Patient dies on Kings County Hospital floor

[Depakote]

I grew up with and am close with a lot of people that would be considered on this board to be "worthless." I have shared food stamps with my friends when they had nothing to eat at their houses, and they did the same for me. I stayed with one of my "worthless" friends for several months when my mother couldn't afford rent and we were kicked out of our apartment. I've had friends that I would hang out with at the salvation army almost all of the time when I was younger. I have even done a lot of the things that "worthless" people do, not that I am proud of doing those things. I have had a lot of things happen to me that most people on this board would kill themselves over. None of this really matters. All that matters is that people who have no idea what they are talking about are the ones quickest to subjugate and demean others. I generally tend not to mind when I hear some of the ignorant statements made on this board, but for some reason Panda really grinds my proverbial gears. Is that enough divulgence for you?

Maybe I missed it... but I don't think anyone said all poor were "worthless". Actually, in your rush to take offense, you were the only one using that term in this thread.

There is a difference between those that are simply poor and those poor that regularly abuse the health-care system. I don't think anyone is trying to make this about lack of money except you. The issue panda and other health-care veterans have is that there is a significant number of people regularly abusing the system designed to assist the poor and those people are not accountable in any way for the services they use.

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[scarletgirl777]

Why are so many people on this forum so eager to crush idealism? What's the purpose of doing that?

 

[Dienekes]

Why are so many people on this forum so eager to crush idealism? What's the purpose of doing that?

Because the sooner it happens, the less painful it will be. Also, would you rather we do it or would you prefer to have an attending physician or senior resident chew you out so thoroughly that you are bleeding from your anus?

 

[parto123]

I grew up with and am close with a lot of people that would be considered on this board to be "worthless." I have shared food stamps with my friends when they had nothing to eat at their houses, and they did the same for me.

What makes you think that youre some type of authority on the poor and indigent? When people disagree with your Sociology 101 worldview, you automatically assume they have lived sheltered lives. Plenty of people have grown up poor and have been exposed to poor people, and often times its their very upbringing or exposure which causes them to be more cynical or critical. In fact, its usually the totally sheltered well-off suburbian kid- who is away at a fancy private college- who is most likely to share your idealistic view.

 

[135892]

Why are so many people on this forum so eager to crush idealism? What's the purpose of doing that?

, seriously guys... shame on you

 

[zenlike]

What makes you think that youre some type of authority on the poor and indigent? When people disagree with your Sociology 101 worldview, you automatically assume they have lived sheltered lives. Plenty of people have grown up poor and have been exposed to poor people, and often times its their very upbringing or exposure which causes them to be more cynical or critical. In fact, its usually the totally sheltered well-off suburbian kid- who is away at a fancy private college- who is most likely to share your idealistic view.

I grew up poor in the U.S. and I can tell you first hand it gets pretty scary when you or your parents get sick and when you're barely keeping yourself fed. As far as laziness goes, there are lazy people in all walks of life. I'm sure they're plenty of trust fund kids out there who aren't doing much with their lives--but I don't see anyone saying they shouldn't be getting health care.

 

[Dienekes]

I grew up poor in the U.S. and I can tell you first hand it gets pretty scary when you or your parents get sick and when you're barely keeping yourself fed. As far as laziness goes, there are lazy people in all walks of life. I'm sure they're plenty of trust fund kids out there who aren't doing much with their lives--but I don't see anyone saying they shouldn't be getting health care.

Very true, but they have the means to afford that health care, so they won't be sponging off of society to pay for it. They have enough leeway to afford to be lazy. Poor people do not have that. Think of it as a survival pressure- they can't afford to be lazy any more than an antelope on the African plains can afford to have a gimpy leg.

 

[zenlike]

Very true, but they have the means to afford that health care, so they won't be sponging off of society to pay for it. They have enough leeway to afford to be lazy. Poor people do not have that. Think of it as a survival pressure- they can't afford to be lazy any more than an antelope on the African plains can afford to have a gimpy leg.

I agree that the trust fund kid has the means to pay for their health care. However, I don't agree that the trust fund kid is morally superior. I would say that where the poor individual is sponging, the affluent individual is squandering in this case.

 

[Dienekes]

I agree that the trust fund kid has the means to pay for their health care. However, I don't agree that the trust fund kid is morally superior. I would say that where the poor individual is sponging, the affluent individual is squandering in this case.

