Pay me like a French doctor. You know you want to.

[DermViser]

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/05/pay-french-doctor.html

I can't believe the med school cost now for a private med school is $286,000 while the cost of med school in France is less than $50,000. Wonder if France has a medical doctor exchange program.

Thought this comment was interesting: "Yep. As a friend of mine from a very upper-class background once said to me "Doctors are the hired help." She was actually speaking of a mutual friend of ours who was a successful ophthalmologist; in her mind, he was a tradesman. I frequently tell my friends that I see myself as a skilled worker not unlike a plumber. The problem is that most doctors are too immersed for too long in the arduous training that it takes to become a doctor, and they don't have the social awareness or the time to notice nuances like these, or how their lives are being affected by them. Those who are savvy enough, are either going into, or planning to go into non-clinical fields."

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[TheWeeIceMan]

Yeah, but then you'd have to live in France.

 

[coffeesnob]

What's their average salary though?

 

[Arkangeloid]

Jack, I want you to draw me like one of your French girls.

 

[@JackShephard]

Jack, I want you to draw me like one of your French girls.

Will do.

 

[DermViser]

What's their average salary though?

According to the article, a PCP there makes $95,000. Not to mention, I think their hours are a lot more regulated.

 

[@JackShephard]

Yeah, but then you'd have to live in France.

America is beginning to become overrated.

The top 1% continues to grow and the middle class is beginning to suffer. In a few decades there may be better places to live if you aren't in the top 5% of earners. Doctors are... for now.

 

[@JackShephard]

According to the article, a PCP there makes $95,000. Not to mention, I think their hours are a lot more regulated.

And they have lots of benefits.

The reality is, eventually medicine will be a bad deal. Debt continues to climb and salaries are going down. Somewhere in the next decade people are going to enter medicine with 400k in debt and 150k in salary (in today's dollars).

 

[DermViser]

Yeah, but then you'd have to live in France.

I'm pretty sure it's quite nice. lol. Never been there though.

 

[Doudline]

Bah, I get the same thing as a Canadian. Can attend med school in my province for around 5k/year, books included. Except Canadian salaries are much more on par with American ones (in comparison to France).

Sometimes I wonder why I ever entertained the thought of going down south.

 

[@JackShephard]

FYI:

The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/u...ass-is-no-longer-the-worlds-richest.html?_r=0

After-tax middle-class incomes in Canada — substantially behind in 2000 — now appear to be higher than in the United States. The poor in much of Europe earn more than poor Americans.

How Canada’s middle class outpaced America’s
http://nypost.com/2014/04/27/how-canadas-middle-class-outpaced-americas/

The Luxembourg Income Study documented after-tax income in 20 countries dating back to 1980. During this time, Canada and some western countries have slowly been gaining ground, but between 2000 and 2010, the median Canadian middle-class income went from being 20% lower to matching — and then slightly exceeding — the US.

What is happening in medicine is the same thing that has happened in America.

The richest 1% are finding ways to capitalize on the workers. In medicine, this is played out through impossible EMR and billing requirements that are forcing independent docs to work for larger groups, the groups then pull the large %'s of the profits from the workers. The government is in on this too, they are taking the profits. The government is trying to rewrite the reimbursements so that you get bonuses if you perform at high levels and LOSE income if you don't... essentially, they throw a few pennies at you if you do good (just like a CEO can throw 1-3% bonuses at employees when he doubles his profits), and if you don't do great? They cut your pay by 3%, which pays for their bonuses! The real money is always made by the owners.

Welcome to the new world of medicine.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

I'm pretty sure it's quite nice. lol. Never been there though.

Haha, neither have I. I don't think they like us much, though.

 

[NontradCA]

FYI:

The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/u...ass-is-no-longer-the-worlds-richest.html?_r=0


How Canada’s middle class outpaced America’s
http://nypost.com/2014/04/27/how-canadas-middle-class-outpaced-americas/

What is happening in medicine is the same thing that has happened in America.

The richest 1% are finding ways to capitalize on the workers. In medicine, this is played out through impossible EMR and billing requirements that are forcing independent docs to work for larger groups, the groups then pull the large %'s of the profits from the workers. The government is in on this too, they are taking the profits. The government is trying to rewrite the reimbursements so that you get bonuses if you perform at high levels and LOSE income if you don't... essentially, they throw a few pennies at you if you do good (just like a CEO can throw 1-3% bonuses at employees when he doubles his profits), and if you don't do great? They cut your pay by 3%, which pays for their bonuses! The real money is always made by the owners.

Welcome to the new world of medicine.

Successful capitalism is successful.

 

[PL198]

Successful capitalism is successful.

Funny how we do worse comparatively to the rest of the world as we stray from capitalism more and more......

