Please, please, please don't go to NYU

[#cariology]

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[Winner32]

Pretty much this.

Not being a dentist sounds like a good alternative until you try to get a job with a majority of bachelor's degrees and are making 30k a year.

For example, in my STEM degree program, one person is currently making 29k a year and the other has a bachelor's degree + an MPH (Did the dual program) and hasn't even found a job yet nearly three months after graduation.

When you see this alternative, those scary debt numbers are put into a bit more perspective. Of course this doesn't mean NYU's tuition isn't insane, or that there aren't undergrad programs that make more reputable salaries. However if someone is this deep in the dental application process it's highly unlikely that they are in a position to drop everything and go back to undergrad for another degree.

The way I see it, you can live like a pauper for 10 years after going to NYU and then make a decent middle class salary (While potentially owning your own buisness) OR in a large part of cases you can make an average salary (40-70k) for your entire life(While likely always working for someone else).

Finally, as another poster said, while I know you mean well with this warning NYU will always fill their classes until the student loan bubble burst. Even now as you write this, there are students on this forum who are wishing for nothing more than a call from NYU for an acceptance. I think the greatest likelihood for change is going to be addressing the problem at its source, which is the government giving students virtually unlimited amounts of loan money allowing schools to raise cost to levels nearly none of us could afford otherwise. If tomorrow student loans were capped at 60k, I think you would see a lot of schools change their tune on the rising cost of a dental education.

This x100. People on here love to tell others not to attend such and such school due to tuition, BUT NEVER OFFER LEGIT ALTERNATIVES! Someone like myself whose invested 5 years of schooling geared towards dental school can't just drop everything if the only acceptance I have is from an expensive private school.

 

[Winner32]

I certainly don't lose sleep over it but you're wrong to think that one's choices can't impact another. Many people (dentists and business people alike) think that obscene student loans are fueling the rise of corporate dentistry and unethical behavior (both of which will probably increase competition for you and decrease your paycheck). You're not going to be practicing in a bubble, isolated from all problems, but as part of a field that is changing, in many respects not for the better.

I don't disagree with you in the sense that high tuition has caused student loan issues, but like wengerout mentioned, why are we pointing fingers at private schools with high tuition and not the government for handing out loans like candy. A school like NYU has every right in the world to charge what they do and students have every right not to attend.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Pretty much this.

Not being a dentist sounds like a good alternative until you try to get a job with a majority of bachelor's degrees and are making 30k a year.

For example, in my STEM degree program, one person is currently making 29k a year and the other has a bachelor's degree + an MPH (Did the dual program) and hasn't even found a job yet nearly three months after graduation.

When you see this alternative, those scary debt numbers are put into a bit more perspective. Of course this doesn't mean NYU's tuition isn't insane, or that there aren't undergrad programs that make more reputable salaries. However if someone is this deep in the dental application process it's highly unlikely that they are in a position to drop everything and go back to undergrad for another degree.

The way I see it, you can live like a pauper for 10 years after going to NYU and then make a decent middle class salary (While potentially owning your own buisness) OR in a large part of cases you can make an average salary (40-70k) for your entire life(While likely always working for someone else).

Finally, as another poster said, while I know you mean well with this warning NYU will always fill their classes until the student loan bubble burst. Even now as you write this, there are students on this forum who are wishing for nothing more than a call from NYU for an acceptance. I think the greatest likelihood for change is going to be addressing the problem at its source, which is the government giving students virtually unlimited amounts of loan money allowing schools to raise cost to levels nearly none of us could afford otherwise. If tomorrow student loans were capped at 60k, I think you would see a lot of schools change their tune on the rising cost of a dental education.

Mr. Wengerout, 100% this. I didn't bust my ass to get into school and then decide to get scared and drop out of the application process. The grass is 100% NOT greener on the other side. People underestimate the self employment and job security aspect of the dental field. ALL of us will be making more money post tax and loan payment than a large chunk of most Americans. Do we want to live like most Americans? Maybe not, but if they can get by, so can we for a few years before loans are paid off/forgiven/ we die.

 

[dentalcpa90]

This x100. People on here love to tell others not to attend such and such school due to tuition, BUT NEVER OFFER LEGIT ALTERNATIVES! Someone like myself whose invested 5 years of schooling geared towards dental school can't just drop everything if the only acceptance I have is from an expensive private school.

What makes me sad is that kids nowadays have to make a huge financial decision when they are only 18. Pretty much choose your path correctly or be screwed for life... It's crazy how messed up the education system has gotten.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Even if I will have the 300k in loans and no left from dental school (paid them already)?

The primary cost there then is opportunity cost. I doubt you'd be in the same spot financially if you worked as a general dentist for 3 years as an owner in an unsaturated area vs as an orthodontist.

If you've already paid it back from dental school you've got the focus and discipline to pay back your ortho debt, so I'd say it's more "do you want to do this" vs is this smart financially? The answer is that it's probably not the best but it'd doable.