I didn't say that they are morally superior, just better positioned to function without any appreciable work ethic.

 

[Bacchus]

I grew up with and am close with a lot of people that would be considered on this board to be "worthless." I have shared food stamps with my friends when they had nothing to eat at their houses, and they did the same for me. I stayed with one of my "worthless" friends for several months when my mother couldn't afford rent and we were kicked out of our apartment. I've had friends that I would hang out with at the salvation army almost all of the time when I was younger. I have even done a lot of the things that "worthless" people do, not that I am proud of doing those things. I have had a lot of things happen to me that most people on this board would kill themselves over. None of this really matters. All that matters is that people who have no idea what they are talking about are the ones quickest to subjugate and demean others. I generally tend not to mind when I hear some of the ignorant statements made on this board, but for some reason Panda really grinds my proverbial gears. Is that enough divulgence for you?

Your post isn't hitting the nail on the head and you're missing the 2X4 too. Panda, and many others, are "demeaning" the underserved (seriously?) that have done it to themselves. Someone does not just roll in to drug addiction or alcoholism. He or she brings it on himself. There are plenty of people that could turn to drugs or alcohol but don't and turn out just fine without sucking the funds out of the government or the healthcare industry. Give foodstamps to the people that lost jobs. Provide free healthcare to them too. However, there is no reason that it should be provided to those that have destroyed their lives out of idiocy. If you want to hit the crack pipe then pay for your own healthcare.

 

[zenlike]

You're post isn't hitting the nail on the head and you're missing the 2X4 too. Panda, and many others, are "demeaning" the underserved (seriously?) that have done it to themselves. Someone does not just roll in to drug addiction or alcoholism. He or she brings it on himself. There are plenty of people that could turn to drugs or alcohol but don't and turn out just fine without sucking the funds out of the government or the healthcare industry. Give foodstamps to the people that lost jobs. Provide free healthcare to them too. However, there is no reason that it should be provided to those that have destroyed their lives out of idiocy. If you want to hit the crack pipe then pay for your own healthcare.

At some level, you have to take some responsibility for the things you do. However, there has to be something genetic or something in your environment or both to even get you to the place you need to be to even pick up said crack pipe. Perhaps I'm taking it the wrong way, but it seems like you're saying that someone who is suffering from depression should just cheer up. Substance abuse is a disease that affected by brain chemistry.

 

[Bacchus]

At some level, you have to take some responsibility for the things you do. However, there has to be something genetic or something in your environment or both to even get you to the place you need to be to even pick up said crack pipe. Perhaps I'm taking it the wrong way, but it seems like you're saying that someone who is suffering from depression should just cheer up. Substance abuse is a disease that affected by brain chemistry.

Of course there are genetic and environmental factors. However, I'm in an environment where many close family members smoke. Do I smoke. No. Some of the family has abused alcohol, do I? No. It comes down to your personal convictions and will. Sure, I could have said "Gimme a cig" or took solace in alcohol but I haven't. Is this because I have superior "brain chemistry?" Nope. People sometimes take paths that are of least resistance even though they know the paths have dead ends. We should not have to pay for that.

Depression isn't a disease you just "cheer up" to cure.

 

[zenlike]

Of course there are genetic and environmental factors. However, I'm in an environment where many close family members smoke. Do I smoke. No. Some of the family has abused alcohol, do I? No. It comes down to your personal convictions and will. Sure, I could have said "Gimme a cig" or took solace in alcohol but I haven't. Is this because I have superior "brain chemistry?" Nope. People sometimes take paths that are of least resistance even though they know the paths have dead ends. We should not have to pay for that.

Depression isn't a disease you just "cheer up" to cure.

And where does this "will" of yours to avoid these addictions come from? If you say genetics or environment (ie supportive parents) then you're just supporting my argument.

 

[Bacchus]

And where does this "will" of yours to avoid these addictions come from? If you say genetics or environment (ie supportive parents) then you're just supporting my argument.

I chose will, other people choose the path of least resistance. I never said you were wrong. However, I don't feel sorry for those that haven't done the "right thing." Anyway you cut it, they didn't have to start smoking crack or choose alcohol addiction. Its taxing to the society.

 

[zenlike]

You didn't answer my question: where did you get your willpower?

 

[Bacchus]

You didn't answer my question: where did you get your willpower?

