Physical Chemistry

[PhantomfanMD]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

For those of you who have taken it, how was it? Besides using the word "tough," how would you describe the class? What kind of concepts were taught and how much of a curve was placed on your class? Thanks.

 

[MullieWins]

It isn't bad if you're a math/physics major!🙂

 

[LifetimeDoc]

 

[PhantomfanMD]

It isn't bad if you're a math/physics major!🙂

ok...so by your logic if I change my major to math/physics then I will be fine in it? 😉 Or are you saying I need to be good in those subjects? Those are two different things. Just being a smart!@#

 

[thinkorswim]

I'm in biochem, and it wasn't bad. You'll just be hugging your calculus textbook for the first few weeks until you refamiliarize yourself with derivates and integration.

I think there was a pretty big curve put on our final, because I couldn't answer almost half of it and came out with an A-.

 

[NoktorNoL]

Its not bad if you have a teacher that knows how to simplify the concepts to the point that you can understand it (that may or may not take much simplification). The concepts are definitely very hard, but nothing ridiculous. Plus, you learn what REALLY happens in chemical reactions....I've only taken one semester (all quantum mechanics) though so I dunno about the thermodynamics part...

 

[nintendo]

I did really well in Pchem. All I did was read the text and do problems along the way, then I did homework problems over and over. I was a math minor (which doesn't really mean anything at my school), but I found that even though you do a lot of calc, there a few integrals and concepts that just repeat throughout. That's looking back now though, 2 years later. Good luck!

 

[MullieWins]

ok...so by your logic if I change my major to math/physics then I will be fine in it? 😉 Or are you saying I need to be good in those subjects? Those are two different things. Just being a smart!@#

What I meant to say was being good at the two subjects will help, but also being one of those majors will help even more. A lot of the material from PChem is covered in quantum mechanics courses, and the multi-variable calculus is nothing after partial differential equations.

 

[ShyRem]

I was a chem/math major, and I found Pchem to be a LOT easier than biochem (and easier than real analysis, and modern algebra...). If you are very strong in your math skills you'll find it to be pretty straight forward and relatively simple.

For math courses, I found linear algebra helpful, your calcs (of course), and complex variables. Modern algebra would have been helpful for the symmetry groups (had I only known!), but graph theory helped a bit. Really, besides the calc series, complex variable calculus was my saving grace for Pchem and made things MUCH MUCH easier to deal with.

 

[Medicineman20]

Rather get my wisdom teeth pulled 😡

Quantum did not make any sense to me

 

[future_dr_house]

I'm generally pretty good in math which was the only reason I did ok in pchem. Understanding the concepts involved is not that bad but very time-consuming. I took 14 hours of other classes along with it so generally I spent less time reading for content and understanding and more time memorizing derivations and when to substitute one equation for another. Not advisable but it worked out ok.

 

[MinnyGophers]

👍

 

[lunaire]

omg, I'm taking P-chem and 17 credits of other classes, and doing the interviews... Plus I'm taking the class with a really hot 'friend' 😉 😍

Any more secret weapon/ trick to handle P-chem?

 

[xucardsfan08]

The only good thing that comes from this course is that you will destroy the PS section of the MCAT (if you take through CalcIII, and PChem, u should).

Everything about this course is hard. So many symbols, equations and applications. You can't just memorize a bunch of formulas and plug-n-chug. You have to have the higher understanding of what is going on to be able to apply those formulas. It is nice, however, to know where all the formulas come from. There isn't any equation that is "here it is - memorize it - just know that it works". You know how every equation is derived.

I think it is funny to go down the alphabet and realize that each letter has a p-chem meaning.

Tips:
1) Master multivariable calculus
2) Read the chapter/section once through to get an idea of what is going on.
3) Reread the section, this time more will be absorbed and make some sense.
4) Go over the equations and rationalize the derivation of each one and where the equation comes from.
5) Memorize every equation.

 

[EmbellisMaVie]

Its not bad if you have a teacher that knows how to simplify the concepts to the point that you can understand it (that may or may not take much simplification). The concepts are definitely very hard, but nothing ridiculous. Plus, you learn what REALLY happens in chemical reactions....I've only taken one semester (all quantum mechanics) though so I dunno about the thermodynamics part...

NoktorNoL, who did you have for quantum? I had Pate and he was AMAZING. I had Lehmann for thermo, though, and let's just say it was a less-than-stellar experience... I think the average on one of our exams last year was about 20%. (That being said, the final grade had a ridiculous curve, and most people ended up doing fine.)

