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I heard that some schools work on a pass/fail system. What are the advantages and disadvantages of that?
pass/fail
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Many schools that are "P/F" are nothing more than High Pass, Pass, Fail, which basically equates to A, B, C.
For students who only want to to GD, then the grading system really isn't that big of a deal, as long as they pass. For example, striving for a "pass" or a "C" (which is considered passing at 99% of the schools) isn't a different thing.
"P/F" is highly overrated, and like I said, has been twisted at many schools so that it is just another grading method.
If all you care about is passing/failing, then you can set your own grade standards in your mind. That is, who cares if you get a C, because you've passed.
Bottom line: do NOT choose a school just because they have pass/fail. It doesn't simplify things or necessarily make things any easier. And, it isn't like the faculty just throws your percentages out the window. They still keep track of them and still rank you according to them.
For students who only want to to GD, then the grading system really isn't that big of a deal, as long as they pass. For example, striving for a "pass" or a "C" (which is considered passing at 99% of the schools) isn't a different thing.
"P/F" is highly overrated, and like I said, has been twisted at many schools so that it is just another grading method.
If all you care about is passing/failing, then you can set your own grade standards in your mind. That is, who cares if you get a C, because you've passed.
Bottom line: do NOT choose a school just because they have pass/fail. It doesn't simplify things or necessarily make things any easier. And, it isn't like the faculty just throws your percentages out the window. They still keep track of them and still rank you according to them.
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At Columbia, I was told by the faculty members that you aren't ranked at all (but perhaps they just say that?). Your tests and wax-ups and what not still receive a % on them however.
I suppose one advantage of a P/F system is that it reduces competition amongst the students, because if you all get a P on your transcript - then, what does it matter. Although, I think it may cause some resentment as well, because if your buddies all go out partying the night before an exam and you have studied really hard, and they get a 66 and you get an 86 and everyone gets a "P"...
However, if you are in dental school - it is hoped that you will not be striving for mediocrity. Meaning, you shouldn't be content to just pass - afterall, this is going to be your life's work. Columbia is also just tyring this out for a 4 year test phase - and depending on how things turn out, they may decide to keep it going (which I think they will).
I suppose one advantage of a P/F system is that it reduces competition amongst the students, because if you all get a P on your transcript - then, what does it matter. Although, I think it may cause some resentment as well, because if your buddies all go out partying the night before an exam and you have studied really hard, and they get a 66 and you get an 86 and everyone gets a "P"...
However, if you are in dental school - it is hoped that you will not be striving for mediocrity. Meaning, you shouldn't be content to just pass - afterall, this is going to be your life's work. Columbia is also just tyring this out for a 4 year test phase - and depending on how things turn out, they may decide to keep it going (which I think they will).
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Sorry, but I believe that to be a false statement.
There is nothing wrong with simply passing. That is, the school and the NBDE have set a minimum standard for competency, or a standard by which a dentist can be fully competent. That standard is to pass. A student who passes is a dentist. This is valid in pre-clinical courses, clinical courses, and board exams.
One who scores high on every exam does not a better dentist make.
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to the above poster:
I suggest you read about Columbia's policy. It is not simly P/F but as Gavin mentioned Pass Fail and Honors. So if you got 86 that most likely will be H while your partying friend will get P.
I see that you are connecting studying with getting good grades. During my College years i have come across many students who spent 40+ hours a week on orgo. Does that mean they all got As, not at all. There are always people who don't need to study that much or not al and get good grades. This will certainly not be the case with Dental school because the classes are so much more difficult than in College. But you'll come across many students who will study more and less than you and trust me the grades will not be equivalent all the time.
My source is a D1 at Columbia, who is my close friend. There are quite few members from Columbia on this forum and they will most likely offer a very useful insight.
I suggest you read about Columbia's policy. It is not simly P/F but as Gavin mentioned Pass Fail and Honors. So if you got 86 that most likely will be H while your partying friend will get P.
I see that you are connecting studying with getting good grades. During my College years i have come across many students who spent 40+ hours a week on orgo. Does that mean they all got As, not at all. There are always people who don't need to study that much or not al and get good grades. This will certainly not be the case with Dental school because the classes are so much more difficult than in College. But you'll come across many students who will study more and less than you and trust me the grades will not be equivalent all the time.
My source is a D1 at Columbia, who is my close friend. There are quite few members from Columbia on this forum and they will most likely offer a very useful insight.