My will came from observation which came from the environment. Like I said, I never called you wrong.

 

[Charles English]

Because the sooner it happens, the less painful it will be. Also, would you rather we do it or would you prefer to have an attending physician or senior resident chew you out so thoroughly that you are bleeding from your anus?

love it.

the italics are priceless and the bold is too true.
for me, the battle is keeping things somewhere between idealism and pure, unadulterated cynicism.
i understand that this can be a challenge, depending on where i work in medicine.

the Kings county incident sucks. it is sad and unnecessary...but this Winterlights V. Panda scuffle is priceless. a nerve has been struck indeed.

 

[Bacchus]

love it.

the italics are priceless and the bold is too true.
for me, the battle is keeping things somewhere between idealism and pure, unadulterated cynicism.
i understand that this can be a challenge, depending on where i work in medicine.

the Kings county incident sucks. it is sad and unnecessary...but this Winterlights V. Panda scuffle is priceless. a nerve has been struck indeed.

I used to be head-in-the-clouds Bacchus but then I read some of Panda's pandering and dienekes as well. Add to it walking by the clinic everyday on the way to class and my head came down real quickly.

 

[Dienekes]

Of course there are genetic and environmental factors. However, I'm in an environment where many close family members smoke. Do I smoke. No. Some of the family has abused alcohol, do I? No. It comes down to your personal convictions and will. Sure, I could have said "Gimme a cig" or took solace in alcohol but I haven't. Is this because I have superior "brain chemistry?" Nope. People sometimes take paths that are of least resistance even though they know the paths have dead ends. We should not have to pay for that.

Depression isn't a disease you just "cheer up" to cure.

My mom's side of the family has a history of alcoholism and ethnic cleansing. I don't drink and I've never committed anything I would consider a war crime.

 

[Bacchus]

My mom's side of the family has a history of alcoholism and ethnic cleansing. I don't drink and I've never committed anything I would consider a war crime.

And this is why we agree on many things. And, I'm sure you can say somewhat that my opinions have changed .

 

[Dienekes]

And this is why we agree on many things. And, I'm sure you can say somewhat that my opinions have changed .

So who did your family ethnically cleanse?

 

[Bacchus]

I think my roots are 100% German :-\. But, I'm not sure.

 

[Bacchus]

And to anyone that takes that out context I was agreeing with his I'm not an alcoholic or war machine despite my environment comment.

 

[brogers]

Just wanted to lighten up the mood in here a little...

 

[Dienekes]

 

[Lukkie]

Why are so many people on this forum so eager to crush idealism? What's the purpose of doing that?

realism > idealism

ah screw it. not worth arguing with someone named "scarletgirl777"

 

[greg1184]

Why are so many people on this forum so eager to crush idealism? What's the purpose of doing that?

Welcome to the stone cold, cynical world of the internet message board full of some of the most bitter people you will encounter.

 

[Bacchus]

Welcome to the stone cold, cynical world of the internet message board full of some of the most bitter people you will encounter.

Aka the real-freaking-world.

 

[Dienekes]

Aka the real-freaking-world.

Just what I was thinking....

 

[tncekm]

You seem to have little attachment to the community in which you were raised. Would you mind divulging exactly how you ended up in college/on your way to medical school? Please mention specific people and experiences that influenced your life positively.

Well, how 'bout I just send you a copy of my personal statement?

Then think about how your life would have been had you never met those individuals nor experienced those life shaping experiences.

Well, this goes both ways. If you remove good or bad influences in anybody's life things could have changed... so what?

I too come from a poor upbringing, and I can tell you that I would (without a doubt) not be where I am today were it not for those few people who positively influenced my life, as well as those feelings of inadequacy triggered by going to schools where people had it much better than I did.

I'm sorry you have feelings of inadequacy, but from my personal experience people having nicer things than you isn't where your feelings of inadequacy come from. If that were the case, I'd feel quite inadequate... but I don't.

Also, being poor is only one indicator of how ****ty of a life you have. Abuse, family/community violence, the prevalence of drugs in the community, educational opportunities, and myriad other things all dictate what people will become.

Well, with the exception of physical violence (it was relatively uncommon in my household), I've had plenty of experiences with the others, and I still maintain that a poor influence is a bad excuse. However, my personal experiences in conjunction with those of my very closest friends sufficiently cover the "myriad of other things" that you say "dictates" what people will become. Those things influenced us, but not detrimentally and they sure as hell didn't dictate what we would become.

