PBL... can someone explain

[LadyxJC]

Hey guys... predent student here applying for admission in 2006. Which schools use PBL and what exactly is it? I know very little about it and was wondering what it is like...? Thanx

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[dinesh]

Problem Based learning.

May be clinical problems or not.
Basically, a paragraph of some sort with an err problem/situation.
You have to identify unknown terms in it, issues, hypothesis based on issues and generate learning objectives based on it.
It's basically teaching yourself

 

[aphistis]

Hey guys... predent student here applying for admission in 2006. Which schools use PBL and what exactly is it? I know very little about it and was wondering what it is like...? Thanx

It's a provocative, cutting-edge teaching philosophy. Traditionally, schools pay reasonable salaries to professors who present material in time-efficient lectures for the students to learn.

In PBL, the schools instead urinate piles of money away on small group tutors whose stated purpose is to do as little as possible while students are compelled to wade through pages of case study and glean the 10% of useful information from the remaining 90% of useless filler. This would be manageable, except that the students frequently haven't been introduced to the material at all, reducing the group to a half dozen blind wo/men each trying to keep the others out of the ditch.

It's a spectacular waste of time and money, and a model example of the inefficiency harvested from academic panels, without any appreciable real-world experience, making policy decisions in real-world institutions.

 

[FCIllini]

Aphistis,

From your post, would you recommend that if a person has a choice between two schools (both similarly priced) to choose the school that is NOT PBL - i.e. choose Louisville over Indiana??

I attended the 2-day interview at Indiana a couple weeks ago & while I liked the school & everyone I met, the PBL program really causes some concern for me. If I get accepted there, I'm not sure if I would want to spend $200K to basically teach myself. Now .... if IU was the only school I got into, then it's a different story.

My brother lives in Indy and has a friend who is a third year. He told me that basically he chose it because it was his state school & thus dirt cheap. From there .... he didn't have much good to say about PBL.

Your comments are appreciated.

 

[phremius]

PBL blows. if a PBL school is the only one you get into, go, if you can get into a traditional curriculum, definitely go there

 

[LadyxJC]

It's a provocative, cutting-edge teaching philosophy. Traditionally, schools pay reasonable salaries to professors who present material in time-efficient lectures for the students to learn.

In PBL, the schools instead urinate piles of money away on small group tutors whose stated purpose is to do as little as possible while students are compelled to wade through pages of case study and glean the 10% of useful information from the remaining 90% of useless filler. This would be manageable, except that the students frequently haven't been introduced to the material at all, reducing the group to a half dozen blind wo/men each trying to keep the others out of the ditch.

It's a spectacular waste of time and money, and a model example of the inefficiency harvested from academic panels, without any appreciable real-world experience, making policy decisions in real-world institutions.

Is this teaching strategy generally the way all the classes are conducted or is it a particular class? I'm still confused...

 

[aphistis]

Aphistis,

From your post, would you recommend that if a person has a choice between two schools (both similarly priced) to choose the school that is NOT PBL - i.e. choose Louisville over Indiana??

I attended the 2-day interview at Indiana a couple weeks ago & while I liked the school & everyone I met, the PBL program really causes some concern for me. If I get accepted there, I'm not sure if I would want to spend $200K to basically teach myself. Now .... if IU was the only school I got into, then it's a different story.

My brother lives in Indy and has a friend who is a third year. He told me that basically he chose it because it was his state school & thus dirt cheap. From there .... he didn't have much good to say about PBL.

Your comments are appreciated.

I was venting a little steam from a long day in clinic when I made that last post. It's not exactly an evenhanded description, and I don't want to mislead anybody.

At IUSD, PBL is a supplement to the traditional curriculum. Most of your classes are ordinary lectures just like you get at any other dental school. You spend a few hours a week in PBL. Do I think PBL improves the curriculum? Certainly not, but I don't think it really weakens it either. USC is the only all-PBL school I know, and that would make me tear my hair out, but at IUSD it's just something else you have to do.

In a nutshell: I think it's boring and an inefficient way to spend time, but you're going to find boredom & inefficiency no matter where you go to dental school; and to my mind, PBL is a small enough deal that it's barely a blip on the radar compared to the other stuff I have to juggle in school every day.

