Podiatry does NOT equal Medical school

[air bud]

I knew this post existed, but apparently you dont have anything better to be doing. i didnt want to take the time to find this. I chose the path of least resistance, I didnt want Jaggerplate yelling at me anymore. You will learn this technique when you are married a little longer

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[JaggerPlate]

phillypd is a she and is in Temple's MD program...you should do a little better research.

I've responded to this multiple times now ... I'm uncertain.

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/OP_Home/ssact/title18/1861.htm#act-1861-r defines physician...
"The term “physician”, when used in connection with the performance of any function or action, means...(3) a doctor of podiatric medicine"

In between it labels (1)MD/DO's and (2) a doctor of dental surgery/medicine.

I really don't want this war to continue, but I think you've misinterpreted that document ...

essentially, it puts the following practitioners under the umbrella of physician:

DO/MD, Optometrist, Dentist, Chiropractor, and Pod. Do you really think Chiropractors and Optometrists are physicians???

Additionally, it states that only DO/MDs are allowed to practice 'medicine and surgery' in accordance with the state laws. Podiatrists are able to practice 'podiatric medicine' based on the state's laws. To me, this is still a big distinction. Additionally, I'm not sure the definitions in the social security act would trump current descriptions from, say, the department of labor (or whichever organization Sideways shared)

That's exactly what I'm saying. I wanted to be a pod, not an MD. I wanted to practice many types of medicine while specializing on one part of the body. Can't do that as an MD or DO, where you tend to specialize in a type of medicine and then practice all over the body. I like my profession and have no reason to be insecure about our education, training, scope, etc.

Good! I'm glad to hear that you found a field that fits you well. However, I'm still a bit unsure why you'd want this field (which you are proud/secure about) to be referred to as something else???

Additionally, I do think DO/MDs can 'practice many types of medicine while specializing on one part of the body.' I don't think many people would argue that the ability to specialize or generalize is far more liberal from the DO/MD side than the DPM.

However, the point is that I'm glad you found a program that fit!!

Since I've been in pod school I feel my education is much more similar to a DO's than you realize. Of course you are at a program that isn't affiliated with a podiatry program so you wouldn't really know. You will never agree with my opinion so I guess there is no point posting on the matter anymore?

I know the education is similar. The first two years are quite similar. BUT, that doesn't mean it's 'medical school.'

The profession itself or the education?

I have no interesting in bashing/putting down either.

 

[dtrack22]

I wouldn't be surprised if she really did attend a pod program, but everything in that post "reads" MD. Basically, it wouldn't surprise me if philly was lying. I was wondering about philly's affiliation like a week ago and stumbled across that thread, didn't have to dig anything up tonight.

As for my wife, she knows I wear the pants...quit being a coward and stand up to her for once.

JaggerPlate,
I get that you respect the profession and that you are basing your posts on your definition of medical school. Again, I tell people that I go to podiatry school, that I am a podiatry student, etc. I just have a different definition of medical school. And while I don't personally claim to be in medical school, I completely understand how you can make the argument that a podiatry student is in medical school.

I consider medical school an institution that teaches medicine. With medicine being defined as the art and science of healing (Science being the "evidence-based" aspect of medicine). Podiatry school does that.

If that's too broad a definition then I could use the more narrow definition that medical school is a graduate school that leads to a "medical degree", meaning MD. DO's wouldn't be included in that definition though.

The point is that we all (MD, DO, DPM...) practice medicine upon completion of at least 7 years of medical training. You would agree to that if you've observed a well trained podiatrist. So why do you care if a random individual on a message board calls himself a medical student?

 

[JaggerPlate]

I wouldn't be surprised if she really did attend a pod program, but everything in that post "reads" MD. Basically, it wouldn't surprise me if philly was lying. I was wondering about philly's affiliation like a week ago and stumbled across that thread, didn't have to dig anything up tonight.

As for my wife, she knows I wear the pants...quit being a coward and stand up to her for once.

JaggerPlate,
I get that you respect the profession and that you are basing your posts on your definition of medical school. Again, I tell people that I go to podiatry school, that I am a podiatry student, etc. I just have a different definition of medical school. And while I don't personally claim to be in medical school, I completely understand how you can make the argument that a podiatry student is in medical school.

I consider medical school an institution that teaches medicine. With medicine being defined as the art and science of healing (Science being the "evidence-based" aspect of medicine). Podiatry school does that.

If that's too broad a definition then I could use the more narrow definition that medical school is a graduate school that leads to a "medical degree", meaning MD. DO's wouldn't be included in that definition though.

The point is that we all (MD, DO, DPM...) practice medicine upon completion of at least 7 years of medical training. You would agree to that if you've observed a well trained podiatrist. So why do you care if a random individual on a message board calls himself a medical student?

Nicely said

Frankly, I shouldn't care at all. I really didn't mean for this to end up as such a deep debate.

