Planning a transfer

[Qpworueury]

Hi everyone,

I unexpectedly matched to a residency that I'm not very fond with. I'm planning to transfer as soon as my match agreement allows me to approximately 45 days after the start date. I'm just trying to plan ahead and figure out what exactly I need in order to jump on any open spots that are available. Right now I figured that I would need at the minimum the following:

1) CV
2) Steps scores
3) Cover letter

What other documents do programs ask for when initiating the transfer process. I recognize that a spot may not be right open 45 days into the year, however I want to be ready as open spots Ican appear very quickly from watching this past year. Any information from people that have transferred from other residencies and have gone through this process within the same speciality would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

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[Dr. Anonymouss]

Serious question, why would you apply to and rank a program that you ultimately did not want to match at?

 

[Qpworueury]

Serious question, why would you apply to and rank a program that you ultimately did not want to match at?

I didn't think I would fall this low on my rank list. And I guess having a job is better than not having a job. I just have to move pieces of this in the background without my current program knowing. My plan is to have the transfer process complete (or as much as possible) than notify my current program, then leave.

 

[Smurfette]

OK, so to help others out, this is the "sent email to my PD accidentally" poster from a few months ago.
To summarize, they sent an email to their PD that listed all the reasons they hated the program, and then asked for advice from SDN and made a series of choices that made things worse. States they are a PGY prelim/TY resident currently in good standing and start their advanced program in July.

Let's just say that:
1. The new "open spot" program would likely want to hear from both your intern year PD (who in this case is aware of the drama with the PGY2 program and had to get involved when you didn't respond in a timely fashion) as well as the PGY2 PD that you have no major issues. It is not realistic to think you can stealth your way into a new program easily and just surprise the other one that you're leaving. It's theoretically possible, but unlikely.
2. PGY2 program is already going to be watching you, given the prior drama.
3. PGY2 and intern PDs are likely to mention drama if asked by new PD about you. Most PDs would have concerns about you based on what happened, if it occurred as described.
4. If there are no open spots or you have no success finding a program to accept you, what is your plan B? If the answer is not "suck it up and finish out the year", you need to be prepared to do a different field or risk not completing a residency. You can't afford to be picky.

 

[Qpworueury]

OK, so to help others out, this is the "sent email to my PD accidentally" poster from a few months ago.
To summarize, they sent an email to their PD that listed all the reasons they hated the program, and then asked for advice from SDN and made a series of choices that made things worse. States they are a PGY prelim/TY resident currently in good standing and start their advanced program in July.

Let's just say that:
1. The new "open spot" program would likely want to hear from both your intern year PD (who in this case is aware of the drama with the PGY2 program and had to get involved when you didn't respond in a timely fashion) as well as the PGY2 PD that you have no major issues. It is not realistic to think you can stealth your way into a new program easily and just surprise the other one that you're leaving. It's theoretically possible, but unlikely.
2. PGY2 program is already going to be watching you, given the prior drama.
3. PGY2 and intern PDs are likely to mention drama if asked by new PD about you. Most PDs would have concerns about you based on what happened, if it occurred as described.
4. If there are no open spots or you have no success finding a program to accept you, what is your plan B? If the answer is not "suck it up and finish out the year", you need to be prepared to do a different field or risk not completing a residency. You can't afford to be picky.

I've been on good terms with my current program. Although not perfect, I think they would have no issue writing a positive recommendation or putting in a good word if I came up with a good story. The program I'm going into, not so much but I've successfully onboarded. I'm planning on trying to justify the transfer on having a family member or my SO in that area wherever it ended up being. I've also built up my research profile during that time

I've heard programs with open spots are very desperate to fill and they might be flexible on the process in wanting to hear from PDs. I'm hoping I can just send them my CV and a solid reason for moving and that would be enough . If I can figure out what documents I need to have ready when that spot opens, I can be the first to apply. Odds I'll be competing with internal candidates and hence have to be ready

 

[bob12364747474]

The goat returns

 

[LunaOri]

