PHD/DVM Information

[hoping2be11]

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Hi :] I am pretty new to this site and I am not applying until this fall, but I was wondering if any other users are currently or planning on trying to do a DVM/PHD program. I LOVE research and LOVE veterinary medicine so I feel like trying to combine these passions would be awesome. Anyone know what the best course of action is to make yourself a competitive applicant? Should I do a masters beforehand? Any insight you be great!

 

[GSDgirl]

I applied to the CSU DVM/PhD combined program and was rejected. I'm still on the DVM alternate list, but plan to set up a file review. I'll let you know what they say...

I applied with 2 bachelor's degree, four independent research projects (two of which I applied for and was awarded funding...one is under review for publication.) Not to imply that I thought I was a shoe-in, because I certainly was not, but I thought I was a pretty strong applicant. I definitely don't want to scare you away from the program (after-all, its what I wanted to do!), but it is far more competitive than a DVM program. I would recommend contacting the school(s) you anticipate applying to, and to discuss your application directly before you submit it.

I'm sure you will get some great advice on SDN, I've only been a member a short time, and I know that there are a LOT of people with research experience on here... (nyanko, I'm sure you have better input...)

There are also opportunities to participate in research in DVM (alone)programs... that's what I plan to do this fall.

 

[HandD42]

I think the competitivness really depends on the program. I too applied to two combined DVM/PhD programs and was rejected from both. I have pretty high stats (not crazy or anything) and have worked in pharmacology research for almost 4 years now.

Some programs you apply now, ie when you enter the DVM program, others wait until you are a 2 year until you apply and then start the following year (ie MN).

I think it is best to start exploring schools you are interested in, browse faculty web pages and then start contacting admissions departments, most of them have their own DVM/PhD contact person to bug.

 

[GellaBella]

Like others have said, gaining admittance for a phd/dvm (or phd/md etc) is extremely competitive mostly because it is a great way to combine research and medicine and get a free ride to school. It is really a great deal if you can get in. That being said, to be competitive your application has to really wow the adcoms. If you are just coming put of undergrad your gpa will have to be high...much higher than the avg dvm applicant. You will also need substantial research experience. If you can gain your own funding as someone above me did (via NIH etc) that is great. If you can get published that is also excellent. I don't think there is any "one way" to do it except that you must be stellar.

I don't think you need a ms BUT if you do not get in it may be beneficial to do a thesis based masters if you need more research experience.

I think caninerepro got accepted for a phd/dvm program so maybe he can chime in

I'm currently finishing up my phd and starting vet school in the fall

 

[No Imagination]

and get a free ride to school

Do they typically pay for the DVM portion of the program as well? Don't quote me on this, but I think that Miss. State only funds your PhD years.

 

[slimbean]

I've actually considered DVM/Ph.D ,since like you, I am really interested in both. Like everyone has said, it is a very competitive but I do think you should look into it and consider applying.
On the other hand, I do think in a way that a DVM/ PhD is not critical to reach your career goals if you want to do veterinary research because if that is what you want to do, you can with no doubt do it regardless of whether you end up getting a DVM, a Ph. D, or both. If you end up just doing a Ph.D you can do vet research, although I do know for a fact that you will need to work with a vet since grants require it in order for a P.h D to get money for Vet research. On the other hand if you have a DVM you can for sure do research although in that case it may be harder to get into academia and you would have to most likely head into the industry or government side of reaerch...so overall my point is that although a DVM/PhD gives you the most freedom and independence, in the end, if what you want to do is Veterinary research, the you can do it no matter what direction you take, you just would have to think more about specific goal and what your interests are.
I decided on just DVM because my interests have grown toward private practice, but research is still not completely erased from my mind, so the best route for me is to focus on my DVM.

 

[hoping2be11]

Thanks for the good advice. I do work in two labs but I will not be published for the work. I am going to Costa Rica to run an independent Research project in the spring and I am going to Bodega Bay in the fall to do another research project (sadly that can't really go on an app). I am doing some internet research and it looks like you pretty much can get a masters funded in the sciences. I am currently a marine biology major and wildlife has been my focus in college and I would love it to be a focus in vet school. If I were to do a masters should it be a strictly animal science major?