Yea, and I honestly don't get why people even care if someone attends an expensive school. For those who are anti nyu, how does it affect you in any way if someone decides to pay 600k in tuition. Are you seriously losing sleep over this? Ironically enough it seems the ones who attend cheaper schools are the one who talk about these expensive schools the most.

I've advised 130 dentists this year and a huge number have been from the same school, NYU. The fact that they feel like they need my help to figure out how they could possibly deal with their massive student debt tells you something. And also when you've heard as many of them express regret and even depression for having made their decision, you'd probably want to go to the source too before people make the decision so you can at least say that you warned them. Also if the school is presenting misleading information in the admissions process then I sure as heck would want somebody who is just passing on what they've heard that they're full of it.

Why is UOP on that list? What about the fact that you start working a year early and only pay for 3 years of housing as opposed to 4?(assuming you go back home afterwards).

If you look at the tuition per year they more than make up for the fact it's a 3 year program by charging insane prices for the 3 years you're there. Most UoP I've spoken with have been 500k+.

What about Western in CA and Nova in Florida?

Since you specifically talked about NYU, why would AT Still be a relatively better investment? Thanks!

Western and Nova are top 20 expensive I think. Something like 400k to 450k. AT Still I believe has a higher total 4 year cost than NYU because of higher tuition levels but on the site they only list freshman year I think so hard to tell. Just extrapolating. Neither AT Still or NYU is a good investment is the point.

Yes, I know the difference between in-state SBU coa and NYU, NYU is definitely more expensive than SBU due to it's location and that it is a private school for in-state student, but it's roughly same for out-state student although I am not sure how long until you can considered to pay in-state tuition for SBU. The point I am trying to make here is that not everyone stand at top batch of applicant, so not all of the applicant will get into a cheaper state school. One will make their choice depends on their own situation, for instance if someone was accepted to NYU and want to decline that offer just because they want get into a cheaper state school is pretty unfavorable. The amount of money they have saved is about the same as one year of average salary they could have earned if not delaying one more cycle. Moreover, telling people not to apply for certain school just because they are expensive than in-state school but not for out-state student will only decrease each applicant's chance to become a dentist, which I think most state will have more applicants than in-state acceptance. In the end, I disagree with OP by pointing out certain school and telling people not to go there (I don't know what beef you got with NYU that you need title this thread like this). I admit those school listed are more expensive, but it's not like they doubled the price and they shouldn't be marked as "radioactive, DO NOT approach". As a loan planner, I would rather to see you bsing about why dental school are allowed to charge this much, why the loan interest so high, why it can't be subsidized loan.

Not to sound insensitive, but if your only offer to go to dental school is from NYU, that's the market telling you that you need to be an accountant and not a dentist. Once you go there you won't be able to repay your debt regardless of making an extra year's income. The primary beef I have with them is that according to my clients they've made horribly misleading statements that have not been accurate in the least, thus spreading misinformation that colors people's acceptance decisions.

Pretty much this.

Not being a dentist sounds like a good alternative until you try to get a job with a majority of bachelor's degrees and are making 30k a year.

For example, in my STEM degree program, one person is currently making 29k a year and the other has a bachelor's degree + an MPH (Did the dual program) and hasn't even found a job yet nearly three months after graduation.

When you see this alternative, those scary debt numbers are put into a bit more perspective. Of course this doesn't mean NYU's tuition isn't insane, or that there aren't undergrad programs that make more reputable salaries. However if someone is this deep in the dental application process it's highly unlikely that they are in a position to drop everything and go back to undergrad for another degree.

The way I see it, you can live like a pauper for 10 years after going to NYU and then make a decent middle class salary (While potentially owning your own buisness) OR in a large part of cases you can make an average salary (40-70k) for your entire life(While likely always working for someone else).

Finally, as another poster said, while I know you mean well with this warning NYU will always fill their classes until the student loan bubble burst. Even now as you write this, there are students on this forum who are wishing for nothing more than a call from NYU for an acceptance. I think the greatest likelihood for change is going to be addressing the problem at its source, which is the government giving students virtually unlimited amounts of loan money allowing schools to raise cost to levels nearly none of us could afford otherwise. If tomorrow student loans were capped at 60k, I think you would see a lot of schools change their tune on the rising cost of a dental education.

True on the high cost of debt. However, with the expensive dental schools you don't just have to live like a pauper to afford paying it back straight up in 10 years, you have to not even live. 100% of your income would be taken by loan payments until you become a practice owner then you'd have like 50,000.

You mention someone making 29k a year, that's extremely atypical. Most of the people I went to school with that just have bachelor's degrees make between $60,000-$90,000 per year, and they'll probably get raises to $100,000-$120,000 incomes in a couple years, and none have any student loans.

