Physical Therapy vs. Chiropractic

[Jack Daniel]

I disagree: a chiropractor is a doctor. The word doctor is defined as "anyone with a doctorate; not necessarily associated with practioners of medicine."

Does a chiropractor have a doctorate? Yes.
Is a chiropractor a real physician? No.
Is a chiropractor a real doctor. Yes.

I have no problem with DC addressed as doctor.

However, I think your post borders on using "doctor" as a "weasel word". You're using "doctor" first as a title (or holder of a doctorate) but then allowing the word "doctor" to be open for use as its accepted meaning, which is physician.

In a university, there's no confusion. In a healthcare setting, there is.

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[611]

http://www.fclb.org/directory/florida.pdf
FYI

 

[GujuMD]

How much do D.C. make starting out?

 

[DoctorMG]

BackTalk - I aggree with all your replies to ScottDoc regarding DC's except for one;

"Not true. Again, there are many ethical chiropractors in the 6 figure club including me and there are ones who are in the 7 figure club. I agree with much of what you said but disagree that you have to be dishonest to make it in chiropractic. To me it sounds like you are an ethical chiropractor who never "made it" and therefore think that the only way to make it is to be dishonest and dupe patients."

My experience is that ScottDoc is right when he says that very few honest DCs are wealthy (netting +150k lets say). I've been practicing for some time as an associate and on my own, my patients love me (in fact they refuse to be treated by the owner of the practice), and I very competent as a DC. You claim that you are in the 7 figure club and that you don't employ any of the schemes that those practice management groups teach. I dont know ANY DCs who make a decent living who don't either dupe patients or are in the PI field. How can you possibly have made it? If what you say is true it will give me a new hope, please tell me how, because I am seriously debating go back to school for my MD or DO just like Scott.

 

[FoughtFyr]

BackTalk - I aggree with all your replies to ScottDoc regarding DC's except for one;

"Not true. Again, there are many ethical chiropractors in the 6 figure club including me and there are ones who are in the 7 figure club. I agree with much of what you said but disagree that you have to be dishonest to make it in chiropractic. To me it sounds like you are an ethical chiropractor who never "made it" and therefore think that the only way to make it is to be dishonest and dupe patients."

My experience is that ScottDoc is right when he says that very few honest DCs are wealthy (netting +150k lets say). I've been practicing for some time as an associate and on my own, my patients love me (in fact they refuse to be treated by the owner of the practice), and I very competent as a DC. You claim that you are in the 7 figure club and that you don't employ any of the schemes that those practice management groups teach. I dont know ANY DCs who make a decent living who don't either dupe patients or are in the PI field. How can you possibly have made it? If what you say is true it will give me a new hope, please tell me how, because I am seriously debating go back to school for my MD or DO just like Scott.

BackTalk was banned from these forums for violations of the TOS. He cannot answer your question. My views on the matter should be easy to ascertain from the posts above. Take the time and go to medical school. You'll be happier and your community will be better served.

- H

 

[lines]

I dont understand what the problem is here. I am going to chiro school because a chiro helped me and i want to help others. Pts do the same thing, i am assuming. i dont see why there is any animosity. if you cant make it as either, then get another job. sheesh. everything is not for everyone. i have noticed, though, that pt students seem a bit afraid and angry towards chiro students. oh well, i geuss that is why i like alternative medicines. they will never understand or admit to the forces that made my back pain go away.

but again, if you cant make is as a chiro dont blame pts. and also vica versa. i am going to be a great chiropractor. but if i fail, then im not going to blame politics or be angry. i'll just do something else. your job does not define you.

YOUR JOB DOES NOT DEFINE YOU!

btw, i made 1420 on my sats and went to a great great undergrad. i still chose chiropractic because I LOVE it and believe in it. IT WORKS, sometimes. when it does its amazing. the unknown factor is what is so great and inspiring. this really burns up certain pt students i think. i cant wait to see what happens here. many many people, who think they are smarter than me, have tried to sway me toward physical therapy or medical school but I know what i saw. Pts and chiros should be working together. Or else group them into one NEW AND UNIQUE entity. One cannot assimilate the other. That is not fair, and so, will never occur in a free democracy built on law and reason.

 

[dctruth]

I've read most of the posts in this thread. Some were diplomatic, some lashing, especially towards the DC. Wow! I sure would have a field trip hanging out with you guys. And after all that I have accomplished in my 20 year career as a successful doctor of chiropractic, seeing hundreds (400 pv/week) of patients, the "too numerous to count" referrals to PT, MD, DPM, etc., I realize now that I have another mission besides helping people regain and maintain their health. This mission entails educating future and present doctors and therapists of the facts on chiropractic education and its art and science.

First let me say it was very easy to figure out that most of yas don't know what your talking about when it comes to the art and science of chiropractic, or any of the other degreed professionals whom you wish to belong to or bash. How could you though? You all would need an education from a doctor of chiropractic to learn about chiropractic, not an education from an MD/DO/DPM/PT/OD/DVM/etc. to teach you on chiropractic! So before you all go ahead and just blurted out your arm chair thoughts to each other on the art and science of chiropractic, hear it from a NY/NC licensed DC. I hold a BS in biology and a DC for those who believe chiropractic doctors don't hold degrees. Not every DC/MD school requires a bachelors degree you know. Read the fine print and you will find that it states that they suggest: completion of a bachelors before applying. DC/MD schools do take those without a bachelors. They still need your bodies and money.