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here at mcgill it's P/F for the first two academic years with med students, then we get % grades for the clinical years. however, if you're top 10% in the first two years then you get a honors on the transcript. If you're the 11th% percent, you get nothing. the schools do keep track of ranking but that info is not written on the official transcripts. they do this to minimize competition and to promote a more cooperative learning environment.
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well, another thing is the standard is usually kept very high.
so a pass is completely different than a pass in undergrad.
pass is like acceptable. Like I heard something in UCLA, 92% is a pass!!
so a pass is completely different than a pass in undergrad.
pass is like acceptable. Like I heard something in UCLA, 92% is a pass!!
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Gavin,
I always appreciate your posts and value your opinions, however I think your suggesting mediocrity is acceptatable is rather short sighted. We are living in a highly competitive environment and mediocrity is simply unacceptable. This country has progressed astronomically in the past 200 years because we have had many leaders and intellectuals who thrived to be excellent, not content with being mediocre.
When it comes to tests, there must be a line that devides passing and failing, but in NO way does making 70 percent mean that you are really competent. I know many students who are lazy/unmotivated as f***, who hardly study and score 75 on tests. I ask them a question after the test and they look at me clueless. Would I want such a person to be my doctor, dentist, trial lawyer, heart surgeon? hells no.
In my opinion, those who we trust with important positions in the society such as doctors should be more than mediocre. Throughout professional school, we should expect students will uphold the high standards that got them in that position in the first place. Its sad that many people thrive for excellence in their undergrad years in order to get into dental school, and once in just want to "pass". It shows a lot of selfishness.
You say that one with high scores on every test will not make a better dentist. I think you're right and wrong. Maybe a student who scored mediocre on every test can still extract a tooth, or cut a tooth in an acceptable manner, but being a doctor is more than that. We are supposed to be the leaders of our field. We are the ones who are responsible for carrying dentistry into a new era and new heights. For that, each and every one of us must thrive to be excellent.
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Great goal/ambition, ShawnOne.
Just want to let you know the reality.
At the present moment, Medicare(seems like mediocrity) doesnt cover dental insurance unless very special cases.
Your quote:
This country has progressed astronomically in the past 200 years because we have had many leaders and intellectuals who thrived to be excellent, not content with being mediocre.
Hum, if we are so great, how come most elderly people dont have dental coverage? As a nation, we spent the most on health, but we only rank 26 in the quality of care. What happens to our leaders?
Then another point is that,
idealism is different from reality, too.
I just learned this concept from a dental student yesterday.
In dental school, your practice denture can be perfect. but in reality, not everything is perfect.
As a professional, we could only use our best judgement to provide the best treatment for our patients. With that standard, the margin is huge. This is how the 70% comes into place.
With all being said, I believe all accredited dental schools have a pretty high standard. Even though it might be 70%, it is quite high to be acceptable. If a dentist passes his/her national/state board, it also means they are competent to provide service.
Just want to let you know the reality.
At the present moment, Medicare(seems like mediocrity) doesnt cover dental insurance unless very special cases.
Your quote:
This country has progressed astronomically in the past 200 years because we have had many leaders and intellectuals who thrived to be excellent, not content with being mediocre.
Hum, if we are so great, how come most elderly people dont have dental coverage? As a nation, we spent the most on health, but we only rank 26 in the quality of care. What happens to our leaders?
Then another point is that,
idealism is different from reality, too.
I just learned this concept from a dental student yesterday.
In dental school, your practice denture can be perfect. but in reality, not everything is perfect.
As a professional, we could only use our best judgement to provide the best treatment for our patients. With that standard, the margin is huge. This is how the 70% comes into place.
With all being said, I believe all accredited dental schools have a pretty high standard. Even though it might be 70%, it is quite high to be acceptable. If a dentist passes his/her national/state board, it also means they are competent to provide service.
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ecdoesit,
That kinda ticks me off.
I dont see how a shortcoming in medical insurance coverage makes this country not great. and speaking of medical care, aren't we the biggest provider of humanitarian help in the world?
You wanna talk about a great country, where has all the advances in technology come from in the past 200 years? Where was the automobile invented? Where were global markets developed? Who started the information age? Who has made all the biotechnolgy breakthroughs? Where do twins come to get seperated when attached at the head? The list goes on and on.. great country in my book.
