Physicians need to have better PR campaign...

[CoastalOT]

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I am fine with physicians salaries being high, they should be, but as we have more healthcare reform the good ole days of the 90s are quickly fading with billing for procedures going the way of the dodo.

Re the PR Campaign, I think a more rational and nuanced discourse by the members of the profession with regards to healthcare reform will help:
We are hearing a lot of talk about Canadian/European style healthcare, and instead of engaging with this in a rational manner I've heard physicians attacking it mostly with anger due to salary concerns. The average Canadian doctor still makes a hefty salary of 270-380k a year (depending on the province), and has no student loans practically. But I digress: Why do people feel this way? Probably because there are in fact some doctors, a minority, in it just for the money.

I can speak anecdotally from my own family experience, there are a minority of doctors who are in it for the money.

- A cousin is a nephrologist who owns a dialysis clinic and makes 700k
- Another relative physician stated that he sometimes gets patients with one foot in the grave, the answer is to bill bill bill until you can't anymore

There are a lot of physicians in my family and I noticed that they may be a poor representation of the field. They feel they are entitled to a McMansion, a gigantic salary, luxury cars, what most of us would call just short of a rappers lifestyle.

 

[Splenda88]

I am not sure that the average college student can get into med school... The average MCAT is 25 (at least when I took it) and it's a standardized test... and that 25 average is after premeds weed out.

I also had the opportunity to tutor nursing students from a CC, if they represent the average, there is no way in hell most of these people can get even 22+ MCAT and some of them went on to become NP.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

I am not sure that the average college student ca get into med school... The average MCAT is 25 (at least when I took) and it's a standardized test... and that 25 average is after premeds weed out.

I also had the opportunity to tutor nursing students from a CC, if they represent the average, there is no way in hell most of these people can get even 22+ MCAT and some of them went to to become NP.

Nah bro, any average person can get into med school and get a 240. Talent only matters for things we don't get jealous about. Smarts and looks don't matter one bit.

 

[libertyyne]

You keep on moving the goal post.

Lol you drastically overestimate the ability of the average person. You do realize the average man/woman wouldn't ever be able to even get a non-science degree right?

Proven wrong by the statistics provided.

You're jumping around with random numbers, connecting them and pretending that it makes your point. 70% of high school graduates enroll in college, okay what majors? You realize like 15% of degrees awarded are in STEM fields right? Which have lower average GPAs than 3.1. You literally have to be well above average just to get into and obtain a STEM degree, let alone get a GPA that could get you into med school. Not to mention scoring above average on the MCAT.

If you look around in any medical school, not everyone is a STEM graduate.
You dont even have to score above average on the MCAT to get into a DO school. 100K people take the test and 60K people literally have scores in the range of obtaining admissions.

This data is old and does not incorporate grade inflation but you get the point.

You're literally taking gross numbers and the bottom 5th percentiles for med school entry and saying oh look! You can be stupid and get into med school!

I am showing you that it doesnt take much to get into medical school. The DO average is like ~503 with an SD of 5. Literally just an average MCAT score will do. and complete medical school, last i checked there wasnt a massive amount of attrition in those schools.

Anyway, I never said that there aren't smart people in blue collar fields. Or that talent alone is all it takes to succeed in medicine. I simply said that it takes a pretty high level of intelligence, extreme work ethic and certain personality traits to make it all the way. Likewise for major success in any field.

There is no talent involved in being average to above average.

And yes median wages haven't gone up as much as they should have. But they still have gone up and it's been fact checked repeatedly that the notion that inflation adjusted wages haven't risen at all is completely false. Healthcare costs are an issue due to administrative burden. College costs are indeed a major issue. Making it free isn't a solution and is a crime to the tax payer.

cool story, i never said they never went up. I said that these expenditures have not kept up with wage growth.
Plus I never said make it free. I said these are the realities people deal with. Yeah, your definition of a crime is very different than mine.

Anyway, you still didn't address my point. Nothing is stopping a single person at a young age from getting a job and/or more skills for upward mobility AND saving/investing all of their excess money along the way. Maybe address the real problem, where people should prepare ahead of time before they're put into a situation where they can't afford a 1k bill?