Instead of looking at it like you're gonna work for someone else, why not use the 10 years you would've been repaying NYU to save aggressively for early retirement instead ala Mr. Money Mustache then not have to work for anybody if you didn't want to? The idea of "I have to be a dentist otherwise I'm going to be working at 7 eleven" isn't accurate.

Also think about what NYU is. They're basically a factory trying to open up as many spots to use people's dreams of being a dentist as a way to make a boatload of money. Yes they have a waiting list and people are battling to get in. As more understanding of loans permeates, I expect they'll struggle to attract applicants.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

This x100. People on here love to tell others not to attend such and such school due to tuition, BUT NEVER OFFER LEGIT ALTERNATIVES! Someone like myself whose invested 5 years of schooling geared towards dental school can't just drop everything if the only acceptance I have is from an expensive private school.

An alternative would be apply to a corporate rotational program at the career fair instead and see what kind of offers you could get coming out with a bachelor's degree. My guess is that you'd get $50,000-$60,000 first year with potential to grow. Then if you've got a science bachelor's consider having your company pay for your MBA for working for them, or look into some sort of 1-2 year engineering master's that will cost $20,000 at an in state school.

NYU only has the right to charge what they do if they're honest with applicants during the admissions process. Right now I feel like they haven't been.

 

[Winner32]

An alternative would be apply to a corporate rotational program at the career fair instead and see what kind of offers you could get coming out with a bachelor's degree. My guess is that you'd get $50,000-$60,000 first year with potential to grow. Then if you've got a science bachelor's consider having your company pay for your MBA for working for them, or look into some sort of 1-2 year engineering master's that will cost $20,000 at an in state school.

NYU only has the right to charge what they do if they're honest with applicants during the admissions process. Right now I feel like they haven't been.

Getting a company to pay for your MBA is easier said than done, especially if you are a fresh graduate. MBA programs are also really expensive. And unless you attend a top 10 program it's essentially useless (all about the connections).

What has nyu said that's been dishonest? You can see on their website cost of tuition and est living expenses.

 

[738177]

This x100. People on here love to tell others not to attend such and such school due to tuition, BUT NEVER OFFER LEGIT ALTERNATIVES! Someone like myself whose invested 5 years of schooling geared towards dental school can't just drop everything if the only acceptance I have is from an expensive private school.

Have you considered Pharm/Optometry/Medicine? It's not terribly difficult to make the switch to any of them, considering that the pre-reqs for all of these is the same. In all 3, you can start at ~100k after 4 years of school just like Dentistry (given you're moonlighting in medicine).

 

[StudentDentistsRock]

OP, I'll be honest. I was gonna apply to NYU just yesterday until I came across this thread. I ended up not sending in my application. While I want to be a dentist, my first and foremost goal is to come out with as minimal debt as possible. My goal is Temple dental. If I manage to get into an Ivy school, I'm not gonna take the bait unless I happen to get a scholarship which brings down the price making costs comparable to Temple (which is highly unlikely I my case).

But I have been looking into NYU costs and they are indeed crazy. No way hozay.

 

[Winner32]

Have you considered Pharm/Optometry/Medicine? It's not terribly difficult to make the switch to any of them, considering that the pre-reqs for all of these is the same. In all 3, you can start at ~100k after 4 years of school just like Dentistry (given you're moonlighting in medicine).

Of course. But the grass isn't always green. They all have their own issues. Have you been to the pharmacy sub forum in the last few years? Sure pharmacy/opto have lower tuition, but not exactly the same earning potential as a dentist.

 

[738177]

Of course. But the grass isn't always green. They all have their own issues. Have you been to the pharmacy sub forum in the last few years? Sure pharmacy/opto have lower tuition, but not exactly the same earning potential as a dentist.

To reach the earning potential as a Dentist, you have to be business savy and a successful practice owner. How many students are really going to take on more debt to buy into a practice after graduating from NYU? That's why these threads keep popping up. As a pre-dent you now have to ask yourself "Am i going to be a practice owner or an associate my whole life" in addition to the "do i want to be a Dentist" question. If you just plan on associating, you can argue that Pharm/Opt will live the same lives as you considering their debt load. To top it all off, associate salaries have been stagnant for years and haven't kept up with inflation.

I 100% agree you're not gonna get a company to pay off your MBA and make ~90k as a Biology BSc grad. It's just highly unlikely. But i think other health professions should be looked at as alternatives.

 

[wengerout]

The primary cost there then is opportunity cost. I doubt you'd be in the same spot financially if you worked as a general dentist for 3 years as an owner in an unsaturated area vs as an orthodontist.

If you've already paid it back from dental school you've got the focus and discipline to pay back your ortho debt, so I'd say it's more "do you want to do this" vs is this smart financially? The answer is that it's probably not the best but it'd doable.