Give our little human brain a little credit... its not play-dough.

Its okay if you do not believe any of what I just said. I would not expect you to considering your post.

I don't know why you've got to start getting derogatory. You've been running around calling people names acting as if your "feelings" are the only ones that matter and that are the only ones reflective of all of humanity and then you get pissy because people don't fall in step with your "feelings" and beliefs. That's ridiculous.

 

[WinterLights]

Well, how 'bout I just send you a copy of my personal statement?

Well, this goes both ways. If you remove good or bad influences in anybody's life things could have changed... so what?

I'm sorry you have feelings of inadequacy, but from my personal experience people having nicer things than you isn't where your feelings of inadequacy come from. If that were the case, I'd feel quite inadequate... but I don't.


Well, with the exception of physical violence (it was relatively uncommon in my household), I've had plenty of experiences with the others, and I still maintain that a poor influence is a bad excuse. However, my personal experiences in conjunction with those of my very closest friends sufficiently cover the "myriad of other things" that you say "dictates" what people will become. Those things influenced us, but not detrimentally and they sure as hell didn't dictate what we would become.

Give our little human brain a little credit... its not play-dough.


I don't know why you've got to start getting derogatory. You've been running around calling people names acting as if your "feelings" are the only ones that matter and that are the only ones reflective of all of humanity and then you get pissy because people don't fall in step with your "feelings" and beliefs. That's ridiculous.

I was not being derogatory, simply saying that you and I have different opinions on the matter and I know that no matter what i say; you will believe what you believe regardless. This was evidenced by your post. I was not attempting to attack you in any way. Anyone can believe what they would like to believe, but my personal opinion on the matter is that we are all products of the innumerable variables that have led up to this point in time. I have not always believed this to be true, and at many times in my life I have wanted to blame others for what they have done to others and to myself. I have wanted to attribute the attrocities of humankind to choices actively made by people. But I came to a realization that we are merely a product of an extremely complex reality and ultimately it make us who we are. I could sit here and elaborate about this issue in detail, but this is not really the place for that. Again, we all have the right to believe what it is that we would like to believe, but I fail to see how even at the most basic of levels, someone can believe that billions of people have made the same mistakes simply because they can. This is my last post in this thread (my other one was supposed to be my last one.) If you want to discuss this further, feel free to PM me.

 

[Perrotfish]

Originally Posted by WinterLights
I can say with absolute certainty that the staff would not have waited an hour to respond to a collapsed wealthy patient

Based on WHAT? Your opinion? Your biases? Your feelings?

The staff would know that a wealthy patient was not faking, because wealthy patients do not fake. Wealthy patients do not seek the comforts of a hospital because they are perfectly capable of seeking the comforts of a nicer hotel/spa. They do not seek drugs because they are perfectly capable of buying drugs. Finally the staff would know that, failing all of that, a wealthy patient would be much morel likely to sue. They would have gone much further out of their way.

Most of them are the "way they are" because of poor choices, poor breeding or just good ol' fashioned stupidity. I can count on one hand the number of people I have met (and I grew up poor, so I've dealt with a lot of white trash, a lot of ghetto people and more than my share of illegals) that are poor....excuse me "underserved"....,drug-addled, criminals, etc that did not have themselves to blame. The idea that because you've had a tough life, were beaten as a kid, were fondled by a priest, were laid off, don't speak the primary language of this nation, have psychiatric issues, don't possess a green card or because you are not white does not absolve you from being primarily responsible for your stead in life. Deal with it.

I don't judge people for doing anything more stupid than I've watched my friends do in college. People have a nasty tendancy to look at homeless people and say "he's the way he is because he's nasty/lazy/does drugs/drinks/smokes" and then they walk by upper middle class citizens doing THE EXACT SAME THINGS and somehow maintain the illusion that this is a causitive relationship.

 

[Dienekes]

I don't judge people for doing anything more stupid than I've watched my friends do in college. People have a nasty tendancy to look at homeless people and say "he's the way he is because he's nasty/lazy/does drugs/drinks/smokes" and then they walk by upper middle class citizens doing THE EXACT SAME THINGS and somehow maintain the illusion that this is a causitive relationship.

