I guess I am shielded from these attending... The vast majority of attendings I have worked with are cool individuals.
Physicians need to have better PR campaign...
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CidHighwind
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Agree with the people saying you don’t have to be a genius to be a doctor. I went to a very good undergrad and am at a really good medical school. Would say that on average, the average person in ugrad was probably more intelligent than in medical school, while the people in med school are more “straight laced”. Will also say that in ugrad, most people had a MUCH HIGHER EQ than many of my classmates now. Honestly to get into medicine you either need to be smart (a lot of people usually just studied a few days before the exam in college and aced it) or rich (have tutors help you, get access to old tests, get to go on mission trips to impress Adcoms, etc).
No one said you have to be a genius in order to become a doctor, but saying the average individual (IQ 100) can become a physician is hard to believe.
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average IQ is 100 but with a SD of 15. Thats why they call Average IQ between 90-109. The study I linked above clearly demonstrates that there are many people probably close to a quartile in medical school with that IQ. This was before the proliferation of medical schools with lower admission standards too.
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Yeah, not “average average”, but you definitely don’t need to have a 4.0 and score in the 80th+ percentile on the MCAT to get in either. Honestly med school was easier than undergrad in terms of actual concepts. You just had more things you had to study and clinicals to worry about.
Some problem attendings get barred from being on the teaching services if they constantly get negative feedback. Some don’t because they’ve been there forever. It’s really about the luck of the draw. The only thing that really bugs me are the residents that are jerks. Of course, some places the residents aren’t really “above” you while other services you only interact with residents.
The average MCAT for applicants who got accepted to both MD/DO is higher than it was 10+ or 20+ years ago.
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Yes and no. MD averages have remained the same or increased but DO schools have expanded, so they constitute a larger chunk of people going in now. Considering that half the class is below 504, with a 16% being below 499.
This doesnt even incorporate Carribean grads that make it etc.
There is nothing wrong with it as long as people are able to pass boards and find spots to practice.
But lets not act that people of average intelligence could not complete medical school. Especially in light of the evidence. Medical school is mostly about rote memorization and regurgitation, you dont need an IQ of 130 to perform that.
I will say that what sets apart many of my classmates was the level of maturity they had for their age. You kinda have to have your **** together to get into and complete medical school. I didnt see this in most of the UG students I was with.
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I get it. You want to feel like what you did is something most people couldn’t do. That’s probably true, but I don’t think it’s because the average person is not smart enough. There are a multitude of reasons most people can’t or won’t do it.
And actually, @MedicineZ0Z did say that even an above average intelligence isn’t enough. Which is ludicrous.
Lol...
I am saying that based on my anecdotal experience tutoring CC college students in intermediate algebra, college algebra, introductory chemistry and procalc (drug calculation)... and based how hard it was for me to get a decent score in the MCAT. I just can't imagine how these students can get 22+ MCAT. One of them wanted to pursue medicine after nursing and took the MCAT 3 times and her highest score was 20 and she is in nursing leadership right now after getting MBA.
I could always be wrong... or maybe these students had a hard time with Math and Chemistry...
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yeah, i went to a CC, and tutored there as well, and there were a few that actually ended up in medicine.
a 22 is a 32nd percentile ,and a 496 is that, many people get in with those scores, and pass just fine.
There is actual evidence stating the opposite of what you are claiming, yet you want to stick with that anecdote. Literal evidence stating that there was a large chunk of people with average intelligence . In an era when it was more difficult to get into medical school.
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MD averages have absolutely gone up. Look at this thread from 2004
USNews Rankings for 2005 Average MCAT Scores
Schools with 11+ MCAT Scores: School / State / Mean Overall MCAT Baylor College of Medicine TX 11.2 Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons NY 11.7 Cornell University (Weill) NY 11.3 Duke University NC 11.9 Harvard University MA 11.3 Johns Hopkins University MD 11...
forums.studentdoctor.net
The average for most top schools in each section was between 11 and 11.5 which extrapolated would be a 33-34.5
Those schools today? The average at Stanford is a 520 which correlates to a 37 (there average was 11.2 > ~33.6). Harvard is a 518 which correlates to a 36 (there average was 11.3 > ~33.9) That's 2 examples, you can check out the rest of the thread and compare to today numbers
CidHighwind
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Yeah, IMO the people getting a PhD in Stem fields are probably more “intelligent” than those getting an MD. If only being a physician didn’t pay so well...