I've advised 130 dentists this year and a huge number have been from the same school, NYU. The fact that they feel like they need my help to figure out how they could possibly deal with their massive student debt tells you something. And also when you've heard as many of them express regret and even depression for having made their decision, you'd probably want to go to the source too before people make the decision so you can at least say that you warned them. Also if the school is presenting misleading information in the admissions process then I sure as heck would want somebody who is just passing on what they've heard that they're full of it.



If you look at the tuition per year they more than make up for the fact it's a 3 year program by charging insane prices for the 3 years you're there. Most UoP I've spoken with have been 500k+.



Western and Nova are top 20 expensive I think. Something like 400k to 450k. AT Still I believe has a higher total 4 year cost than NYU because of higher tuition levels but on the site they only list freshman year I think so hard to tell. Just extrapolating. Neither AT Still or NYU is a good investment is the point.



Not to sound insensitive, but if your only offer to go to dental school is from NYU, that's the market telling you that you need to be an accountant and not a dentist. Once you go there you won't be able to repay your debt regardless of making an extra year's income. The primary beef I have with them is that according to my clients they've made horribly misleading statements that have not been accurate in the least, thus spreading misinformation that colors people's acceptance decisions.



True on the high cost of debt. However, with the expensive dental schools you don't just have to live like a pauper to afford paying it back straight up in 10 years, you have to not even live. 100% of your income would be taken by loan payments until you become a practice owner then you'd have like 50,000.

You mention someone making 29k a year, that's extremely atypical. Most of the people I went to school with that just have bachelor's degrees make between $60,000-$90,000 per year, and they'll probably get raises to $100,000-$120,000 incomes in a couple years, and none have any student loans.

Instead of looking at it like you're gonna work for someone else, why not use the 10 years you would've been repaying NYU to save aggressively for early retirement instead ala Mr. Money Mustache then not have to work for anybody if you didn't want to? The idea of "I have to be a dentist otherwise I'm going to be working at 7 eleven" isn't accurate.

Also think about what NYU is. They're basically a factory trying to open up as many spots to use people's dreams of being a dentist as a way to make a boatload of money. Yes they have a waiting list and people are battling to get in. As more understanding of loans permeates, I expect they'll struggle to attract applicants.

Is it atypical? The average salary for new grads across the board is around $49,785. Just making 100k means you earn more than 88% of all Americans. I recognize a portion of STEM degrees (Engineering) as well as other degrees (Business) off higher salaries out of the gate, but your average Bio major (by far the most popular degree in Pre-Dents) is not going to pull these kind of incomes if they decide in the end to drop dentistry. They won't work at a 7-Eleven, but the disparity income without further education (most likely a PhD) is large.

As for saving the money instead that is a valid alternative I would say. I'll push back on your last point though. While NYU does have a huge class I think they get demonized with the "factory" label. Several other schools (Tufts for example) also have huge classes, and schools such as MUSC surpass it in cost IIRC. I also don't think they will see a serious drop in applicants until the loan bubble burst. Yes there's applicants on SDN who have shown a great understanding of the financial situation, but it's been shown time and time again that SDN attracts the most driven applicants. At my own undergrad I know pre-dents going to dental school who have no idea SDN exist. A large portion of these students would gladly take the loans for NYU over not going to school at all.


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[Scumbag_Steve]

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[tyjacobs]

OP, thanks for discussing your opinions. What do you think about schools like Penn and Columbia? Do you think those schools are more worth the investment than schools like NYU, USC, tufts, etc.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

What about Western in CA and Nova in Florida?

Since you specifically talked about NYU, why would AT Still be a relatively better investment? Thanks!

The living cost is heavily inflated from Nova's COA sheet. The tuition is about average for private dental school and you buy your instruments first/second year so you can use them during practice after you graduate. No way in hell you are spending upwards of 20 grand a year to live in Davie. However, Nova has extremely limited financial aid to offer, so it is likely what you see (as far as tuition) is what you'll pay

 

[super frank]

Contributing somewhat to what @wengerout and @Alpha Centauri have said...

I am about to finish working my gap year with a job in the pharmaceutical industry. I made just over 30k this year, pre-tax, with a B.S. in Biology. I am actually lucky to even have this job, as it is nearly impossible to find a pharmaceutical job straight out of college (hello Masters programs/PhDs). I know many people who are working retail, restaurant, bartending, etc. with a Biology degree. The work was demoralizing, as I would come in everyday, live as a lab-rat, go home, and repeat the process. There was nothing to be proud of... I was just testing drug products for some massive pharmaceutical company that was making millions while I was pulling in next to nothing... Sure there are promotions if you are willing, topping out at 70k as a manager after years of working here lol.

I spent most of this year hating it, however, I now am beginning to realize that I am lucky that I had this year because I now know how horrible it is to work in corporate America as some number. Most students today go straight from UG to DS, and really have no idea how lucky we are to enter a profession that gives us the opportunity to be our own bosses, help others, and still make some decent coin... Sure, some people may enjoy the corporate American lifestyle where you simply go to work 8-5, go home, microwave a TV dinner and watch some television, but it's definitely not my cup of tea...