In order to shape the future, dont we need the right ideals?
I understand that not everything WILL be perfect, and that realistically you wont score 90+% on every test. My point was that we should thrive for excellence, rather than be content with mediocrity.
If we thrive to be excellent, as a whole, we make better dentists.
I stand by what i said, and will disagree.
That kinda ticks me off.
I dont see how a shortcoming in medical insurance coverage makes this country not great. and speaking of medical care, aren't we the biggest provider of humanitarian help in the world?
You wanna talk about a great country, where has all the advances in technology come from in the past 200 years? Where was the automobile invented? Where were global markets developed? Who started the information age? Who has made all the biotechnolgy breakthroughs? Where do twins come to get seperated when attached at the head? The list goes on and on.. great country in my book.
In order to shape the future, dont we need the right ideals?
I understand that not everything WILL be perfect, and that realistically you wont score 90+% on every test. My point was that we should thrive for excellence, rather than be content with mediocrity.
If we thrive to be excellent, as a whole, we make better dentists.
I stand by what i said, and will disagree.
There is a great difference between a true leader and a politician (who also may be CALLED a leader) with a self-serving political agenda. Medicare coverage with respect to Rx drugs and all of the other no-brainer type things have not happened yet ,but should have, (like Rx coverage via medicare) because of high-powered lobbiests on the hill advocating anti-Rx drug coverage. As long as we have high-powered lobbiests on the hill who are in the self-serving business of making money as profiteers, the system that seems so good will always be corrupt.
As for quality of care. The country probably only ranks 26th for quality of care because of the give-and-take principle. It's simple if you ask me. The country has spent so much money on our health care system and on research and technology that it was initially tempting to over-utilize. Just run a test here and another just to be sure---so many choices. As a result of the over-utilization of resources, the system of managed care stepped in to regulate---insurance companies have also had a serious effect on the quality of care, too. So, albiet the large advances in research and technology, the education of health practicioners and the quality of service provided has been compromised. Because of salary caps, capitation, and large premiums on the behalf of insurance companies, doctors are refusing to teach for free, and doctors have decided (or been forced) to minimize important diagnostic tests, keep patients in the hospital for shorter periods of time, and all sorts of ways that practice "under-utilization" for the purpose of not being penalized and to save a buck or to. Since it is the third-party payers that are really making the decisons for the doctors, the quaility of care has naturally gone down because of utilization review boards breathing down doctor's backs--it is very stressful for them and naturally this will be reflected in how they practice. Why do you think a lot of docs don't want to see medicaid patients? Because they don't get reimbursed worth squat. Doctors are just like everybody else-- they need to survive. You expect that if you go to school for half your life to at least have an appreciable income and live a satisfactory life. I would say that with quality of care, the quality of life of the doctor has gone down, too.
As for quality of care. The country probably only ranks 26th for quality of care because of the give-and-take principle. It's simple if you ask me. The country has spent so much money on our health care system and on research and technology that it was initially tempting to over-utilize. Just run a test here and another just to be sure---so many choices. As a result of the over-utilization of resources, the system of managed care stepped in to regulate---insurance companies have also had a serious effect on the quality of care, too. So, albiet the large advances in research and technology, the education of health practicioners and the quality of service provided has been compromised. Because of salary caps, capitation, and large premiums on the behalf of insurance companies, doctors are refusing to teach for free, and doctors have decided (or been forced) to minimize important diagnostic tests, keep patients in the hospital for shorter periods of time, and all sorts of ways that practice "under-utilization" for the purpose of not being penalized and to save a buck or to. Since it is the third-party payers that are really making the decisons for the doctors, the quaility of care has naturally gone down because of utilization review boards breathing down doctor's backs--it is very stressful for them and naturally this will be reflected in how they practice. Why do you think a lot of docs don't want to see medicaid patients? Because they don't get reimbursed worth squat. Doctors are just like everybody else-- they need to survive. You expect that if you go to school for half your life to at least have an appreciable income and live a satisfactory life. I would say that with quality of care, the quality of life of the doctor has gone down, too.
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People lack dental insurance is not a shortcoming.
Did we ever have adequate dental treatment for everyone?
I assume that one of the reasons why we go into dentistry is that we feel dental health is vital to everyone.
This is one thing that we have to improve.
Ok, we are great country, but I dont think all of our leaders have the 90% test-score or something equipvalent. Yet we are still great.