To be honest, I think what bothers me the most in health care right now is the fact that everyone wants the physician label without the time spent in medical school or stressors/responsibilities. Go look at any of the 'Doctor of Nursing Practice' debates where nurse practitioners claim they are better than physicians and should be able to get a PhD in nursing and practice independently as a 'doctor' with 1/10th the training of DO/MDs.

Now, Pods really don't do this, at all. Let me be very clear about that. Much like DOs, Pods have worked hard and proved themselves as important, capable providers. However, I still base my definition of 'physician' as a MD/DO who went to medical school (which I define as a MD/DO granting college).

Having said that, I think my reaction comes from a combination of becoming increasingly tired with people claiming they are as good as physicians, are technically physicians, should be physicians, etc, without wanting to put in the work WHILE I'm currently putting in the work and my own definition of what medical school is.

Again, I mean nothing negative towards Pods. If I offended or look like a little know-it-all, that really wasn't my intent. I feel as if I have an understanding of what Pods go through training wise and I've seen what they can do in practice (which is impressive). I know I'll have 100% confidence referring patients to DPMs for foot and ankle issues in the future. This whole thing pretty much sprung from me casually wanting to put my .02 in about the definition of 'medical school' and forgetting I was on SDN (lol)!

 

[slick27]

I don't know why this is even being debated. No one outside of medicine gives a ****.

 

[dtrack22]

Nicely said

Frankly, I shouldn't care at all. I really didn't mean for this to end up as such a deep debate.

To be honest, I think what bothers me the most in health care right now is the fact that everyone wants the physician label without the time spent in medical school or stressors/responsibilities. Go look at any of the 'Doctor of Nursing Practice' debates where nurse practitioners claim they are better than physicians and should be able to get a PhD in nursing and practice independently as a 'doctor' with 1/10th the training of DO/MDs.

Now, Pods really don't do this, at all. Let me be very clear about that. Much like DOs, Pods have worked hard and proved themselves as important, capable providers. However, I still base my definition of 'physician' as a MD/DO who went to medical school (which I define as a MD/DO granting college).

Having said that, I think my reaction comes from a combination of becoming increasingly tired with people claiming they are as good as physicians, are technically physicians, should be physicians, etc, without wanting to put in the work WHILE I'm currently putting in the work and my own definition of what medical school is.

Again, I mean nothing negative towards Pods. If I offended or look like a little know-it-all, that really wasn't my intent. I feel as if I have an understanding of what Pods go through training wise and I've seen what they can do in practice (which is impressive). I know I'll have 100% confidence referring patients to DPMs for foot and ankle issues in the future. This whole thing pretty much sprung from me casually wanting to put my .02 in about the definition of 'medical school' and forgetting I was on SDN (lol)!

I guess if these last two posts had been the first two, this thread would never have jumped to 3 pages. I finally agree with you...

 

[JaggerPlate]

I guess if these last two posts had been the first two, this thread would never have jumped to 3 pages. I finally agree with you...

Hahaha for sure. If that was the case though, SDN wouldn't exist. Where else would highly trained professionals bicker endlessly via a series of knee-jerk reactions, anecdotal experiences, and vague assumptions

 

[uberconfuzzled]

I know this subject has been beaten to the ground, but I just had to say this:

A podiatry student probably did not go to an MD/DO school.
An MD/DO student probably did not go to a podiatry school.
So, unless you completed both programs, I dont think you have very much credibility in stating whether or not they are equal in education and training. And that goes for ALL other programs, too.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

essentially, it puts the following practitioners under the umbrella of physician:

DO/MD, Optometrist, Dentist, Chiropractor, and Pod. Do you really think Chiropractors and Optometrists are physicians???

Why does everyone always associate ODs and DCs? OD's practice the same medicine that ophthomologists do just without the surgery. Same drugs, same diseases, same diagnostic tools, just minus the surgery.

Chiropractors, whether or not you think they are of value, don't follow any other medical model but their own.

Its also worth remembering that it was not too long ago that us MDs would've been horrified had DOs tried to claim that they went to medical school and were our equals.

 

[Shireiqiang]

I am currently at an integrated program with DPM/DO students. I prefer to say podiatry school because I am going to be a podiatrist and that is an easy way to avoid the question about what specialties I'm considering. I am taking the same classes at the same time as the DO's and sitting next to them in class, but it's still podiatry school.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Its also worth remembering that it was not too long ago that us MDs would've been horrified had DOs tried to claim that they went to medical school and were our equals.

Why do people keep falling back on this wildly unrelated point. Put it this way ...

100 years ago, women couldn't vote. Would you find this fact relevant today if a female politician argued a point with which you disagreed? Of course not! It's completely unrelated. In the same vein, when DOs are arguing a point that has to do with modern day medicine, what good does it do to say that 40 years ago, DOs struggled to practice universally?????

 

[dtrack22]

Why do people keep falling back on this wildly unrelated point.

Or you could put it this way...

DO's used to be the repressed. They were the slaves (if we're gonna use radical illustrations). You weren't real doctors, more like 3/5 of a doctor.