 

[No Imagination]

Honestly, from what I know now, I would go right into a DVM program, finish it in 4 years, then if I still wanted a PhD, I would apply for it as a DVM. Would allow you to work as a veterinary (bringing in decent money in the process), and if I decided not to get a PhD, or that I didn't actually need one to do what I wanted to do, just not get it.

I would not recommend a joint DVM/PhD program to anyone unless the whole program 6-8 years, was paid for by the university.

On a side note, I would rather get board specialized after my DVM, rather then a PhD, as boarded vets will make more then a DVM/PhD and pretty much allow for the same type of research.

my 2 cents

 

[No Imagination]

(sadly that can't really go on an app). I am doing some internet research

Sure it can, I put independent research that was never published (went to Ecuador and collected poison dart frogs) on my app, and just the fact that I was in Ecuador came up positively during my interview.

Just squeeze the trip between more legitimate research projects (like at school), label it as independent research. TRY and get an abstract out of it for some lame (or not lame) conference (even a local university one), really not that hard to do, and list it!

 

[HandD42]

Do they typically pay for the DVM portion of the program as well? Don't quote me on this, but I think that Miss. State only funds your PhD years.

It really depends on the program. Schools that fund all 4 years of the DVM and all years of the PhD are pretty rare.
Some fund just the PhD, some fund PhD + 2 years of the DVM, and some allow you to gain residency during your PhD so you can pay (lowered) in state tuition for you DVM but none of it is covered. 100% depends on the school.

To be honest I was surprised by how competitive the dual programs are (but I probably shouldn't of been). Always an option to do the DVM completely first then continue onto the PhD. Benefits of that are you may have a more direct focus for when you do pursue your research and there are specific NIH training grants for DVMs to pursue their PhD. This may be essential if you want to do research in a poorly funded area.

 

[nyanko]

It really depends on the program. Schools that fund all 4 years of the DVM and all years of the PhD are pretty rare.
Some fund just the PhD, some fund PhD + 2 years of the DVM, and some allow you to gain residency during your PhD so you can pay (lowered) in state tuition for you DVM but none of it is covered. 100% depends on the school.

UC Davis, UPenn and Cornell all fund you during the DVM/VMD 😉 portion to varying degrees (Cornell's caveat is that you must pay the DVM tuition and fees but they will reimburse you upon successful completion of both).

 

[CanadianGolden]

Honestly, from what I know now, I would go right into a DVM program, finish it in 4 years, then if I still wanted a PhD, I would apply for it as a DVM. Would allow you to work as a veterinary (bringing in decent money in the process), and if I decided not to get a PhD, or that I didn't actually need one to do what I wanted to do, just not get it.

I don't think it would really be possible to work as a vet while getting your PhD. Maybe one day a week, but a PhD is a full time job. Or maybe I misread and you meant working as a vet in case you decided you didn't want to get a PhD?

On a side note, I would rather get board specialized after my DVM, rather then a PhD, as boarded vets will make more then a DVM/PhD and pretty much allow for the same type of research.

I don't think this is necessarily true. While you could go into the same field, obviously, you would lack the research-based training that the PhD provides, and I expect this would make you less likely to achieve full professorship/tenure at a university if that was where you were doing research. Additionally, the type of research and salary vary widely. I'm pretty sure that a tenured professor would make more than an assistant professor or staff researcher, even if the staff researcher was boarded and the professor wasn't.

It also depends on your specialty. Some people may choose to get a PhD and also do a residency. I don't know that a boarded radiologist working in research would be paid more than a DVM/PhD, but a boarded oncologist doing oncology research could. However, I think the PhD is a highly valued degree in most research fields.

If anyone wants to PM me with questions, feel free.

 

[No Imagination]

I don't think it would really be possible to work as a vet while getting your PhD. Maybe one day a week, but a PhD is a full time job. Or maybe I misread and you meant working as a vet in case you decided you didn't want to get a PhD?

I know several vets (@ MSU) who work part time while working towards their PhD. Also, doing a PhD is not nearly as work intensive (time wise) as Vet School. Of course, every project is different, as is every school/person, but just speaking from what I know now.