Now I must admit my initial feelings and reaction were: I'm hurt to read what these future health care professionals thought of chiropractic, but now I'm going to write hurtful things in retaliation. I'm not here to fight, just to educate and set the record straight. If you care to join me, we will use only objective information that all of us can refer to from any medium available. What I write next are just the facts. No subjective info., just the facts. Ready?, let's begin.

Go to your browser and keyword the following statements so that you can read "it" for yourself:

Chiropractic is the fastest growing health care profession in the U.S.A. Remember, check your references. I did, but you need to check for yourself. Sorry for giving more homework than you already have. Then when you find this truth, you then can reformulate your opinion to reflect otherwise.

The doctor of chiropractic (DC) degree is the most educated of the primary health care providers. That's right folks. You couldn't really notice the difference in curriculum between DC school and MD/DO school until
the divergence at adjustive techniques and related issues vs pharmacology and surgery. DC school is on the average of 250- 500 hrs more. Life University's College Of Chiropractic has (not maybe has), the most comprehensive and lengthy program of any doctoral school in the world. Nearly 5000 hours! of primary care and adjustive technique instruction. Keyword in: chiropractic education vs medical education. So maybe when you come across a DC you could conger some respect for this highly educated doctor. Check out the DC schools, the students and faculty have a blast there. The faculty (DC/MD/DO/PHD) are more interested in your's and chiropractics success by inviting you to enroll, not excluding you and kicking you out. There is a very rigorous exit proficiency program to weed out those that need to sharpen up before setting them free. Interested in a career in chiropractic? You'll be respected by your patients, especially when they are surprised to see how knowledgeable and skilled you are, and when they learn from you that health comes from the natural healing forces of the body that you helped liberate then express. Many of my patients have told me that they feel that I posses more knowledge and explain everything to them more clearly than their MD, and that even though their original complain was spinal pain, they feel healthier. I smile and thank them for the compliment and feed back. However in my conscious, I thank Life College of Chiropractic for its gift to me that I give to others.

Chiropractic doctors are licensed to perform physical examinations, differential diagnosis, x-ray, draw blood, collect urine, and order diagnostic tests. All true. Though we (DC) prefer "KISS" (keep it simple stupid) by detecting and correcting subluxations of the spine, letting the body do the rest, some, not all, routinely perform all or some of the above. Some more than others, some less than others. Whatever it takes to get the job done! Don't take the license to prescribe tests, drugs, or perform surgery as a status symbol. Allopathy and chiropractic are approaches to helping people with their health issues. Chiropractic performs this without the use of drugs or surgery and is damn good at that too. Some states discuss or offer the chiropractic doctor prescriptive rights. Thank g-d that that has not become a reality. It only takes a few courses in pharmacology/toxicology to fulfill the requirements for a chiropractic doctor. Why destroy the uniqueness of chiropractic and "fold" as the DO did. It would sound like this:A hybrid professional has been born, one that will dispense the very drugs that suppressed the symptoms then killed over 100,000 Americans last year, while he/she adjusts you. I give to you... (drum roll)...the "Medipractor"!

Here's some trivia! Which type of doctor was the first to perform and interpret diagnostic x-rays, and receives the most roentgenological instruction? CHIROPRACTIC DOCTORS!

Beyond earning the DC degree, the chiropractic doctor can earn diplomat status in orthopedics (DABCO), neurology (DACAN), pediatrics, sports medicine, etc. These are not cake walk diplomat programs folks, many have not succeeded.

Purpose of MD: allopathy

Purpose of DO: allopathy. They rarely manipulate. Not "adjust" as chiropractic doctors do. Manipulation is the act of contacting then influencing an area of soft or hard tissues. A chiropractic adjustment is a specific contact on a specific vertebrae or vertebral motor unit, influencing it/them into proper juxta position, which then will decrease inflammation surrounding adjacent neural tissue. DO? basically an MD.

Purpose of DC: Same as mentioned as above describing a vertebral adjustment: Detect and correct biomechanical malfunctions of the spine that impede both central and autonomic nervous system feed to and from all tissues of the body. Evaluate, access, and advise healthy lifestyle (includes all aspects of the persons life including environmental, mental stress, and nutrition). We are not trained or skilled to perform what the PT's do so wonderfully; rehabilitating torn or deranged joints, or teaching a person to walk again. The DC does not belong in their world as much as they should not be in ours, when they try to perform what the DC has to learn in 4 years of hard work focusing on the spine and nervous system.