I've been on good terms with my current program. Although not perfect, I think they would have no issue writing a positive recommendation or putting in a good word if I came up with a good story. The program I'm going into, not so much but I've successfully onboarded. I'm planning on trying to justify the transfer on having a family member or my SO in that area wherever it ended up being. I've also built up my research profile during that time

I've heard programs with open spots are very desperate to fill and they might be flexible on the process in wanting to hear from PDs. I'm hoping I can just send them my CV and a solid reason for moving and that would be enough . If I can figure out what documents I need to have ready when that spot opens, I can be the first to apply. Odds I'll be competing with internal candidates and hence have to be ready

So, in your previous post you describe telling multiple lies; you were advised that lying was a bad thing to do, and now you are back here planning to tell more lies? Please stop!!!

 

[Qpworueury]

So, in your previous post you describe telling multiple lies; you were advised that lying was a bad thing to do, and now you are back here planning to tell more lies? Please stop!!!

I'm not lying here. Its more so not sharing information until I'm ready

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

I'm planning on trying to justify the transfer on having a family member or my SO in that area wherever it ended up being.

This is lying. I would not hire you.

 

[guytakingboards]

I've been on good terms with my current program. Although not perfect, I think they would have no issue writing a positive recommendation or putting in a good word if I came up with a good story. The program I'm going into, not so much but I've successfully onboarded. I'm planning on trying to justify the transfer on having a family member or my SO in that area wherever it ended up being. I've also built up my research profile during that time

I've heard programs with open spots are very desperate to fill and they might be flexible on the process in wanting to hear from PDs. I'm hoping I can just send them my CV and a solid reason for moving and that would be enough . If I can figure out what documents I need to have ready when that spot opens, I can be the first to apply. Odds I'll be competing with internal candidates and hence have to be ready

So basically you learned nothing from your last incident.

Just to give you some knowledge/perspective, once you start at your current advanced program they will be contacted for a reference til the end of time. E.g. trying to transfer: they get contacted. Applying for fellowship: they get contacted. Applying for a medical license: they get contacted. Applying for a job: they get contacted.

What I worry for you is that you are basically establishing you lied to their face all those months ago, that you aren't really giving them a chance. And that all those ****ty feelings the PD and chair had back then will rise back up to the surface. Then you've got a big freaking problem cuz if they choose to be petty they have ample opportunity to do so (see above).

And re: if your intern year PD will give you a good reference...however you performed clinically is one thing but your prior story was so outlandish I would be shocked if they didn't mention it to potential transfer programs.

 

[Esmolol]

OP - you're going to make national news one day...

 

[Qpworueury]

This is lying. I would not hire you.

It's not lying. I have some very legitimate reasons for trying to leave. Something it's all about how you present something.

So basically you learned nothing from your last incident.

Just to give you some knowledge/perspective, once you start at your current advanced program they will be contacted for a reference til the end of time. E.g. trying to transfer: they get contacted. Applying for fellowship: they get contacted. Applying for a medical license: they get contacted. Applying for a job: they get contacted.

What I worry for you is that you are basically establishing you lied to their face all those months, that you aren't really giving them a chance and that all those ****ty feelings the PD and chair had back then will rise back up to the surface. Then you've got a big freaking problem cuz if they choose to be petty they have ample opportunity to do see (see above).

And re: if your intern year PD will give you a good reference...however you performed clinically is one thing but your prior story was so outlandish I would be shocked if they didn't mention it to potential transfer programs.

I hear all of that. I doubt there will be an open spot 45 days into the year. A year down the line? Very possible. March 2024 is a far distance from end of 2022 anyway, so I think time will help me wash away those feels. I can figure that out later, but for the time being I just need to know what documents I need to have ready to go if a open spot pops up.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

You need to be open to being let go and having to apply again in match if you mention this to your pd

 

[Qpworueury]

You need to be open to being let go and having to apply again in match if you mention this to your pd

I completely agree. That's the whole point of not telling them untill I basically come close to signing as possible. Hence this is why I'm trying to prepare what documents I need

 

[DO2015CA]

So basically you learned nothing from your last incident.