Same analogy, it is a nice thought to strive for perfect rather than minimum, but perfection may not be necessary to make something great.
You can be the most ideal dentist, but without patient's ability to pay, how could u deliever your skills? How could people benefit from us?
Did we ever have adequate dental treatment for everyone?
I assume that one of the reasons why we go into dentistry is that we feel dental health is vital to everyone.
This is one thing that we have to improve.
Ok, we are great country, but I dont think all of our leaders have the 90% test-score or something equipvalent. Yet we are still great.
Same analogy, it is a nice thought to strive for perfect rather than minimum, but perfection may not be necessary to make something great.
You can be the most ideal dentist, but without patient's ability to pay, how could u deliever your skills? How could people benefit from us?
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I think this thread has gone awry, but nevertheless?_
Wow. Are you kidding? Certainly, for those of us who are going to be health care providers, and make meaningful and lasting contributions to the field, this mentality simply can not exist. If there are people out there who are content with less than outstanding and exceptional work ?C please, find something else to do and save me the embarrassment of knowing that you have stained the fabric of this profession.
True, but for people who are ??simply passing?? ?C they walk a fine line of not becoming dentists at all.
Enough of the straw man arguments already. I cited one ??possible?? scenario in which students grades could vary. Besides, this only validates my point about relieving tensions at in the classroom. Not everyone is going to be in the top 10% of the class ?C be it poor inherently poor genes, study habits, drug addiction, whatever?_a P/F/H system (without rankings) is going to drastically cut down on a normal distribution of students (i.e. Far more than ~68% are going to receive a P, not to mention the few people who get an H). If students are continuously cognizant of where their scores rank next to everyone else, there will undoubtedly be more pressure and anxiety to perform well.
Are you in dental school? Gimme a break.
Perhaps most elderly people don??t have teeth? No, but seriously, I think that 26th ranking has to do with infant mortality rates, and I believe that IMR??s in our country have a lot to do with the disparity between various economic backgrounds of our fragmented population. The IMR for black children has been estimated at more than twice that for white children (according to WHO reports) ?C but, whatever.
Wow. Are you kidding? Certainly, for those of us who are going to be health care providers, and make meaningful and lasting contributions to the field, this mentality simply can not exist. If there are people out there who are content with less than outstanding and exceptional work ?C please, find something else to do and save me the embarrassment of knowing that you have stained the fabric of this profession.
True, but for people who are ??simply passing?? ?C they walk a fine line of not becoming dentists at all.
Enough of the straw man arguments already. I cited one ??possible?? scenario in which students grades could vary. Besides, this only validates my point about relieving tensions at in the classroom. Not everyone is going to be in the top 10% of the class ?C be it poor inherently poor genes, study habits, drug addiction, whatever?_a P/F/H system (without rankings) is going to drastically cut down on a normal distribution of students (i.e. Far more than ~68% are going to receive a P, not to mention the few people who get an H). If students are continuously cognizant of where their scores rank next to everyone else, there will undoubtedly be more pressure and anxiety to perform well.
Are you in dental school? Gimme a break.
Perhaps most elderly people don??t have teeth? No, but seriously, I think that 26th ranking has to do with infant mortality rates, and I believe that IMR??s in our country have a lot to do with the disparity between various economic backgrounds of our fragmented population. The IMR for black children has been estimated at more than twice that for white children (according to WHO reports) ?C but, whatever.
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btw, I feel sorry if my wording ticked u off.
I kinda feel ashame that our great country has flaws in my future profession!!
It is important what we do with the problems to help out the situation.
Just curious, is there a feedback system to report dentists who are not doing a good job? I would like to hear what they say.
Please explain to me why would a dentist do a bad job on a patient?
It just doesnt make sense to do a poor job in someone's mouth.
Patients are precise to us. They are feeding us. We want them to come back, right? If we dont do a good job, they wont come back. So we are forced to have a rather high standard anyway. Either we learn that from tests, or we learn it from practicing.
Another thing. I believe the P/F system is used to reduce competition. I donno how well it works, but I highly doubt a Pass is much different than a C. Like what i have posted, for some school, their passing requirement is so high that competency will be reached.
I kinda feel ashame that our great country has flaws in my future profession!!
It is important what we do with the problems to help out the situation.
Just curious, is there a feedback system to report dentists who are not doing a good job? I would like to hear what they say.