(Also, what's your friend's name? He's in my class, whoever he is.)

(Also also, I'm moving this to pre-dent where it belongs.)

 

[dinesh]

I am 'supposed' to have pbl 3 hours a week, it's supposed to be 6, but they realized most people find it a collosal waste of time.

We however usually finish within 2 hours of less and bam, I get home early


It can serve to complement work taught in class, but so far we are basically teaching ourselves and then the lecture reinforces what we learn on our OWN!

 

[harvard asda]

i would be wary to judge so quickly pbl as a waste of time. if it's not done well or the students or faculty don't play their roles appropriately, then i agree that pbl can be inefficient.
however, if you have a great faculty leader and responsible students who look up the appropriate material and can contribute to the small group discussions, then it's a great way to learn. it certainly beats the monotony of hours upon hours of lectures. also, it's entertaining to be able to teach your classmates and to be able to learn from them. it can promote teamwork and it also gets you used to the same "problem-solving" skills that you'll need when you're treating a patient, anyways. in my experience, pbl cases have been usually spread out over a couple days and not just one-day events.
also, it's important to realize that different people prefer different learning styles. if you like lectures, then go for a traditional program. if you have already experienced pbl and enjoyed it or wouldn't mind trying it, then i wouldn't recommend crossing pbl schools off your list.

 

[Comet208]

Based on my direct experience with PBL, I want to agree with harvard asda. PBL is designed to bring together what you have already learned and NOT to teach you new concepts. It makes a bridge between all you have learned. I took a PBL course while doing my masters at Wash U. It was ONLY open to grads and select seniors. you have to had completed certain courses so you could understand the scientific papers and to be able to contribute to class. The professor in charge was a researcher as the dept of surgery at Wash U Med and was doing a similar course for the med students. He really knew what he was doing.

 

[IWuvTeef]

In my experience with PBL so far, you do learn things that are not taught in lecture, just not in much detail as you would encounter in lecture.

PBL is not hard, just annoying at times (especially if you want to study for tests and you have to get your research done). What I do like about PBL is that it is a nice break from boring lectures and I get to know the classmates in my group more intimately than I otherwise would have.

 

[QCkid]

i would be wary to judge so quickly pbl as a waste of time. if it's not done well or the students or faculty don't play their roles appropriately, then i agree that pbl can be inefficient.
however, if you have a great faculty leader and responsible students who look up the appropriate material and can contribute to the small group discussions, then it's a great way to learn. it certainly beats the monotony of hours upon hours of lectures. also, it's entertaining to be able to teach your classmates and to be able to learn from them. it can promote teamwork and it also gets you used to the same "problem-solving" skills that you'll need when you're treating a patient, anyways. in my experience, pbl cases have been usually spread out over a couple days and not just one-day events.
also, it's important to realize that different people prefer different learning styles. if you like lectures, then go for a traditional program. if you have already experienced pbl and enjoyed it or wouldn't mind trying it, then i wouldn't recommend crossing pbl schools off your list.

PBL is extremely inefficient. At USC we spend an hour in presession before case and talk about the previous part of the case and what we have studied. Next we spend 2 to 3 hours on the next part of the case listing facts, developing hypothesis, and deciding on what research we need to do. We then assign everyone in the group a topic ( or maybe a few topics) and then go out and spend the next 2 to 3 hours trying to find all the info that you need. You then spend another couple hours editing all of that info down to 6 - 10 pages that you will give to your group. Now that you have just spent all of that time hardly learning anything you have just a few hours to read the stuff from your groupmates which comes to somewhere between 60 and 80 pages. Sometimes you have to do this all in one night since we also have something like 20 hours of labs and also rotations. We do this whole process 3 times a week.Which is why I spend about 80 or more hours a week in school or studying and feel like I'm hardly learning anything. You try to read a 10 page paper on malaria in 20 minutes and see how much you remember the next day.