My plan is to make as much money as possible as soon as possible, so that if there is ever a time when physicians make 80k in America, I can say "see ya guys, fk you." It will happen some day, just not sure of when. This is what happens when physicians refuse to become politically active and are so scared about stepping on toes. Squeaky wheel gets the oil. Also this goes back to my whole, monopolies prosper when more government intervention happens. I wouldn't call the 1 % a monopoly, but they are monopolistic in many ways. The more de-regulated a market is, the easier for competitors to enter (private practice). Slap on those requirements though and it's a 1 or 2 man show. Don't really understand the direction our country is headed. This is what happens when you let emotion set policy.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

America is beginning to become overrated.

Beginning to become overrated? It's been overrated for quite some time now. Still a great place to live, but we are all witnesses to waning of America. Such is the fate of all hegemons in history.

 

[llort1337]

@DermViser fails to recognize that European doctors are paid much less than American ones and the income tax is much higher in Europe. Go talk to some Euro residents at US programs. They'll tell you they left Europe and aint goin' back because the salaries and income taxes suck. They'll also tell you Europe is more medically advanced since they don't have FDA regulation. The FDA is good for keeping out the bad, harmful practices but the good things still take 10 years to approve here while in Europe they instantly go on the market. Everything has pluses and minuses.

 

[DermViser]

@DermViser fails to recognize that European doctors are paid much less than American ones and the income tax is much higher in Europe. Go talk to some Euro residents at US programs. They'll tell you they left Europe and aint goin' back because the salaries and income taxes suck. They'll also tell you Europe is more medically advanced since they don't have FDA regulation. The FDA is good for keeping out the bad, harmful practices but the good things still take 10 years to approve here while in Europe they instantly go on the market. Everything has pluses and minuses.

Uh, where did I "fail to recognize it that European doctors are paid much less"? I just posted that a PCP in France makes $95,000. This is also for a set number of hours with benefits. Also, look at how much they pay TOTAL for medical school - almost nothing.

 

[llort1337]

Uh, where did I "fail to recognize it that European doctors are paid much less"? I just posted that a PCP in France makes $95,000. This is also for a set number of hours with benefits. Also, look at how much they pay TOTAL for medical school - almost nothing.

Right. But they are taxed like 60%. Take home income = 40k! Pretty sure AMGs with 250k in debt have it better making 200k in PCP and taking home like $120k. It'd be even more obvious to prefer the US for specialists. Their specialists don't make way more than PCP like they do here. The ppl in the best boat are the ones from overseas who stay here! No debt! Why do you think their education is basically free, though? Because taxes are so freakin high. There's no point to live in Europe if you have potentially high paying job in the US.

Why do you think all the IMGs want to stay here?

Derm isn't competitive in Europe and doesn't make way more money. Plus you're taxed way more. While in America you like the extra attention for being a dermatologist, in Europe no one cares because they say it for what it is. Easy job.

 

[@JackShephard]

Right. But they are taxed like 60%. Take home income = 40k! Pretty sure AMGs with 250k in debt have it better making 200k in PCP and taking home like $120k. It'd be even more obvious to prefer the US for specialists. Their specialists don't make way more than PCP like they do here. The ppl in the best boat are the ones from overseas who stay here! No debt! Why do you think their education is basically free, though? Because taxes are so freakin high. There's no point to live in Europe if you have potentially high paying job in the US.

Why do you think all the IMGs want to stay here?

Derm isn't competitive in Europe and doesn't make way more money. Plus you're taxed way more. While in America you like the extra attention for being a dermatologist, in Europe no one cares because they say it for what it is. Easy job.

Right now it is better to be among the rich in America (top 5% of income earners). As for the rest of the population, I'm not so sure.

Remember our government is shooting for European salaries, so we should revisit this discussion in 5-10 years. The consensus is the American physician salary is going to decline.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Right. But they are taxed like 60%. Take home income = 40k! Pretty sure AMGs with 250k in debt have it better making 200k in PCP and taking home like $120k. It'd be even more obvious to prefer the US for specialists. Their specialists don't make way more than PCP like they do here. The ppl in the best boat are the ones from overseas who stay here! No debt! Why do you think their education is basically free, though? Because taxes are so freakin high. There's no point to live in Europe if you have potentially high paying job in the US.

Why do you think all the IMGs want to stay here?

Derm isn't competitive in Europe and doesn't make way more money. Plus you're taxed way more. While in America you like the extra attention for being a dermatologist, in Europe no one cares because they say it for what it is. Easy job.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_France
Or like 40% in their highest bracket...plus they have that cool thing called progressive taxation. Kind of like what we have here in the US and most people (like you) forget about. Which means that even if 60% were their highest bracket, you still wouldn't get taxed 60% on your entire income.

Yeah I know they have their own version of SSI too and a bunch of local taxes (that we have here in the US in most states as well btw). You know, I actually wouldn't mind paying into social security and medicare though if I wasn't pretty sure both will be defunct by the time I'm 67.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Right now it is better to be among the rich in America (top 5% of income earners). As for the rest of the population, I'm not so sure.