I would address it if it was a point. You act like most people dont want to do the best for their families. Or are not out there working hard.

The real problem is healthcare costs and education costs and rent/real estate costs are out there eating the middle class.

Instead of accusing the middle class who have been having a rough go of being chain smoking alchoholics who are constantly pregnant who need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, maybe a little more empathy would go a long way in improving the perception of physicans.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Sure, post the link.

This type of bringing ourselves down 20 levels is another reason why we're run over by non-physicians. Go tell a nurse that you don't have to be insanely smart to get through nursing school and they'll report you for harassment. but medicine? pfft, anyone can do it.

Anyway, post the link dude.

I mean I don’t think you have to be that smart to be a nurse either. You don’t have to be above average intelligence to do a lot of things, or there wouldn’t be that many people doing them. It’s not bad to say being a physician doesn’t require you to be a genius, and it certainly doesn’t mean mid levels or nurses can do it. They could if they went to med school and residency though. That’s really the difference. It’s not that we are so much smarter than they are, it’s that we learn a lot more. Knowing more and being smarter are two things people conflate a lot, but they aren’t the same.

 

[Dantrolene FC]

There was a thing on here and reddit somewhere that correlated ACT scores to the MCAT, and the correlation was pretty much the same as the correlation between the MCAT and step 1. The average ACT is a 20, and with that data it would be around a 505 plus or minus. If you read the AAMC data, there really is no difference in success in med school once you get over a 500.

So I mean it really isn’t that the average person couldn’t do it, because clearly they could. It’s that they don’t want to for various reasons. It’s a really long training pipeline that is arduous for many reasons. The hours are long. You see people at their absolute worst. Etc etc.

There are plenty of reasons why not everyone is cut out for medicine, but you don’t have to be a genius—or even above average—to do it.

Major statistical error there you can’t take the average college applicant’s ACT a score, compare it to the average medical school applicant, then give the conclusion that the average med school applicant is equal to the average undergrad applicant.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Major statistical error there you can’t take the average college applicant’s ACT a score, compare it to the average medical school applicant, then give the conclusion that the average med school applicant is equal to the average undergrad applicant.

I’m not. The respondents were med school applicants. So what I’m saying is that the data (which admittedly has a moderate correlation at best) suggests that an applicant who scores average on their ACT will be just fine in med school.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I am showing you that it doesnt take much to get into medical school. The DO average is like ~503 with an SD of 5. Literally just an average MCAT score will do. and complete medical school, last i checked there wasnt a massive amount of attrition in those schools

I think his argument here would be that someone who gets an average mcat is already above average intelligence because they have completed at least most of the premed courses. I still disagree with this because clearly people who did average on college entrance exams are still doing average on the mcat.

 

[Dantrolene FC]

There was a thing on here and reddit somewhere that correlated ACT scores to the MCAT, and the correlation was pretty much the same as the correlation between the MCAT and step 1. The average ACT is a 20, and with that data it would be around a 505 plus or minus. If you read the AAMC data, there really is no difference in success in med school once you get over a 500.

So I mean it really isn’t that the average person couldn’t do it, because clearly they could. It’s that they don’t want to for various reasons. It’s a really long training pipeline that is arduous for many reasons. The hours are long. You see people at their absolute worst. Etc etc.

There are plenty of reasons why not everyone is cut out for medicine, but you don’t have to be a genius—or even above average—to do it.

I misread your most. Sorry I was playing video games online and trying to read this at the same time, haha.

I thought you said the average ACT score is 20 and the average MCAT score is 500, therefore the average person could be a doctor. I didn't see the part about the people taking the MCAT were the ones with the average of 20.

I still don't believe the average person could become a doctor, regardless of their will power, at least not in the traditional 4 year timeframe.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I misread your most. Sorry I was playing video games online and trying to read this at the same time, haha.

I thought you said the average ACT score is 20 and the average MCAT score is 500, therefore the average person could be a doctor. I didn't see the part about the people taking the MCAT were the ones with the average of 20.

I still don't believe the average person could become a doctor, regardless of their will power, at least not in the traditional 4 year timeframe.