Now many DO's come across as the slave masters. They feel they are superior and have their own slaves. In this case, the pod students are the whipping boys.

Regardless of whether you agree (or what my opinion is so you don't start arguing with me), THAT is the reason you keep hearing this argument. Because people assume that individuals who came from similar beginnings may be sympathetic to the podiatric plight. If you want to be so dramatic as to call it a "plight".

 

[All4MyDaughter]

It's getting kind of crazy in here. Did someone really just equate this issue with SLAVERY? Good, I must have imagined that...

People are using "not equivalent" interchangeably with "superior/inferior." They really don't mean the same thing, do they?

The training of a chemical engineer is not equivalent to the training of an architect. They are different professions, so they learn different things in school. There is nothing offensive about that, is there?

The training of an MD/DO is not equivalent to that of a podiatrist. Why would that statement be more offensive than the one above? Would it be less offensive if I said "the training of an MD/DO is not IDENTICAL to that of a podiatrist?" They might be equally rigorous, equally challenging, equally taxing, but they aren't equivalent, are they?

Can't we all just get along?

 

[sideways]

It's getting kind of crazy in here. Did someone really just equate this issue with SLAVERY? Good, I must have imagined that...

People are using "not equivalent" interchangeably with "superior/inferior." They really don't mean the same thing, do they?

The training of a chemical engineer is not equivalent to the training of an architect. They are different professions, so they learn different things in school. There is nothing offensive about that, is there?

The training of an MD/DO is not equivalent to that of a podiatrist. Why would that statement be more offensive than the one above? Would it be less offensive if I said "the training of an MD/DO is not IDENTICAL to that of a podiatrist?" They might be equally rigorous, equally challenging, equally taxing, but they aren't equivalent, are they?

Can't we all just get along?

It's funny you bring this up. Because I'm a DO student and I've been telling everyone I meet that I'm in podiatry school. My dad was like WTF are you talking about, and I told him to back off, we learn the same thing, except for ObGyn.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Why do people keep falling back on this wildly unrelated point. Put it this way ...

100 years ago, women couldn't vote. Would you find this fact relevant today if a female politician argued a point with which you disagreed? Of course not! It's completely unrelated. In the same vein, when DOs are arguing a point that has to do with modern day medicine, what good does it do to say that 40 years ago, DOs struggled to practice universally?????

Because just like DOs eventually got recognized as equal to MDs, so are podiatrists getting more and more into mainstream medicine.

 

[347932]

The dead horse is still dead folks...

 

[JaggerPlate]

Or you could put it this way...

DO's used to be the repressed. They were the slaves (if we're gonna use radical illustrations). You weren't real doctors, more like 3/5 of a doctor.

Now many DO's come across as the slave masters. They feel they are superior and have their own slaves. In this case, the pod students are the whipping boys.

Regardless of whether you agree (or what my opinion is so you don't start arguing with me), THAT is the reason you keep hearing this argument. Because people assume that individuals who came from similar beginnings may be sympathetic to the podiatric plight. If you want to be so dramatic as to call it a "plight".

Dude ... really??????!!!??

It's getting kind of crazy in here. Did someone really just equate this issue with SLAVERY? Good, I must have imagined that...

People are using "not equivalent" interchangeably with "superior/inferior." They really don't mean the same thing, do they?

The training of a chemical engineer is not equivalent to the training of an architect. They are different professions, so they learn different things in school. There is nothing offensive about that, is there?

The training of an MD/DO is not equivalent to that of a podiatrist. Why would that statement be more offensive than the one above? Would it be less offensive if I said "the training of an MD/DO is not IDENTICAL to that of a podiatrist?" They might be equally rigorous, equally challenging, equally taxing, but they aren't equivalent, are they?

Can't we all just get along?

Wheww ... THANK YOU.

Because just like DOs eventually got recognized as equal to MDs, so are podiatrists getting more and more into mainstream medicine.

Still has 0 percent relevance to the current discussion (as illustrated via my politics example).

 

[stigmata]

Wow, this argument is more bizarre and irrelevant than the crap in the psychology forum...and that is saying A LOT!

 

[janV88]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the reason you DOs put up Osteopathic Hospitals before was because you were blocked by MDs from getting hospital privileges?

Dtrack and VA Hopeful Dr do have a point. You would think that since DOs were seen as 2nd class citizens (40, 50, whatever years ago) that they would be more sympathetic and understanding of what DPMs are going through.

Ok, maybe the DOs in this thread are genuinely saying that the education is not equal...just different. But in the real world there are DOs and MDs saying that the education is not equal therefore DPMs should not get hospital/surgical privileges or get reimbursed the same for the same procedures since DPMs are not physicians, etc.

 

[ucd]

Not to dump more oil onto a burning fire.....but if DO students really feel like they are equivalent to their MD counterparts why are almost half of all DO residencies left empty every year? Why don't DO students just be happy with just taking the comlex and matching into a AOA residency? Instead they decide to bite the bullet and take the USMLE as well. If the DO and MD curriculum were the same, why don't MD residency accept the comlex...technically the board exam should be even harder cause it test basic science and OMT right??