Just to give you some knowledge/perspective, once you start at your current advanced program they will be contacted for a reference til the end of time. E.g. trying to transfer: they get contacted. Applying for fellowship: they get contacted. Applying for a medical license: they get contacted. Applying for a job: they get contacted.

What I worry for you is that you are basically establishing you lied to their face all those months, that you aren't really giving them a chance and that all those ****ty feelings the PD and chair had back then will rise back up to the surface. Then you've got a big freaking problem cuz if they choose to be petty they have ample opportunity to do see (see above).

And re: if your intern year PD will give you a good reference...however you performed clinically is one thing but your prior story was so outlandish I would be shocked if they didn't mention it to potential transfer programs.

As I get more into academics and involved with struggling learners. The more I’m finding out these patterns are repeatable. Not only academic learners but professional patterns tend to be repeated too. Most people just don’t learn. It’s part of the reason that dishonest cheaters are judged so hard (I think). They likely will cheat again when their back is against the wall

 

[Dantes]

Unless you're also changing specialties in the process, you're gonna need a really good reason to switch programs. Based on the history I don't see this happening.

 

[Qpworueury]

Unless you're also changing specialties in the process, you're gonna need a really good reason to switch programs. Based on the history I don't see this happening.

I think you're thinking in the context of a residency swap. If there's an open spot there's an open spot, anyone is free to apply. And from what I've heard programs really want to fill those spots

 

[Qpworueury]

As I get more into academics and involved with struggling learners. The more I’m finding out these patterns are repeatable. Not only academic learners but professional patterns tend to be repeated too. Most people just don’t learn. It’s part of the reason that dishonest cheaters are judged so hard (I think). They likely will cheat again when their back is against the wall

I never cheated, I'm not repeating anything. The match says you must stay at a program for 45 days. And afterward you're free to do whatever you want. If there's an open spot somewhere else I'm free to take it or at least try to apply to it.

 

[gyngyn]

1) CV
2) Steps scores
3) Cover letter

What other documents do programs ask for when initiating the transfer process.

You will need to give them contact information for both PD's and your Student Affairs dean.

 

[Qpworueury]

You will need to give them contact information for both PD's and your Student Affairs dean.

Thanks. How early would I have to give out my PD information? How can they ask for that and expect you to transfer? Seems silly to go up to your PD and be like "I want to transfer" just to give them time to find your replacement. What if things fall through? You could end up with a non-renewal?

 

[gyngyn]

How early would I have to give out my PD information?

It will be part of the preliminary screen.

 

[LucidSplash]

Thanks. How early would I have to give out my PD information? How can they ask for that and expect you to transfer? Seems silly to go up to your PD and be like "I want to transfer" just to give them time to find your replacement. What if things fall through? You could end up with a non-renewal?

Correct. This is the risk. The new program will want a reference from the current program early in the process. Your current program will also start to look for a replacement as soon as they know your intentions.

The Match process, while the better version than what existed before it, is still heavily weighted in terms of power towards the program. I don’t have a good solution for this but it is important that you understand the risk you are taking.

 

[Qpworueury]

It will be part of the preliminary screen.

That's interesting. I had a friend that said the program didn't ask untill the very end of the process when they transferred

 

[guytakingboards]

Thanks. How early would I have to give out my PD information? How can they ask for that and expect you to transfer? Seems silly to go up to your PD and be like "I want to transfer" just to give them time to find your replacement. What if things fall through? You could end up with a non-renewal?

Ah, so you see the potential downside of your strategy now.

There is a reason transferring programs is uncommon except in the cases of rare spouse/familial cases.

It's sounds like you had it in your head like you could pull a fast one on your current advanced program director and present your transfer away as fait acomplii, but that was never the case.

You do need to announce your intentions prospectively, out of professional courtesy as much as anything, and be ready to suffer the fall out.

 

[gyngyn]

I had a friend that said the program didn't ask untill the very end of the process when they transferred

It will be part of the preliminary screen at any reputable program.
Applicants who fail to provide it, can reasonably be removed from consideration.