Fair enough. I don’t think the average person could become a doctor either, I just don’t think it is because they aren’t smart enough. For full transparency, I will say that I think the average medical student is probably smarter than the average person. But I think that’s because medicine attracts smart people, not because only people with above average intelligence can do it.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

You keep on moving the goal post.

Proven wrong by the statistics provided.


If you look around in any medical school, not everyone is a STEM graduate.
You dont even have to score above average on the MCAT to get into a DO school. 100K people take the test and 60K people literally have scores in the range of obtaining admissions.

This data is old and does not incorporate grade inflation but you get the point.



I am showing you that it doesnt take much to get into medical school. The DO average is like ~503 with an SD of 5. Literally just an average MCAT score will do. and complete medical school, last i checked there wasnt a massive amount of attrition in those schools.


There is no talent involved in being average to above average.

Yeah dude I think you forgot the part that people with a lower MCAT score often have very high GPAs and vice versa. Don't be naïve and delusional.

The average MCAT score is 500, which is among a cohort of people who could survive pre-req classes. The average freshman could maybe pull off a 490. The average DO school MCAT is 504. And okay your biology majors (typical common major) get an average GPA of 3.0. The average DO GPA is ~3.6. And DO schools do tend to carry ~10% attrition rates, a well known fact. You have a very major clear disconnect of what the above-average person is capable of (a 3.0 GPA and 500 MCAT) and what it takes to get into med school.

Along with the other poster, I've tutored students; "premeds" specifically. People who I would classify as being above average intelligence just had no shot at ever performing well in a tough science class, period.

cool story, i never said they never went up. I said that these expenditures have not kept up with wage growth.
Plus I never said make it free. I said these are the realities people deal with. Yeah, your definition of a crime is very different than mine.


I would address it if it was a point. You act like most people dont want to do the best for their families. Or are not out there working hard.



The real problem is healthcare costs and education costs and rent/real estate costs are out there eating the middle class.

Instead of accusing the middle class who have been having a rough go of being chain smoking alchoholics who are constantly pregnant who need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, maybe a little more empathy would go a long way in improving the perception of physicans.

They have not kept up with growth but they also aren't nearly as bad as the left is making it out to be.

College tuition should be in the range of 6-10k/year. The reason it should never be free is because the tax payer shouldn't be footing the bill for useless majors or people who dropout or fail out. That's clear cut and logical.

Fair enough. I don’t think the average person could become a doctor either, I just don’t think it is because they aren’t smart enough. For full transparency, I will say that I think the average medical student is probably smarter than the average person. But I think that’s because medicine attracts smart people, not because only people with above average intelligence can do it.

Good ol, we're all equal argument.

Lol when it comes to elite athletes, do we still say that anyone can be a world class professional athlete through hard work alone? No. Cause it doesn't offend people. We very well know that genetic talent is the #1 reason they got there. When it comes to academics, we dismiss natural ability cause it offends people (and their lack of success). When it comes to looks, we say it doesn't matter - cause it also offends people and the issues it may cause them.

 

[Dantrolene FC]

Fair enough. I don’t think the average person could become a doctor either, I just don’t think it is because they aren’t smart enough. For full transparency, I will say that I think the average medical student is probably smarter than the average person. But I think that’s because medicine attracts smart people, not because only people with above average intelligence can do it.

My view on IQ and innate intelligence is that being smart, or having a high IQ, is a measurement of how fast you can learn. If we were computers, a person with an IQ of 120 would have a faster processor than a person with an IQ of 100.

That’s why the smart kids can study the night before a test in undergrad and make straight A’s while the rest have to study 3 days and only get a B.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

My view on IQ and innate intelligence is that being smart, or having a high IQ, is a measurement of how fast you can learn. If we were computers, a person with an IQ of 120 would have a faster processor than a person with an IQ of 100.

That’s why the smart kids can study the night before a test in undergrad and make straight A’s while the rest have to study 3 days and only get a B.

It goes further than that. Capacity to learn complex information. Ability to retain. Being able to apply. And all of those breakdown into subcategories, hence why some are smart are some subjects and not others.

I don't think IQ is a comprehensive measure of intellect either since we don't even understand the brain that well let alone able to test it.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

EMR is a joke... I don't know how PCP can see 25+ patients in 8 hrs.