 

[SC-Z]

PBL is extremely inefficient. At USC we spend an hour in presession before case and talk about the previous part of the case and what we have studied. Next we spend 2 to 3 hours on the next part of the case listing facts, developing hypothesis, and deciding on what research we need to do. We then assign everyone in the group a topic ( or maybe a few topics) and then go out and spend the next 2 to 3 hours trying to find all the info that you need. You then spend another couple hours editing all of that info down to 6 - 10 pages that you will give to your group. Now that you have just spent all of that time hardly learning anything you have just a few hours to read the stuff from your groupmates which comes to somewhere between 60 and 80 pages. Sometimes you have to do this all in one night since we also have something like 20 hours of labs and also rotations. We do this whole process 3 times a week.Which is why I spend about 80 or more hours a week in school or studying and feel like I'm hardly learning anything. You try to read a 10 page paper on malaria in 20 minutes and see how much you remember the next day.

I would hardly say PBL is inefficient. PBL's pedagogy is based on the fact that students are "motivated" to learn and gain a knowledge of what is neccessary to resolve the issues from each "case". I assume you are fairly early in your PBL experience by the fact you are stating it takes 3 hours to complete each session... Most can be resovled w/in an hour. As pertaining to the information digested the night prior, I believe you are only suppose to grasp the idea of each of these "learning needs", that is why there are repetatory issues addressed.

As a USC student also, I believe PBL is extremely benificial to us in the overall aspect. I would clearly have chosen to attend a PBL-based school than a tradition school, and I believe our NBDE average shows the improvement of PBL over our traditional structure.

 

[SC-Z]

I have also had many contacts to PBL alumnis that are either current GPs, or current specialty residents... and many of them feel PBL not only adequately prepares them their practice or, residency training, but they also felt PBL helped them encompass certain aspects in their dentistry training that were not sufficiently covered by traditional programs as it compares to their peers.

 

[UConn_SDM]

I have also had many contacts to PBL alumnis that are either current GPs, or current specialty residents... and many of them feel PBL not only adequately prepares them their practice or, residency training, but they also felt PBL helped them encompass certain aspects in their dentistry training that were not sufficiently covered by traditional programs as it compares to their peers.

PBL didn't become really informative until 3rd and 4th year. As soon as I got into clinic and had clinical questions (and access to outside dentists precepting PBL) it was very helpful. First and second year I didn't appreciate it as all I wanted to do was study. But unlike some schools PBL at UConn makes up a very small portion of an otherwise traditional curriculum. We only had a meeting every few weeks - anymore may have been too much (at least the way it's done there ay UConn).

 

[mochafreak]

OK, here's some PBL venting (and I don't give a crap who knows who I am...)

You know what really sucks about PBL...being told that you are too quiet for PBL. Hmmm, I wasn't too quiet to be one of the best emts at the ambulance service I worked at in Denver, wasn't too quiet to get full class participation marks in english...but, apparently I'm just too darn quiet for PBL. Yeah, right. I love being discriminated against because of my basic personality. Nothing like being told that you'll be an excellent dentist, and you'd be able to pass the dental school curriculum, and your hand skills are fine, but you're just too quiet for PBL (based on a 20 minute interview, of course). Same thing used to come up when I was an engineer...I'd get excellent marks on my performance reviews for work that inherently required tons of verbal communication and then get blasted for being quiet (not bullsh*tting with everyone before meetings). Any other frustrated introverts out there?...and, oh yeah, quiet doesn't equal shy...trust me. In any case, people who don't have talk show host personalities be forewarned...PBL school's probably don't want you...regardless of anything else.

 

[Comet208]

OK, here's some PBL venting (and I don't give a crap who knows who I am...)

You know what really sucks about PBL...being told that you are too quiet for PBL. Hmmm, I wasn't too quiet to be one of the best emts at the ambulance service I worked at in Denver, wasn't too quiet to get full class participation marks in english...but, apparently I'm just too darn quiet for PBL. Yeah, right. I love being discriminated against because of my basic personality. Nothing like being told that you'll be an excellent dentist, and you'd be able to pass the dental school curriculum, and your hand skills are fine, but you're just too quiet for PBL (based on a 20 minute interview, of course). Same thing used to come up when I was an engineer...I'd get excellent marks on my performance reviews for work that inherently required tons of verbal communication and then get blasted for being quiet (not bullsh*tting with everyone before meetings). Any other frustrated introverts out there?...and, oh yeah, quiet doesn't equal shy...trust me. In any case, people who don't have talk show host personalities be forewarned...PBL school's probably don't want you...regardless of anything else.