That does not seem to be the case based on that University of Wisconsin research...
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yes, because comparing the top echelon of admissions is representative proof of everything.MD averages have absolutely gone up. Look at this thread from 2004
USNews Rankings for 2005 Average MCAT Scores
Schools with 11+ MCAT Scores: School / State / Mean Overall MCAT Baylor College of Medicine TX 11.2 Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons NY 11.7 Cornell University (Weill) NY 11.3 Duke University NC 11.9 Harvard University MA 11.3 Johns Hopkins University MD 11...
The average for most top schools in each section was between 11 and 11.5 which extrapolated would be a 33-34.5
Those schools today? The average at Stanford is a 520 which correlates to a 37 (there average was 11.2 > ~33.6). Harvard is a 518 which correlates to a 36 (there average was 11.3 > ~33.9) That's 2 examples, you can check out the rest of the thread and compare to today numbers
The average for all matiriculants to MD schools is 511~ wish is roughly 83rd percentile. If you look at data from 2001-2012 the average matriculant MCAT was ..... ~31.2 which is
you guessed it... 83rd percentile. There are other factors to consider, considering each year people have better resources which lead to increased prep to where the median of total test takers goes up.
But all of this is beyond the point when there is actual IQ data disproving people who claim that a person of average intelligence cant complete medical school.
The average MCAT has gone up even for DO school despite their huge expansion...MD averages have absolutely gone up. Look at this thread from 2004
USNews Rankings for 2005 Average MCAT Scores
Schools with 11+ MCAT Scores: School / State / Mean Overall MCAT Baylor College of Medicine TX 11.2 Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons NY 11.7 Cornell University (Weill) NY 11.3 Duke University NC 11.9 Harvard University MA 11.3 Johns Hopkins University MD 11...
The average for most top schools in each section was between 11 and 11.5 which extrapolated would be a 33-34.5
Those schools today? The average at Stanford is a 520 which correlates to a 37 (there average was 11.2 > ~33.6). Harvard is a 518 which correlates to a 36 (there average was 11.3 > ~33.9) That's 2 examples, you can check out the rest of the thread and compare to today numbers
I think a 22 was a 28th percentile, and a 494 now. You are talking about people <5% of med students with extenuating circumstances + (some URM and people in Puerto Rican schools)
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not really.
There are no osteopathic schools in PR nor any HBCUs.
More to the point, it just prooves that even with low stats people get accepted and complete medical school.
Plus the MCAT is not an intelligence test anymore , hasnt been for a long while.
The raw data for physician IQs still stands.
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Just because a select few people with an IQ of 100 become doctors doesn't mean that anyone with an IQ of a 100 can become doctors. This is a gross misrepresentation of the data. There will always be outliers, you can't make your case based on them.
Please don't act like people with an IQ of 100 make up even a tiny proportion of medical school classes. The graph here has the bottom 10 percentile at like a 107 IQ. These sub 110 students are very rare and likely don't represent your typical person with an IQ of 100-110. Simply put IQ isn't a perfect indicator, and the people with low IQs who pass medical school likely are significantly different than if we were to pull 10 random people with the same IQ from the population. I have worked with and tutored students across the spectrum of intelligence and work ethic, and I have seen some incredibly hard working and great people who just could not keep up in college or medical school. These students were by all regards above average in many regards, but just weren't able to grasp the complex material that we learn. It is laughable to think that you could pull anyone from the average population and expect them not to fail out of medical school. The real problem is that people here (myself included) have no idea how different the average American is from us. We live in big cities, surrounded by the smartest people in the world, and even the patients we interact with tend to not be representative of the greater population. Don't let yourself get tricked into thinking because the people you know might be able to handle medical school, that somehow anyone could do it. When you've actually met "average americans" you'll realize very quickly that 90% could never even pass medical school. I know countless people who couldn't even pass the lowest levels of certication (CNA, vet techs, dental hygienists, radiology technicians, associate degrees) after trying multiple times. So if some average americans can't complete some of the most basic degree programs or certifications, what in the world would make you think the average person could complete one of the fastest paced and most complex doctorate programs?
