Physician Stop Loss is alive and well under MAP

[DocArmy]

Currently watching a thread on the private army medical corps FB page where a physician has applied to get out of the army at the end of their ADSO and is being involuntarily denied the ability to quit the army. Their MAP unit is deploying a few weeks before the end of their adso and are refusing to sign their paperwork.

Be aware that you don't automatically get out at the end of your payback. You have to apply for a release from active duty. And the army can say no and force you to stay.

And MAP has made this worse by giving control of your life to some FORSCOM rando who doesn't know you, work with you, or care about you beyond your ability to be a deployable widget.

Hopefully not the start of a trend but who knows any more.

All I know is that UQR packet is getting submitted ASAP.

Edited: pronouns and changed after to before.

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[TheGoose]

Totally agree on the B.S. but for full clarity for those analyzing it (not that I think it matters), the doc's ADSO ends 3 weeks after the unit will deploy. However, the doc's terminal leave would get them out likely a month before that if accepted.

 

[HighPriest]

That is a pretty important clarification. It sucks for the doc, but I know of people who just had their terminal leave denied, and had to stay CONUS until their last day. So, this is complicated by a deployment, but deploying is part of the job. It’s just a crappy situation. If her ADSO was extended, that would be a nightmare.

And for anyone who cares: that can happen. It doesn’t happen, generally, but once you sign on the line the military owns you until they decide they don’t need you anymore. Just because they don’t take advantage of that situation doesn’t mean that they don’t reserve the option to do so.

Or am I misunderstanding? Will the deployment mean she’s retained after her ADSO?

 

[TheGoose]

@HighPriest doc reports their ADSO will be complete 3 weeks after the unit deploys. There is no mention of a split deployment or other arrangement so I believe the implication is that the ADSO will be extended involuntarily by at least the length of deployment (minus 3 wks).

 

[HighPriest]

Ah, yeah, well that does suck

 

[DocArmy]

Yeah. Just losing terminal leave would suck but is tolerable. But pulling a whole deployment after you should have been allowed to quit would be awful.

 

[absolutdokta]

So if they can extend your ADSO for a deployment cycle (I wonder what is being talked in this case: 6, 9....12 (eek!) months?) is there anything that stops them from extending it indefinitely? Just curious when there would come a time that they say “ok....your time was up X-months ago, we’re ready to let you leave now”

 

[haujun]

I wonder if anyone can find regulation on this. Anyways when you google”ETS” and “deployment” you get some interesting answers. If unit really needs you to deploy I am sure it is not surprising to keep you past ADSO. Terminal leave in that case does not makes sense. I just returned from deployment few months ago so I am hoping that I don’t deploy next three years before my retirement. So many doctors are non deployable these days

 

[Gastrapathy]

Sign here for the “scholarship”

 

[Gastrapathy]

For the uninitiated, we are talking about someone being held past her obligation for months because the unit to which she was assigned will deploy during the last 3 weeks of her obligated service. And...we all understand that. Just process that little anecdote. I personally know someone who lost a fellowship due to stop loss. Just one more way that they can rewrite your deal at any time.

 

[Cooperd0g]

1. Yes, this totally sucks for this individual. However,

2. People extend for their own convenience all the time. The military doesn't have to grant the extension, but they very frequently due. How many people, even docs, mismanage their finances to the point where they would be up a creek if they didn't get that extension? A lot.

 

[HighPriest]

I’m not sure I understand the “but”’here.

So, a lot of other people are bad with their money, so they extend their obligation of their own volition, therefore it is understandable that the military is able to extend my obligation against my will?

If you gave me the choice that the military could not stop loss me, but financially-dumb people couldn’t stick around either, I’d have taken the offer.

And, seriously, the Army is for all intents and purposes an immortal thing with unlimited resources, plus it gets the care we provide, so who is really getting the better side of that deal anyway?

This type of thing sucks. It would have sucked if it had happened to me. It’s -really- important to understand that the military has cart blanche on your life when you sign up. But, frankly, while it would have sucked if it had happened to me it isn’t the kind of thing I would have been pissed about. This has always been a part of the deal. It’s the fine print and the inefficiency and the BS that always boiled my blood.

I wouldn’t have been happy, but I would have chalked it up to a very bad hand.

 

[Cooperd0g]

The important thing is, like you said, people need to know that this is a possibility. It is in Title 10 of the USC and has been unsuccessfully challenged multiple times.

But I see requests for extension all the time for all kinds of folks: enlisted, officers, line, staff, yet I have never once heard someone say “wow, that military totally hooked me up by letting me extend my job even knowing I was getting out already.”

That is the point of my “but.”

 

[Gastrapathy]

Once you drop your letter, it’s not easily reversed so I’ve seen exactly that. I’ve also seen many enlisted separated against their will (PTS led to the involuntary separation of good sailors). But the point for our premed readers is that some random low level administrator can force you to stay beyond your obligation and, if that costs you your dream job or residency/fellowship, that is your problem and no one will care.

 

[HighPriest]

Yeah, I definitely met more people who were involuntarily separated (or even separated early to their own glee) than I met who wanted to stick around and did. Especially in the medical corps. But, that's just my experience.

 

[turkish]

I dropped my REFRAD packet the same day as the first "reverse PROFIS" (now MAP) announcement last October. Saw the writing on the wall. I was halfway through ILE, which I ended up finishing in case I went into the reserves. I figured it would lead to stuff like this, and people getting pulled last minute for every little CPX, FTX, urinalysis, etc. That actually happened within a month of the first changes, but can't say I'm surprised to hear line units are stop-lossing their docs.

Drop your papers, folks. Vote with your feet.

 

[d2305]

The government does what it wants. You're not out until you have a DD 214 in hand.