I don't think this is necessarily true. While you could go into the same field, obviously, you would lack the research-based training that the PhD provides, and I expect this would make you less likely to achieve full professorship/tenure at a university if that was where you were doing research. Additionally, the type of research and salary vary widely. I'm pretty sure that a tenured professor would make more than an assistant professor or staff researcher, even if the staff researcher was boarded and the professor wasn't.

As you eluded to, there are too many variables to contend with.

But for ****s and giggles, look up what your professors (DVM and Ph D's make), assuming you are in a Public US Vet school, all that information is available on line. I was shocked at how little some of these vets make in an academic setting.

Not saying I wouldn't consider going Academia after a long and fiscally prosperous career, I wouldn't consider it at this junctions.

Finally, Tenure is not at all it is cracked up to be, and many universities seem to be moving, or getting ready to move, away from the very idea.

P.S. While the salaries of most proffessors are freely available, any money they make from grants usually are not, but at most institutions, you can only pay yourself 40% of your base salary through grants - least that is my understanding.

 

[sumstorm]

No Imagination, my understanding matches yours, and here there are plenty of DVM only professors/researchers, including tenured...though, like you mentioned, tenure is becoming a thing of the past. Many of ours operate private consulting businesses on the side as well.

 

[HandD42]

I don't think it would really be possible to work as a vet while getting your PhD. Maybe one day a week, but a PhD is a full time job. Or maybe I misread and you meant working as a vet in case you decided you didn't want to get a PhD?

I thought this as well until I met a DVM pursuing a PhD, she worked 20ish hours a week at an emergency clinic (nights and weekends). Apparently made pretty good money and used her experience to advocate the benefits of getting the DVM first versus doing them concurrently. I suppose this would change in years 3-4 of the PhD when you are expected to be in your lab full time +.

 

[Caninerepro]

I am responding here because a couple people clued me in on this topic. I see a few others who have far better practical input than I, have already posted. NoImagination , Nyanko and Gella are also far more into research as their core than I am.
I was accepted to a combined program, but turned it down in the end to just do a simple DVM. Yeah doing so probably shocked a lot of people. 😳 As for compensation, I think that depends on each individual person, and how bad the school wants them. I was offered a pretty darn good package at a pretty cool school, especially on the PhD side, which is where they really wanted me to be truthful. I got the feeling the DVM was a bone they were simply throwing me. If you are going to do a combined program out of the blocks you really need to be absolutely sure that is what you want to do, and also need to have pretty good street cred within the research end of things, whatever that means in your chosen field.
In the end I decided against it because number one I was not in my heart totally dedicated to living in a windowless room for the rest of my life, and also because the projects I was being offered were not truly exactly where I wanted to be going in my field. I had also just spent a few years in the middle of the very cutthroat research world, and was pretty burned out by all the cat fighting. That said, I can always change my mind and go back in if I decide I really want to. That is the nice thing with a DVM, you can go just about anywhere with that degree. I would rather spend the time getting boarded if I decide after 2013 I am not done with school yet. A PhD is much more limiting, to my interests. That said, I am laser focused on a very narrow and obscure branch of veterinary medicine, one without a lot of great commercial promise, and truth be told not all that popular socially within the industry. Were I doing the same thing in human medicine it would be a different deal entirely, and that was where I could see myself ending up.
Not sure if that answered anyone's questions, but shows what went through my mind as far as the decision making process. My best friend from high school is a PhD biochemist involved with yeast antibody genetics, and he both loves what he does, and has a pretty darn good career future in private industry. The gal who ended up taking my seat in the combined program loves it, and is actually complaining more about being OUT of the lab for so long in order to get her DVM. More power to them. 👍
Good luck peoples. Were it me, I would say get your DVM, then decide if a PhD is where you want to take it. But that is just my 2 cents worth.

 

[CanadianGolden]

I know several vets (@ MSU) who work part time while working towards their PhD. Also, doing a PhD is not nearly as work intensive (time wise) as Vet School. Of course, every project is different, as is every school/person, but just speaking from what I know now.