You need a serious reality check if you think that even 75% of the general population could handle the rigors and complexity of medical school and residency. The people you imagine as "average" are no where near the average. The average reading level in America is around the 6th grade, how TF do you think they will ever be able to read robbins or even first aid?
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Also let's stop using the comparison point of the absolutely worst applicants getting into the lowest tier DO schools in the country to represent medical school success. Average MD Stats right now are around 512/3.8
The 90%+ pass rate at US MD schools is arguably too high. Even at my MD school, they let dangerously incompetent students through every single year as they refuse to fail pretty much anyone for academic reasons. They will curve and curve and curve and remediate no matter how unqualified the students are. Literally only Step 1/2 is failing out students for academics, but any professionalism issue is an automatic career-ender, and is the only reason students get kicked out by the school.
The 90%+ pass rate at US MD schools is arguably too high. Even at my MD school, they let dangerously incompetent students through every single year as they refuse to fail pretty much anyone for academic reasons. They will curve and curve and curve and remediate no matter how unqualified the students are. Literally only Step 1/2 is failing out students for academics, but any professionalism issue is an automatic career-ender, and is the only reason students get kicked out by the school.
That is what I was saying... Someone who got a MBA and is in nursing leadership is someone with an average IQ to most people's standard. How come that person was able to do well in nursing and yet had a hard time to break >20 in the MCAT after taking 3 times and studied hard for it?
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Literally the population distribution of 105+ IQ is ~40% . SO 40 % of the population would be capable of having the "talent" required.
You are misrepresenting the argument. It is not that everyone can become a doctor, there are many hinderances in doing so including primary education, college completion, criminal records, and ability to actually go to and pay for medical school. some that you have even listed, Even desire to become a doctor. The point was that 40% of people have the raw intelligence "talent" .
That was the point. You dont need raw intelligence of genius level to become a physician. There are, and continue to be many physicians who practice of average intelligence.
Wrong. 22 =32nd percentile. but still a 495.
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Also just so you don't think that I am cherry picking that only doctors need to be smart, I will say the same thing about accounting, engineering, and hard science PhDs, etc.. These are freaking hard and complicated fields that the average American can not just simply waltz into. Many people can complete these fields, but to act like anyone can complete a PhD in physics or even get a degree in electrical engineering is blatantly false. Hell even the average college student struggles to complete an engineering degree.
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If you want to trade anecdotes, my best friend got into med school with a 496 and an average gpa. She is killing it in med school. She works really hard. Otherwise, see @libertyyne’s post.
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I have a degree in math. You have to be significantly smarter to get a PhD in math than to get a medical degree, which is part of the reason I’m in med school and not getting my math PhD. Having to be smart to get a hard science or math PhD doesn’t really have any bearing on med school.
No one is saying a medical degree is the most difficult degree to get but you guys are saying the average American (IQ 100) can get into med school. I don't buy that.
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Not that I could ever prove this, but I bet the pass rate for medical school by IQ would look something like this if you picked random people from the population. Numbers aren't exact, but the trend would probably be similar:
>130: 90%+ Pass rate
120-130: 80% Pass Rate
110-120: 50% Pass Rate
100-110: 20% Pass Rate
<100: <2% Pass Rate
>130: 90%+ Pass rate
120-130: 80% Pass Rate
110-120: 50% Pass Rate
100-110: 20% Pass Rate
<100: <2% Pass Rate
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Literally greater than 10% of medical Doctors had sub 110 IQ. That falls within the average range.
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still continues to fail 3+ pages later...
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this is absolutey ludicris. Please stop manufacturing made up data. Medical school is much more about effort than it is about raw brain power. 50% of physicians in the university of wisconsin study had an IQ less than 120.
