Philly Programs

[SeaBorn]

Hi everyone, longtime lurker here. Sorry to heap another program question onto the pile, but here goes...

I'm committed to doing residency in Philadelphia. I didn't have a bad interview at any of the programs in the area. And, I think I have a grasp of some of the main differences between the programs - i.e. trauma experience, research, 3-yr/4-yr, etc.

However, I'm struggling with a few comments I've heard from students and residents regarding two of the programs - Jeff and Drexel. To be blunt, people have told me to "avoid" these programs.

Two questions:

1) Can anyone shed some light on any of this?

2) Are these concerns held nationally?

Thanks everyone. Just another student trying to figure all of this out.

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[Akail]

Will most likely end up in Philly as well and would appreciate some input on this if anyone has something to share.

 

[han14tra]

I'm familiar with Jefferson.

Pros
- Center city is the best area of Philadelphia to live.
- They cover the Phillies and Eagles games. You have to do 7, but there are opportunities to do more and you will get paid like an attending.
- Great faculty.
- Excellent Sim lab since Jefferson Medical College is there.
- Established program. Started in 1983.
- If I remember correctly, I think there are some international opportunities (may want to double check that).
- Rich Levitan is there, who is an airway god.
- ED looks pretty nice.

Cons
- Not a big variety of trauma. Penetrating trauma goes to Temple and Einstein. Most high-speed MVAs go to Drexel. Peds trauma all goes to CHOP. Jefferson gets a lot of spinal cord trauma transfers (because they are a Spinal Cord Research Center and they have Jefferson Hospital for Neuroscience).
- Multiple sites that aren't real close together including Camden NJ, Wilmington DE, Philadelphia PA. I think you do Trauma away from Jefferson (be thankful. You would want to commit suicide on Trauma at Jeff. When I was a med student on Trauma, I averaged about 110hr/week).
- Mostly 12 hour shifts.

 

[name?]

Went to Drexel for medical school. Seems like a good program with strong history. Hahnemann is a weird hospital on the edge of center city and north Philly and, at least a few years ago, wasn't as busy as some of the other places. They spend way too much ICU time in my opinion, which was why it was lower on my list. Still, I wouldn't overlook it.

 

[mtot]

Went to Drexel for medical school. Seems like a good program with strong history. Hahnemann is a weird hospital on the edge of center city and north Philly and, at least a few years ago, wasn't as busy as some of the other places. They spend way too much ICU time in my opinion, which was why it was lower on my list. Still, I wouldn't overlook it.

We ran the ICU, i.e., there were only EM residents in the unit. It was the best training I rec'd during residency at Drexel. You do tons of procedures and resuscitations since you're not splitting them with the other services. The head intensivist runs the show like the gestapo. I hated her guts and I cringe any time I think about the crap she gave us but I left that residency, with all those hours in the unit, totally confident that I could handle anything the ED could throw at me. Four years out of residency and I stand on those words to this day. Drexel is a demanding program that equips you to do anything you want to in emergency medicine.

Jefferson; well, don't know much about the specifics of the program but lots of anecdotal evidence that it's not a great place to train. During my last year of training I heard they didn't fill all of their spots. Several of my colleagues in residency were Jeff Med graduates and said the training was weak at best, confirmed by an ED attending that currently works there.

 

[SeaBorn]

Started this thread awhile back... Here's what I ended up doing:

Temple>Penn>Einstein>Jeff>Drexel

Temple bc: research is available but not pushed, trauma experience, great pathology, great faculty and residents, few off-service (one medicine floor month), Philly is a nice city with a relatively cheap COL.

 

[Hooper]

hey what made you choose jeff over drexel? I had it the other way around. Personally I liked all the ICU time at Drexel and the fact that its only EM residents there. Heard that at Jeff you have to really fight other departments on admissions and its kind of "kush." Agree that Temple is probably the best in Philly. I didn't get an interview at Penn and I ranked Einstein last because I don't particularly want to do a 4 year program, even though I was really impressed by them on interview day.