And this is a problem why? I am not disavowing the fact that non-poor people do these same things- although you seldom see a rich white crack ***** since there are higher quality drugs to be had if you have the money. Drug addicts, criminals, etc are pretty much oxygen thieves regardless of socioeconomic class. However, the more affluent group of these Emmy Award winners at least TRIES (for the most part) to contribute in a meaningful way to society. The poor....sorry, "underserved"....tend to only pay attention to anyone but themselves when they want to whine about discrimination or are looking for a handout to pay for drugs, cigarettes, booze, etc. Granted, the wealthy also tend to be insular, but I believe once you get to a certain point- namely when you no longer are suckling the teat of the government in any appreciable form- you have the option to choose to do so. What I am talking about is a matter of scale of value to society based on what you give back in exchange for what you are getting.

The reason crap like this comes up on here is just that the poor tend to die in more dramatic fashion (case in point, the death of the psych case that was the impetus for this thread) and the media (the more liberal side of it at least) then tries to use their "plight" to guilt us into "helping the people" when more or less nothing can be done in any reasonable fashion. You just do not get a good return on an investment like that.

 

[LizzyM]

Did you people make any effort to know anything this woman before you started spouting off about booze, cigarettes, druggies, crack ****** and all the rest?


http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/07/06/esmin.funeral/?iref=mpstoryview

She was an immigrant, working to send money "back home" to her children. She was a Jamaican woman, one of many in New York whose accents and smiles are unmistakable. She one of the "working poor" who found herself one paycheck away from homelessness. Her pastor sent her to the hospital when she arrived on the doorstep with aggitation and psychosis. We know the rest of the story.

Keep in mind that the first horror was that she was that she was left on the floor and neglected even after she had died -- the second was that the staff falsified records to make it appear that they had not neglected her.

 

[Depakote]

Did you people make any effort to know anything this woman befor you started spouting off about booze, cigarettes, druggies, crack ****** and all the rest?


http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/07/06/esmin.funeral/?iref=mpstoryview

She was an immigrant, working to send money "back home" to her children. She was a Jamaican woman, one of many in New York whose accents and smiles are unmistakable. She one of the "working poor" who found herself one paycheck away from homelessness. Her pastor sent her to the hospital when she arrived on the doorstep with aggitation and psychosis. We know the rest of the story.

Keep in mind that the first horror was that she was that the was left on the floor and neglected even after she had died -- the second was that the staff falsified records to make it appear that they had not neglected her.

I really don't know what to say, but thanks for posting that.

 

[Bacchus]

Did you people make any effort to know anything this woman before you started spouting off about booze, cigarettes, druggies, crack ****** and all the rest?


http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/07/06/esmin.funeral/?iref=mpstoryview

She was an immigrant, working to send money "back home" to her children. She was a Jamaican woman, one of many in New York whose accents and smiles are unmistakable. She one of the "working poor" who found herself one paycheck away from homelessness. Her pastor sent her to the hospital when she arrived on the doorstep with aggitation and psychosis. We know the rest of the story.

Keep in mind that the first horror was that she was that she was left on the floor and neglected even after she had died -- the second was that the staff falsified records to make it appear that they had not neglected her.

The discussion went on a huge tangent. My comments were not reflective of this particular woman. Howeverr, you enlighten the fact yet again that people will judge before finding out the real story.

 

[parto123]

Did you people make any effort to know anything this woman before you started spouting off about booze, cigarettes, druggies, crack ****** and all the rest?

As another poster already mentioned, the references to drugs and booze were clearly- painfully clearly- not about this specific woman. We expect better from you lizzy.

 

[Charles English]

...Give our little human brain a little credit... its not play-dough.
.

word.

... Drug addicts, criminals, etc are pretty much oxygen thieves regardless of socioeconomic class...

wow. i never thought of it that way. the bold is an important addition. i likey

 

[Maxwell Edison]

As another poster already mentioned, the references to drugs and booze were clearly- painfully clearly- not about this specific woman. We expect better from you lizzy.

Ah yes, they were not about her, just about people *like* her. You can't cast this woman into the category of "underserved" and then proceed to curse the underserved without impugning her reputation similarly.