I have many friends that are DO students so I'm definitely not bashing the profession. However, the point i'm trying to get across is that everyone interprets the word MEDICAL SCHOOL differently. Is medical school a place where one can study medicine? or is it a place that offers a MEDICAL DEGREE (MD)? DO=Doctor of Osteopathic MEDICINE and DPM= Doctor of Podiatric MEDICINE. I don't think pod students that say they go to medical schools is really lying to anyone..b/c it is medical school...the study of medicine. However, I say i go to podiatry school b/c i'm proud of what i do and I take the (blank stare i get sometimes) as an opportunity to explain my future profession and our scope of practice.

 

[UNVME2]

..why are almost half of all DO residencies left empty every year?

..because they're matching with MD students.

However, the point i'm trying to get across is that everyone interprets the word MEDICAL SCHOOL differently.

Maybe in the pre-pod and pod arena baby, but that will change quickly when you get to your medical rotations. You start calling yourself a medical student in a hospital and you'll be laughed out to the street.

Professionally we may do a lot of things allopathic students do, but if you want to define things the way most professionals do, which is by how the laws and governing bodies define things, podiatry is not even a medical sub-specialty.

So, let's cut the $hit and get back to work.

 

[janV88]

..because they're matching with MD students.

MD students can't enter the DO match...

You start calling yourself a medical student in a hospital and you'll be laughed out to the street.

And that's why 3rd/4th year podiatry students have to refer to themselves as MS3 and MS4 on their rotations...

BTW, just as ucd stated, I also call myself a podiatry student and explain the profession/scope of practice to people who aren't aware of us.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the reason you DOs put up Osteopathic Hospitals before was because you were blocked by MDs from getting hospital privileges?

Dtrack and VA Hopeful Dr do have a point. You would think that since DOs were seen as 2nd class citizens (40, 50, whatever years ago) that they would be more sympathetic and understanding of what DPMs are going through.

Ok, maybe the DOs in this thread are genuinely saying that the education is not equal...just different. But in the real world there are DOs and MDs saying that the education is not equal therefore DPMs should not get hospital/surgical privileges or get reimbursed the same for the same procedures since DPMs are not physicians, etc.

They really don't have a 'point.' They have something which they feel is ironic or maybe even a bit interesting. Personally, I feel like things that happened 50 -100 years ago are pretty irrelevant to our current discussion.

See my politics analogy for further explanation of why it isn't a good 'point.'

Also, the 'DO' hospitals you are referring to were quite a ways back in the day. Also, back then the professions were established separately because that's the way people wanted it. The two were not the same. As time went on, DOs merged their beliefs with the wildly evolved allopathic model and began practicing in the universally accepted model. The first court case that grated a DO full practice rights in a county hospital in MO actually occured in 1950. By the early 70s, DOs had full practice rights in all 50 states.

HOWEVER ... it's irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Not to dump more oil onto a burning fire.....but if DO students really feel like they are equivalent to their MD counterparts why are almost half of all DO residencies left empty every year? Why don't DO students just be happy with just taking the comlex and matching into a AOA residency? Instead they decide to bite the bullet and take the USMLE as well. If the DO and MD curriculum were the same, why don't MD residency accept the comlex...technically the board exam should be even harder cause it test basic science and OMT right??

Many students are happy taking the COMLEX and only applying to AOA residencies. Furthermore, why wouldn't students take the COMLEX/USMLE and apply to a larger sect of programs in their field, geographical locale, etc, of choice? Seems pretty simple to me? Additionally, certain allopathic programs do accept the COMLEX. I personally know several people in PC ACGME residencies who only took the COMLEX. I think it's a bit difficult to quantify which exam is 'harder' or how the OMT component changes outcomes.

I have many friends that are DO students so I'm definitely not bashing the profession. However, the point i'm trying to get across is that everyone interprets the word MEDICAL SCHOOL differently. Is medical school a place where one can study medicine? or is it a place that offers a MEDICAL DEGREE (MD)? DO=Doctor of Osteopathic MEDICINE and DPM= Doctor of Podiatric MEDICINE. I don't think pod students that say they go to medical schools is really lying to anyone..b/c it is medical school...the study of medicine. However, I say i go to podiatry school b/c i'm proud of what i do and I take the (blank stare i get sometimes) as an opportunity to explain my future profession and our scope of practice.

Look at some of the legal definitions offered earlier in the thread. If you want to get into people's anecdotal interpretations of things, we could never solve this debate.

 

[janV88]

I feel like things that happened 50 -100 years ago are pretty irrelevant to our current discussion.

The time frame is irrelevant. At some point in the DO history, DOs were treated like 2nd class citizens and were not allowed to practice along side MDs. This is exactly what is happening to DPMs in some hospitals accross the country today. It mirrors what happened to DOs in the past and it IS ironic that DOs aren't more sympathetic.