That's 20 minutes per patient, most of us have 15 minute appointment slots. The math in that one is easy.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

My view on IQ and innate intelligence is that being smart, or having a high IQ, is a measurement of how fast you can learn. If we were computers, a person with an IQ of 120 would have a faster processor than a person with an IQ of 100.

That’s why the smart kids can study the night before a test in undergrad and make straight A’s while the rest have to study 3 days and only get a B.

I’m not really debating that smarter people learn faster or even that most med students aren’t smarter than the average person. I’m saying you don’t have to be smarter than the average person to me a physician.

 

[deleted480308]

I’m not really debating that smarter people learn faster or even that most med students aren’t smarter than the average person. I’m saying you don’t have to be smarter than the average person to me a physician.

God knows I've met a few people that make me support this claim

 

[Splenda88]

I’m not really debating that smarter people learn faster or even that most med students aren’t smarter than the average person. I’m saying you don’t have to be smarter than the average person to me a physician.

You do. You guys must have attended a top 20 undergrad.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Oh please. It doesnt require much more than average intelligence to get a 500 on the MCAT.
70% of high school graduates enroll in college, 60% of those graduate within 6 years. so 35% of the population. The average GPA is 3.1.

It may be shocking to you but everyone does not want to be a doctor. Plenty of intelligent people in all sorts of fields including blue collar work. I know this because my family, their friends were all blue collar. I worked blue collar jobs.

Your post is literally an example of unfounded arrogance that the general public has associated with physicians.

And instead of thinking , hmm 60% of ALL americans cant afford a 1000 dollar unexpected bill you go on some tangent of personal responsibility, all the while ignoring the fact that healthcare costs, college costs and housing costs have skyrocketed and not kept up with wage growth. Maybe , just maybe, if a majority of people are having difficulty you should think that there is something systematically wrong with our society that is placing people in that situation.

I dont necessarily agree that its society's fault that nearly half of Americans cant come up with $400. I'm constantly amazed at how many people are just plain terrible with managing money. This transcends all social ranks. My sister in law with a Masters and her husband with a PhD, make poor decisions and my wife and I have had to bail them out a couple times. Listen to Dave Ramsey a fewtimes on the radio and you will see. I know doctors who cant retire after working for 45 years.
Secondly, one of the reasons our standard of living has dropped is because our Fed devalues the value of the dollar,( so our companies can compete in our global trade market), at a rate much higher than wages rise, so most of us cant keep up with our purchasing power with respect to food, housing, medicine and education.
My son, divorced with 2 children, a college grad from a catholic university, drives a 7 axle water truck for a driller. He pays child support, .manages his car and apartment, cell, everything, and made close to 90k, last yr.He has put 30k in the bank over the last 2 yrs.
Get out of debt, live beneath your means, and budget. It's not hard, you do need some discipline. Problem is, many people lack that. Look at the BMI and rapid rise in fatty liver disease,(NAFLD). You dont need to graduate from Harvard to get your CDL and drive a truck.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

I’m not really debating that smarter people learn faster or even that most med students aren’t smarter than the average person. I’m saying you don’t have to be smarter than the average person to me a physician.

And I'm stating that being even above-average isn't sufficient. What we consider completely unintelligent is the average person and the median point in society. You just show lack of insight into reality.

I dont necessarily agree that its society's fault that nearly half of Americans cant come up with $400. I'm constantly amazed at how many people are just plain terrible with managing money. This transcends all social ranks. My sister in law with a Masters and her husband with a PhD, make poor decisions and my wife and I have had to bail them out a couple times. Listen to Dave Ramsey a fewtimes on the radio and you will see. I know doctors who cant retire after working for 45 years.
Secondly, one of the reasons our standard of living has dropped is because our Fed devalues the value of the dollar,( so our companies can compete in our global trade market), at a rate much higher than wages rise, so most of us cant keep up with our purchasing power with respect to food, housing, medicine and education.
My son, divorced with 2 children, a college grad from a catholic university, drives a 7 axle water truck for a driller. He pays child support, .manages his car and apartment, cell, everything, and made close to 90k, last yr.He has put 30k in the bank over the last 2 yrs.
Get out of debt, live beneath your means, and budget. It's not hard, you do need some discipline. Problem is, many people lack that. Look at the BMI and rapid rise in fatty liver disease,(NAFLD). You dont need to graduate from Harvard to get your CDL and drive a truck.