Its sad to hear that Mocha. i thought your inteview at blank school went well. you still never know... best of luck to you.

 

[briansle]

OK, here's some PBL venting (and I don't give a crap who knows who I am...)

You know what really sucks about PBL...being told that you are too quiet for PBL. Hmmm, I wasn't too quiet to be one of the best emts at the ambulance service I worked at in Denver, wasn't too quiet to get full class participation marks in english...but, apparently I'm just too darn quiet for PBL. Yeah, right. I love being discriminated against because of my basic personality. Nothing like being told that you'll be an excellent dentist, and you'd be able to pass the dental school curriculum, and your hand skills are fine, but you're just too quiet for PBL (based on a 20 minute interview, of course). Same thing used to come up when I was an engineer...I'd get excellent marks on my performance reviews for work that inherently required tons of verbal communication and then get blasted for being quiet (not bullsh*tting with everyone before meetings). Any other frustrated introverts out there?...and, oh yeah, quiet doesn't equal shy...trust me. In any case, people who don't have talk show host personalities be forewarned...PBL school's probably don't want you...regardless of anything else.

I think you're being too hard on yourself. My understanding of PBL is that you must be able to work well with other people. Quiet people usually are great group members since they know how to listen. The worst groups are ones with just a bunch of loud people. I think your interviewer realizes this, so don't be discouraged.

 

[mochafreak]

I think you're being too hard on yourself. My understanding of PBL is that you must be able to work well with other people. Quiet people usually are great group members since they know how to listen. The worst groups are ones with just a bunch of loud people. I think your interviewer realizes this, so don't be discouraged.

Unfortunately, I am discouraged over reality...I know that my interview was below average and the reason listed was too quiet/introverted for PBL, and lack of exposure to dentistry (it seems that AADSAS still hasn't sent the packet with my shadowing hours and that entire section is still blank). So, it seems that the interviewers don't share your opinion.

 

[Comet208]

Unfortunately, I am discouraged over reality...I know that my interview was below average and the reason listed was too quiet/introverted for PBL, and lack of exposure to dentistry (it seems that AADSAS still hasn't sent the packet with my shadowing hours and that entire section is still blank). So, it seems that the interviewers don't share your opinion.

Wait, did you try explaining why that section is blank?

 

[IWuvTeef]

Don't worry Mocha. Trust me, PBL is all about bull-sh*tting. You just gotta jump through the hoops and talk. A good way to avoid talking is to be the scribe on the board. Plus you don't have to say all that much. Just spew out a few sentances on each page of the case.

Oh and a tip for those of you coming on NOV 4-5. Bring up the "ethical" issues in the case. The tutors eat that stuff up for breakfast.

 

[mochafreak]

Wait, did you try explaining why that section is blank?

Yeah, I did...that won't prevent me from being accepted...I still need to have it fixed though.

 

[mochafreak]

Don't worry Mocha. Trust me, PBL is all about bull-sh*tting. You just gotta jump through the hoops and talk. A good way to avoid talking is to be the scribe on the board. Plus you don't have to say all that much. Just spew out a few sentances on each page of the case.

Oh and a tip for those of you coming on NOV 4-5. Bring up the "ethical" issues in the case. The tutors eat that stuff up for breakfast.

Thanks, for the tips...
I don't have a problem talking in group learning situations or talking in general. Just because of my personality certain people seem to believe I will refuse to speak. If I minded meaningful communication (or even bullsh*tting when it's warranted) I sure wouldn't have become an EMT. However, I don't believe it's necessary to constantly talk as some people do, I actually like to listen to what people say. The point is that when something needs to be said, I'll say it, no problem, but some people in this country think that introverts are handicapped. Just because I don't dance on the table with the lampshade on my head doesn't mean I'm mute. I've actually wanted to move to another country before because of this issue...haven't felt that way in awhile. But, now I'm thinking Finland sounds nice. They're quiet and yet they have a model, efficient society...hmmm, I wonder how they do it without ever speaking.

 

[LadyxJC]

uh oh... I consider myself to be an introvert (to some degree) also. Do PBL schools really pay attention to how much you speak during your interview day and use that against you if you don't say a lot?