Remember our government is shooting for European salaries, so we should revisit this discussion in 5-10 years. The consensus is the American physician salary is going to decline.

Nah, I doubt they would ever get that low. If they did, older docs would be living much better off retirement incomes, so they would just quit, and now the shortage gets even worse. The government hates us, yeah, but it's not stupid.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Some of you need to get out more. France is beautiful, tasty, and quite the chill place.

 

[circulus vitios]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_France
Or like 40% in their highest bracket...plus they have that cool thing called progressive taxation. Kind of like what we have here in the US and most people (like you) forget about. Which means that even if 60% were their highest bracket, you still wouldn't get taxed 60% on your entire income.

Yeah I know they have their own version of SSI too and a bunch of local taxes (that we have here in the US in most states as well btw). You know, I actually wouldn't mind paying into social security and medicare though if I wasn't pretty sure both will be defunct by the time I'm 67.

On the whole they still pay a lot more in taxes than we do. As an example, VAT, which is their equivalent of sales tax, is 20%.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

FYI:

The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/u...ass-is-no-longer-the-worlds-richest.html?_r=0


How Canada’s middle class outpaced America’s
http://nypost.com/2014/04/27/how-canadas-middle-class-outpaced-americas/

What is happening in medicine is the same thing that has happened in America.

The richest 1% are finding ways to capitalize on the workers. In medicine, this is played out through impossible EMR and billing requirements that are forcing independent docs to work for larger groups, the groups then pull the large %'s of the profits from the workers. The government is in on this too, they are taking the profits. The government is trying to rewrite the reimbursements so that you get bonuses if you perform at high levels and LOSE income if you don't... essentially, they throw a few pennies at you if you do good (just like a CEO can throw 1-3% bonuses at employees when he doubles his profits), and if you don't do great? They cut your pay by 3%, which pays for their bonuses! The real money is always made by the owners.

Welcome to the new world of medicine.

I guess you don't recommend that we give more tax cut to the 1-2% so they can invest more money in the economy--like hiring more workers... I guess you are NOT a Republican!

 

[DermViser]

Right. But they are taxed like 60%. Take home income = 40k! Pretty sure AMGs with 250k in debt have it better making 200k in PCP and taking home like $120k. It'd be even more obvious to prefer the US for specialists. Their specialists don't make way more than PCP like they do here. The ppl in the best boat are the ones from overseas who stay here! No debt! Why do you think their education is basically free, though? Because taxes are so freakin high. There's no point to live in Europe if you have potentially high paying job in the US.

Why do you think all the IMGs want to stay here?

Derm isn't competitive in Europe and doesn't make way more money. Plus you're taxed way more. While in America you like the extra attention for being a dermatologist, in Europe no one cares because they say it for what it is. Easy job.

Apparently you haven't added the highest tax bracket federally: 40% + state income tax.

 

[DermViser]

I guess you don't recommend that we give more tax cut to the 1-2% so they can invest more money in the economy--like hiring more workers... I guess you are NOT a Republican!

Medical Student (Accepted) as an eventual doctor, as far as the public is concerned - you are the 1%.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Medical Student (Accepted) as an eventual doctor, as far as the public is concerned - you are the 1%.

Holy ****... I guess I should change my party affiliation from 'unaffiliated to Republican' once I matriculate.
Edit: Most docs are not in the 1-2% ...

 

[Arkangeloid]

Holy ****... I guess I should change my party affiliation from 'unaffiliated to Republican' once I matriculate.
Edit: Most docs are not in the 1-2% ...

And most members of the public have the brains of a rock.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

And most members of the public have the brains of a rock.

Isn't over 33% of US citizen has a baccalaureate degree? A quick internet (Google) search will answer these questions...

 

[elektroshok]

Isn't over 33% of US citizen has a baccalaureate degree? A quick internet (Google) search will answer these questions...

Isn't dem hasing bachelors degrees betters at the grammar than dem wifout?

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Holy ****... I guess I should change my party affiliation from 'unaffiliated to Republican' once I matriculate.
Edit: Most docs are not in the 1-2% ...

He didn't say you were, he was talking about perception. Come on med student (accepted) !

 

[BestDoctorEver]

He didn't say you were, he was talking about perception. Come on med student (accepted) !

I know....

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Isn't dem hasing bachelors degrees betters at the grammar than dem wifout?

Typing from my phone...sorry for my grammar Mr English!

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Typing from my phone...sorry for my grammar, Mr. English!

I corrected a small punctuation error or two.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Isn't over 33% of US citizen has a baccalaureate degree? A quick internet (Google) search will answer these questions...

Back in college, I used to hit the beer bong harder than I ever hit the books. A college degree is no marker of intelligence...