To the OP, it helps to remember some calculus, but it's more important that you're able to understand what's going on when you use certain equations, you'll be alright. I took multivar and linear algebra in high school, and I didn't remember a thing of it for pchem. Maybe it would have helped, but it wasn't crucial. A lot of people prefer pchem to biochem, actually, because it requires less memorization and more understanding of abstract concepts. Some people just work better that way.

A lot of it also depends on the professor. I think pchem is really only difficult if a professor doesn't know how to teach it to the students in a simplified manner first and work up from there. Both of the professors I mentioned above at my school are absolutely brilliant and probably at the top of their field, but only one of them knows how to communicate with students at all. I think most pchem professors know it's not generally a favorite class for most students and they try to make it at least mildly intelligible. That, or provide it with a generous curve.

Personally, I loved my quantum semester. It's really mind-blowing how much hand-waving we do in organic chemistry. My favorite pchem moment was when I was talking to my professor and he was explaining how p orbitals are actually donut-shaped and not dumbbell-shaped as we're always taught. He said, "I bet it's one of those things that some of my colleagues probably don't even remember." And I responded, jokingly, "Yes, well, it's probably not the sort of things that keeps people up at night." To which he replied, with a straight face and a slight note of frustration, "It keeps me up at night."

 

[NoktorNoL]

NoktorNoL, who did you have for quantum? I had Pate and he was AMAZING. I had Lehmann for thermo, though, and let's just say it was a less-than-stellar experience... I think the average on one of our exams last year was about 20%. (That being said, the final grade had a ridiculous curve, and most people ended up doing fine.)

To the OP, it helps to remember some calculus, but it's more important that you're able to understand what's going on when you use certain equations, you'll be alright. I took multivar and linear algebra in high school, and I didn't remember a thing of it for pchem. Maybe it would have helped, but it wasn't crucial. A lot of people prefer pchem to biochem, actually, because it requires less memorization and more understanding of abstract concepts. Some people just work better that way.

A lot of it also depends on the professor. I think pchem is really only difficult if a professor doesn't know how to teach it to the students in a simplified manner first and work up from there. Both of the professors I mentioned above at my school are absolutely brilliant and probably at the top of their field, but only one of them knows how to communicate with students at all. I think most pchem professors know it's not generally a favorite class for most students and they try to make it at least mildly intelligible. That, or provide it with a generous curve.

Personally, I loved my quantum semester. It's really mind-blowing how much hand-waving we do in organic chemistry. My favorite pchem moment was when I was talking to my professor and he was explaining how p orbitals are actually donut-shaped and not dumbbell-shaped as we're always taught. He said, "I bet it's one of those things that some of my colleagues probably don't even remember." And I responded, jokingly, "Yes, well, it's probably not the sort of things that keeps people up at night." To which he replied, with a straight face and a slight note of frustration, "It keeps me up at night."

I'm actually taking it right now - I have Pate, and I definitely agree that he is awesome. After reading your post I'm slightly scared about next semester with Lehmann but fortunately my senioritis blocks my ability to worry too much.

 

[novawildcat]

Pchem is one of the most overrated courses for difficulty. A lot of people who take PChem get lost in just simple high school algebra. The calculus used in Pchem is also very simple, people just make it out harder to be than it really is. Don't get too concerned about solving equations; learning what the equations say is hell of a lot more important than trying to "solve the equation for x". Pchem is definitely one of the most interesting chem courses offered.

 

[LJDHC05]

It was doable...as long as you keep on top of the lecture material and aren't afraid of differential equations and some hardcore calc. Conceptually, some of the quantum stuff is mind blowing, but mathematically it's not too bad once you get yourself used to spending 16 hours and 10 pages for a 3 question problem set.

 

[melovet]

I am currently taking the Quantum part of pchem, and I really do not enjoy the course at all. It is basically explaining everything in terms of math that you learn in gen chem. I kind of think that the course is just a math course, not really a chemistry course. I mean, I understand the importance but I feel as though pchem requires a special type of person.

 

[tncekm]

So, would most of you say that if you've done a year of calc its probably not enough math to really understand what's going on?

 

[novawildcat]

So, would most of you say that if you've done a year of calc its probably not enough math to really understand what's going on?

1 year of calc is plenty. You will not be solving hardcore differential equations, it is a chemistry class not a math class. With 1 year of calc you should be able to solve the differential equation

d^2f(x)/dx^2=af(x) where a is just some number.

That is the type of diff eqs you will see in pchem. Multivariable calc is really easy once you know Calc I and II. Instead of taking a derivative once like you do in Calc I, you just take it 3 times for a function of 3 variables . Your pchem professor will spend time going over multivariable differentiation/integration (that is if Calc III isn't a prereq.) At my school the only math requirement for Chem majors was Calc I and II. Just think of Pchem as Gen chem on roids. You learn the same stuff except with a more rigorous foundation.

