Pharmacy Job Market/Outlook

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CanPharm said:
Maybe we can look at the situation in a different light. More pharmacists will help create larger lobbying power and further develop the role of the pharmacist. With dispensing jobs no longer being the easy jobs, we'll have pharmacists enhancing their competencies through residencies and developing niches for pharmacy practice.
This article really portrays the ideal pharmacy practice (IMO)
http://www.theannals.com/cgi/content/full/40/7/1409
It maybe that we need to deal with the shortage before we have enough manpower to move the profession forward?
Please don't flame me for being to optimistic/naive :p
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The thing is we have not seen this in JD/MBA profession. What we have seen from them is a majority of graduates working in 20-40k jobs and a lot of them unemployed with crushing student loans.
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WVUPharm2007 said:
In the US, degree doesn't matter. Canadian pharmacists made about as much as US pharmacists for about a year a while back when the currencies were worth roughly the same...now that the Greenback is worth more than the Loonie again, they are back to being paid less in absolute money.
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Its such a good life over there though, I am probably willing to sacrifice that to live there.

*Besides the whole Canadian thing
 
bigpharmD said:
actually it would prob significantly increase our responsibilities just like the aformentioned nurse...
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I think increasing usage of NP and PA/midlevels may be a good things for the profession because more advices and interventions from pharmacists is needed. So should PharmDs support DNP & NP expansion? ... May be NPs may indirectly boost the demand of pharmacist..
 
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RNtoPharmD said:
I think increasing usage of NP and PA/midlevels may be a good things for the profession because more advices and interventions from pharmacists is needed. So should PharmDs support DNP & NP expansion? ... May be NPs may indirectly boost the demand of pharmacist..
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The expansion of NP's will probably increase the number of scripts filled, thus increasing the need of pharmacists. Also like you said, nurses don't know the most about meds so they would need clinical advice. However, the problem with increasing the amount of NP's means we depend on them.

I honestly think the profession should look to make common the role of the pharmacist practiotioner. A pharmacist with one or two more years of experience in differential diagnosis and prescribing. They would have to pass a test. The pharmacist practitioner would be allowed to diagnosis minor to moderate illnesses and prescribe.
 
Just keep in mind that although we relate most to our colleagues in MD, we have recieved tremendous support from the nursing lobbies in many pro pharmacy bills compared to non from the AMA.
 
Pharmacy Kid said:
The expansion of NP's will probably increase the number of scripts filled, thus increasing the need of pharmacists. Also like you said, nurses don't know the most about meds so they would need clinical advice. However, the problem with increasing the amount of NP's means we depend on them.

I honestly think the profession should look to make common the role of the pharmacist practiotioner. A pharmacist with one or two more years of experience in differential diagnosis and prescribing. They would have to pass a test. The pharmacist practitioner would be allowed to diagnosis minor to moderate illnesses and prescribe.
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Yes. Maybe it will benefit our profession to support the expansion of NPs/DNP rather than bashing them. :) I honestly think we have a long way to go before we can become a primary practitioner until we incoperate the staff NPs & PAs learn in pharmacy school. We need to change our curriculum.

According to the articles, "He added that the vast majority of his referrals come from prescribing nurse practitioners as opposed to psychiatrists. Given that nurse practitioners’ experience and training “set them up differently [regarding] their depth of knowledge with respect to drug therapy,” he said, “this sort of resource fits well."

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/06/27/pharmacy
 
RNtoPharmD said:
Yes. Maybe it will benefit our profession to support the expansion of NPs/DNP rather than bashing them. :) I honestly think we have a long way to go before we can become a primary practitioner until we incoperate the staff NPs & PAs learn in pharmacy school. We need to change our curriculum.

According to the articles, "He added that the vast majority of his referrals come from prescribing nurse practitioners as opposed to psychiatrists. Given that nurse practitioners’ experience and training “set them up differently [regarding] their depth of knowledge with respect to drug therapy,” he said, “this sort of resource fits well."