By the early 70s, DOs had full practice rights in all 50 states.

ok not the best "source" but wikipedia says this...

In the United States, laws regulating physician licenses are governed by the states. Between 1901 to 1989, osteopathic physicians lobbied state legislatures to pass laws giving those with a DO degree the same legal privilege to practice medicine as those with an MD degree. In many states, the debate was long and protracted. Both the AOA and the AMA were heavily involved in influencing the legislative process. The first state to pass such a law was California in 1901, the last was Nebraska in 1989.[41]


1989 wasn't that long ago. And this is at the state level...I'm sure the hospital bylaws took a little longer to get changed.

 

[JaggerPlate]

The time frame is irrelevant. At some point in the DO history, DOs were treated like 2nd class citizens and were not allowed to practice along side MDs. This is exactly what is happening to DPMs in some hospitals accross the country today. It mirrors what happened to DOs in the past and it IS ironic that DOs aren't more sympathetic.

Okay so now it's gone from 'good point' to 'DOs should ...' ???

whateves.

The POINT should really be that DOs were treated like second class citizens because they came from a world that was not up to snuff with regard to Western medicine. Over the decades, DOs got to where they were because they changed the way they practice. You don't see any of the actual 'osteopaths' of today who only train in manipulation in Britain, AU, etc, claiming they should have full rights to medicine and surgery, just the same way osteopaths of the 1920s shouldn't have either.

You seem to be making far too vague of a comparison here. Keep in mind that DOs were fighting for what MDs already had. Pods aren't doing this. You guys aren't battling to be able to practice Ophthalmology and OB, you guys are just looking for due credit in the foot and ankle. If you really wanted to make the comparison of what DOs went through to what Pods are going through today (which I frankly haven't seen), then DPMs would need to change their curriculum (especially in the 3/4th years), get the schools accredited by the AOA or LCME, take the USMLE/COMLEX, pass, and become eligible to complete a residency.

In the United States, laws regulating physician licenses are governed by the states. Between 1901 to 1989, osteopathic physicians lobbied state legislatures to pass laws giving those with a DO degree the same legal privilege to practice medicine as those with an MD degree. In many states, the debate was long and protracted. Both the AOA and the AMA were heavily involved in influencing the legislative process. The first state to pass such a law was California in 1901, the last was Nebraska in 1989.[41]


1989 wasn't that long ago. And this is at the state level...I'm sure the hospital bylaws took a little longer to get changed.

The AOA says ...

1950 Court decision in Audrain County, MO, established the right of DOs to practice as complete physicians and surgeons in a county hospital. The court defined the practice of osteopathic medicine to include prescribing or administering drugs and performing surgery with instruments. (After 1950 a number of other legislative and regulatory bodies moved to provide full practice rights to DOs within their jurisdictions.) See 1973.

1973 Full practice rights in all 50 states and the District of Columbia accomplished, when Mississippi passed law granting full practice rights to DOs.

(source: http://history.osteopathic.org/timeline.shtml)

I truthfully don't know what that wiki article is referring to, but my guess is that Nebraska probably had some funny, small, antiquated law regarding DOs left on the books (that wasn't affecting anything) and finally took it off in 1989. There's something funny about that statement too because it's essentially claiming that CA gave DOs practice rights equal to MDs in 1901, which is obviously false. Osteopaths could probably be licensed in the state as early as 1901, but there is no way they had equal hospital rights back then.

So again ... 1950-1973??? A long time ago.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Van,

Just as an aside ...

for some reason the AOA says full practice rights by 73 everywhere with Mississippi being the last state, but then says '1989 in Nebraska' somewhere else. It still probably was some tiny, unnoticed restriction somewhere, but I'm having a hard time finding information on it because the just says 1973 = full practice rights everywhere else.

shrug???

 

[janV88]

Okay so now it's gone from 'good point' to 'DOs should ...' ???

I don't know what you are referring to. I never said anything about 'DOs should...'

You seem to be making far too vague of a comparison here. Keep in mind that DOs were fighting for what MDs already had. Pods aren't doing this. You guys aren't battling to be able to practice Ophthalmology and OB, you guys are just looking for due credit in the foot and ankle. If you really wanted to make the comparison of what DOs went through to what Pods are going through today (which I frankly haven't seen), then DPMs would need to change their curriculum (especially in the 3/4th years), get the schools accredited by the AOA or LCME, take the USMLE/COMLEX, pass, and become eligible to complete a residency.

Actually in some hospitals across the country, Podiatrists are fighting for hospital admitting privileges, OR privileges, Rearfoot reconstructive ankle surgery privileges (*Not the norm but it still happens). We are being blocked by a number of DOs and MDs...pretty much only orthopods...who claim that we don't have the training to do what we do because we didn't go to medical school, etc.

You are telling me that the MDs 50+ years ago didn't use the same line with DOs? And what did you guys do? Changed the curriculum but you still stuck with your own boards (COMLEX) and are still accredited by your own accrediting committee (AOA). What are Podiatrists missing in our curriculum...1 month of of OB/GYN and 1 month of Psych? But now you want us to take your boards and be accredited by you guys? This just screams double standard and this is exactly what the others were saying...