Somewhat true--but to do a PhD you will end up working more than 40 hours a week. I think having an additional job during your PhD depends on whether you want to commit to 60-80 hours weeks on a regular basis. Also, some programs may prohibit you from holding an outside job.

But for ****s and giggles, look up what your professors (DVM and Ph D's make), assuming you are in a Public US Vet school, all that information is available on line. I was shocked at how little some of these vets make in an academic setting.

No, I agree, and that's what I'm saying. A boarded DVM is not necessarily going to make more than a DVM PhD.

Finally, Tenure is not at all it is cracked up to be, and many universities seem to be moving, or getting ready to move, away from the very idea.

I think this is an opinion; for some the job security that comes with tenure is extremely valuable.

 

[sumstorm]

Somewhat true--but to do a PhD you will end up working more than 40 hours a week. I think having an additional job during your PhD depends on whether you want to commit to 60-80 hours weeks on a regular basis. Also, some programs may prohibit you from holding an outside job.

No, I agree, and that's what I'm saying. A boarded DVM is not necessarily going to make more than a DVM PhD.

I think this is an opinion; for some the job security that comes with tenure is extremely valuable.

Wait, there is an option of working less than 60-80 hour weeks? Dang, I am in the wrong place! 😀

It depends on the DVM, the PhD, and the board specialty. too many complicating factors for generalizations.

and the value of tenure doesn't matter if more and more schools lack incentive (and take added risk, ie lawsuts/violence/etc) to offer tenure. if it doesn't exist where most jobs exist, value is null. I am not a huge fan of tenure anyways.

 

[CanadianGolden]

Wait, there is an option of working less than 60-80 hour weeks? Dang, I am in the wrong place! 😀

No of course not. 🙂 I'm just pointing out that to finish a PhD in a timely manner you typically need to work more than 40 hours a week--so someone may or may not be willing to also work as a DVM during that time.

 

[CanadianGolden]

I thought this as well until I met a DVM pursuing a PhD, she worked 20ish hours a week at an emergency clinic (nights and weekends). Apparently made pretty good money and used her experience to advocate the benefits of getting the DVM first versus doing them concurrently. I suppose this would change in years 3-4 of the PhD when you are expected to be in your lab full time +.

I missed this part--are you referring to year 1 of the PhD where you are doing rotations? Most PhD programs expect a student to be in lab full time as soon as their thesis lab is chosen (unless they are in class). Thesis labs are determined in year 2 or earlier as far as I know.

 

[nyanko]

I missed this part--are you referring to year 1 of the PhD where you are doing rotations? Most PhD programs expect a student to be in lab full time as soon as their thesis lab is chosen (unless they are in class). Thesis labs are determined in year 2 or earlier as far as I know.

It really really depends on the program and the lab from what I've seen. Even as a MS student I am expected to be in the lab full time since I am finished with coursework and not TAing. And to my prof, full time means from 9 am until 7-8 pm.

A lot of places though if a PhD student still has coursework to get done they get a good amount of leniency in the lab.

 

[GellaBella]

Well, for me the amount of time I spend in the lab is up to me which I like cause I can tailor my day around my needs. What this typically means is that I usually get to lab at about 9:30 or 10am. Sometimes earlier. Sometimes later. It is not atypical for me to work an 11 or 12 hr day, although on avg i'd say I work 10 hrs/day almost 7 days a week (gotta take a day off here and there for sanity purposes). I also know lots of phd students who probably work 35-40 hours per week....no comment on the research they produced. I'm not really supposed to have an outside job according to my stipend but my boss would let me if I couldn't make ends meet but my stipend is decent so no probs there.

Personally I like that schools may be moving away from tenureship. I know too many faculty who sit in offices bringing in big bucks and who no longer even try to run a lab/get funding.

...I think I had something else to say but I'm up early (to get to lab!) and my brain has not woken up yet

 

[No Imagination]

Personally I like that schools may be moving away from tenureship. I know too many faculty who sit in offices bringing in big bucks and who no longer even try to run a lab/get funding.