Please explain to me why would a dentist do a bad job on a patient?
It just doesnt make sense to do a poor job in someone's mouth.
Patients are precise to us. They are feeding us. We want them to come back, right? If we dont do a good job, they wont come back. So we are forced to have a rather high standard anyway. Either we learn that from tests, or we learn it from practicing.
Another thing. I believe the P/F system is used to reduce competition. I donno how well it works, but I highly doubt a Pass is much different than a C. Like what i have posted, for some school, their passing requirement is so high that competency will be reached.
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itsgavinC:
i initially thought along the same line as you- that as long as I pass it's ok. However, i have come to the realization that this is simply not good enough. As professionals we should always make an effort in doing the best, and that includes acquiring the kind of knowledge they put on exams.
you may argue that the stuff they teach don't matter in the real world, but your mentality will bring you down. Today, it's "as long as I pass I'll be a dentist". How do you know that tomorrow you won't think "Oh as long as the patient pays and doesn't complain I'll continue with my mediocre treatments"?
you may scoff at it now...but it's really terrible how quickly such mentality can degenerate....believe me i've been down that road
i initially thought along the same line as you- that as long as I pass it's ok. However, i have come to the realization that this is simply not good enough. As professionals we should always make an effort in doing the best, and that includes acquiring the kind of knowledge they put on exams.
you may argue that the stuff they teach don't matter in the real world, but your mentality will bring you down. Today, it's "as long as I pass I'll be a dentist". How do you know that tomorrow you won't think "Oh as long as the patient pays and doesn't complain I'll continue with my mediocre treatments"?
you may scoff at it now...but it's really terrible how quickly such mentality can degenerate....believe me i've been down that road
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No worries, I was only ticked for a second.
I agree that it would be nice to have better insurance for our citizens. Thats the shortcoming of our elected officials like a previousl posted stated.
There is a feedback system, its called the BBB and ADA.
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Hehe, just want to say that we will eventually develop adequate standard in our practice. Yet I am sure that our national standard is high, not to mention ADA's standard.
My ultimate question is still whether those standards that are set by your sch, state, ADA meet patient's standard?
My ultimate question is still whether those standards that are set by your sch, state, ADA meet patient's standard?
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Highly doubtful. I think a 70% is a pass at 99% of dental schools in the US.
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Of course they will! You guys are assuming that a great grade means you will be a better clinician and provide better patient care. That simply isn't true.
Passing is called passing for a reason. It means you have mastered the subject matter according to 1) your school and 2) the American Dental Education Association.
Don't fool yourselves. You should always strive for the best you can do, but a dentist who PASSES his courses IS fully competent.
How could somebody who passes NOT be competent?
Shawn, you mentioned that you know people who are lazy and unmotivated yet still pass with 75s. What's your beef? They PASSED. They are COMPETENT, regardless of what you feel about their work ethic.
Contrary to your belief, being satisfied with a passing grade does not equate to selfishness, it equates to REALITY. That is, a system where even the brightest kids in undergrad are only scoring 70-75 on their exams. It's a harsh reality, but a reality nontheless.
To be perfectly honest, I've studied for 40+ hours in a week, and STILL barely passed an exam just because of the sheer amount of material. Grades don't always correlate to the amount of material studied. Our class scores in our Endocrinology exam showed this, as a score of 45% was passing.
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Because the grading system is too forgiving. If you dont know 85% of the stuff you are supposed to, then your not competent, and therefore should not pass.
No beef. What I am saying is that those students can hardly be considered competent at all. If you can hardly know s**t and still pass, its a shame, and a slap in the face of those who work hard, and earn A's. Also, I dont want to hear some bull about people who study 40 hours a week and do poorly. Its like saying someone works hard in the gym everyday but doesnt get results, something is fishy here.
Have you considered it may be partly due to the fact Arizona is a BRAND NEW school, and you guys fly in professors for 1 week and expect to learn everything in that short time? If you guys are scoring 45% average, then something is wrong with your teaching philosophy. I think the whole class should fail.
BTW, I know that Arizona started with a higher grading scale and then adjusted down. Instead of compromsing your expectations, maybe you guys should have adjusted your teaching philosophy to acheiving your goals. That would have been a lot more respectable.
ADDED:
Gavin, honestly, do you personally feel that earning a 45% constitutes "mastering" a subject??