*EDIT

 

[jonwill]

Actually in some hospitals across the country, Podiatrists are fighting for hospital admitting privileges, OR privileges, Rearfoot reconstructive ankle surgery privileges. We are being blocked by a number of DOs and MDs...pretty much only orthopods...who claim that we don't have the training to do what we do because we didn't go to medical school, etc.

My only concern is that you make this sound common place. I'm sure it is still happening in isolated areas but overall, podiatrists are members of hospital staff and hold hospital/surgical privileges and do what they are trained to do. They hold staff positions, are CMO's, Chief of Surgery, etc. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but let's not blow things out of proportion.

 

[janV88]

My only concern is that you make this sound common place. I'm sure it is still happening in isolated areas but overall, podiatrists are members of hospital staff and hold hospital/surgical privileges and do what they are trained to do. They hold staff positions, are CMO's, Chief of Surgery, etc. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but let's not blow things out of proportion.

You are absolutely right. I clarified my previous post.

 

[sideways]

I don't know what you are referring to. I never said anything about 'DOs should...'



Actually in some hospitals across the country, Podiatrists are fighting for hospital admitting privileges, OR privileges, Rearfoot reconstructive ankle surgery privileges (*Not the norm but it still happens). We are being blocked by a number of DOs and MDs...pretty much only orthopods...who claim that we don't have the training to do what we do because we didn't go to medical school, etc.

You are telling me that the MDs 50+ years ago didn't use the same line with DOs? And what did you guys do? Changed the curriculum but you still stuck with your own boards (COMLEX) and are still accredited by your own accrediting committee (AOA). What are Podiatrists missing in our curriculum...1 month of of OB/GYN and 1 month of Psych? But now you want us to take your boards and be accredited by you guys? This just screams double standard and this is exactly what the others were saying...

*EDIT

The fact that you guys go into a specialty from Day 1 is where the rub is and where the difference lies. Medical school is thought of as the place where physicians in all specialties begin their training. Rightfully so too, because that indeed is the case. I have no idea why in the hell podiatry exists as a separate track in medicine, but it does. As long as that is the case, it's going to be perceived as "different." There's no way around it, no matter how highly trained you are.

 

[FootDocStudent]

Dr House says: Where are my podiatry residents and attendings? I am still waiting for a diagnosis! Stop this silly thread! Podiatrists are doctors too, just like MDs and DOs! My thread is better! Let's diagnose shall we????

 

[JaggerPlate]

I don't know what you are referring to. I never said anything about 'DOs should...'

It doesn't matter ... just know that I don't think the 'DOs went through trouble/ironic' argument is strong.

Actually in some hospitals across the country, Podiatrists are fighting for hospital admitting privileges, OR privileges, Rearfoot reconstructive ankle surgery privileges (*Not the norm but it still happens). We are being blocked by a number of DOs and MDs...pretty much only orthopods...who claim that we don't have the training to do what we do because we didn't go to medical school, etc.

Hmm ... I really haven't heard of this and jon makes it sound like it isn't overtly common.

You are telling me that the MDs 50+ years ago didn't use the same line with DOs? And what did you guys do? Changed the curriculum but you still stuck with your own boards (COMLEX) and are still accredited by your own accrediting committee (AOA). What are Podiatrists missing in our curriculum...1 month of of OB/GYN and 1 month of Psych? But now you want us to take your boards and be accredited by you guys? This just screams double standard and this is exactly what the others were saying...

*EDIT

Wheww, I find your arguments very hard to follow ... let me see what I can do:

1. Same line with DOs??? What line? What are you referring to? 'You guys aren't physicians?' If so ... they were right! A long time ago ... DOs weren't really physicians, they were 'osteopaths.' When they decided the modern methods became effective, they merged the two systems and wanted to become fully fledged physicians. The MD said no because you don't do X, Y, and Z. DOs changed so they do X, Y, and Z ... (ie: equivalent), and they were able to fight to get the same cred.

2. There are various theories as to why there are two separate tests and boards. Frankly, I struggle to see what this has to do with the argument.

3. Well, why wouldn't you need to take the existing qualifier boards? For the sake of the argument ... lets just say USMLE. If you alter the curriculum and take the USMLE (ie: equivalent) then you'll be good. However, if you wanted to bring the AOA/COMLEX into the equation, you could get everything up to an equal standard and take the Podiatry Board of We're Now Comprehensive Physicians (PBWNCP) and as long as it was viewed on par with USMLE/COMLEX, then I don't think many DOs would take issue. IF THEY DID, then, THEN it would be ironic (because you guys would have done the same thing DOs did with the COMLEX and we'd be giving you crap about it). This should eliminate the 'double standard aspect.'