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It is for sure more-so about effort, but you also need the intellectual baseline horsepower to succeed. Without that, all the effort in the world will never allow you to understand the complex topics necessary to pass medical school.
My god, some people went through all of college without ever actually understanding what an action potential is, you seriously think the average american could understand cardiac physiology or pharmacology? That's absurd.
That's above average IQ... That is almost standard deviation above average, which put most these medical professionals at 70th+ percentile... compared to the average Joe
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Literally 50% of physicians in the university of wisonsin study had IQs less than 120.
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I literally posted the definition of an Average IQ 90-110. The standard deviation of iq is 15 with median of 100.
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This isn't like the USMLE where a 225 = a 230 = a 235
An IQ of 90, 100, and 110 are worlds apart.
Janitor IQ is 92
Finance is 109
These are not the same
That is a big range man... 65th+(110) percentile is a world apart from 25th percentile (90)
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Yet, even looking at the university of wisconsin study 105+ IQs consittute ~40 of the population.
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Yes, thats how standard deviations work, I'm not sure what your point is...
At best, you're saying that only 40% of the population could pass med school.
But lets be real, what percentage of random Americans with an IQ of 105 could pass medical school??? Seriously, what do you think it would be? These are outliers, few and far between, not the norm
The sample was not the US population... The sample was "professions"
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So you’re saying the average doctor is well above average. Looks like this argument is over.
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Literally what i have been screaming about for the last 10 pages.
I dont know the percent that could, and neither do you. It provides a baseline for what is necessary. So far from any raw talent that is hard to find in the general population.
Standard error is ~3 to 7 points depending on the test.
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not really. I literally qouted this above.
Its funny to see everyone lose their minds over being told that 40% of americans have the raw mental power to do their job.
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Um they do. Every year. There is literally data showing it, you’re just choosing to ignore it.
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I can't fathom the flagrant disregard from reality of anyone making the claim that "The average American could pass medical school and be a doctor". This is a misinformed, ignorant, and non-data-backed opinion. This belief just exemplifies how out of touch one can be with the average american.
To say any of the following is equally misinformed, ignorant, and out of touch.
"The average american could be a doctor"
"The average american could be a rocket scientist"
"The average american could be a PhD"
"The average american could be an accountant"
"The average american could be an engineer"
"The average american could be a CFO"
The average American doesn't even have a college degree
The average American reads at a 6th grade level
The average American could not pass medical school
While some, average Americans, may be able to succeed in any of these fields, it would be the exception rather than the rule.
To say any of the following is equally misinformed, ignorant, and out of touch.
"The average american could be a doctor"
"The average american could be a rocket scientist"
"The average american could be a PhD"
"The average american could be an accountant"
"The average american could be an engineer"
"The average american could be a CFO"
The average American doesn't even have a college degree
The average American reads at a 6th grade level
The average American could not pass medical school
While some, average Americans, may be able to succeed in any of these fields, it would be the exception rather than the rule.
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that Sample actually had a higher average IQ, but the IQ 100 remains standard throughout. But nice try.
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40% of americans have the IQ to be able to practice medicine.
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It’s almost entertaining, but I kind of feel bad that so many people have themselves so wrapped up in being smarter than other people that even the very idea that other Med students and doctors might be of average intelligence threatens their own ego.
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There are so many logical errors here, I don’t even know where to start.
These verbal descriptors are bogus... 90 IQ is miles apart from 109 IQ
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This whole argument is equivalent to saying the average person could be an MLB player if they put in enough effort.
I played baseball through high school and I can tell you no matter how much effort I put in, I wouldn’t even be able to play at a division 2 school. And I considered myself to be an average high school baseball player.
The average MLB player is 207 lbs which is probably close to the average American.
I played baseball through high school and I can tell you no matter how much effort I put in, I wouldn’t even be able to play at a division 2 school. And I considered myself to be an average high school baseball player.
The average MLB player is 207 lbs which is probably close to the average American.
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Lol what? They are not even remotely the same.
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