PM&R Rank List Advice

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AKstudoc

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Looking for advice on my rank list. As far as fellowships go, leaning toward sports/pain. Just looking for input from anyone who has trained at any of these institutions and the pros and cons they have. Obviously this is a personal decision but I want to glean any insight possible.

Mayo Rochester
Northwestern
Rush
Georgetown Medstar
University of Washington Seattle
University of Utah
Loma Linda
San Antonio
Lousiana State New Orleans
Vanderbilt

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I'm very bias...but I love Mayo. I wouldn't have done it any other way. But it is a very personal decision. You have to feel comfortable with the program and the location. Here's my VERY biased Pro-Con list.

PROS:
- There is only one Mayo Clinic. There is a reason why it selfishly hogs the US News Top Ranked hospital. It really is like Disneyland for Doctors (credit DoctorJay).
- The outpatient exposure is VERY LIKELY the best in the country and/or world. Enormous emphasis on learning to do things the right way with a very good and well-structured anatomy, physical exam, ultrasound, and research courses. I'd be surprised if MSK ultrasound is as strong at any other program in the country. Mayo may be one of the few places that you not only will be very good at MSK ultrasound injections, but also be able to incorporate it into EMG and use it diagnostically (though some residents will be better than others based on the work you put in). It's really next level good. We do 6 months of EMG...including a course where you learn the science of EMG before you even get to touch a patient. You do so many EMGs, including rare pathology that you probably only see at a handful of places through the country, that you are functioning at pretty damn close to a fellowship level by the time you leave. It fulfills the preceptorship period requirement for board certification...so it is legitimately a way to get board certified in electrodiagnostics without a fellowship. We rotate through Mayo Sports Med and Pain...two VERY good departments.
- Historically...people do what they want coming from Mayo. I think that it's important to have a program that will keep the doors open for fellowship. Honestly, I don't even know the last time a resident DIDN'T get what they want in regards to a practice or fellowship. Last year we have four of our resident match to elite Sports programs, two to elite Pain programs, and two that went straight into practice (by choice). This year we had two that went into elite Sports programs, one to elite Pain program, and three that went straight into practice (again by choice). My class is a bit different in that we have about half of our class that want to do inpatient type fellowships...and I'd bet a very large sum of money that every one of them will get what they want. Why? Because Mayo is VERY reputable across the board for all subspecialties. We have excellent research exposure and opportunities. And quite frankly, it is difficult for many programs to compete with our outpatient exposure. The program is so good and well rounded that many residents, including myself, decide to go straight into practice. Mayo rarely doesn't take internal applicants for fellowship. We have two Sports spots (one in Rochester and another in Minneapolis)...both elite. There is also Mayo Jacksonville that has one spot...it's a FP fellowship but has accepted PM&R from Mayo in the past. We typically have 2 of the 5 Pain spots at Mayo Rochester...another elite program (and probably the best that also incorporates ultrasound). There is one Pain spot at Mayo Jacksonville which has also taken Mayo PM&R in the past, and their current PD is PM&R. There are 2 spots at Mayo Arizona and they have accepted Mayo PM&R in the past. We also have a Brain fellowship and Pediatrics fellowship at Mayo Rochester. You have the opportunity to rotate at all of the Mayo sites, if you'd like. And if you don't want to do fellowship at a Mayo site...you will still likely get what you want. We have had two residents match to Andrews Institutes one and only Sports Med spot over the past four years. We've had a number of residents who have done oversees rotation...just another way to separate yourself from the pack when it comes to fellowship. Our research conference policy is insane...you will see a huge Mayo representation at every major PM&R conference.
- It's hard to imagine a program that is more supportive of their residents. Our PD and leadership are phenomenal and do what it takes to help their residents. Our attendings are excellent physicians, teachers, and resident advocates. Process improvement is taken very seriously...not only for quality of patient care, but also resident work-life balance and productivity. There are many process that are in place at Mayo that I'd be surprised are present anywhere else. We take care of complex patients here...but our processes make it VERY manageable. If you have a sick kid? No problem...Mayo allows you to use a sick day for your kid. Or you could take your kiddo to Mayo R&R which is a "sick-kid" daycare where nursing will watch him/her and if needed a NP or Pediatrician will see him/her. It's stuff like that...and there are TONS of other examples both at work and outside of work of processes that make you life more simple and stress-free.
- Cost of living. Very low COL. Many residents own houses, and I've known a number of residents who have made money selling their house after three years. Incredibly quick turn around on home sales. If you read white coat investor (which you should) you'd know that home ownership during residency is generally not a good idea...but Rochester is probably one of the few places that may not apply.