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/06/27/pharmacy
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I am really trying hard not to email that ****** psychiatrist quoted in that article. This pharmD has done a residency, fellowship, and is board certified. He is more than qualified to adjust, discuss, and recommend changes in psych meds. Once again an MD who wants the whole pie..
 
bigpharmD said:
I am really trying hard not to email that ****** psychiatrist quoted in that article. This pharmD has done a residency, fellowship, and is board certified. He is more than qualified to adjust, discuss, and recommend changes in psych meds. Once again an MD who wants the whole pie..
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You should send him an angry resident-email with proper citations and all. CC a copy to me.
 
Wow...this surprises me:

0620POLL.jpg



-------------------

Writing is on the wall, folks...we're getting gov't subsidized insurance for all.

Think about that...40+ million potential new customers...fears of a surplus may be over very soon. Now what will be interesting is what the AMA does to try to avoid getting hosed. This entire thing will be total balls for them, methinks. Using the history of the medical universe as an example...more gov't being the payer= less reimbursement for the provider. People that bill the system themselves will get less cash...which isn't the vast majority of pharmacists...most of us punch a time clock...and there will be a struggle over us to cover all the new business...in theory. Independent pharmacies will get squeezed even more...ouch...

Hmmm....either way, I predict a giant ass headache for those in retail. Thank God I chose hospital. This impending cluster**** will make the medicare d rollout look like a picnic whenever it comes time to start billing...
 
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I think people are tired of paying ever-increasing costs for ever-decreasing coverage. I think a system that puts its focus on NOT PAYING CLAIMS rather than on making sure its customers are healthy and well-cared for is fundamentally flawed. Something is going to change, and I don't see how pharmacists have anything to lose in the deal.
 
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we'll see....healthcare reform is the big wild card in the surplus vs. shortage debate. if something doesn't come out of DC within the next year, it will probably be another 10-15 years before political/social conditions are ripe for comprehensive reform.
 
Hooray!!

...I'm actually happier about the possibility of universal healthcare than my job security.
 
Read the fine print at the bottom.

"Volunteered Response(s)"
"Based on TELEPHONE POLLS"
895 participants
 
AStudentDoctor said:
Read the fine print at the bottom.

"Volunteered Response(s)"
"Based on TELEPHONE POLLS"
895 participants
Click to expand...

I don't see anything wrong with the methodology or sample size, and why are you making an issue over the fact that <3% of one question came from a volunteered response? Have you ever taken basic statistics?

If anything, telephone polls will skew against healthcare reform as younger, more liberal minded people can be excluded from polls, but I'm not sure this was a landline only sample.
 
This is a monumental task for the Obama administration. Even if it does pass, it'll probably take at least 10 years for everything to settle down. I hope everything goes well, and our health system becomes more reliable in the long run! It's definitely a necessary step to take. We can't have this expensive health system go on any longer! I'm willing to take a paycut as long as I'm hired :D
 
confettiflyer said:
I don't see anything wrong with the methodology or sample size, and why are you making an issue over the fact that <3% of one question came from a volunteered response? Have you ever taken basic statistics?

If anything, telephone polls will skew against healthcare reform as younger, more liberal minded people can be excluded from polls, but I'm not sure this was a landline only sample.
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Last time I took a telephone questionnaire I felt hurried to supply an answer....maybe some of the participants felt the same way?
 
powertoold said:
This is a monumental task for the Obama administration. Even if it does pass, it'll probably take at least 10 years for everything to settle down. I hope everything goes well, and our health system becomes more reliable in the long run! It's definitely a necessary step to take. We can't have this expensive health system go on any longer! I'm willing to take a paycut as long as I'm hired :D
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Paycut by how much? Half? I'm ok with a paycut of no more than $10-15 k. We all have huge loans to pay off and I'm not the type who is exactly willing to sacrifice my own comfort for the benefit of everyone else. Hey, least I'm honest and don't claim to be a hero lol. :laugh:
 
Maybe they'll implement a system like in France and actually reward health care providers for doing a good job. I remember in Sicko (yes, it was Michael Moore, I know.) they interviewed the American doctor living in France. He said he got a bonus at the end of year based on how many people he got to quit smoking, how effective his cholesterol management was going, etc.