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Shawn, in this thread you're really making an awful lot of assumptions that you have no way to validate. Once you're in school and you have some landmarks to reference, maybe you'll be a little easier to believe. In the meantime, though, you're making blanket statements about what constitutes academic competency in dental school, and you don't even know what kind of material we're expected to <em>learn</em> at any given point, much less what kind of exam grades indicate mastery.
What you're heavily implying in your comments seems to be that the grading scales and competency exams of dental schools nationwide, the NDBE, and licensure exams around the country, collectively fail to hold dentists to an acceptable standard of care. That's a pretty pompous claim for any one individual to make no matter what, and it's not made any more credible coming out of someone who hasn't even begun his professional training yet.
I'm not here telling you to shut up, and I don't think anybody else is either. What I <em>would</em> suggest, however, is dialing back the fervor until you can temper it with some experience of what happens in dental school. Best of luck getting in
What you're heavily implying in your comments seems to be that the grading scales and competency exams of dental schools nationwide, the NDBE, and licensure exams around the country, collectively fail to hold dentists to an acceptable standard of care. That's a pretty pompous claim for any one individual to make no matter what, and it's not made any more credible coming out of someone who hasn't even begun his professional training yet.
I'm not here telling you to shut up, and I don't think anybody else is either. What I <em>would</em> suggest, however, is dialing back the fervor until you can temper it with some experience of what happens in dental school. Best of luck getting in
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Aphistis,
Man. I was execting you to come here and say somthing like that. You say "I'm not telling you to shut up", yet you imply should. If you dont think my opinions are warrented, ignore them.
And yes, thats exactly what I am implying. And I am not alone in thinking the threshold for passing is a joke. , buts thats not the subject of this discussion, its about mediocrity.
The realization that someone could easily waltz through dental school earning 70% is qualified to hold a highly respected position in society is scarey.
BTW, I have been a student for over 20 years, which makes me plenty qualified to state my opinion about grading scales and mediocrity.
Why dont you try giving your opinion instead of trying to discredit mine.
Man. I was execting you to come here and say somthing like that. You say "I'm not telling you to shut up", yet you imply should. If you dont think my opinions are warrented, ignore them.
And yes, thats exactly what I am implying. And I am not alone in thinking the threshold for passing is a joke. , buts thats not the subject of this discussion, its about mediocrity.
The realization that someone could easily waltz through dental school earning 70% is qualified to hold a highly respected position in society is scarey.
BTW, I have been a student for over 20 years, which makes me plenty qualified to state my opinion about grading scales and mediocrity.
Why dont you try giving your opinion instead of trying to discredit mine.
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Tough statment to prove. Yes, I understand your stats is very important, but luck is quite important in the interview: your interviewer, the time, weather, all those factors in.
I guess we are all a bit stressed out as the "live-line" approaching.
I guess we all agree is that if you dont pass, you r not competent.
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I congratulate you on your prescience, then. And I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with your opinions, I simply think they're misinformed. After all, message boards would be boring places if nobody spoke up about disagreements.
Bill Gates is a college dropout. Does that terrify you? The moral here is that academia is a highly artificial environment whose skills by no means necessarily correlate to the real world. I would <em>much</em> rather be treated by a dentistry from the bottom half of his class who is comfortable with and aware of clinical ramifications than a class valedictorian who was more concerned with what a pulp exposure would do to his grade than what it would do to his patient. These people exist.
This is malarkey and you know it. So you've been a student for 20 years. 13 years of it took place before you received your high school diploma, and probably at least four of the remaining seven or so were spent pursuing a bachelor's. How much time out of that twenty years has been spent in dental school?
I think you're taking my responses far too personally, myself. I am offering my opinion, and I'd hardly say I'm attempting to "discredit you" as much as offer a simple, fair challenge on your qualifications to offer the kind of criticism you have been.
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I appologize for the previous statement Bill (quoted by ecdosit). It was childish of me. again, my appologies.
Also Gavin, my intentions were not to insult your school.
I dont know how this discussion got into passing % anyway. I guess it was my fault.
My original statement was that people shouldnt be content with doing mediocre. Nothing more.
Also Gavin, my intentions were not to insult your school.
I dont know how this discussion got into passing % anyway. I guess it was my fault.
My original statement was that people shouldnt be content with doing mediocre. Nothing more.