 

[tncekm]

Oh, gotcha. I think we touched multi-var calc toward the end of Calc II.

I just may brutalize myself and take pchem after i get an acceptance somewhere--just out of curiousity. I do much better when I'm taking hard classes than easy ones, and from what I hear, pchem is one of the rougher ones 😀

Thanks for the reply.

 

[bluegto70]

hardest class i've ever taken and i'm a chem major/math minor, but depends on prof. look forward to quantum mechanics and deriving a lot of stuff, also not clearly understanding anything. grading range in my class was like 85-100 is an A, which helped.

 

[PEN15]

It's way better than orgo and I majored in chem.

 

[tncekm]

It's way better than orgo and I majored in chem.

Way easier than orgo, eh? Anybody agree? 😀

 

[PEN15]

Way easier than orgo, eh? Anybody agree? 😀

I also like math so there lies the culprit. 🙄

 

[tncekm]

I like math more than orgo if that counts 😀 Calc I found to be an absolute cake-walk, orgo took some work. That truly was the first A I ever "earned".

 

[future_dr_house]

I like math more than orgo if that counts 😀 Calc I found to be an absolute cake-walk, orgo took some work. That truly was the first A I ever "earned".

I agree totally. Calc was more like, wake up from the frat haze and go into class and take a test. Orgo on the other hand took some major effort.

 

[EmbellisMaVie]

I just may brutalize myself and take pchem after i get an acceptance somewhere--just out of curiousity. I do much better when I'm taking hard classes than easy ones, and from what I hear, pchem is one of the rougher ones 😀

It is rough, but I think it's worthwhile if you like chem/physics stuff. For what it's worth, more than one med school interviewer has made some comment to me like, "So how'd you enjoy pchem?" with a slight look of admiration/sympathy.

 

[tncekm]

Hmm...I'll def. look into it 😀 So tempting. I don't actually enjoy school, I just hate being bored while I'm there.

 

[DHMO]

I was a chem major and I think math and physics are strong points for me; but Pchem was by leaps and bounds the hardest class I have ever taken (4th year med student). Like others have said, it's not the math that is difficult (in fact, it is pretty easy), but understanding how that math applies to real world situations. I had no problem with quantum physics, but Pchem was just ridiculously hard (especially the thermo part of it).

 

[xucardsfan08]

My school's curriculum is slightly different than most of yours. Physical Chemistry I (3cr) covers thermodynamics. Physical Chemistry II (2cr) covers kinetics and Quantum Chemistry (2cr) covers quantum mechanics. PChemII is MW and Quantum is WF.

The good thing though is that you will be a master of the physical science section (if you look at the average MCAT scores based on majors from AMCAS you will see us chem/physics majors score the highest!).

Someone said it before, the math and calculus isn't too difficult. You won't be solving a problem like you would on a CalcII test. They aren't testing your integration skills, but your application skills.

Good luck!

 

[stat3113]

So at my school, PChem officially only requires GenChem 1 and GenChem 2 (in addition to Calc/Phys). I have NOT taken Organic. I am a math major and I love math (that was my favorite part of GenChem 2, all the math). Do you think I should be good?

Since my GenChem grades werent that great, I guess I want to take an upper level class and do well to equalize the effect.

Also, my physics grades weren't that great either (I have taken 15 creds), but that's b/c I didn't go to class or do hw. I think I understood the stuff. So I was thinking of taking "Computational Astrophysics", also for the same principle, of taking an upper level class to neutralize the poor grades at the lower level.

Assuming I can do well in either of the two (Pchem and Computational astrophys), I assume Pchem would be more attractive to adcoms, since it is more pertinent to medschool stuff? and it would be more useful in preparing me for mcats? is that right?

 

[EmbellisMaVie]

Assuming I can do well in either of the two (Pchem and Computational astrophys), I assume Pchem would be more attractive to adcoms, since it is more pertinent to medschool stuff? and it would be more useful in preparing me for mcats? is that right?

Eh, I doubt that pchem is really that pertinent to medschool at all, and to be honest, I think that either of those choices will/won't prepare you equally well/not well in terms of the PS section of the MCAT. What I mean by that is that both of them will give you a lot in the way of quantitative reasoning and computation, but neither topic in and of itself is going to be of much value on the MCAT. Besides, if you already have the math skills, I don't really see how taking the class would necessarily improve your PS score. I feel like it's a correlation-does-not-equal-causation sort of thing.