The fact that you guys go into a specialty from Day 1 is where the rub is and where the difference lies. Medical school is thought of as the place where physicians in all specialties begin their training. Rightfully so too, because that indeed is the case. I have no idea why in the hell podiatry exists as a separate track in medicine, but it does. As long as that is the case, it's going to be perceived as "different." There's no way around it, no matter how highly trained you are.

qft

 

[dtrack22]

The fact that you guys go into a specialty from Day 1 is where the rub is and where the difference lies.

We begin specializing around day 1280...and even then we rotate through different specialties' services.

You guys are right, we specialize. But not as early and to the degree that you two think.

Podiatry exists because an MD found a way to grab another piece of the pie. F&A pathologies weren't being addressed by the allopathic community so Dr. Lewi opened a school and watched the $$ roll in.

 

[sideways]

We begin specializing around day 1280...and even then we rotate through different specialties' services.

You guys are right, we specialize. But not as early and to the degree that you two think.

Podiatry exists because an MD found a way to grab another piece of the pie. F&A pathologies weren't being addressed by the allopathic community so Dr. Lewi opened a school and watched the $$ roll in.

Let's not argue logistics. The fact of the matter is you know from the second you're accepted what your career is going to be. I'm in my 2nd year of medical school and have NO IDEA what mine will be. That is very different.

From the perspective of a healthcare outsider, they can't comprehend that the foot of all things has someone with greater expertise than an MD. So inevitably they think a podiatrist fixes your toenail issues, but when sh.t goes down, they go to a "real" doctor.

Do I agree with that mentality? NO. But I'm in friggin medical school - I have an awareness that very few people have. The only way podiatry is going to get around this conundrum is if they make it more difficult to get into a DPM program than an MD program. Even then, it'll take a few more generations for the prestige index to adjust.

 

[janV88]

JaggerPlate,

We aren't seeing eye to eye on this issue. Let me see if I can offer some quick back ground info on the issues facing podiatrists today so you will understand where we are coming from.

There are still 12 states that do not allow Podiatrists to treat the ankle. And even if they all allowed that tomorrow...there are countless hospitals in those states that would not allow ankle surgical privileges overnight. New York seems to be finally turning around but we shall see what happens with that in the next coming months. The orthopods have a lot of power there. In Texas, a few orthopods are fighting to remove the ankle from the scope of practice there. Their argument is that we don't go to med school and we lack in training.

This is the "official position" of the AOFAS (American Orthopedic Foot and Ankle Society) on podiatry... http://www.aofas.org/userfiles/file/PDF/AOFAS_Podiatry_PS_FINAL.pdf

Notice how they talk about equal credentialing and accreditation. How do they know that the current credentialing and accreditation isn't equal but separate? Then they go on to demand we take the USMLE. Get our residencies accredited by the ACGME. And take become BC under the ABMS.

Now the thing you are missing with your argument is the timeline of how things happened with the DOs. I'm sure, or atleast I hope, that before the first ever state said 'DO = MD'...DOs did indeed have equal training with MDs. If that is so...then why did it take 23 years for the other states to also agree that DO = MD? What was happening during that time? You don't think some MDs still said...you aren't competent/your training is unequal?

I also think we are not seeing eye to eye with the whole equality thing. We aren't looking to be seen as "equal"...that would be impossible since we don't do an OB or psych rotation, etc. We are looking for "parity". And essentially that is what the DOs did. Just try and compare the curriculum of 2 random med schools. They aren't identical...but they are on par with each other.

Ok I'm rambling on and my post is probably hard to understand. Please give me some slack because I should be going over upper extremity anatomy right now...

 

[janV88]

I knew I read a thread before about DOs having trouble getting privileges at some hospitals.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=9138067#post9138067

It's an interesting read.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I knew I read a thread before about DOs having trouble getting privileges at some hospitals.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=9138067#post9138067

It's an interesting read.

1. I've only seen one instance where AOA board certification (in surgery) was an issue at a hospital. There was a big article about it, and the AOA jumped on it right away (ie: not common).

2. The individual who I believe you are referring to in the article completed an ACGME residency and, in my opinion, doesn't have the most optimistic outlook on DOs, the AOA, etc.

3. Saying 'ACGME BC can help land you a job easier' is like saying going to Harvard will help you land a job more efficiently than attending a smaller state school. It's true, but this doesn't mean there is an epidemic of state school graduates that are unemployed in medicine right now. There is always someone out there with a more impressive CV who could probably land a job above you ... that's life.

4. I'll be blatantly honest about what I've heard regarding AOA residency issues: a. ACGME gas is the 'gold standard;' b.if you want to go Rads, go ACGME. Again, I've heard this protested, people match AOA gas/rads happily each year, etc, but I don't think AOA BC DOs are really having issues all across the country with certification. Additionally, DOs always have the ACGME option (something not available to Pods).

 

[dtrack22]

From the perspective of a healthcare outsider, they can't comprehend that the foot of all things has someone with greater expertise than an MD. So inevitably they think a podiatrist fixes your toenail issues, but when sh.t goes down, they go to a "real" doctor.

I would bet a lot of money that the majority of "common folk" don't know that a podiatrist has a degree different than MD.