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I dont wanna get involved in this heated arguement.........after all, i dont need to make an idiot of another dental student in here again....
I just want to say that shawn's quote reminds me of that "Juicy Juice" commercial.....the one where a spokesperson make a comparison with 100% satisfaction vs. a 10% satisfaction..........the one where this guy pushes his kid in a go-kart that guarantees 10% satisfaction down the street, and half-way down the block, everything starts to fall apart...........
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I'll drink to that.
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You didn't. You just made an ass out of yourself and proved that you've never had a dental school course.
I find it interesting that you demand that 70% is NOT competent, even though decades of dental professionals have deemed it is.
You're probably in for a rude awakening when you take the board exams. For example, on the NBDE 1, getting 70/100 questions correct will get you a 90 score. You ought to wake up all those residents and tell them they aren't competent. I'm sure they'd appreciate it.
I'd like to see some evidence (ANY evidence) that a student who has 70% marks is a poorer dentist than one who has 95% marks. To the exact opposite, it is more likely that the patients will much more enjoy seeing that "social bug dental student" who scored 70s throughout his schooling. It is all about the patients, right?
And lastly, I'm curious how you gauge mediocrity. You must realize that it is an INDIVIDUAL criteria. What's mediocre for the single folks in my class isn't going to be mediocre for me, a married guy with a child and one on the way in 5 months. Those who are married with children can testify that an 80% is a damn good score on any dental exam.
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Good commercial, BTW.
I don't know to whom you are referring, but I will say that your amazing (seriously) NBDE I score of 98 (!!) equates to ~85% on the exam.
Would Shawn consider that mediocre? After all, an 85 is merely a B. But alas, that "B" was a phenomenal score, and the best I've ever personally heard of.
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To Shawn:
No hard feelings, I fully respect your opinion (that's the great thing about SDN).
I do feel, however, that you are equating a 70% in dental school to a 70% in undergrad. They are two completely different realms and don't correlate at all. Comparing my undergrad education to dental school, I'd say a 70% in dental school is about the same as a 95% at my alma mater.
Thanks for your posts, we are all what has made SDN (especially the dental forums!) an excellent place to be.
No hard feelings, I fully respect your opinion (that's the great thing about SDN).
I do feel, however, that you are equating a 70% in dental school to a 70% in undergrad. They are two completely different realms and don't correlate at all. Comparing my undergrad education to dental school, I'd say a 70% in dental school is about the same as a 95% at my alma mater.
Thanks for your posts, we are all what has made SDN (especially the dental forums!) an excellent place to be.
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Shawn, will all do respect it is a good thing you are going into dentistry instead of law. You are trashing school and test scores that you have absolutely no experience with. Well, you don't even have experience with ANY school for that matter. Until you provide supportive facts that a "45% class average" on a particular area is sufficiently lower than the national average, then your statements will make sense. But just pulling those statements out of the big blue does not get any credit with me as well as anyone else who has intelligent opinions. Aphistis and Gavin can say "been there, done that" and that speaks volumes to your "opinions." Just some food for thought...
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I find many things on these message boards interesting, thats why I keep coming back. I hardly watch TV anymore which is also good.
No hard feelings Gavin, maybe I made an ass out of myself, but I still stand by what i said, In order to shape the future of our profession, we should thrive for excellence, not settle for mediocrity.
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Shawn, I agree with you 100%. Just remember that what is excellent for one person may not be excellent for another.
In order to shape the future of our profession, we should thrive for excellence, not settle for mediocrity.
Rock on---Bad Religion (a band) all the way baby!!
Here's a quote from the lead singer of Bad Religion, Greg Graffin:
"It is as much a truism in music, as in politics [and academia]: If you offer the people nothing but mediocrity, you will create a mediocre people."
Rock on---Bad Religion (a band) all the way baby!!
Here's a quote from the lead singer of Bad Religion, Greg Graffin:
"It is as much a truism in music, as in politics [and academia]: If you offer the people nothing but mediocrity, you will create a mediocre people."
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This may have nothing to do with this thread
but something to think about.
Should we sacrifice a little bit of perfection to devote more time to treat more patient(increase our efficiency)?
but something to think about.
Should we sacrifice a little bit of perfection to devote more time to treat more patient(increase our efficiency)?
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In situations of overwhelming need, such as if you are doing dentistry in extremely underpriviledged areas, yes.