I also would like to hear your answer to @tyjacobs question, as I am an incoming Penn student. It is important to note that these schools do provide for their students. Penn offers scholarships, and their HPL (capped at 5% for lifetime, no accrual during school/residency) this year was at 26k. Columbia also offers grants, and I'm sure some HPL.

 

[SkinnyT]

An alternative would be apply to a corporate rotational program at the career fair instead and see what kind of offers you could get coming out with a bachelor's degree. My guess is that you'd get $50,000-$60,000 first year with potential to grow. Then if you've got a science bachelor's consider having your company pay for your MBA for working for them, or look into some sort of 1-2 year engineering master's that will cost $20,000 at an in state school.

NYU only has the right to charge what they do if they're honest with applicants during the admissions process. Right now I feel like they haven't been.

How does becoming an RDH then compare to going to dental school from the financial stand point of view? Any thoughts?

 

[Craig_Sherwood234]

OP, thanks for discussing your opinions. What do you think about schools like Penn and Columbia? Do you think those schools are more worth the investment than schools like NYU, USC, tufts, etc.

Schools like Penn and Columbia aren't as clinically strong and focused as Tufts; they have different philosophies. Those schools are considered "research-heavy" and are known to attract students that want to specialize. In other words, ask yourself if being a million dollars in the hole is worth any investment.

 

[super frank]

Schools like Penn and Columbia aren't as clinically strong and focused as Tufts; they have different philosophies. Those schools are considered "research-heavy" and are known to attract students that want to specialize. In other words, ask yourself if being a million dollars in the hole is worth any investment.

That may have been so 10-20 years ago, but times are changing... Both schools are now very much-so focused on clinical skills. Penn just completely renovated all their facilities (sim-lab, clinic) and Columbia is in the process of renovating their clinic. A recent Penn grad who's doing a GPR through the Navy says he is one of the students with the top clinical skills in his class. People still peg these schools as clinically inferior because of their reputations.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

You mention someone making 29k a year, that's extremely atypical. Most of the people I went to school with that just have bachelor's degrees make between $60,000-$90,000 per year, and they'll probably get raises to $100,000-$120,000 incomes in a couple years, and none have any student loans.

Travis with all due respect, you DO NOT KNOW what life is like for people struggling to make ends meet. You said it yourself you worked on wall street and make enough money to retire decades before most would even consider. The only people you are able to cite with high income from a bachelor's degree comes from your own experiences and not the majority of the country. The clients that come to you for help are only your clients because most are struggling to make ends meet. You almost seem to never share the positive aspects of the dental field. The more I spend time on SDN the more I realize how negative it has become.

Yes, I agree. You are absolutely correct when it comes to schools massacring the next generation of dentists with debt, but to say that we as a people who elect to go to private schools are enslaved forever is flat out wrong. As dentists, we are in a class of our own (in the sense where we provide for ourselves our own job security). We should not be grouped the same way people who have an income of 30-40k post-tax income, just because we spent the other 50-70k of our income on student loans. No matter what debt situation a person is in, be it 350k post interest or 1 million plus after specializing, there will always be a strategy to live a comfortable life. It may not be what we deserve for our time investment in our education, but it certainly will be better than those truly living paycheck to paycheck.

 

[SmileItsLife]

An alternative would be apply to a corporate rotational program at the career fair instead and see what kind of offers you could get coming out with a bachelor's degree. My guess is that you'd get $50,000-$60,000 first year with potential to grow. Then if you've got a science bachelor's consider having your company pay for your MBA for working for them, or look into some sort of 1-2 year engineering master's that will cost $20,000 at an in state school.

NYU only has the right to charge what they do if they're honest with applicants during the admissions process. Right now I feel like they haven't been.

I'm really curious how you got those numbers.....

In my experience, an entry level job with a science degree will be ~$30k/ yr

Maybe if you are an IT major or engineering major, you'll make that kind of money.... but I'm pretty sure most predents are biology, Chem, or some other natural science major.....

 

[Craig_Sherwood234]

That may have been so 10-20 years ago, but times are changing... Both schools are now very much-so focused on clinical skills. Penn just completely renovated all their facilities (sim-lab, clinic) and Columbia is in the process of renovating their clinic. A recent Penn grad who's doing a GPR through the Navy says he is one of the students with the top clinical skills in his class. People still peg these schools as clinically inferior because of their reputations.