You say she belongs to a category of people who are crackheads and alcoholics...but she's above them? Why? Certainly she doesn't share the cliche story, but which news network is hurriedly broadcasting a bildungsroman of your "average" underserved? The only reason you withhold derision in this case is because she's dead and we have the luxury of knowing her story. But if this story was told over pints at a bar rather than a news ticker, no doubt the deceased would have failed to stand out in the crowd of the underserved and instead become just another waste on the system.

 

[parto123]

You can't cast this woman into the category of "underserved" and then proceed to curse the underserved without impugning her reputation similarly.

.

Sure you can. Reasonably intelligent people can do this quite easily. I know it’s a slightly “nuanced” argument to appeal to generalities in order to make a specific point (e.g. why doctors often become jaded serving the underserved), but I think people here are smart enough to realize that common group traits are not found in all members of a group. Which is why nobody here actually accused this women of being an addict of any kind.

 

[8744]

Why are so many people on this forum so eager to crush idealism? What's the purpose of doing that?

I want your idealism to be Freedom, Liberty, personal responsibility, and a certain ability to look danger in the face and spit at it, not the sociological vaginosis that passes for idealism among typical pre-meds.

 

[45408]

But I came to a realization that we are merely a product of an extremely complex reality and ultimately it make us who we are. I could sit here and elaborate about this issue in detail, but this is not really the place for that.

I didn't know the Merovingian posted here. Cause and effect.

 

[8744]

Also, the idea that coming from a good family, meaning one with a married mother and father who did their best and sacrificed for their children, somehow equates to having lived a privilged life shows you how far we have descended as a civilization even in my lifetime. I assure you that when I was a kid back in the sixties and seventies single parenthood was the exception rather than the rule and teenage pregnancy among the middle class was so rare that girls who became pregnant were withdrawn from school for shame.

Not really apropos of anything except to comment that there is a huge difference between being a "trust fund" kid (as has been implied against some of the posters on this thread who are critical of the Holy Underserved) and coming from a solid family background.

 

[Dienekes]

The only reason you withhold derision in this case is because she's dead and we have the luxury of knowing her story.

The italicized portion should be in quotation marks to mark it as questionable.

Until the tox screen from her autopsy comes back clean of any illicit substances will I completely buy the tale being told in the media. They say this sort of sugar coated BS about any poor person- especially if they are not white- who dies. It's basically done to taint the jury for the inevitable malpractice trial. For all we know, her agitation and "psychosis" was drug induced. She comes from the land of Bob Marley for Christ's sake....drug abuse is more or less a sacrament there.

She suffered emotional problems for which she had previously been hospitalized, friends say.

So she was a psych patient. That makes the chance that she had a history of malingering rather likely. However, I think the treatment documented on the video was uncalled for and those directly responsible should pay dearly. My issue is with painting this woman as a saint when chances are she was not.

 

[bcat85]

This thread is great... the PB/Winterlights showdown was an entertaining monday night read.

 

[Maxwell Edison]

Sure you can. Reasonably intelligent people can do this quite easily. I know it’s a slightly “nuanced” argument to appeal to generalities in order to make a specific point (e.g. why doctors often become jaded serving the underserved), but I think people here are smart enough to realize that common group traits are not found in all members of a group. Which is why nobody here actually accused this women of being an addict of any kind.

Ah yes, the nuance of arguing that there is no nuance. The issue here is not whether this woman had the characteristics of the rest of her arbitrarily assigned group, or even which ones she did have. The issue is how you would conduct yourself with regards to the group she is identified with. PB at least has the conviction not to make excuses for one person or another, but you put someone in a category and then withhold judgment because arguing as much would make you appear hostile, uncaring, and god forbid, lacking nuance. You lose credibility wholesale by damning an entire group and then deigning to make a single exception.

 

[parto123]

You lose credibility wholesale by damning an entire group and then deigning to make a single exception.

Sorry, but stating prevalent group characteristics is not the same thing as damning an entire group. Most people are able to easily recognize: common trait found in group =/= every member of the group possess such trait. Well, racists have trouble recognizing this, but other than that, its quite simple for most.

 

[Pedsbro]

 

[Lukkie]

I want your idealism to be Freedom, Liberty, personal responsibility, and a certain ability to look danger in the face and spit at it, not the sociological vaginosis that passes for idealism among typical pre-meds.

id offer to bear your children but alas im a male (and according to my examcrackers biology book, men can't make baby with other men)

 

[katarzyna]

This thread is great... the PB/Winterlights showdown was an entertaining monday night read.