I am so split on this issue, while I agree with what you say here, without the job security associated with tenure, what is the incentive to go into academia vs. industry, where salaries are usually higher, and you have more rights over you IP (I know some people will disagree with that last point, but private sector can easily be more accommodating (these days) than universities in terms of IP)

 

[GellaBella]

I am so split on this issue, while I agree with what you say here, without the job security associated with tenure, what is the incentive to go into academia vs. industry, where salaries are usually higher, and you have more rights over you IP (I know some people will disagree with that last point, but private sector can easily be more accommodating (these days) than universities in terms of IP)

Yeah I understand. i think that I am just a little bitter about it all because there just seem to be so many people at my university that get tenure and just stop. I hear from so many students in other depts that there are only like 2 labs functioning and able to take students out of 12-15 labs per dept (maybe more).

I think ideally I would like to see something like tenure, that also includes evaluations every 5 or 6 years or so that include things like: 1) are you mentoring students? 2) have you applied for/been granted funding 3) are you publishing?

People are granted tenureship cause they have been successful, so i don't see any reason why they should necessarily STOP being successful at least on some level. These people who just sit in their office all day collecting tenure and haven't had a lab open in 15 years really bug me.

 

[BlacKAT33]

Yeah I understand. i think that I am just a little bitter about it all because there just seem to be so many people at my university that get tenure and just stop. I hear from so many students in other depts that there are only like 2 labs functioning and able to take students out of 12-15 labs per dept (maybe more).

I think ideally I would like to see something like tenure, that also includes evaluations every 5 or 6 years or so that include things like: 1) are you mentoring students? 2) have you applied for/been granted funding 3) are you publishing?

People are granted tenureship cause they have been successful, so i don't see any reason why they should necessarily STOP being successful at least on some level. These people who just sit in their office all day collecting tenure and haven't had a lab open in 15 years really bug me.

I see this a lot too. Slacking. Taking vacation allll the time. basically not doing their job let alone doing as good of a job as they did before the tenure. then again, i see some amazing PIs who still do a fantastic job. its a sticky area. I think the evaluations would be a good thing. Even at prestigious institutions, there are the people who get stuck on studying the SAME thing because 30 yrs ago they found something amazing. All of the PIs where i work know who these people are and complain about them all the time because they havent published anything significant for a long time and they are so narrowminded and unwilling to look into new things. its sad, what a WASTE of money! especialy when it could go to more important research

 

[No Imagination]

Another reason I think a lot of tenured professors get lazy is the ridiculous overhead and IP restrictions that universities put on professors.

Let's say a professor gets a grant for $1 million from the NIH to do a project, and to fund a graduate (PhD student).

- 40% automatically goes to the school for "Overhead"
- If the PhD student is making 40K/year, it typically costs the PI 60K/year (more overhead to the school, * 5 years for the student)

So, that 1 million $ grant = 300K to do any actual work (400K for the school, 300K for the PhD student (of which the student only sees 200k over 5 years).

Then you have to consider the fact that the university has regulations on how you spend that money. Want to outsource something? To bad, go through the school, even though it will cost you 2-3x as much and take 3 months to get the results back. Want to buy a new MS, too bad, that money is listed under 'consumables', and therefore can't use for equiptment. Want to make your discovery 'free to all', too bad, school automatically gets IP rights and decides who it sells those rights to (if at all). Just try getting some specific molecular primers, some universities will not even let you buy vectors or primers because of potential loss of IP rights that don't even exist!

Why would anyone bother going through all that only to see it go to the University who will keep the lion's share of any major breakthrough. If my PI found the cure for cancer tomorrow, under his current contract, he would be entitled to <2% of residuals (Ok, for the cure for cancer that would still be billions, but you get my drift).

It's all about the $$ for universities, they don't care about the quality of the research or # of publications.

I know a professor who have no graduate students, publishes 4-6 papers A YEAR, but is still an Associate Prof. because they REFUSE to write a grant (presumably for the reasons I cited above).

Academia has all the worst attributes of industry, without any of the perks. Tenure is the only perk left, and that's going out the window.

Perhaps if Univ. gave tenured prof. some actual incentive (and I don't think evaluations are the answer) to actually do good research, they would.

I hate the very notion of academia with a passion - Ivory tower my ass