The excuse will be that it's a "coping mechanism" of stress to go and eat super unhealthy, never exercise and spend all your money without ever saving.

 

[Dantrolene FC]

Think about how dumb the average person is. Half of people are dumber than that.

 

[Neopolymath]

@libertyyne

I always laugh at these threads who assume that if you are a doc, you could have been successful making 300k+/yr in most professions...

I have 2 engineer (software and civil) friends who could have gotten to med school had they pursued a career in medicine... The one that is a software engineer is doing good (~130k/yr) after being a software engineer for close to 10 yrs. The civil engineer one is still making <90k/yr and he also has been an engineer for 10 yrs.

They both get terrified when economists are talking about recession.

Yes. If old docs start saying you shouldn't do medicine and that you should "just do business" stop listening to their advise on everything but medicine. They have no clue.

 

[Splenda88]

Think about how dumb the average person is. Half of people are dumber than that.

I think @libertyyne and @Matthew9Thirtyfive wildly overestimate the intelligence of the average individual...

 

[kb1900]

I think @libertyyne and @Matthew9Thirtyfive wildly overestimate the intelligence of the average individual...

Think about how dumb the average person is. Half of people are dumber than that.

I don’t honestly care how dumb someone is at baseline...in my experience, most people are teachable. It’s not like doing questions or flash cards just “doesn’t work” or something. Work in = results out and USMLE/mcat/premed reqs are the epitome of that.

Most of the time there is a lack of underlying education, discipline, focus...all of which are modifiable in my experience.


spending a couple years tutoring made it pretty clear that competition is not so bad that it just bars people from medicine. Anyone that wants to be in this profession can still attain it as long as they don’t mess up their gpa or criminal record. After 2 years, I could practically garuntee someone an A in their gen chem, biochem and Orgo classes in undergrad if they adhered to what I said. Nobody was “too dumb”, but lots of people are lazy orhaven’t pushed themselves in the past.


having said that, I’ve definitely met patients who I suspect have had very long standing subclinical vascular dementia just slowly eating away their cognitive abilities

 

[Angus Avagadro]

having said that, I’ve definitely met patients who I suspect have had very long standing subclinical vascular dementia just slowly eating away their cognitive abilities.

Yes, we are called Faculty!🙂

 

[kb1900]

having said that, I’ve definitely met patients who I suspect have had very long standing subclinical vascular dementia just slowly eating away their cognitive abilities.

Yes, we are called Faculty!🙂

Lmao thank you for the laugh

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You do. You guys must have attended a top 20 undergrad.

I actually got my degree online from a tiny, unknown school while on active duty.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I think @libertyyne and @Matthew9Thirtyfive wildly overestimate the intelligence of the average individual...

If telling yourself that going to med school in and of itself means you’re smarter than the average person makes you feel better, then have at it. I do find it interesting that the notion that you don’t have to be above average intelligence to be a physician seems to really bother some on this thread.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

And I'm stating that being even above-average isn't sufficient. What we consider completely unintelligent is the average person and the median point in society. You just show lack of insight into reality.

Are you incapable of disagreement without ad hominems and insults? It’s kind of telling that anyone who disagrees with you gets insulted and talked down to. Are you seriously telling me that you think everyone who is successfully completing or who has successfully completed medical school is a genius?

 

[slowthai]

@libertyyne

I always laugh at these threads who assume that if you are a doc, you could have been successful making 300k+/yr in most professions...

It's amazing. Like I really would've been a regular wolf of Wall Street if I hadn't gone into medicine. I'm just that awesome, guys.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Are you incapable of disagreement without ad hominems and insults? It’s kind of telling that anyone who disagrees with you gets insulted and talked down to. Are you seriously telling me that you think everyone who is successfully completing or who has successfully completed medical school is a genius?