 

[Qpworueury]

Ah, so you see the potential downside of your strategy now.

There is a reason transferring programs is uncommon except in the cases of rare spouse/familial cases.

It's sounds like you had it in your head like you could pull a fast one on your current advanced program director and present your transfer away as fait acomplii, but that was never the case.

You do need to announce your intentions prospectively, out of professional courtesy as much as anything, and be ready to suffer the fall out.

What if I did have a good family/spousal reason for transferring? I'm not saying I wouldn't

 

[GoSpursGo]

That's interesting. I had a friend that said the program didn't ask untill the very end of the process when they transferred

Theoretically possible, but the vast majority of the time they are going to want to hear from your PD before spending time exploring a transfer. But regardless, it doesn’t matter when the PD assessment comes in, it is not a formality. If a new program reaches out to your current program and says you’re planning to transfer out, I assure you that your current program will give them all of the details of what happened last year, and then the new program will nope right out of there because a malcontent resident is worse than an empty spot. Then you’ll be stuck with your current program, who will presumably be none to pleased with these events after they already gave you some significant benefit of the doubt last year.

It is crazy to think you are on good terms with your current program after what happened last year, regardless of what they are saying to your face. If you attempt to do this, at best I suspect you will be unsuccessful and at worst it could blow up in your face and make your training even more awkward. I would not recommend. It’s time to accept that you matched where you did because none of the programs higher on your rank list wanted you, and you are training at the one program that thought your upside was worth taking a shot on. You are not the rockstar applicant you thought you were. There is no reason to believe you will do better outside of the match, especially because you are not going to get a positive endorsement from your current PD.

 

[Qpworueury]

Theoretically possible, but the vast majority of the time they are going to want to hear from your PD before spending time exploring a transfer. But regardless, it doesn’t matter when the PD assessment comes in, it is not a formality. If a new program reaches out to your current program and says you’re planning to transfer out, I assure you that your current program will give them all of the details of what happened last year, and then the new program will nope right out of there because a malcontent resident is worse than an empty spot. Then you’ll be stuck with your current program, who will presumably be none to pleased with these events after they already gave you some significant benefit of the doubt last year.

It is crazy to think you are on good terms with your current program after what happened last year, regardless of what they are saying to your face. If you attempt to do this, at best I suspect you will be unsuccessful and at worst it could blow up in your face and make your training even more awkward. I would not recommend. It’s time to accept that you matched where you did because none of the programs higher on your rank list wanted you, and you are training at the one program that thought your upside was worth taking a shot on. You are not the rockstar applicant you thought you were. There is no reason to believe you will do better outside of the match, especially because you are not going to get a positive endorsement from your current PD.

So are you basically saying if none of what happened last year, I would have had a better shot of pulling this off?

 

[guytakingboards]

So are you basically saying if none of what happened last year, I would have had a better shot of pulling this off?

My reaction

 

[Saddleshoes]

I sure hope you are not in my program.
Pulling out after 45 days is going to make your fellow residents have to work a lot harder and care for patients may suffer.
Your poor planning and selfishness is going to make a lot of honest folk's lives more difficult.

I also hope you are not in "small world" specialty program because your name may become Dr. Mudd in that world.

 

[GoSpursGo]

So are you basically saying if none of what happened last year, I would have had a better shot of pulling this off?

Yes. But even if it hadn’t, transferring programs within the same specialty is rare without some legit hardship like needing to move to be with a sick family member. So your odds would still have not been great

 

[DO2015CA]

I never cheated, I'm not repeating anything. The match says you must stay at a program for 45 days. And afterward you're free to do whatever you want. If there's an open spot somewhere else I'm free to take it or at least try to apply to it.

Didn’t say you cheated. It was an all too familiar example of why those experienced educators choose to not give second chances. I followed your previous thread and the story. Good luck with your endeavor

 

[DO2015CA]

So are you basically saying if none of what happened last year, I would have had a better shot of pulling this off?

Yes

 

[Qpworueury]

I sure hope you are not in my program.
Pulling out after 45 days is going to make your fellow residents have to work a lot harder and care for patients may suffer.
Your poor planning and selfishness is going to make a lot of honest folk's lives more difficult.