 

[SeaBorn]

Tough call between Jeff and Drexel. Went back and forth. I think what clinched it was the faculty. I got along better with the leadership (Chair, PD, aPD) at Jeff.

 

[medicsb]

Kind of unfortunate that Drexel's program isn't one of the most competitive, especially considering that it is the 2nd oldest in the country. Anyhow, I've had experience with almost every ED in Philly and intimate experience with 3 of the ED attached to residencies. They all seem to have some downsides and I don't think I'd put Drexel or Jefferson at the bottom.

As someone who will be applying to most programs in the Philadelphia area, I'd be really interested in the criticisms of all programs. Being told to "avoid" a certain program without a good explanation is useless advice. In regards to the acuity of patients or "weak" training, this seems likely to be something that is site dependent. Considering that rotations are often done at different hospitals, I'm not sure exactly how to interpret such criticism - for example, am I really to believe that Lourdes, Methodist, Paoli, AND TJUH are all "weak"?

 

[woeiru]

Kind of unfortunate that Drexel's program isn't one of the most competitive, especially considering that it is the 2nd oldest in the country.

Three of the programs I interviewed at claimed to be the second oldest in the country. One of them qualified that MCP was actually the second oldest, but because of merger they somehow lost that distinction and now this program was actually the second oldest existing program.

Honestly, it really doesn't matter to me. I just find it amusing that there are at least 4 programs out there claiming to be the second oldest...

 

[SeaBorn]

Medicsb,

I echo your frustration - hence, the inspiration for this thread. Throughout this process, a few folks have PM'd me with their thoughts on Drexel and TJU. Some negative, some positive. Ultimately, the EM community of Philly seems divided when it comes to the reputation of these programs. For better or worse.

In the end, "gut feeling" was the impetus behind my ranking of these programs. Sorry, I know that's not helpful, as my gut tends to be hairy, protuberant, and +/- the detritus of my most recent kill while yours may be all washboard like. Thus, my advice is this: When you apply next year, go with your gut and see where you come out. Best of luck!

 

[spelledout]

Three of the programs I interviewed at claimed to be the second oldest in the country. One of them qualified that MCP was actually the second oldest, but because of merger they somehow lost that distinction and now this program was actually the second oldest existing program.

Honestly, it really doesn't matter to me. I just find it amusing that there are at least 4 programs out there claiming to be the second oldest...

http://www.emra.org/content.aspx?id=267

 

[medicsb]

Three of the programs I interviewed at claimed to be the second oldest in the country. One of them qualified that MCP was actually the second oldest, but because of merger they somehow lost that distinction and now this program was actually the second oldest existing program.

Honestly, it really doesn't matter to me. I just find it amusing that there are at least 4 programs out there claiming to be the second oldest...

Yeah, I've noticed that a few different programs claim "second". If you look in old issues of JACEP, the residency listings noted the year of establishment, but used the year of first PGY-2 accepted as the year the program began, thus you will see MCP (now Drexel) listed as 1972. MCP actually began as an "Acute Care" Internship, which was approved by the AMA, and took 4 PGY-1s. Only one of the interns, Dr. Pam Bensen, went on to spend a second year (and maybe third - I'm not sure) with MCP. Another one of the interns later did an EM fellowship and then training in toxicology - Dr. Jonathan Wasserberger. Residencies, at the time, did not require any formal approval. The Cinci program was technically a residency, and was actually a family medicine residency that focused on emergency medicine.

I believe the only other residency that started in 1971 was LAC+USC (apparently they lagged behind MCP by a few months). Hennepin County Medical Center cites 1971 as its beginning, but it didn't actually begin to train residents until a couple years later.

I'd be curious as to who else claims to be "second"... the 1972 residencies were:
Evanston Hospital (Now part University of Chicago EM Residency)
Louisville General Hospital (Univ. of Louisville School of Med.)
Billing’s Hospital - University of Chicago Medical School

Anyhow, sorry about the diversion... I have found the history of EM to be rather fascinating.