You're missing the mark by a long shot here; the entire point of a clinically strong school is not to spend an entire year on clinical skills after graduating. Again, if your goal is to go into research, then by all means. My father, a graduate of a clinically strong school, went straight to private practice and eventually bought his own practice and has been doing just fine ever since; he credits it entirely to his school. Again, different schools have different philosophies. People on here love to throw around the mantra that every dental school is the same; that couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[super frank]

You're missing the mark by a long shot here; the entire point of a clinically strong school is not to spend an entire year on clinical skills after graduating. Again, if your goal is to go into research, then by all means. My father, a graduate of a clinically strong school, went straight to private practice and eventually bought his own practice and has been doing just fine ever since; he credits it entirely to his school. Again, different schools have different philosophies. People on here love to throw around the mantra that every dental school is the same; that couldn't be further from the truth.

What, lol? Graduating from Penn had nothing to do with him taking a GPR, he wanted more exposure to implants and complex extractions/RCTs, which no schools provide their students with. I know people from Temple, Pitt, Maryland who go into GPR/AEGDs, it's just what most students are doing today in order to become "super" GPs.

All that your dad was doing back in the day was filling and pulling teeth. Bread and butter work... What a private practice GP must do today to be successful is much, much more. You can't compare the environment now to twenty years ago.

 

[O Gaúcho]

OP, thanks for discussing your opinions. What do you think about schools like Penn and Columbia? Do you think those schools are more worth the investment than schools like NYU, USC, tufts, etc.

Both those schools you will walk away with more than $500k debt and will have the same degree you get from USC and NYU.

 

[Craig_Sherwood234]

What, lol? Graduating from Penn had nothing to do with him taking a GPR, he wanted more exposure to implants and complex extractions/RCTs, which no schools provide their students with. I know people from Temple, Pitt, Maryland who go into GPR/AEGDs, it's just what most students are doing today in order to become "super" GPs.

All that your dad was doing back in the day was filling and pulling teeth. Bread and butter work... What a private practice GP must do today to be successful is much, much more. You can't compare the environment now to twenty years ago.

Spending a year of income potential/time/money under the pretense of more exposure. Try not to sound so desperate now. And with regards to your non sequitur: Sure.

 

[super frank]

Spending a year of income potential/time/money under the pretense of more exposure. Try not to sound so desperate now. And with regards to your non sequitur: Sure.

hahahahahahahah

 

[ThirdMolarz]

lol

 

[Faefly]

Please, please, please don't tell us what to do with our own life!
Where to apply, where to live, and where to work!

 

[CherHorowitz]

The worst 10 starting at the highest debt one: Midwestern IL, AT Still, Midwestern AZ, NYU, USC, Penn, Pacific, Missouri ATSU, Loma Linda, and Tufts

I wouldn't go to any of those.

Can you compile a list of top 15 or 20 most expensive dental schools on a separate thread? That would be of great help.

 

[super frank]

Can you compile a list of top 15 or 20 most expensive dental schools on a separate thread? That would be of great help.

Already exists.

 

[CherHorowitz]

Can you compile a list of top 15 or 20 most expensive dental schools on a separate thread? That would be of great help.

The Most Ridiculously Expensive Dental Schools Thread

Sorry you guys (Not updated to 2017)

 

[super frank]

The Most Ridiculously Expensive Dental Schools Thread

Sorry you guys (Not updated to 2017)

Add 3% to each school.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Both those schools you will walk away with more than $500k debt and will have the same degree you get from USC and NYU.

lol@500k

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Getting a company to pay for your MBA is easier said than done, especially if you are a fresh graduate. MBA programs are also really expensive. And unless you attend a top 10 program it's essentially useless (all about the connections).

What has nyu said that's been dishonest? You can see on their website cost of tuition and est living expenses.

It's what I've heard from clients and readers about the things their administrators and financial aid office has allegedly said. The cost of attendance on their website is below what I've been seeing from all the recent grads I've spoken with.

Agree with you that if you don't go top 10 it's a waste of time and money unless your company pays for it while you work.

OP, I'll be honest. I was gonna apply to NYU just yesterday until I came across this thread. I ended up not sending in my application. While I want to be a dentist, my first and foremost goal is to come out with as minimal debt as possible. My goal is Temple dental. If I manage to get into an Ivy school, I'm not gonna take the bait unless I happen to get a scholarship which brings down the price making costs comparable to Temple (which is highly unlikely I my case).

But I have been looking into NYU costs and they are indeed crazy. No way hozay.

Temple is ok, still expensive but you'll have a chance of paying it back and probably one of the cheapest in the northeast.

Have you considered Pharm/Optometry/Medicine? It's not terribly difficult to make the switch to any of them, considering that the pre-reqs for all of these is the same. In all 3, you can start at ~100k after 4 years of school just like Dentistry (given you're moonlighting in medicine).

I'd suggest medicine. The docs who own surgical centers can sometimes make $1-$2 million particularly in Texas. The most successful dentist I've ever spoken with was making about $500,000-$600,000 per year. So if you want to make money then medicine is still the best place to do it. Just avoid primary care and pediatrics and have a lot of stamina for years of training.