Imagine if we could get a bonus based on proper patient management and counsel. Then, if companies could access that data when it came time to fill a position in a hospital or retail, a candidate may be chosen based on their track record. I don't think a little competition in the Pharmacy field would be a bad thing. Some of the ones who have half-assed their way to a PharmD in recent years would have to get with it to compete for the better jobs.

Obviously, I'm talking about quality of care, not how much you increase the bottom line by.

I'm with you though WVU, I'm very surprised at the responses (even if I'm a little wary of the segment used). After volunteer at the Remore Area Medical Clinic (http://www.ramusa.org/) for a few years now it's hard for me not to somewhat support some reform though.

I'm no economist so I can't begin to assume what this will do in relation to salaries for health care providers. I do know, however, that health care everywhere is about to get a hell of a lot more hectic. In my mind... more responsibility and higher volume should equate to higher pay. Then again, if it equates to needing more staff, they may have to lower salaries to account for the needed Pharmacists to handle it all. I think we'll see.
 
There has been a lot of talk about the shortage of Rphs and how that has disappeared over the last 6-12 months. In So. Cal there is in fact a surplus. So far people have correctly linked this to retired Rphs coming out of retirement, and part time women Rph's switching to full time as the recession brings the pain.

But I don't think people are aware the extent to which foreign pharmacists have had on this job market. I know the recruiter for a chain very well and she informed me that there are a fixed number of visas granted every year. In the past companies like Microsoft,Google, biotech firms, etc used to use up a lot of visa slots sponsoring their own people to work here. That left a limited supply for pharmacists.

But since the recession, those companies arent hiring anymore. This has freed up plenty of visa spots for everything else. Nurses, pharmacists, anyone who wants in but couldn't make it in the past due to competition from other fields is getting in now. The intern at my store went to a company sponsored study session for the board examination. This was for prospective Rph's from western states. Out of 130 or so people only about 25 or so went to US schools. The rest were from overseas. My friend the recruiter tells me that every store in my area will have 2 foreign grads placed there.

This is why our market is so tight right now. These foreign grads recieved a sub-par degree over seas and now they are flooding the market. My intern has over 180k in debt and he told me that most of the people he spoke to had no debt. This will not stop anytime soon, since Obama is in the tank with big business. It will only get worse. So why go to school in the US?
 
WVU, I wouldn't get so happy yet. Universal healthcare would probably help in some ways, but keep in mind that this country is broke. To have the government in charge of pharmacy reimbursement (and thus your pay too) is dangerous since we are flat broke. If Saudi Arabia had a universal health care plan and I was a Saudi Rph then I would be happy. But when it comes time to slice a few billion here and a few billion there it will be us they go after first. Remember who is in charge. Insurance companies, then Drug Companies, then Doctors, then the patients, then us.

All the while people will get their name brand Kapidex instead of Prilosec, and their Diovan instead of Lisinopril.

As far as increased volume goes the wave of the furture is central filling. It is here. Cost Co has implemented it without too many hiccups, and that will take over a lot of the slack.

Welcome to the USSA.
 
I'm not saying you're wrong, because frankly, I haven't researched the foreign pharmacist issue at all but you certainly sound like you're fear mongering here. Got any links to the actual numbers of foreign grad pharmacists entering the U.S. workforce over the recent years?
 
This will not stop anytime soon, since Obama is in the tank with big business. It will only get worse. So why go to school in the US?
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You know, I read your post with full consideration. And as true as portions of it may be, you lost any credibility by making this a political discussion. Good job!
 
MrBlue said:
WVU, I wouldn't get so happy yet. Universal healthcare would probably help in some ways, but keep in mind that this country is broke. To have the government in charge of pharmacy reimbursement (and thus your pay too) is dangerous since we are flat broke. If Saudi Arabia had a universal health care plan and I was a Saudi Rph then I would be happy. But when it comes time to slice a few billion here and a few billion there it will be us they go after first. Remember who is in charge. Insurance companies, then Drug Companies, then Doctors, then the patients, then us.

