGavinC]

I don't have the direct matching stats, but I do know that 25% of students pursue specialty training, and another 20% pursue a GPR/AEGD (to the best of my recollection).

 

[ItsGavinC]

And, I've heard that there are spots open for every single specialty (yes, even ortho and OMS) by the time matching comes to a close.

 

[groundhog]

ItsGavinC,
If your stats are correct, around 1000 graduates try to match into specilaity programs each year. I checked out the pedo slots available each year and counted roughly 200+. Now if all the other speciality programs have similar numbers of openings each year, that would equal a grand total of apprx 1200 speciality slots (200 X6).

Thre could be a lot of things going on here. Maybe the perceived odds of getting into a speciality program becomes a self fullfiling prophecy. Graduates may say to themselves "if I'm not in the top xx% there is no chance so why bother to apply." Or, maybe 75% of the graduates truly want to be GP's and have no interest in becomming a specialist. Who knows. It would still be interesting to see the overall national stats.

As a side note, I'm thinking it is just a matter of time before the remaining 49 states fall in line with NY and grant licensure to those who complete a GPR or AEGD which will soon become mandatory for licensure thereafter. An ADEA study strongly recommends such action as a means to deliver more affordable oral healh care to the underserved populations.

 

[gryffindor]

I think measures are in place for Connecticut to accept a GPR/AEGD in place of a board exam very soon. I recall reading this in ADA or ASDA news somewhere. And for NY, it's succesful completion of a GPR or AEGD or ADA-accredited specialty program. The push in NY is to require a post-grad experience to kinda make this a mandatory-fifth year of dental school.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Originally posted by griffin04
The push in NY is to require a post-grad experience to kinda make this a mandatory-fifth year of dental school.

That is what my school hopes to legislate in Arizona, as well.

I personally am all for it.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Okay, here is the official word from the ADA (from the Future of Dentistry report):

? 1,200 students matriculate into specialty programs each year.

? 30% of dental students apply to GPR/AEGD programs, and there are 1,300 slots open to match with these two programs.


So, there are approx. 4,000 senior dental students at any given time, which means 1200 apply to specialty programs, and another 1200 apply for 1300 GPR/AEGD positions. That means that roughly 50% of graduating dental students go on to pursue further education.

What I take from this is that if you WANT to match to a specialty, you probably can. Like I said, I've heard that every specialty last year had seats left open (although they may not be the greatest programs in the coolest areas).