You dont have to be a genius. If not an elite student, you must at least like science and have a gritty personality. Most importantly, you have to embrace hard work. Face it, med school is hard. If not academically for some, the hours and sleep deprivation are. I know some very smart people who dont do " Hard".
Dogging the avg american saying they aren't smart enough to be a Dr is not being pragmatic, it's being elitist. Patients wonder why some doctors are tone deaf to their situation and have such massive egos in a profession that humbles all but the megalomaniacs.

 

[libertyyne]

This study was only conducted in males and it was from 92-94 where MCATs actually correlated with IQ. the Average was 101 with SD of 15 I believe.

So the ~lower quartile of your class is literally Average. Roughly 50% of your class is below "Above average"

Roughly 40% of the american population has the "Talent" to be in medical school. This was before the proliferation of schools with lower MCAT averages.


I am not saying there arent smart people in medicine. There are many, but this idea that just because you are a physician you are a genius is ludicrous. And having average intelligence does not preclude you from becoming a physician. As someone mentioned above there are many things like grit/dedication, a commitment to training a good chunk of your life, and the ability to delay gratification for a long time.

No one is saying NPs populations look exactly the same, heck there are barely any standards to get into an NP school , and no required weeding out exams that are as standardized as Steps.

 

[libertyyne]

Also just for giggles this was published in BMJ comparing anasthesologists and Orthopeadic surgeons. Not sure how serious they were in taking the test.

 

[Splenda88]

Also just for giggles this was published in BMJ comparing anasthesologists and Orthopeadic surgeons. Not sure how serious they were in taking the test.
View attachment 297489

This post is a joke...

 

[libertyyne]

This post is a joke...

Orthopaedic surgeons: as strong as an ox and almost twice as clever? Multicentre prospective comparative study

Objective To compare the intelligence and grip strength of orthopaedic surgeons and anaesthetists. Design Multicentre prospective comparative study. Setting Three UK district general hospitals in 2011. Participants 36 male orthopaedic surgeons and 40 male anaesthetists at consultant or...

www.bmj.com

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

Orthopaedic surgeons: as strong as an ox and almost twice as clever? Multicentre prospective comparative study

Objective To compare the intelligence and grip strength of orthopaedic surgeons and anaesthetists. Design Multicentre prospective comparative study. Setting Three UK district general hospitals in 2011. Participants 36 male orthopaedic surgeons and 40 male anaesthetists at consultant or...

www.bmj.com

The BMJ publishes joke articles every Christmas lol

 

[libertyyne]

The BMJ publishes joke articles every Christmas lol

Joke as in made up data or joke as in no real scientific purpose ?
I’m glad I quoted it by saying just for giggles.

 

[Ho0v-man]

You keep on moving the goal post.

Proven wrong by the statistics provided.


If you look around in any medical school, not everyone is a STEM graduate.
You dont even have to score above average on the MCAT to get into a DO school. 100K people take the test and 60K people literally have scores in the range of obtaining admissions.
View attachment 297416
This data is old and does not incorporate grade inflation but you get the point.


I am showing you that it doesnt take much to get into medical school. The DO average is like ~503 with an SD of 5. Literally just an average MCAT score will do. and complete medical school, last i checked there wasnt a massive amount of attrition in those schools.


There is no talent involved in being average to above average.


cool story, i never said they never went up. I said that these expenditures have not kept up with wage growth.
Plus I never said make it free. I said these are the realities people deal with. Yeah, your definition of a crime is very different than mine. View attachment 297419


I would address it if it was a point. You act like most people dont want to do the best for their families. Or are not out there working hard.
View attachment 297424
View attachment 297425

The real problem is healthcare costs and education costs and rent/real estate costs are out there eating the middle class.

Instead of accusing the middle class who have been having a rough go of being chain smoking alchoholics who are constantly pregnant who need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, maybe a little more empathy would go a long way in improving the perception of physicans.

I agree with your points of not putting ourselves on pedestals and about empathy. But A LOT of people never even get to the mcat bc the pre reqs weed them out. You’ve expect the vast majority of people who sit for the mcat have gotten through and have a gpa in range for acceptance to medical school. So for the most part, wouldn’t the folks taking the mcat already be pretty high-performing students? A 50th percentile score among this group is something that most people can’t do.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Joke as in made up data or joke as in no real scientific purpose ?
I’m glad I quoted it by saying just for giggles.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

The BMJ publishes joke articles every Christmas lol

I didnt see the bench press to body weight ratio in the article. That would have made the difference to me.