CONS:
- Can something be too good? Mayo is a medical fantasyland, and I'm 100% certain that the next place I work won't be as efficient, the support staff won't be as good, the therapists won't be as good, and all of the processes that made my life easier while here will probably vanquish. In other words...back to reality. That may be a problem for residents that have been under the Mayo umbrella their entire lives. If you are concerned about Mayo being TOO good...you could do your Transitional Internship elsewhere.
- Rochester is safe. We don't get a TON of polytrauma from violence. So...less gun shot wounds and stabs. So if you are 100% sold on SCI...I'd expect to see less traumatic SCIs than some places and much more medically complex SCI. We have had plenty of residents that have went on to do SCI at excellent academic centers such as Craig, and they felt that our inpatient training was still very good and prepared them for fellowship/practice.
- It's cold here. I'm from the South and I like the change...but if you HATE the cold, it's at least something to consider. At the very least, at least plan on owning a nice jacket, nice boots, plus/minus snow blower.
- Rochester is not a small town, there are plenty of restaurants and bars and entertainment. But if you are the type of person who has lived in a place like NYC your entire life, and are anxious when you not in that type of environment, it's at least something to consider. Rochester will grow considerably over the next 20 years due to Destination Medical Center, as the state is dumping over $6 billion in Rochester to improve the infrastructure. We will be getting tons of new downtown housing, restaurants, bars, and entertainment. There may not be a better city in the country for families...Rochester is the safest and cleanest place I've ever lived (I've lived throughout the country), and the schools are among the best in the country.
- Consider co-location issues. If you are in a committed relationship...sometimes you have to make sacrifices to put yourself in a position to thrive in residency and maintain a good work-life balance. Not a con toward Mayo...but it's just a reason why I could see someone not wanting to come to Mayo.
 
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Thank you very much for your input. Mayo is definitely a contender for my number 1 spot. I worried about the Mayo medical fantasy land being an issue when trying to work in healthcare outside of their system, so doing a prelim or TY may be the play for me now.
 
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Thank you very much for your input. Mayo is definitely a contender for my number 1 spot. I worried about the Mayo medical fantasy land being an issue when trying to work in healthcare outside of their system, so doing a prelim or TY may be the play for me now.

Our TY is very good according to the residents who attended. I think that dropping Mayo down the list for being too good would be a mistake. Physicians are typically pretty adaptable, and I’m sure you’ll adjust to your practice regardless of the situation. But I do think coming from a different healthcare structure allows me to better appreciate Mayo.
 
Once again, thanks for the input. I really appreciate it.
 
If you’re interested in pain, why is LSU so low? Don’t they have a really strong training emphasis on outpatient/pain? That’s a great looking list though!
 
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If you’re interested in pain, why is LSU so low? Don’t they have a really strong training emphasis on outpatient/pain? That’s a great looking list though!

That list is in no particular order. LSU and their pain fellowship are still a very high consideration for me!
 
As an intern at my program and I have 93 peripheral joint injections including ultrasound guided and assessment of all joints with US and feel very comfortable using ultrasound to help diagnose pathologies. So any program will teach MSK well, I just stay late after clinic to practice and work on my skills


I'm very bias...but I love Mayo. I wouldn't have done it any other way. But it is a very personal decision. You have to feel comfortable with the program and the location. Here's my VERY biased Pro-Con list.

PROS:
- There is only one Mayo Clinic. There is a reason why it selfishly hogs the US News Top Ranked hospital. It really is like Disneyland for Doctors (credit DoctorJay).
- The outpatient exposure is VERY LIKELY the best in the country and/or world. Enormous emphasis on learning to do things the right way with a very good and well-structured anatomy, physical exam, ultrasound, and research courses. I'd be surprised if MSK ultrasound is as strong at any other program in the country. Mayo may be one of the few places that you not only will be very good at MSK ultrasound injections, but also be able to incorporate it into EMG and use it diagnostically (though some residents will be better than others based on the work you put in). It's really next level good. We do 6 months of EMG...including a course where you learn the science of EMG before you even get to touch a patient. You do so many EMGs, including rare pathology that you probably only see at a handful of places through the country, that you are functioning at pretty damn close to a fellowship level by the time you leave. It fulfills the preceptorship period requirement for board certification...so it is legitimately a way to get board certified in electrodiagnostics without a fellowship. We rotate through Mayo Sports Med and Pain...two VERY good departments.
- Historically...people do what they want coming from Mayo. I think that it's important to have a program that will keep the doors open for fellowship. Honestly, I don't even know the last time a resident DIDN'T get what they want in regards to a practice or fellowship. Last year we have four of our resident match to elite Sports programs, two to elite Pain programs, and two that went straight into practice (by choice). This year we had two that went into elite Sports programs, one to elite Pain program, and three that went straight into practice (again by choice). My class is a bit different in that we have about half of our class that want to do inpatient type fellowships...and I'd bet a very large sum of money that every one of them will get what they want. Why? Because Mayo is VERY reputable across the board for all subspecialties. We have excellent research exposure and opportunities. And quite frankly, it is difficult for many programs to compete with our outpatient exposure. The program is so good and well rounded that many residents, including myself, decide to go straight into practice. Mayo rarely doesn't take internal applicants for fellowship. We have two Sports spots (one in Rochester and another in Minneapolis)...both elite. There is also Mayo Jacksonville that has one spot...it's a FP fellowship but has accepted PM&R from Mayo in the past. We typically have 2 of the 5 Pain spots at Mayo Rochester...another elite program (and probably the best that also incorporates ultrasound). There is one Pain spot at Mayo Jacksonville which has also taken Mayo PM&R in the past, and their current PD is PM&R. There are 2 spots at Mayo Arizona and they have accepted Mayo PM&R in the past. We also have a Brain fellowship and Pediatrics fellowship at Mayo Rochester. You have the opportunity to rotate at all of the Mayo sites, if you'd like. And if you don't want to do fellowship at a Mayo site...you will still likely get what you want. We have had two residents match to Andrews Institutes one and only Sports Med spot over the past four years. We've had a number of residents who have done oversees rotation...just another way to separate yourself from the pack when it comes to fellowship. Our research conference policy is insane...you will see a huge Mayo representation at every major PM&R conference.
- It's hard to imagine a program that is more supportive of their residents. Our PD and leadership are phenomenal and do what it takes to help their residents. Our attendings are excellent physicians, teachers, and resident advocates. Process improvement is taken very seriously...not only for quality of patient care, but also resident work-life balance and productivity. There are many process that are in place at Mayo that I'd be surprised are present anywhere else. We take care of complex patients here...but our processes make it VERY manageable. If you have a sick kid? No problem...Mayo allows you to use a sick day for your kid. Or you could take your kiddo to Mayo R&R which is a "sick-kid" daycare where nursing will watch him/her and if needed a NP or Pediatrician will see him/her. It's stuff like that...and there are TONS of other examples both at work and outside of work of processes that make you life more simple and stress-free.
- Cost of living. Very low COL. Many residents own houses, and I've known a number of residents who have made money selling their house after three years. Incredibly quick turn around on home sales. If you read white coat investor (which you should) you'd know that home ownership during residency is generally not a good idea...but Rochester is probably one of the few places that may not apply.