Back in September, a few of my classmates flew down to rural West Virginia to provide free dental care for a weekend to an Appalachian community that has no dentists . They had to triage the huge number of patients and do extractions that in a more ideal situation the tooth would otherwise be saved. Sometimes there just isn't enough resources for "ideal" dentistry, unfortunately.
My $0.02 on attitude towards dental education: The conversation always tends to swing towards the extremes: There are those who are satisfied with achieving just the bare minimums to pass, and brainiacs who want to specialize and so they try to get all A's. I'm somewhere in the middle-- I don't want to specialize so my grades are not critical, but I still want to learn as much as I can while in dental school (a byproduct of which is doing well academically). I'd rather be the dentist everyone refers unusual cases to (and command higher fees) than the one who has to refer lots of cases out.
Back in September, a few of my classmates flew down to rural West Virginia to provide free dental care for a weekend to an Appalachian community that has no dentists . They had to triage the huge number of patients and do extractions that in a more ideal situation the tooth would otherwise be saved. Sometimes there just isn't enough resources for "ideal" dentistry, unfortunately.
My $0.02 on attitude towards dental education: The conversation always tends to swing towards the extremes: There are those who are satisfied with achieving just the bare minimums to pass, and brainiacs who want to specialize and so they try to get all A's. I'm somewhere in the middle-- I don't want to specialize so my grades are not critical, but I still want to learn as much as I can while in dental school (a byproduct of which is doing well academically). I'd rather be the dentist everyone refers unusual cases to (and command higher fees) than the one who has to refer lots of cases out.
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Good post Tom,
Before I post, let me say the following OPINION is based upon spending many hours volunteering/shadowing over 5 different dentists, and addresses the question from a private practice perspective. Please, no posts about not having an acceptance letter.
The theoretical answer is no, you shouldnt compromise perfection for efficiency, but in reality, I dont think economics allows it in the real world. Maybe some dentists charge enough for their time so that they can get the procedure to absolute perfection (like you probably do in dental school). I think many dont. They will do an acceptable and ethical job, but I have not seen ANY bust out loupes and start analyzing every tiny aspect. In fact, I havent seen many dentist use a rubber dam to isolate either (with the exception of a few molar root canals).
Efficiency seems to be an unescapable part of running a dental practice.
ADDED:
These dentists were all veterans (15+ years), with the exception of one.
Before I post, let me say the following OPINION is based upon spending many hours volunteering/shadowing over 5 different dentists, and addresses the question from a private practice perspective. Please, no posts about not having an acceptance letter.
The theoretical answer is no, you shouldnt compromise perfection for efficiency, but in reality, I dont think economics allows it in the real world. Maybe some dentists charge enough for their time so that they can get the procedure to absolute perfection (like you probably do in dental school). I think many dont. They will do an acceptable and ethical job, but I have not seen ANY bust out loupes and start analyzing every tiny aspect. In fact, I havent seen many dentist use a rubber dam to isolate either (with the exception of a few molar root canals).
Efficiency seems to be an unescapable part of running a dental practice.
ADDED:
These dentists were all veterans (15+ years), with the exception of one.
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hahahha party the night before and get a 66.... if you really think that's likly to happen...(maybe if you're really smart and you've studied your a** off weeks in advance and if it just happens to be an easy exam) then it's possible here....
the two times, I ended up having some small obligation (old roommate visiting and something else) I ended up doing really bad (in relative to the class).
Trust me, you think a 66 is easy, and it probably is at some schools..... but when you have (for example: Anatomy) exams where the averge is around 50's or 60's... a 66 isn't all that easy to get (sometimes)...
my bestest buddy goes to ucla and they're on a EPR, P, marigianl P, F system and I went to ucla for undergrad and spent many hours a week at the dental school... a lot of their students get into specailties... maybe it has something to do w/ the system, or maybe they're just really smart there....
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Good posts, Star. You're right, a 45 or so is FAR from typical and normal, but on some exams that's what happens!
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Originally posted by Dentaldream
Are you serious? I've shadowed with 4 dentists, and they all used loupes and rubber dams. Strange.
Ive shadowed 4 dentists, I can only remember one using loupes and one other one using rubber dam.
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Originally posted by StarGirl
98...psssssshhh that's not that impressive
Hey hey hey!!! Watch your mouth there young lady! Keep talking like that and I wont give you any more advice in class!!