I'm really curious how you got those numbers.....

In my experience, an entry level job with a science degree will be ~$30k/ yr

Maybe if you are an IT major or engineering major, you'll make that kind of money.... but I'm pretty sure most predents are biology, Chem, or some other natural science major.....

I'd say you need to look for a job that respects you more. Maybe consider trying for a different field like consulting, finance, product management, or something like that?

I googled starting salaries for the state university I went to and the range for bachelor's degrees on average is comfortably in the range I stated: University of Florida (UF) School Salary, Average Salaries by Degree | PayScale

Travis with all due respect, you DO NOT KNOW what life is like for people struggling to make ends meet. You said it yourself you worked on wall street and make enough money to retire decades before most would even consider. The only people you are able to cite with high income from a bachelor's degree comes from your own experiences and not the majority of the country. The clients that come to you for help are only your clients because most are struggling to make ends meet. You almost seem to never share the positive aspects of the dental field. The more I spend time on SDN the more I realize how negative it has become.

Yes, I agree. You are absolutely correct when it comes to schools massacring the next generation of dentists with debt, but to say that we as a people who elect to go to private schools are enslaved forever is flat out wrong. As dentists, we are in a class of our own (in the sense where we provide for ourselves our own job security). We should not be grouped the same way people who have an income of 30-40k post-tax income, just because we spent the other 50-70k of our income on student loans. No matter what debt situation a person is in, be it 350k post interest or 1 million plus after specializing, there will always be a strategy to live a comfortable life. It may not be what we deserve for our time investment in our education, but it certainly will be better than those truly living paycheck to paycheck.

I wouldn't say that's accurate. I grew up in a single income family of 5 with a household income of $40,000. My parents had to ask for a loan from me once when they spent down their savings when I'd saved up some money working in high school. Others I knew growing up were multimillionaires from saving half their income despite never making six figures.

Ive spoken to plenty of dentists living beyond their means that are struggling to make ends meet living paycheck to paycheck despite their $160,000 income. Some of my clients are like that, but some are really well off.

It's worth noting that of the 130 dentists who've hired me the past year, not a single one making more than $250,000 from my recollection went to a school from the top 10 most expensive.

 

[super frank]

It's worth noting that of the 130 dentists who've hired me the past year, not a single one making more than $250,000 from my recollection went to a school from the top 10 most expensive.

Out of your 130, how many went to the top 10 most expensive... Or perhaps a little easier... what schools were represented from the "top 10"?

 

[O Gaúcho]

lol@500k

The Most Ridiculously Expensive Dental Schools Thread

Here's What Dental School Could Cost for the Class of 2021

 

[deleted696582]

Wow there are a lot of debt threads on here. Student Debt Network?

 

[Alpha Centauri]

The Most Ridiculously Expensive Dental Schools Thread

Here's What Dental School Could Cost for the Class of 2021

I know what the numbers are. But just because they're on SDN doesn't mean they are true. I forecast a debt number no where near the 500k mark for myself

 

[O Gaúcho]

I know what the numbers are. But just because they're on SDN doesn't mean they are true. I forecast a debt number no where near the 500k mark for myself

I'm glad you have a coping mechanisms to deal with reality. But I doubt you are a better financial forecaster than @Student Loan Planner.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

I agree with most of the stuff you say, but this. It's already hard enough to get into medicine let alone a surgical specialty. I don't think med is an alternative for most of the people going to expensive d schools. Even then, making $1-$2M/yr and working over 70-80 hours a week is butt. Most orthos around me average that and I'll tell you they're working, at most, half those hours. Dent vs med in terms of $$$ isn't clear cut. Med is more guaranteed, but you will lose time and you won't have a choice.

My uncle owns a plastic surgical center and he does make bank. Until 80% of the overhead is taken out of the picture. Trust me, it is grueling work and imo it isn't worth it. However, he is the most loving and caring person I know. He truly is my role model albeit I wish he worked less and enjoyed life more. Not to say that his life is torture, he has things to justify his hard work. But making money at the expense of a large part of your happiness is a huge trade off

 

[Alpha Centauri]

I'm glad you have a coping mechanisms to deal with reality. But I doubt you are a better financial forecaster than @Student Loan Planner.

Friends are supposed to trust each other

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Exactly. By me, all the children of MDs are told stay away...especially the "rich" ones. Seriously

My dad sacrificed his entire life enjoyment and personal health for us... ask me how I know

 

[SmileItsLife]

It's what I've heard from clients and readers about the things their administrators and financial aid office has allegedly said. The cost of attendance on their website is below what I've been seeing from all the recent grads I've spoken with.

Agree with you that if you don't go top 10 it's a waste of time and money unless your company pays for it while you work.



Temple is ok, still expensive but you'll have a chance of paying it back and probably one of the cheapest in the northeast.