All the while people will get their name brand Kapidex instead of Prilosec, and their Diovan instead of Lisinopril.

As far as increased volume goes the wave of the furture is central filling. It is here. Cost Co has implemented it without too many hiccups, and that will take over a lot of the slack.

Welcome to the USSA.
Click to expand...

Thankfully I don't work retail.
 
Mr. "Blue" indeed are you? A little too blue for me.
I love it when the economy goes bad and people blame foreigners. Classic. What next? Will you say that the reason California is going under is "illegals"?
Facists such as Hitler and mussolini did this all the time. Fear Mongering to the max.



MrBlue said:
There has been a lot of talk about the shortage of Rphs and how that has disappeared over the last 6-12 months. In So. Cal there is in fact a surplus. So far people have correctly linked this to retired Rphs coming out of retirement, and part time women Rph's switching to full time as the recession brings the pain.

But I don't think people are aware the extent to which foreign pharmacists have had on this job market. I know the recruiter for a chain very well and she informed me that there are a fixed number of visas granted every year. In the past companies like Microsoft,Google, biotech firms, etc used to use up a lot of visa slots sponsoring their own people to work here. That left a limited supply for pharmacists.

But since the recession, those companies arent hiring anymore. This has freed up plenty of visa spots for everything else. Nurses, pharmacists, anyone who wants in but couldn't make it in the past due to competition from other fields is getting in now. The intern at my store went to a company sponsored study session for the board examination. This was for prospective Rph's from western states. Out of 130 or so people only about 25 or so went to US schools. The rest were from overseas. My friend the recruiter tells me that every store in my area will have 2 foreign grads placed there.

This is why our market is so tight right now. These foreign grads recieved a sub-par degree over seas and now they are flooding the market. My intern has over 180k in debt and he told me that most of the people he spoke to had no debt. This will not stop anytime soon, since Obama is in the tank with big business. It will only get worse. So why go to school in the US?
Click to expand...
 
MrBlue said:
There has been a lot of talk about the shortage of Rphs and how that has disappeared over the last 6-12 months. In So. Cal there is in fact a surplus. So far people have correctly linked this to retired Rphs coming out of retirement, and part time women Rph's switching to full time as the recession brings the pain.

But I don't think people are aware the extent to which foreign pharmacists have had on this job market. I know the recruiter for a chain very well and she informed me that there are a fixed number of visas granted every year. In the past companies like Microsoft,Google, biotech firms, etc used to use up a lot of visa slots sponsoring their own people to work here. That left a limited supply for pharmacists.

But since the recession, those companies arent hiring anymore. This has freed up plenty of visa spots for everything else. Nurses, pharmacists, anyone who wants in but couldn't make it in the past due to competition from other fields is getting in now. The intern at my store went to a company sponsored study session for the board examination. This was for prospective Rph's from western states. Out of 130 or so people only about 25 or so went to US schools. The rest were from overseas. My friend the recruiter tells me that every store in my area will have 2 foreign grads placed there.

This is why our market is so tight right now. These foreign grads recieved a sub-par degree over seas and now they are flooding the market. My intern has over 180k in debt and he told me that most of the people he spoke to had no debt. This will not stop anytime soon, since Obama is in the tank with big business. It will only get worse. So why go to school in the US?
Click to expand...

Because otherwise you have to go abroad, get a degree in a country where you can't (legally) work during school, then get work experience there, then try to get a US licensure based on things you learned for another country. Or you could just do 4 years in the states and then get a job. Maybe not the job you want, with a bonus, or in the same city you go to school in, but you'll get a job.
 
banbidil said:
mr. "blue" indeed are you? A little too blue for me.
I love it when the economy goes bad and people blame foreigners. Classic. What next? Will you say that the reason california is going under is "illegals"?
Facists such as hitler and mussolini did this all the time. Fear mongering to the max.
Click to expand...



blame canada!!!!!
 
WVU: Good for you! I hope you mean clinical, although hospital is good too. The good ol neighborhood pharmacist is commoditized.
 