DPT/PT: Diagnosing (DPT), assessing, and developing a treatment plan for the rehabilitation and retraining of torn/deranged joints. Period! The DPT allows the patient direct (primary) access to the DPT. Here, there is very little differential diagnosis for full systems, including spine and nervous system. The PT should stay here and capitalize on this sector. They own it and deserve it. Avoid internal and medical field pressure to try to duplicate or negate chiropractic by building a hybrid PT that could try to replace the DC. Remember the hybrid DC that would be destined to fail if he/she perscribed drugs? Ok, you forgot. "A new hybrid professional has been born...I give to you (drum roll)...the Doctor Of Physical Therapyactor (DPTC) is born! Chiropractic has very little in common with PT and this is good. We need both, but not both the same. I know a lot of you may take this as a shock. There is nothing in common between DC and PT, except that many DC's use physiotherapy modalities on soft tissue, which a lot of DC's think is foolish. We detect and correct biomechanical failures of the spine, not rehabilitate soft tissue!

Got to put the kids to bed. Do your research, I want to see that you guys wore out your mouses and tore your browsers.

Goodnight,

dctruth

 

[dctruth]

Whenever one of you asks for random double blind studies or any other proof of the efficacy of chiropractic, please ask for my advice before you ask such a confounding demand.

You see, I really do not want you to be too embarrassed when I demand of you to produce any/if there are double blind random studies of most of the prescription drugs out there or to come down the pike, because my young man, there are none! Most of the drugs that the FDA has approved or considering, do not have random studies in place. The drug manufacturer hires a pharmaceutical monitoring company that collects data comprised of how many adverse events occured during a drugs trial. If a drug reveals an "acceptable" (wow this is scary, think Celebrex) ratio of adverse events to no or minor events, it passes the FDA. "Ye ha! Were gonna make billions dude! "says the pharm co.

Ask the millions of satisfied chiropractic patients and the malpractice insurance company I pay only $1500/year to; "is chiropractic care efficable and safe?

Please, stop hurting yourself by trying to bash chiropractic. You can't bash chiropractic. It has been around for thousands of years (before medicine) and only recently coined as chiropractic (Greek for; done by hand) 125 years ago by Daniel David Palmer.

Is my job here to teach yas about chiropractic and help you all accept it, as it is here to stay. You all need it for your own personal health and to refer to your patients.

This is going to be all your homeworks: If you haven't been examined, x-rayed, and treated by a doctor of chiropractic, I want you all to do it this or next week. That's an order! How can you ever pass any form of judgement on chiropractic when you never experienced such an eye opener of an experience. You will learn something about yourselves that you may have thought impossible!

Good night,

dctruth

I will bet you will report that you had an informative and quite possibly a fun experience

 

[guetzow]

On a more PRACTICAL note, if "I" had to make the choice, I'd go PT. There is a much higher compensation on average, as well as better job/patient population/reimbursement issue stability. Debate over

 

[macmini]

http://www.chirobase.org just have a look. I may be a cliche but garbage in garbage out. It is really hard to practice science based medicine with an institution that has its foundation in mythical thinking. Nothing against those that practice responsibly but still don't you find it difficult to extract any real science from your profession.

 

[paPTA]

Someone posted (forgive me, but I forget whom) that PT is primarily psychological, and hinted that PTs are more "cheerleaders" than anything else. However, I STRONGLY disagree!

I am working in an outpatient facility that sees PAs, MDs, RNs, as well as janitors and lord knows who else! Why do such a wide array of individuals come to PT? Why do MDs refer patients for Physical Therapy? Because it works!

Physical therapy is diversifying as quickly as new PTs are graduating. In my clinic, we see a diverse population, including neuro patients and orthopedic patients. Are we just "cheerleaders" or sources of enlightened encouragement for our patients? Absolutely not.

If not for PT, would many of the incomplete SCIs be able to regain function and ambulate independently with assistive devices? No. They wouldn't know where to begin to improve their function. Would stroke patients be able to break past barriers that spasticity can cause? Doubtful. Would a patient with adhesive capsulitis of the shoulder be able to regain full ROM? Probably not.

So yes, maybe there is a certain amount of "cheerleading" and encouragement in PT...but maybe that's what patients need after being thrown in and out of their doctors' office (not all MDs are brief with patients, of course!). And all of our "cheerleading" coupled with scientific, rehabilitative know-how is making for some dynamic, life-altering results for our patients.

 

[Taylor355]

I find it fascinating to read this post, especially after watching the lecture by anesthesiologist, Bill Kinsinger, MD last week at a conference to PTs, MDs, & DOs:


http://ph-ms.ouhsc.edu/ah/rehab/kinsinger.wmv
(link from the Univ. of Oklahoma Rehab Sciences Department)

Especially to RNs & PAs, it is good to be informed about the recommendations you provide to patients. Things may not be what you assume!

 

[lawguil]

Chiropractic is a well established placebo at best

PT also has their own problems....practice is based not on evidence, but on billing and reimbursement.....

 

[boulux]

I find it fascinating to read this post, especially after watching the lecture by anesthesiologist, Bill Kinsinger, MD last week at a conference to PTs, MDs, & DOs:


http://ph-ms.ouhsc.edu/ah/rehab/kinsinger.wmv
(link from the Univ. of Oklahoma Rehab Sciences Department)

Especially to RNs & PAs, it is good to be informed about the recommendations you provide to patients. Things may not be what you assume!

wow, that's scary!