I also hope you are not in "small world" specialty program because your name may become Dr. Mudd in that world.

I'm not super concerned. they can find someone else to fill the spot in the long wrong. And I really don't envision myself staying there post residency so I don't think it matters in that regard.

 

[guytakingboards]

I'm not super concerned. they can find someone else to fill the spot in the long wrong. And I really don't envision myself staying there post residency so I don't think it matters in that regard.

OP there's a not small amount of irony in the amount of callous disregard you have for your advanced program and the amount of impact they can have on the entire rest of your medical career.

For whatever you think of yourself and your match result, you've gone from "person with great stats who for whatever reason fell on his rank list" to "great stats person with a lot of red flags [/we get why he fell on his rank list]". The latter category washes out of medicine pretty frequently.

 

[LucidSplash]

I'm not super concerned. they can find someone else to fill the spot in the long wrong. And I really don't envision myself staying there post residency so I don't think it matters in that regard.

You aren’t listening. You say you don’t think it matters, but there’s all these seasoned people trying to tell you that 1) you need the good graces of every place you train at (not just where you graduate from) literally for the rest of your professional career because every time you apply for a new job/get new credentials all your training programs will need to send verification and 2) small fields especially most people know each other, especially the kind of people that are on the academic tracks who may be PDs or APDs now but end up as chairs who hire people. Even if you don’t want to stay academic, smaller fields everyone STILL knows everyone and they call around to people they know to hear their thoughts. Professional reputation is a BFD in these smaller fields and you are apparently wholly discounting the importance to your future career.

There are definitely a couple people I’ve come across in my training and career that if someone called and said “hey you know this person from X or Y place, what are your thoughts” who I would honestly have to say “I wouldn’t want to work with that person.” You don’t want to be that person.

🤷🏼‍♀️

 

[Goro]

Unteachabilty is still incompatible with a medical career, OP

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

And from what I've heard programs really want to fill those spots

Not going to rehash the valid and accurate information others have provided.

Only to point out that yes, programs really want to fill open spots. But many people also want those (good) spots. In an open competition where there are many applicants for a single spot, you need a buttoned-up story and application. Based on your posts, I'm not exactly convinced that will be the case.

 

[Qpworueury]

Not going to rehash the valid and accurate information others have provided.

Only to point out that yes, programs really want to fill open spots. But many people also want those (good) spots. In an open competition where there are many applicants for a single spot, you need a buttoned-up story and application. Based on your posts, I'm not exactly convinced that will be the case.

I'm mainly concerned that I'll lose to an internal candidate. How compete with someone that perhaps is transferring from a different specialty that knows whatever hospital system very well because they've been there. Can you provide some help on how I can button up my story and application? A clever cover letter?

 

[Qpworueury]

OP there's a not small amount of irony in the amount of callous disregard you have for your advanced program and the amount of impact they can have on the entire rest of your medical career.

For whatever you think of yourself and your match result, you've gone from "person with great stats who for whatever reason fell on his rank list" to "great stats person with a lot of red flags [/we get why he fell on his rank list]". The latter category washes out of medicine pretty frequently.

Wait I don't understand this? I thought they would be helpful for maybe the first job but after they don't care about your residency experience. It just because how well you did at work?

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

"Clever" is not the word I would generally use. "Honest" and "Compelling", perhaps.

But a cover letter/personal statement only may get a foot in the door. As others have told you, the key is getting recommendations (both written and verbal) from your current and past programs. Doesn't matter what you write, or what your CV looks like. If the potential new PD calls the PD from where you're transferring and hears anything besides "This is a great candidate, we would love to keep them, and you would be fortunate to have them", you're unlikely to get the spot.

EDIT: And to add, if the current PD gets a call and is blindsided by the fact you're looking--which seems like a distinct possibility based on your plan--the chances of things ending poorly for you go up substantially.

 

[Qpworueury]

"Clever" is not the word I would generally use. "Honest" and "Compelling", perhaps.