Come on now! Enough with the Hitler comparisons. I am a minority myself, but I choose to call a spade a spade. This isn't lets blame the foreigner. This is corporations screwing our profession over. They are flooding the market with unqualified people. I don't blame people from other countries for coming here at all. I respect them. If I were in their shoes I would do the same damn thing.

But I live in So. Cal. And the flood of pharmacists here is sickening. I have a co-worker who is a great pharmacist, but he lost his job because of an argument with corporate. Now that he is looking around for another job he has come to realize that there are no other jobs here. He will have to displace his entire family and move. Think of that when Ca gets fully saturated and pharmacists flood your town.

Maybe if you live in po dunk Iowa you are oblivious to what is going on now. But I see it clearly. Lets just make it fair. If we are letting people come here with 3rd world degrees and no college debt, then lets open it up for everyone. Lets make a Rph degree available by community college and shorten it to a 4 year program. At least then the flood of pharmacists will all be domestic and we won't be drowning in college debt. Where is the fairness in this?
 
It's not Obama's fault, it is Congress's fault, as they approve the H1-B visa numbers every year. I used to work for the lobbying arm of a corporation that used to pay off, err .... I mean, "ask with much gratitude" members of Congress to continue and expand the program.

For those of you old enough to remember the dot-com bust, remember how many unemployed software engineers there were? I do. There were a LOT. Despite this, my old company and its despicable counterparts lobbied for more and more H1-B visas for engineers. They made up every excuse in the book regarding training, most of it pure baloney. Why? Because American engineers were getting paid a ton of money after the dot-com bubble; H1-B engineers not only would work for cheaper wages, but also were basically indentured servants, as their stay in the US was contingent upon employer sponsorship.

So it's not Obama necessarily who is in the pocket of big business - but I can tell you with 100% certainty from personal experience, it is the corporations with a vested interest that donate a ton of money to Congressional members to continue and expand the H1-B program.
 
MrBlue said:
Come on now! Enough with the Hitler comparisons. I am a minority myself, but I choose to call a spade a spade. This isn't lets blame the foreigner. This is corporations screwing our profession over. They are flooding the market with unqualified people. I don't blame people from other countries for coming here at all. I respect them. If I were in their shoes I would do the same damn thing.

But I live in So. Cal. And the flood of pharmacists here is sickening. I have a co-worker who is a great pharmacist, but he lost his job because of an argument with corporate. Now that he is looking around for another job he has come to realize that there are no other jobs here. He will have to displace his entire family and move. Think of that when Ca gets fully saturated and pharmacists flood your town.

Maybe if you live in po dunk Iowa you are oblivious to what is going on now. But I see it clearly. Lets just make it fair. If we are letting people come here with 3rd world degrees and no college debt, then lets open it up for everyone. Lets make a Rph degree available by community college and shorten it to a 4 year program. At least then the flood of pharmacists will all be domestic and we won't be drowning in college debt. Where is the fairness in this?
Click to expand...

I don't want to offend anyone, but the foreign student who goes through all that process to emigrate to the United States is probably twice as smart, three times as hard-working, and infinitely more grateful to have a job than you or me. Why wouldn't a company want to hire someone like that, especially when they'll gladly work for a "pithy" $80K a year?
 
confettiflyer said:
I don't see anything wrong with the methodology or sample size, and why are you making an issue over the fact that <3% of one question came from a volunteered response? Have you ever taken basic statistics?

If anything, telephone polls will skew against healthcare reform as younger, more liberal minded people can be excluded from polls, but I'm not sure this was a landline only sample.
Click to expand...

This poll is fine for its purpose but we really can't say much about its methodology since not much of it is disclosed. Still, for our informal non-academic discourse, this poll is fine....
 
In Canada there is universal health care but no universal coverage for prescription medications.
 
charfdorn said:
I don't want to offend anyone, but the foreign student who goes through all that process to emigrate to the United States is probably twice as smart, three times as hard-working, and infinitely more grateful to have a job than you or me. Why wouldn't a company want to hire someone like that, especially when they'll gladly work for a "pithy" $80K a year?
Click to expand...