 

[elektroshok]

I corrected a small punctuation error or two.

You beat me to it!

 

[@JackShephard]

I guess you don't recommend that we give more tax cut to the 1-2% so they can invest more money in the economy--like hiring more workers... I guess you are NOT a Republican!

I'm an independent.

And no, I don't think we need more cuts for the top 1%. I'm not sure of any common sense economist who thinks that cutting taxes for the top 1% is going to stimulate the American economy.

With that said, I support tax cuts for everyone.

America has a spending problem, not an income problem. We could save tons of money in medicine by eliminating all the malpractice spending and defensive medicine (tort reform) alongside having simpler systems for billing and reimbursement. If we gave the government twice as much tax revenue, it wouldn't change anything.

 

[llort1337]

I visited Sweden in college and they said they pay 70% of income in taxes. Don't know the breakdown but that's what the tour guide said.

If you think Europe is taxed the same as the US then you clearly have never been out of the country.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I visited Sweden in college and they said they pay 70% of income in taxes. Don't know the breakdown but that's what the tour guide said.

If you think Europe is taxed the same as the US then you clearly have never been out of the country.

Hmm, I think he might have been exaggerating because it's so great to live there, they don't want Americans moving in.

Scandinavia is so hot right now.

 

[DermViser]

Holy ****... I guess I should change my party affiliation from 'unaffiliated to Republican' once I matriculate.
Edit: Most docs are not in the 1-2% ...

I didn't say most docs are in the 1-2%, genius. I said most of the general public believes you are in the 1%, which tends to affect policy.

 

[DermViser]

He didn't say you were, he was talking about perception. Come on med student (accepted) !

Exactly.

 

[llort1337]

Hmm, I think he might have been exaggerating because it's so great to live there, they don't want Americans moving in.

Scandinavia is so hot right now.

No he wasn't. Look it up

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

No he wasn't. Look it up

I did...

I'll admit, tax codes are not my thing but wiki didn't make it seem like we're in the 70% range.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I'm an independent.

And no, I don't think we need more cuts for the top 1%. I'm not sure of any common sense economist who thinks that cutting taxes for the top 1% is going to stimulate the American economy.

With that said, I support tax cuts for everyone.

America has a spending problem, not an income problem. We could save tons of money in medicine by eliminating all the malpractice spending and defensive medicine (tort reform) alongside having simpler systems for billing and reimbursement. If we gave the government twice as much tax revenue, it wouldn't change anything.

America has an eating problem. I'm sure there is more, but that's all I see.

 

[llort1337]

I did...

I'll admit, tax codes are not my thing but wiki didn't make it seem like we're in the 70% range.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Sweden#Income_tax

That right there says 56% and there is probably some other taxes as well that isn't reported as income tax.

I know what the tour guide said. You look it up. Try harder

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Sweden#Income_tax

That right there says 56% and there is probably some other taxes as well that isn't reported as income tax.

I know what the tour guide said. You look it up. Try harder

Hahaha, ok. I'll try harder to read sweden's tax code and come up with a real number and not punt like you did for another 14% tax rate bump without any facts or an understanding of progressive tax rates. You do, however, seem to know what the tour guide said. Tour guides are generally experts on the tax code in each country, that's why they give tours for a living.

 

[TheRobin]

Too bad that the public only sees things like the NY Times article on Medicare billing and conclude that physician salaries are the reason for the country's high medical costs.

 

[amichel]

Bah, I get the same thing as a Canadian. Can attend med school in my province for around 5k/year, books included. Except Canadian salaries are much more on par with American ones (in comparison to France).

Sometimes I wonder why I ever entertained the thought of going down south.

Just to clarify though, your province (Quebec or the Maritimes, I'm guessing) has much lower tuition than the rest of the country, which is closer to 20 000 a year. Obviously that's still a lot less than down South, but lets not give anyone the wrong impression.

 

[Lucca]

Wait, you guys do know that the French government is in terrible debt, they have a workforce retention crisis, a productivity crisis, are incredibly socialistic and socially conservative, have low wealth inequality, a smaller population, and less health disparities than in the US right?

 

[llort1337]

Hahaha, ok probation. I'll try harder to read sweden's tax code and come up with a real number and not punt like you did for another 14% tax rate bump without any facts or an understanding of progressive tax rates. You do, however, seem to know what the tour guide said. Tour guides are generally experts on the tax code in each country, that's why they give tours for a living.

Pretty sure anyone with an income knows how they are being taxed. Idiot. And someone above mentioned paying a type of social security tax. Wiki mentions it but says go to other site for details.

And if you look wiki it says > 90k pays 56% tax. So most of their income is being taxed that high.

Keep talking. You're making yourself sound dumber by the moment. You provide no support for your argument and then try to make up bs against mine. Are you 12 bra?