 

[Bochka]

So what is the difference between a physiatrist, an osteopath, dpt, and a chiropractor? Don't they all learn about accessory manipulation techniques?

When is comes down to manipulations, I would say that the PT, DO and Chiropractor are best qualified. The main difference between these professions, is the amount of time spent with the patient. Yes, PT's are more than qualified to perform manipulations as are MD's/ DO's and chiropractors, but what the general public doesn't know is that there are many different techniques one can use to manipulate. The the real difference comes by who is the best clinician. In other words you can't just manipulate to get the "crack". That's the equivelent of an MD/DO giving you an aspirin for every single problem you have from cancer to athlete's foot, that doesn't work.


(After listening to Dr. Kisinger's video....thank you Taylor 355)

PT's should hold a Doctor of PT, it's simply a degree which one earns. If I have to take 30 CEU's every 2 years for the rest of my career, then why not get a doctorate? Our Field has to recognize that if we don't advance we'll die. We are doing evidenced-based work, getting people better using many different modalities to help people (not just stim etc), while Chiro's use one main tool to help people...no matter what the person's clinical presentation is!!! and they should hold a doctorate????
They can give someone a stroke by manipulating the neck, because manipulation is all they know and do...but for some reason we shouldn't hold a doctorate? As far as I know NO CHIROPRACTOR HAS ADMITTING RIGHTS OR CHIRO SECTION IN HOSPITALS, because there's no evidence that it works....yet they claim to be able to treat everything from psoriasis to ear infections, without having a single clinical rotation in any in hospital? and they should be doctors? I'm sort of tired of hearing PT's complain about the DPT debate advancement of our field. I for one am tired of being treated like second class ancillary personnel. We should've been DPT's a long time ago, unfortunately we don't have a strong lobby.

 

[184013]

I was driving by a chiro office in my part of town which had a sign for colon cleansing...

where does it end

 

[deleted6669]

I was driving by a chiro office in my part of town which had a sign for colon cleansing...

where does it end

a local DC near me has a sign that says:

xyz medical clinic
primary care, prevention, and rehabilitation for adults and children
Dr john smith, DC

not that it's false advertising or anything( !@#$%)

 

[millertj]

What do these initials stand for?

 

[doodoo]

Whenever one of you asks for random double blind studies or any other proof of the efficacy of chiropractic, please ask for my advice before you ask such a confounding demand.

You see, I really do not want you to be too embarrassed when I demand of you to produce any/if there are double blind random studies of most of the prescription drugs out there or to come down the pike, because my young man, there are none! Most of the drugs that the FDA has approved or considering, do not have random studies in place. The drug manufacturer hires a pharmaceutical monitoring company that collects data comprised of how many adverse events occured during a drugs trial. If a drug reveals an "acceptable" (wow this is scary, think Celebrex) ratio of adverse events to no or minor events, it passes the FDA. "Ye ha! Were gonna make billions dude! "says the pharm co.

Ask the millions of satisfied chiropractic patients and the malpractice insurance company I pay only $1500/year to; "is chiropractic care efficable and safe?

Please, stop hurting yourself by trying to bash chiropractic. You can't bash chiropractic. It has been around for thousands of years (before medicine) and only recently coined as chiropractic (Greek for; done by hand) 125 years ago by Daniel David Palmer.

Is my job here to teach yas about chiropractic and help you all accept it, as it is here to stay. You all need it for your own personal health and to refer to your patients.

This is going to be all your homeworks: If you haven't been examined, x-rayed, and treated by a doctor of chiropractic, I want you all to do it this or next week. That's an order! How can you ever pass any form of judgement on chiropractic when you never experienced such an eye opener of an experience. You will learn something about yourselves that you may have thought impossible!

Good night,

dctruth

I will bet you will report that you had an informative and quite possibly a fun experience

Okay, so if I sometimes have 24 back pain after particularly vigorous exercising, went to a DC, and he saw some irregularity (phase 1) on the L5 area, and prescribed 3 visits per week for a month and 2 visits per week for six weeks, is this overboard, or may this potentially help my lower back health? Am I being snowed here for too many sessions, or should I trust him and try it out, shelling out about 500 dollars and insurance covering 500 dollars. Is it worth trying?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Okay, so if I sometimes have 24 back pain after particularly vigorous exercising, went to a DC, and he saw some irregularity (phase 1) on the L5 area, and prescribed 3 visits per week for a month and 2 visits per week for six weeks, is this overboard, or may this potentially help my lower back health? Am I being snowed here for too many sessions, or should I trust him and try it out, shelling out about 500 dollars and insurance covering 500 dollars. Is it worth trying?

MOD NOTE: Providing medical or medically-related advice is not allowed on SDN. Please consult your PCP and/or other medical professional for a professional opinion. -t4c

 

[184013]

who would have guessed that post#1 from "doo doo" would be considered trollish ... how cliche.

 

[JonnyLSU]

Chiropractic and OMT is mostly quackery. Please show me the randomized, double blinded, placebo controlled clinical trials for OMT and chiro therapy.