But a cover letter/personal statement only may get a foot in the door. As others have told you, the key is getting recommendations (both written and verbal) from your current and past programs. Doesn't matter what you write, or what your CV looks like. If the potential new PD calls your PD front the place you're transferring and hears anything besides "This is a great candidate, we would love to keep them, and you would be fortunate to have them", you're unlikely to get the spot.

Question is how rigorously will they verify your reason of transfer? My hope is the process goes like this


Application submitted -> interview -> PD approval

I need to give myself time to come up with a crafted story and I DO NOT plan on telling my home program that I'm transferring untill I've signed out or very close to signing. If they asked for that info in step 2, I probably just not respond further. People have before there has to be a way to do it

 

[guytakingboards]

I'm mainly concerned that I'll lose to an internal candidate. How compete with someone that perhaps is transferring from a different specialty that knows whatever hospital system very well because they've been there.

Then you are worried about things well outside your control and are completely ignoring the things within your control.

Wait I don't understand this? I thought they would be helpful for maybe the first job but after they don't care about your residency experience. It just because how well you did at work?

You thought wrong. From Med school onward, every place along your journey will be contacted every time you apply for training positions, jobs and licenses. If this program you are trying desperately to abandon at all costs chooses to say something like “has professionalism concerns” on your verifications you will likely have trouble for the rest of your career.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

Question is how rigorously will they verify your reason of transfer? My hope is the process goes like this


Application submitted -> interview -> PD approval

I need to give myself time to come up with a crafted story and I DO NOT plan on telling my home program that I'm transferring untill I've signed out or very close to signing. If they asked for that info in step 2, I probably just not respond further. People have before there has to be a way to do it

Hope what you want. Myself and others are telling you that's not how it happens.

Your current PD will be called early in the process. Potentially even before you interview. But certainly prior to any final decisions are are made on whom they're making offers.

There is a way to do it. But those who have done it successfully don't approach the process assuming they just need to "craft" the right story.

 

[Esmolol]

Ok. Seriously. What's going on here? This must be a troll...

 

[Apollyon]

Dude, you sure ain't James Bond.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Question is how rigorously will they verify your reason of transfer? My hope is the process goes like this


Application submitted -> interview -> PD approval

Quite rigorously. And again, there are two problems with your idea of the process: 1) PD approval will go before interview at many programs; and 2) even if it is after interview, it will not be a formality. They are going to give an honest assessment of you as a physician and as a person, and I am pretty sure that any program which hears about what happened last year is going to take literally any candidate over you (not just an internal one).

I need to give myself time to come up with a crafted story and I DO NOT plan on telling my home program that I'm transferring untill I've signed out or very close to signing. If they asked for that info in step 2, I probably just not respond further. People have before there has to be a way to do it

"come up with a crafted story" sounds a lot like lying, which I thought you weren't doing.

Others have managed to transfer because they had good reasons. Not "because I am disappointed in how low I fell on my rank list."

 

[xffan624]

Question is how rigorously will they verify your reason of transfer? My hope is the process goes like this


Application submitted -> interview -> PD approval

I need to give myself time to come up with a crafted story and I DO NOT plan on telling my home program that I'm transferring untill I've signed out or very close to signing. If they asked for that info in step 2, I probably just not respond further. People have before there has to be a way to do it

OP, Any program that is willing to take you without talking to your current PD for a reference is probably worse than your current program. Have you considered that? Programs with open spots that aren't picky about the residents they hire are not programs that you likely would have ranked high.

 

[Qpworueury]

It's not because I'm just willy nilly transferring. I have lots of reasons I don't like my current place. It's far away from my home, my SO is far away etc. All of those apply to me.

 

[Qpworueury]

Hope what you want. Myself and others are telling you that's not how it happens.

Your current PD will be called early in the process. Potentially even before you interview. But certainly prior to any final decisions are are made on whom they're making offers.

There is a way to do it. But those who have done it successfully don't approach the process assuming they just need to "craft" the right story.

Like I said, I'd probably just drop the application if I had the feeling that they'd would call early. Just not respond.