That said, I think either would be a fine choice. Just take which one would be more interesting to you; I think adcoms will recognize that they're both tough courses that require a lot of math. If they ask, you can say something like, "I'm very mathematically oriented, and I've always been really interested in how the universe works," etc., etc. In that respect, I would think both classes would apply equally to medicine.

 

[xucardsfan08]

EmbellisMaVie, he wasn't commenting in the pertinence of the class to med school. He asked the same question I asked my academic advisor.
"If I got a sub-par grade in GenChem/Physics, should I retake the class (Chem/Physics major)?"
Answer: No, because if you hypothetically get an A in PChem I+II but got a C in GenChemI+II the adcomm's will know that you are able to handle the material, even better then people who got an A in GenChem.
If you get an A in PChem, you can get a 100% on every GenChem test in no time at all.

And yes, I took the diagnostic MCAT at Kaplan and I noticed that my higher chemical background helped in the PS section.
My reasoning for why Chem majors do better on the tests vs. Bio majors is that Biology is strictly memorization. Taking advanced Bio courses will only delve deeper into topics, but won't be of help on the MCAT. However, taking PChem and upper-level Chem classes will help you out for the Chem/Phys questions b/c you have a deeper meaning of the subject beyond knowing the basic GenChem equations.

An example would be an exothermic/endothermic rxn question involving dG, dS, dH, and K. Taking PChem will force you to know all the relationships of each and will be easy to comprehend a non-regurgitation question.

 

[EmbellisMaVie]

EmbellisMaVie, he wasn't commenting in the pertinence of the class to med school. He asked the same question I asked my academic advisor.
"If I got a sub-par grade in GenChem/Physics, should I retake the class (Chem/Physics major)?"
Answer: No, because if you hypothetically get an A in PChem I+II but got a C in GenChemI+II the adcomm's will know that you are able to handle the material, even better then people who got an A in GenChem.
If you get an A in PChem, you can get a 100% on every GenChem test in no time at all.

Ah, that makes a lot more sense now. In that case, I agree completely.

 

[stat3113]

ok to be clear:

i have crappy grades in physics
i have crappy grades in gen chem (I still have to take organic)

I can take one upper-level course (either Computational Astrophys OR PChem) to neutralize my bad grades in the lower level classes

While I'm more interested in the Astrophys, from what you guys have said, its slightly more important to prove my competency (to adcoms) in Chem rather than Phys, so I should go with Pchem. Right?

 

[EmbellisMaVie]

ok to be clear:

i have crappy grades in physics
i have crappy grades in gen chem (I still have to take organic)

I can take one upper-level course (either Computational Astrophys OR PChem) to neutralize my bad grades in the lower level classes

While I'm more interested in the Astrophys, from what you guys have said, its slightly more important to prove my competency (to adcoms) in Chem rather than Phys, so I should go with Pchem. Right?

Well. Hmm... I think I was confusing myself, although that may have something to do with the fact that it's 4:30 AM. Just a guess.

But to answer your question succinctly, in your situation, I'd go with pchem. (Although, personally, I'd prefer pchem in the first place.) Besides, pchem will show your competence in both chem and physics. It is "physical chemistry," after all.

 

[DHMO]

ok to be clear:

i have crappy grades in physics
i have crappy grades in gen chem (I still have to take organic)

I can take one upper-level course (either Computational Astrophys OR PChem) to neutralize my bad grades in the lower level classes

While I'm more interested in the Astrophys, from what you guys have said, its slightly more important to prove my competency (to adcoms) in Chem rather than Phys, so I should go with Pchem. Right?

If you have crappy grades in gen chem and physics, what makes you so sure that you can nail pchem? Is it because there's higher math? As someone else said on here, pchem is like genchem on roids. If you struggled with the concepts of genchem, I think pchem would be exceedingly difficult. Again, it's not the math that makes pchem difficult.

 

[MinnyGophers]

ok to be clear:

i have crappy grades in physics
i have crappy grades in gen chem (I still have to take organic)

I can take one upper-level course (either Computational Astrophys OR PChem) to neutralize my bad grades in the lower level classes

While I'm more interested in the Astrophys, from what you guys have said, its slightly more important to prove my competency (to adcoms) in Chem rather than Phys, so I should go with Pchem. Right?

You should make sure first that you know what you are getting yourself into signing up for either of these classes.
If you are confident you can do well in those, then go ahead.
But if you had crappy grades for both physics and chem because you had trouble with the classes and not because you were just lazy, then you better work your ass off. Pchem is NOTHING like general chem/physics in terms of diffculty.