I'd suggest medicine. The docs who own surgical centers can sometimes make $1-$2 million particularly in Texas. The most successful dentist I've ever spoken with was making about $500,000-$600,000 per year. So if you want to make money then medicine is still the best place to do it. Just avoid primary care and pediatrics and have a lot of stamina for years of training.



I'd say you need to look for a job that respects you more. Maybe consider trying for a different field like consulting, finance, product management, or something like that?

I googled starting salaries for the state university I went to and the range for bachelor's degrees on average is comfortably in the range I stated: University of Florida (UF) School Salary, Average Salaries by Degree | PayScale

I clicked on your link. Under BS data: half of the jobs were engineering, which I said would make it in your range. Engineering jobs usually require engineering degrees.... or at least the knowledge that comes with an engineering degree.

The other half was business jobs. There weren't any natural science jobs unless you count project manger (unspecified) which is not usually an entry level position.

Of course you can tell people to find a field that has more demand. You don't have to get a job in what you majored in.....but most predents will first look for a job in the field they studied.

If you are looking for an entry level job in the natural science industry with a bachelors + no experience - it will be around $30k, no doubt. The way you are informed on this topic makes me skeptical about how your knowledge on other topics.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

OP, thanks for discussing your opinions. What do you think about schools like Penn and Columbia? Do you think those schools are more worth the investment than schools like NYU, USC, tufts, etc.

If you're planning on a residency after dental school, since so many charge tuition, it only makes more sense to go to the cheapest school you get into. Unless, you want to be that orthodontist with $800,000+ in student loans. Before you go there, you can specialize out of any school!

Big Hoss

 

[Alpha Centauri]

I can only hope he didn't pick a surg specialty. Worst. Hours. Ever.

OBGYN has no hours if you're on call 24/7

 

[8_man]

O_______o

 

[wengerout]

The docs who own surgical centers can sometimes make $1-$2 million particularly in Texas. The most successful dentist I've ever spoken with was making about $500,000-$600,000 per year. So if you want to make money then medicine is still the best place to do it. Just avoid primary care and pediatrics and have a lot of stamina for years of training.

I agree with most of the stuff you say, but this. It's already hard enough to get into medicine let alone a surgical specialty. I don't think med is an alternative for most of the people going to expensive d schools. Even then, making $1-$2M/yr and working over 70-80 hours a week is butt. Most orthos around me average that and I'll tell you they're working, at most, half those hours. Dent vs med in terms of $$$ isn't clear cut. Med is more guaranteed, but you will lose time and you won't have a choice.

Yeah echoing what @maga1994 said, I think one needs to really consider the trade-offs with surgery. Yes you make more but you have to work much longer hours/deal with much more stress than you do already as a dentist. I would love to see a breakdown of the top 25% dentist salary vs. the average surgery salary and see how much they are off combined with the extra years to make money/start a practice not spend in residency.

Part of why I am split on OMFS vs. GP (and why I will wait until I am deep into anatomy lab/clinic to make the decision based on how I like the procedures) is due to this analysis. Do OMFS on average make way more than a GP? Yes! However, besides 4-6 years of lost income, all the time spent in residency is years that your loans spend building interest. In the meantime, a GP can start earning a salary, pay off their loans, and open a practice. Even if the OMFS absolutely KILLS it and is making a $500k-1 million a year when it's all said and done, would they be better off than the GP who is making maybe $300k+ who paid off his debts sooner, didn't have to deal with an 80 hour a week residency, and gets to "enjoy" their money for a longer period of time?

Of course, this depends on how hard it is to earn $300-600k as a dentist (while remaining ethical). A lot of dentist out there either don't own a practice or become complacent with their earnings, so it's kind of hard to determine how much the "go getter" dentist are making.

 

[wengerout]

If you're planning on a residency after dental school, since so many charge tuition, it only makes more sense to go to the cheapest school you get into. Unless, you want to be that orthodontist with $800,000+ in student loans. Before you go there, you can specialize out of any school!

Big Hoss

I think this is the reason OMFS and Peds programs that don't charge tuition are most popular among those going to the Ivy's. Still, there are some Ortho programs that don't charge tuition as well. I expect however that with all the smoke surrounding Ortho such as GP intrusion and saturation, less and less dental students will opt to go to these Ortho programs charging ridiculous tuition.

I know I can speak for myself when I can say (as of now anyway) the only speciality I would consider would be OMFS, partially for the aforementioned reasons. I'm still going to shadow all of them, but on paper OMFS seems to be the only one currently that is worth the time investment for the next 30+ years that I will be (hopefully) practicing. Peds I am simply not cut for personality wise, and the others seem to all have their red flags in terms of future earnings vs. time and $$$ invested.

 

[Auntymarkovnikov]

there's so much tension in this

Why is UOP on that list? What about the fact that you start working a year early and only pay for 3 years of housing as opposed to 4?(assuming you go back home afterwards).

omg I know right?