 

[Thesimplelifeofamyloid]

Wow, this thread is the mess. Ultimately, you guys could sit here and try to sift through data and measurements that aren't that great of measurements (IQ, really?) to begin with, but here's the truth: It is never an all things equal battle. There's always so many different variables in play here. I've have had students that I couldn't even get to show up to class no matter how much I've worked with them. Could of they done well if they did, maybe? But the point is they didn't for a wide range of reasons. You cannot bring people down to a single measurement. Everything, including medicine, engineering,
even professional athletics you name it, requires a unique set of skill and experiences based both in genetics and in environmental factors.

 

[Dantrolene FC]

Guys, we're really failing to live up to the title of this thread: "Physicians need to have better PR campaign..."

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

I agree with your points of not putting ourselves on pedestals and about empathy. But A LOT of people never even get to the mcat bc the pre reqs weed them out. You’ve expect the vast majority of people who sit for the mcat have gotten through and have a gpa in range for acceptance to medical school. So for the most part, wouldn’t the folks taking the mcat already be pretty high-performing students? A 50th percentile score among this group is something that most people can’t do.

They don't get it. Some people think that genetic talent is irrelevant in academic (and looks, just as an add-on point) success.

Once again, no one is offended when we say that athletics needs major talent. It's only when we talk about things that affect everyone (brains and looks) that people get offended and want to dismiss success to being due to opportunity and work ethic.

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

I agree with your points of not putting ourselves on pedestals and about empathy. But A LOT of people never even get to the mcat bc the pre reqs weed them out. You’ve expect the vast majority of people who sit for the mcat have gotten through and have a gpa in range for acceptance to medical school. So for the most part, wouldn’t the folks taking the mcat already be pretty high-performing students? A 50th percentile score among this group is something that most people can’t do.

GPA is more of a sign of hard work and consistency though. I bet there are a ton of smart, lazy students who decide that it isn’t worth it halfway through and don’t take the MCAT.

 

[Dantrolene FC]

GPA is more of a sign of hard work and consistency though. I bet there are a ton of smart, lazy students who decide that it isn’t worth it halfway through and don’t take the MCAT.

There's too many variables with GPA. For one, it's not standardized across the different universities. Second, there's other variables such as field of study, full-time while working, full-time while not working, part-time while working, part-time while not working, etc.

 

[Ho0v-man]

GPA is more of a sign of hard work and consistency though. I bet there are a ton of smart, lazy students who decide that it isn’t worth it halfway through and don’t take the MCAT.

Either way, these people still fall into the category of unable to hit 50th percentile. A smart but lazy student would still struggle if they don’t feel like cracking open those prep books.

 

[Ho0v-man]

They don't get it. Some people think that genetic talent is irrelevant in academic (and looks, just as an add-on point) success.

Once again, no one is offended when we say that athletics needs major talent. It's only when we talk about things that affect everyone (brains and looks) that people get offended and want to dismiss success to being due to opportunity and work ethic.

Whoa, let’s not be hasty here. I never had the opportunity to be good looking but one day I will!

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

GPA is more of a sign of hard work and consistency though. I bet there are a ton of smart, lazy students who decide that it isn’t worth it halfway through and don’t take the MCAT.

And there are lots of not so smart people who study insanely hard and still don't do well. Kind of interesting we ignore that large population of people (which make up a huge portion of colleges classes) cause it fits the "nurture is everything" narrative 🙂

Whoa, let’s not be hasty here. I never had the opportunity to be good looking but one day I will!

It's always those two things. Brains and looks. Everything else like athletics, artists, actors etc. we have 0 problem admitting that talent plays a huge role.

 

[Splenda88]

Lol...

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

View attachment 297549

Lol...

Tbf they have those shirts advertised on FB all the time with whatever random thing you talk about. I constantly get them for Navy stuff and med student ****.

 

[CidHighwind]

Shows like House MD probably didn’t help the physician’s image.

The sad part is when you start doing clinicals and realize that there are a lot of jerk attendings like House, except not as witty or good at their job.