Chiro is good for only 2 things: back pain and headaches. other than that, its worthless.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7V95wyb63s[/youtube]

 

[Rhue]

I am a recent graduate of a chiropractic school in 2006. I had to switch professions because the field of chiropractic is so bad right now. I would not recommend anyone go into this field. US News now rates chiropractic as one of the most over-rated careers. In the past 20 years or so, many people entered the field of chiropractic because it was rated one of highest paying careers with the most job satisfaction. That is not true anymore. The 1980s were a very good financial time for all medical providers because insurance re-inbursement rates were so high. Chiropractors are just getting by on insurance scraps now (save for good auto-insurance, and this is beginning to change in many states).

http://www.usnews.com/articles/busin...ctor-2009.html

The average salary for a new chiropractor is between $30-36K. I definitely found this to be the case. When I went job hunting, no one would offer more than $3K a month as a base salary. Bonus incentives are included in these contracts, but they can be very difficult to achieve. The contracts I received were designed so that I could not get a bonus very easily. Most new associate chiropractors are sent to do marketing jobs for established chiropractors. This includes doing spinal screenings at malls, health fairs, conventions, grocery stores, etc. Chiropractors have to work very hard to market for new patients. There is a gross over-supply of chiropractors right now in most major cities. Very few people find job offers that pay more than $30-36K a year. Usually the only chiropractic associate jobs that pay more are the ones that specialize in auto-accidents and Worker's compensation claims. From personal experience, the field of personal injury can be a VERY dirty business. The man that offered me my first job just had his license suspended for illegal telemarketing to auto-accident victims (they buy their telephone numbers from police reports, which are a public record).

Since chiropractor tuition is expensive (it costs around $150K to become a chiropractor) and the average salaries of new graduates are only a little over 30K, it will become very difficult to ever pay these loans off. There are only a couple other options for a new chiropractor. One is to open a new practice, and the other is to lease space in an existing practice. Since it is exorbitantly expensive to open a new practice, many new chiropractors choose to start their own business inside of an existing practice. Chiropractic graduates know that associateships just don't pay well enough, so they try to set up their own practices with very little real world clinical or business experience. In my graduating class, half of the class or more tried to set up their own practice. Oddly enough, most of these people tried to set up their practice in the city they graduated from because they did not want to relocate. I am sure you can see the problem with a large chunk of the graduating class all trying to set up their own new business in the same city. This cycle happens year after year after year, so the oversupply of chiropractors never diminishes.

I can assure you that a few years after graduation, a large portion of my fellow graduates have already gone out of business or are very close to drying up. This is a very difficult situation to be in, as new businesses of all kinds have a high failure rate. But why take up so many student loans just to be in a risky business proposition? The field of chiropractic has the highest student loan default rate of any health profession, and it is going to get much, much worse very soon (since insurance re-imbursement rates have fallen so low). Many chiropractors have been devastated by their decision to go to chiropractic school. The number of people who are barely scraping by in chiropractic is much, much higher than the number of people who were able to make a six-figure income.

Notice that I have not once brought up the validity or efficacy of chiropractic. That is a completely different topic and subject of debate. However, I will say that the internal problems of chiropractic is what is leading to chiropractic being such a difficult field to practice in. I have purely written this post on the economic prospects of being a chiropractor for a prospective medical student. Don't do it.

The admission standards for chiropractic school are non-existant. There are no admission interviews, and a student can get accepted with a 2.5 GPA. While chiropractors take many of the same classes as M.D.s, the scope and difficulty of their classes does not even remotely compare (except for anatomy, which chiropractors have good training in). Chiropractic schools have to have such low standards because the schools are run completely on loan money. They need the influx of students to keep the schools in business. Enrollment at chiropractic schools has been down, so the admission standards have been lowered. Would you want to go to a school with this kind of brain drain? Finally, I do want to mention that I did have some very bright classmates. Some of my classmates did have 4.0 GPAs and entered chiropractic because they were passionate about it. However, these exceptional students are greatly outnumbered by the students who do not care about academics. There is a saying in chiropractic schools that 'Ds and Cs make a D.C.' There is actually some truth to this statement.

With the new doctorate in Physical Therapy, physical therapists are beginning to market for much of the same patient base as chiropractors. Doctors in Physical Therapy are also activing lobbying to gave rights to perform physical manipulation like chiropractors do. If you are interested in chiropractic, avoid it all costs and become an osteopath or a doctor in physical therapy.

If anyone has actually read this far I have posted another similar prospective from a different chiropractic graduate. He actually has had a more difficult time than even I did. Read his words and heed them carefully.

The Truth from a new-grad Chiropractor

Here is the absolute bottom line for those of you searching information on the internet and trying to decide whether or not you want to become a chiropractor. I graduated in 2008 with $150,000 in student debt from Parker College in Dallas, TX. Sounds like a lot, huh? That 150K is primary, no interest accounted for. Parker is now the most EXPENSIVE chiropractic college in the nation.