This. :eek:
 
The reason for the shortage is a lacking of cowbell.

We need MOAR COWBELL
 
Can I blame my student loans on immigrants ? or how about lets blame them for the economy.
 
previous posts have made a good point


foreigners are very hardworking and with little complaints

very humble people that work for well under average pay



i honestly would hire them...of course they frustrate others
due to their language barrier but from my experience and
i quote "my experience" they seldom retaliate and often
avoid altercations...i like that
 
Foreign pharmacists are not the "main" reason for the surplus of pharmacists in Southern California. It's a part of the reason.

The reasons are

  • Increase in pharmacist influx due to increase in class size and new schools.
  • Slow down in opening of new pharmacies.
  • Increased utilization of automation in prescription processing.
  • Desirability of Southern California living.
Don't blame the foreigners and coporations.
 
charfdorn said:
I don't want to offend anyone, but the foreign student who goes through all that process to emigrate to the United States is probably twice as smart, three times as hard-working, and infinitely more grateful to have a job than you or me. Why wouldn't a company want to hire someone like that, especially when they'll gladly work for a "pithy" $80K a year?
Click to expand...
yeah, they are 3 times are smart, but some are arrogant, and their english isnt that great. However it is improving 3 folds every passing 6 months. It is really scary; but I dont care.
 
I know 4 or 5 students in my gen chem course that were pre-pharm. Now they have all switched to nursing. :cool:
 
Mr.Blue,
I am a foreign graduate, and you just can't tell me, that foreign graduates are unqualified. Hey, it's a fair game. NABP set the rules for foreign graduates, and we follow(ed) them, and once our internship is done, we take NAPLEX and MPJE and pass just like the students who go to school in U.S.

It is not our fault if corporations hire us. Our skill level is comparable to students who go to school here. Communication is not a problem, personally I have taken a few communication classes in the local community college and made sure that there is NO flaw in my speaking ability with patients/customers, probably I have an accent, but am working on it too with an accent coach. Instead of trying to blame others, try to compete and may the best man/woman win.

On a side note You should read the book "The World is Flat" and am sure it will open your eyes.
 
I love this argument. And by love it, I mean its stupid and baseless: "Its all those Indian pharmacists' fault!!"

There are a total of 10,700 foriegn educated pharmacists in the US.

The year before that: 10,400

The year before that: 10,100

The year before that: 9,700

This number has steadily increased (and is estimated to continue to do so) by ~600/year.*

The point is that there have always been a bunch of foreign pharmacists in the US workforce, and the 300 or so pharmacists that entered the US market last year didn't magically saturate the market overnight.

Bare with me here: Statistically speaking, 300 extra pharmacists last year means each state got got a whopping 6 additional pharmacists in 2008. Noooooo!!!! Quick! Close down the borders!! Get the immigrants out! Build that giant fence around the US! Who's going to build it though?

*from the December 2008 HRSA report, you can get it online
 
cactus124 said:
On a side note You should read the book "The World is Flat" and am sure it will open your eyes.
Click to expand...


Gawd....that was an awful book to read... it didn't open my eyes...it actually closed my eyes quickly and I started snoring...
 
I don't think anyone is blaming the immigrants - at least, I hope not. It is not their fault they are being used in such a manner. Congress however gets a lot of contributions from corporate associations that profit handsomely from maximizing H1-Bs. This makes victims of both US-born as well as the basically indentured immigrants, both of which are now forced to compete for depressed wages. The only winners are the companies, Congress and good old-fashioned greed.

(Side note: And you can't always find these donations when you look them up - a lot of them are "soft donations." Example: my old company used to sponsor dinners for various Congresspeople, to the tune of $500-$1000 per plate for individuals choosing to attend. Thus the Congressperson would earn thousands in individual contributions thanks to us, but none of it *technically* came from us so it was left off the books).

The system that encourages these visas is incredibly corrupt and is NOT looking out for us as workers, that is all I am saying.
 
95% go into retail, because retail corporations are the ones that sponsor the H1-B (Visa to legally work in the U.S.). I find few in Hospitals too.
 
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