CONS:
- Can something be too good? Mayo is a medical fantasyland, and I'm 100% certain that the next place I work won't be as efficient, the support staff won't be as good, the therapists won't be as good, and all of the processes that made my life easier while here will probably vanquish. In other words...back to reality. That may be a problem for residents that have been under the Mayo umbrella their entire lives. If you are concerned about Mayo being TOO good...you could do your Transitional Internship elsewhere.
- Rochester is safe. We don't get a TON of polytrauma from violence. So...less gun shot wounds and stabs. So if you are 100% sold on SCI...I'd expect to see less traumatic SCIs than some places and much more medically complex SCI. We have had plenty of residents that have went on to do SCI at excellent academic centers such as Craig, and they felt that our inpatient training was still very good and prepared them for fellowship/practice.
- It's cold here. I'm from the South and I like the change...but if you HATE the cold, it's at least something to consider. At the very least, at least plan on owning a nice jacket, nice boots, plus/minus snow blower.
- Rochester is not a small town, there are plenty of restaurants and bars and entertainment. But if you are the type of person who has lived in a place like NYC your entire life, and are anxious when you not in that type of environment, it's at least something to consider. Rochester will grow considerably over the next 20 years due to Destination Medical Center, as the state is dumping over $6 billion in Rochester to improve the infrastructure. We will be getting tons of new downtown housing, restaurants, bars, and entertainment. There may not be a better city in the country for families...Rochester is the safest and cleanest place I've ever lived (I've lived throughout the country), and the schools are among the best in the country.
- Consider co-location issues. If you are in a committed relationship...sometimes you have to make sacrifices to put yourself in a position to thrive in residency and maintain a good work-life balance. Not a con toward Mayo...but it's just a reason why I could see someone not wanting to come to Mayo.
 
As an intern at my program and I have 93 peripheral joint injections including ultrasound guided and assessment of all joints with US and feel very comfortable using ultrasound to help diagnose pathologies. So any program will teach MSK well, I just stay late after clinic to practice and work on my skills

Those are pretty impressive stats for intern year. Is that a categorical intern year? What program?
 
As an intern at my program and I have 93 peripheral joint injections including ultrasound guided and assessment of all joints with US and feel very comfortable using ultrasound to help diagnose pathologies. So any program will teach MSK well, I just stay late after clinic to practice and work on my skills

Mayo typically quadruples the ultrasound guided injection total of average programs, and doubles the total number of injections. Those are ACGME stats. We spend months on ultrasound in didactics and get tested on it yearly. We have an ultrasound guided cadaver course. We learn ultrasound in the context of EMG diagnostic criteria. On our pain rotations we perform diagnostic and therapeutic blocks with ultrasound guidance.

I highly doubt MSK ultrasound is taught as well anywhere in this country as Mayo PM&R. Certainly...there are residents who don’t care a ton about MSK and don’t go out of their way to learn it outside of work hours, and residents from other programs can close the gap by filling their elective time and studying hard outside of work hours. But I’m confident in saying that we have the best MSK curriculum and that the average Mayo resident has a pretty significant advantage over the average resident from other programs in regards to MSK.
 
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