After all that time (you'll spend anywhere from 3 to 4 years in undergrad and then at least 3 years for chiropractic school) and all that amounting debt (gaining interest, too!) So, you must be thinking I've got an incredible job and everything is peachy-keen, right? I landed a job right before graduation with a chiropractor who's respected as one of the most efficient and effective Musculoskeletal clinicians in the state.

My pay? $26,000 per year. The only benefit is I don't have to go through the humiliation of spinal screenings or suckering people into becoming patients at the local Big Lots. Of course there are better jobs out there, even chiropractic jobs, but the average is about 32,000 per year for new graduates. If you aren't making what you spent on school every year, you made a POOR INVESTMENT, and the vast majority of chiropractors don't make 150K, even after decades of experience.

I could have just saved the time and money I spent on schooling and gone as a high-school graduate to work at Home Depot and I would STILL be making more. I feel humiliated, mislead, and bitter EVERY DAY. My chiropractic prospects are very limited despite just entering the medical work force. My wife and I have a new baby and I can't provide to pay for housing and food, so we have almost $10,000 in credit card debt, without hope of being able to pay it off anytime soon. The only way to make any amount of money in chiropractic is to open your own practice and what bank would loan money to a young person with $150K in debt??? If you really like manipulation, go to DO school or PT school... Please, please, please stay away from chiropractic school. It will ruin your life.

 

[JonnyLSU]

Rhue,

All I have to say is you need to move somewhere else.

A good friend of mine is three years out of school and is making well over 60k a year as an associate.

In reality though, how can you expect to make a fortune right when you graduate? How much do MDs make during residency? It surely is not much.

There are plenty of jobs starting out over 50k in base for new chiropractors if they are willing to relocate and are good doctors.

Anyone that denies that nerve compression can have detrimental effects on the body must have either a bias or an axe to grind with the profession.

There are many studies on how compressive forces on nerves can alter their function. I don't have time to look them up for you, go to pubmed and search.

The science is slowly catching to what the best chiropractors know from treating their patients.

I was like many of you once. I did not believe anything unless it was scientifically provable. Well, science is already proving that chiropractic works.

Here is a good one for you science guys, explain to me exactly how placebo's work.

 

[JonnyLSU]

I just wanted to add this comment I found about the article Rhue posted.

"Aah, yes....those stupid chiropractors! They only outperform their medical counterparts 2:1 in the treatment of uncomplicated back pain (David Eisenburg, Md, PhD - Harvard Medical School). They only know more than the so-called omnipotent medical physician about the musculoskeletal system - 82% of medical doctors showed incompetency in musculoskeletal disorders (Journal of Bone & Joint Disease; 1998:1421-27). They don't squander literally hundreds of millions of dollars on unnecessary testing procedures (Georgetown University Med Center; 5/19/06)adding to patient endangerment due to the high rate of false-positive results. They don't "Sell Sickness" by medicalizing normal ailments of aging - from baldness, to osteoporosis, to personality quirks; they don't do "Disease Mongering" through fear.

Ahh, yes....some orthopedic surgeons think they can "cure" herniated disk conditions by permanently disabling almost 50% of their surgical patients - at a cost of close on $100,000! Many physicians cause disability by misdiagnosing a musculoskeletal condition and delaying proper treatment with a never-ending array of habit forming drugs! And, yes, the so-called "Medical Machine" keeps pumping patients to medical physicians to the exclusion of simpler more effective and less dangerous treatments that chiropractors offer - no wonder chiropractors need to advertise! Are we to believe that the medical profession doesn't advertise? Where has Mr.Nemko had his head?

There are "cooks" in every profession - even journalism!

A 4-year retrospective claims data analysis comparing more than 700,000 health plan members with an additional chiropractic coverage benefit and 1 million members of the same health plan without the chiropractic benefit.

Members with chiropractic insurance coverage, compared with those without coverage, had lower annual total health care expenditures Having chiropractic coverage was associated with a decrease in total annual health care costs at the health plan level. Back pain patients with chiropractic coverage, compared with those without coverage, had lower utilization of plain radiographs, low back surgery, hospitalizations, and magnetic resonance imaging . Patients with chiropractic coverage, compared with those without coverage, also had lower average back pain episode-related costs

Please say that the Department of Health Services, UCLA School of Public Health, Los Angeles, Calif., is wrong - for Mr. Nemko's sake, if for nothing else!"

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Read: self-selecting patient population.

 

[arielchiro]

If you become a chiropractor, you will be a primary care doc. people can come directly to you for health care.

If you become a physical therapist you will rely on people being referred by MD, DO,or DC to build your practice.

 

[184013]

Actually.. I thought DPTs do not require referrals at this time..... of course all of that is solely driven by current medicare rules which are largely driven by who is in power in the gov and who is in power with the lobbying groups....

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Actually.. I thought DPTs do not require referrals at this time..... of course all of that is solely driven by current medicare rules which are largely driven by who is in power in the gov and who is in power with the lobbying groups....

And the ability for chiropractors to see patients without a referral is a function of the courts and not evidence of safety / efficacy / cost-savings.