 

[mochafreak]

uh oh... I consider myself to be an introvert (to some degree) also. Do PBL schools really pay attention to how much you speak during your interview day and use that against you if you don't say a lot?

This was my experience, hopefully yours will be different...but, I would try to have a very animated discussion with your interviewers. I also spoke quite a bit throughout the day, it seems that regardless of other indicators (jobs, work experience, etc.) they base everything off the interview. If you don't have any experience with panel interviews I would recommend rehearsing them. The panel format threw me off and it cost me.

 

[dat_student]

This was my experience, hopefully yours will be different...but, I would try to have a very animated discussion with your interviewers. I also spoke quite a bit throughout the day, it seems that regardless of other indicators (jobs, work experience, etc.) they base everything off the interview. If you don't have any experience with panel interviews I would recommend rehearsing them. The panel format threw me off and it cost me.

#1) I don't see why any dental school wouldn't want to accept mochafreak

#2) How do you know that it cost you? Did they reject you right after your interview?

#3) 21/23/20 + 4.0 for post-bac (60 units) = excellent. I think approx. 65 [+/- std] applicants did better than TS = 23 (if not less). Obviously you have the intellectual capability to become a dentist.

 

[food4thots]

that really blows.. i totally understand your situation. i get really quiet when i'm out of my comfort zone, esp in big group setting. i've learn to be a little more relaxed... it really takes some practice. now people laugh at me when i tell them i'm an introvert..

 

[LadyxJC]

This was my experience, hopefully yours will be different...but, I would try to have a very animated discussion with your interviewers. I also spoke quite a bit throughout the day, it seems that regardless of other indicators (jobs, work experience, etc.) they base everything off the interview. If you don't have any experience with panel interviews I would recommend rehearsing them. The panel format threw me off and it cost me.

What is the panel format? I never had a panel interview before...

 

[mochafreak]

#1) I don't see why any dental school wouldn't want to accept mochafreak

#2) How do you know that it cost you? Did they reject you right after your interview?

#3) 21/23/20 + 4.0 for post-bac (60 units) = excellent. I think approx. 65 [+/- std] applicants did better than TS = 23 (if not less). Obviously you have the intellectual capability to become a dentist.

1). Awww, thx man
2). No rejection yet, but a well-informed, very respectable birdy summarized my interview for me
3). Yes, there was absolutely no doubt I can pass the curriculum, have the hand skills, etc...but merely that I may be too quiet for PBL

Gee, I wish I knew how to do the multiple reply to different replies thing...

Food4thots: Yeah, some people are surprised when I say I'm an introvert...none of my patients have every figured it out

LadyxJC: A panel interview is where multiple people interview you at once (around a table). Therefore, you have multiple people asking you questions, listening and taking notes at the same time. They were nice and it wasn't meant to be stressfull but I think everyone can understand that they are more stressfull than a regular one-on-one and that caused me to seem shy, etc.

Completely my fault, let's face it...lack of preparation will get you nowhere. I failed to completely prepare...and I paid. Unfortunately, part of the preparation for introverts is to NOT act like yourself, even if your personality has never affected your patient skills, verbal communication, class participation, etc. Don't think that your interviewers will draw logical conclusions like "well, she's quiet but she asked excellent questions, so obviously she could contribute to PBL. Not to mention she's an EMT, so obviously she can communicate with patients". None of that matters, be as outgoing as you possibly can. Personally, I'm working on a kick @ss Vanna White imitation.

 

[LadyxJC]

Woah... multiple interviewers asking questions and taking notes? Which schools conduct panel interviews?!

 

[dinesh]

Damnit just got 3.6/5 on my first pbl

 

[mochafreak]

Woah... multiple interviewers asking questions and taking notes? Which schools conduct panel interviews?!

If you look at the interview feedback section of this site the schools interview formats are listed.

 

[dat_student]

I can't find the interview feedback section

 

[mochafreak]

I can't find the interview feedback section

Go to the main SDN page and look at the left side, it's under dental school interview feedback.

 

[dat_student]

Go to the main SDN page and look at the left side, it's under dental school interview feedback.

Thanks