 

[facetguy]

And the ability for chiropractors to see patients without a referral is a function of the courts and not evidence of safety / efficacy / cost-savings.

Well, I wouldn't go that far. There have been studies as to using chiros as gatekeepers for back pain, with findings in the positive. Here's a couple quickies:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.silcom.com/~dwsmith/manga.html (This study dates back to 1993 and was funded by the Ontario Ministry of Health; it is a very long report, but the executive summary is provided here. The lead author is a PhD with no connection to the chiropractic profession.)

There is lots of data published as to safety, efficacy and cost-effectiveness. (I think I've got you on this one Josh. BTW, thanks for your time on my previous PMs!)

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Chiropractic might help...I didn't actually say that it is teh fail.



But as far as I know, my point is accurate.

 

[shanereed09]

Does anyone know a good Chiropractor in the Los Angeles area?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Does anyone know a good Chiropractor in the Los Angeles area?

*MOD NOTE: SDN members can not give medical advice or medically related referrals. Please consult your local physician and/or medical provider for a referral.* -t4c

 

[iengbersen]

I have lower back pain and I am wondering if it is from driving?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I have lower back pain and I am wondering if it is from driving?

Just in case you missed the post above your post......

*MOD NOTE: SDN members can not give medical advice or medically related referrals. Please consult your local physician and/or medical provider for a referral.* -t4c

 

[sijtoni]

If you become a chiropractor, you will be a primary care doc. people can come directly to you for health care.
If you become a physical therapist you will rely on people being referred by MD, DO,or DC to build your practice.

Many PTs have their own office where people can walk in and ask physical therapy of all kind. No need to see MD before PT.

Agreed. Anyone who underestimates the value of the PT is an idiot.

Here is one. I have been many times to many different PTs and many times to many different chiropractics, osteopathics and others. I have been many times to few PTs who give HVLA. One was very good with neck HVLA, one on thorax area, one gave good massage but had poor skills on HVLA.

My experience tells regular PT is pretty much useless. Also those who use MET haven't given me much value for my money. Best value has been from HVLA treatments but it's been hard to find those who are good with it.

Every expert is very different even if they have same title. So my answer to the topic is: When helping me with my problems, there are few PTs (with HVLA) who are better than many chiropractors. But most experts with HVLA have been much better than any regular PT. My experience is that common physical therapy is about useless.

But that is just my experience.

 

[Farmer Jane]

Thanks to regular ole' PT I have full use of my right hand. Post injury I couldn't open a door knob. Now I can knit cables with no difficulty.

Just my experience, though.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Thanks to regular ole' PT I have full use of my right hand. Post injury I couldn't open a door knob. Now I can knit cables with no difficulty.

Just my experience, though.

I had a college injury that required PT work, and while I was *not* their biggest fan when they were torturing....errr...working with me, I definitely found a lot of value in their work.

 

[sijtoni]

I had a college injury that required PT work, and while I was *not* their biggest fan when they were torturing....errr...working with me, I definitely found a lot of value in their work.

There are different kind of PTs. Some don't much touch you but only show and instruct you how to stretch or exercise.

What is regular PT, I don't know. Every PT is different. Like every chiropractor is different. You need luck in find a good one for you and your problems.

 

[facetguy]

Given that you're rating the value of the practioners based on their ability to perform things like HVLA, massage, etc, that tells me that you are using them for chronic pain issues. In that case, you're essentially choosing which placebo works better based on how much you like the color.

The true value of PT lies in rehab, not raising endorphins through therapeutic touch (aka - chiropractics). Without physical therapy, rehab after surgery/trauma etc is very difficult and sometimes impossible. PT is primarily a tool to restore function, not relieve pain, which is why I get irritated when my patients come back telling me about the therapist who spent an hour using ultrasound on them instead of teaching them exercises and ROM activities.

Your view of chiropractic (and related articular neurophysiology) is too limited.

 

[facetguy]

No. My view of chiropractics is based on clinical evidence showing minimal usefulness of the field, approximately equal to regular doses of non-steroidal anti-inflammatories.

OK. If you say so. And thanks for your continued contribution to chronic low back pain.

 

[capo]

Both professions work but to limited extents because of their limited scopes. Neither is the cure-all for anything. But after MD's fail regularly to relieve low back pain via failed surgery or toxic liver damaging drugs, both are much better conservative ways to treat LPB (with a TON less risk and malpractice worries). My MD only was able to drug me (muscle relaxants/anti-inflamms/pain meds) til I saw the bill for the visit after coming out of this drug-induced stupor, and realizing I lost two ways - in the wallet AND in my liver.

I've been to DC's and PT's, and I feel DC's do MORE. I can get all the stretching and muscle stim/ultrasound, etc. from a DC plus the adjustment that pulls "something" (who to hell knows what, even DO's will admit) away from a pressure feeling, and thus alleviates the nerve transmission that it hurts to my brain (which is ALL I care about when hurting, yes?).

So, for my money, DC is way to go. PT's just milk insurance for me, feeling-wise at least, with little to no relief of symptoms let alone treatment of underlying cause or structural anomaly.

Just my three cents.

 

[capo]

No. My view of chiropractics is based on clinical evidence showing minimal usefulness of the field, approximately equal to regular doses of non-steroidal anti-inflammatories.

How come both DO's and DC's spawned from the same manipulative philosphies? Both Still & Palmer had spinal motion & manipulation as their core tenets. DO's went toward circulation. DC's toward nerves. A.T. Still would turnover in his grave if he saw DO's today.

Every health profession has its merits. You, my friend, need to be more objective & less 1800s-minded. Many old time DO's/DC's could probably treat patients alot better than many recent grads today. Don't knock it til you tried it. I've seen it work up close & personal. Have you felt it yourself, or just assumed it from what other people have told you?

 

[Dwindlin]

Both professions work but to limited extents because of their limited scopes. Neither is the cure-all for anything. But after MD's fail regularly to relieve low back pain via failed surgery or toxic liver damaging drugs, both are much better conservative ways to treat LPB (with a TON less risk and malpractice worries). My MD only was able to drug me (muscle relaxants/anti-inflamms/pain meds) til I saw the bill for the visit after coming out of this drug-induced stupor, and realizing I lost two ways - in the wallet AND in my liver.

I've been to DC's and PT's, and I feel DC's do MORE. I can get all the stretching and muscle stim/ultrasound, etc. from a DC plus the adjustment that pulls "something" (who to hell knows what, even DO's will admit) away from a pressure feeling, and thus alleviates the nerve transmission that it hurts to my brain (which is ALL I care about when hurting, yes?).

So, for my money, DC is way to go. PT's just milk insurance for me, feeling-wise at least, with little to no relief of symptoms let alone treatment of underlying cause or structural anomaly.

Just my three cents.

Your post makes it seems as if you really don't understand the role of DC vs. a PT, especially the bolded statement. PTs job isn't really pain relief its rehab (as Tired already pointed out), PTs are meant to help patients gain function following trauma/surgery/etc. Control of LBP (or other chronic musculoskeletal pain) would fall more under a DC (if you buy into it, but as others have eluded I also personally find them about as useful as NSAIDs).

 

[capo]

I didn't even bother responding to that post, because obviously the person is some kind of nursing student or other para-professional position who has a poor grasp on the role of PT and the standard treatment regimens for chronic low back pain.

I mean, note the repeated comments about "damaging the liver". What drug exactly is he/she talking about with hepatotoxic side effects? Probably doesn't even know.

ALL drugs are metabolized via the liver? Basic physio, no??

Now, PTs clearly don't help many people. I've dealt with tons of them, & they admit that PTs only made their situations worse oftentimes. They ended up getting surgery & then bitched about that failing. At least when a DC makes a mistake, most are correctable as it may take time to reduce the inflammation. A PT is a rehab specialist so to speak, but what makes them different than a MD/DO of Physiatry? (other than obvious inability of PTs to write pain meds or do joint injects, etc.) Other than that they want to upgrade to DPT, so as to further confuse patients, regarding whether they can claim the "Doctor" title.

I don't even see the need for DPT, as way back when PTs were undergrad degrees then went to MPT then now to DPT? Can't you see the bureaucracy at work here folks?

By the way, since when CAN'T a DC do rehab? There's nothing he can't do that a PT can, is there? But...a PT that adjusts without training goes to jail, yes? Try doing HVLA on a patient as a PT, with no training in it, & see how long you're license lasts.

With aging baby boomers & people fed up with conventional medicine, watch DCs explode as much if not more than PTs. Oriental meds even, can catchup w/ medicine soon, as this wealthy older segment of population (that has more money than ANY other pop. this age before in history) WILL pay for avoiding meds & surgery (& getting instant drug-free relief), I'm positive.

So, you guys are either all sound asleep when it comes to what is going to happen or fear it & want to downplay it, lest you lose patients to DCs or other alt. healthcare guys.

 

[capo]

If DC doesn't work, tell that to Lance Armstrong & Tiger Woods among many athletes with alot of cash to toss, & still using "useless" therapies.

Nor do I want to hear, "well they're not smart or experts or ******* celebs, etc.". But I'd rather hear that you admit, they KNOW their crap when it comes to getting back on track & at huge levels of sport most here dream of in another lifetime.

 

[capo]

It's amazing, because there is not a single sentence in this post that is factually correct.

You should probably run back to your fibromyalgia support group. The adult forums aren't really appopriate for someone with your level of education and maturity.

Yeah ok, have another drink.

Nothing correct? Nice blanket statement. Anyone can make them & if I'm challenged will cite examples. Where's your backup, sir?

 

[Paseo Del Norte]

I have to go with Tired on this. All drugs metabolized by the liver? So, I guess kidneys, lungs, intestines, and the like are rather unimportant.

 

[Farmer Jane]

Hmmm.... I guess I was poisoning my liver today while working outside in the garden, with no sunscreen.

 

[facetguy]

Hmmm.... I guess I was poisoning my liver today while working outside in the garden, with no sunscreen.

Were you using pesticides and/or herbicides while you were out there? If yes, then perhaps your liver did take a small hit today.