You hurt your foot, you search for a foot doctor in the yellow pages or on google, a whole bunch of podiatrists pop up, so you go see the pod closest to your house...or the one with the nicest web site.

Would your special medical school knowledge make you more or less likely to go see a pod for your own issues? Not trying to prove a point, just curious.

 

[sideways]

I would bet a lot of money that the majority of "common folk" don't know that a podiatrist has a degree different than MD.

You hurt your foot, you search for a foot doctor in the yellow pages or on google, a whole bunch of podiatrists pop up, so you go see the pod closest to your house...or the one with the nicest web site.

Would your special medical school knowledge make you more or less likely to go see a pod for your own issues? Not trying to prove a point, just curious.

If I had a foot problem I would see a podiatrist. If someone asked for advice regarding their foot problem, I would recommend they see a podiatrist.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I would bet a lot of money that the majority of "common folk" don't know that a podiatrist has a degree different than MD.

I'm curious (as well) ... would you support this sort of misunderstanding? I see how it could be much easier for patients to understand the depth of your training by just assuming your a MD who specialized, but I'm wondering if you would rather have them think that (easier) or take the time to explain?? DO (in theory) can run into similar issues, so just wondering.

Would your special medical school knowledge make you more or less likely to go see a pod for your own issues? Not trying to prove a point, just curious.

I'd personally see a pod for a foot problem and would recommend the same for any member of my family. I don't think the issue here has ever been DO/MD students thinking pods are lesser, more arguing over whether or not they are 'medical students.'

 

[UNVME2]

MD students can't enter the DO match...

Why would they want to? Osteopathic residencies offer no additional benefit nor in addition to the fact allopathic students don't get OMM. All that aside, as it has nothing to do with the fact that podiatry school is not medical school, you're still a podiatry student to everyone who matters regardless of what you tell your friends.

And that's why 3rd/4th year podiatry students have to refer to themselves as MS3 and MS4 on their rotations...

Well, technically you're under the allopathic scope of practice when you're rotating on an MD's service, so that makes sense. However, this is more common on the podiatry services than the medical services.

BTW, just as ucd stated, I also call myself a podiatry student and explain the profession/scope of practice to people who aren't aware of us.

As you should.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Why would they want to? Osteopathic residencies offer no additional benefit nor in addition to the fact allopathic students don't get OMM. All that aside, as it has nothing to do with the fact that podiatry school is not medical school, you're still a podiatry student to everyone who matters regardless of what you tell your friends.

Increased probability of matching based strictly on the ability to apply to a greater number of programs. There are people out there gunning for derm, ortho, etc, who would JUMP at the opportunity to apply to some more programs.

 

[dtrack22]

I'm curious (as well) ... would you support this sort of misunderstanding?

Yes and No. On the one hand I could care less if my patient thinks I'm an MD. All I want them to know is that Podaitry=foot and ankle problems, any and all. That's how I'll make a living. People don't care much about your education...all they know (and care about) is that you have a title (be it Orthopedic, Dermatologist, rhuematologist, Gynecologist, etc.) that tells them which problems you can fix.

If you think the general public is well educated then you need to look no further than the last presidential election. You can practically tell most people what to think.

But, I feel the profession needs to market itself as a viable option in the field of medicine in order to attract better students. Yes, some of us had allopathic numbers and chose podiatry, but those individuals are the exception and not the rule. The applicant pool is really what's hurting the profession.

Educating the general public (making sure patients know you are a DPM and that it is a separate education) may extend into the undergraduate population as sort of a byproduct, but ultimately the "pre-med" students are the ones who are profession needs to be targeting...in terms of distinguishing between MD and DPM. I don't really understand what is so hard about it. You tell them they can be surgeons and are almost guaranteed admission...who wouldn't apply?

 

[willdaniel76]

I've been seeing the same podiatrist for 3 years now and only recently realized she had a different degree from other physicians.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I will always call myself a podiatry student

Exactly.. I went to dental school. We also attended most of the same lectures and some rotations as the medical students at the program I went to.. but again, I never called myself a "medical student".. or an "oral physician".. or "Oral Medical school".. or told anyone I went to "medical school".

Im a dentist.. I went to dental school. Yes, we practice "dental/oral medicine/surgery" and having prescribing rights.. but that doesn't make me anything other than what I am.. a dentist. I'm proud of it.

Nurses, audiologists, and physical therapists getting "doctor degrees". Everyone wearing long white coats and introducing themselves as "doctor".
I think when professions try to stretch the titles and degrees... they start to lower the image of their professions. Its counter productive.

I have a Bachelor of Dental Surgery degree. (Australian/British BDS equivalent to the NorthAmerican/Japanese/Swedish DDS degree). We are given the title of "Doctor" and use Dr. in front of our names. .. but I just introduce myself by my first name to my patients.

 

[ucd]

Exactly.. I went to dental school. We also attended most of the same lectures and some rotations as the medical students at the program I went to.. but again, I never called myself a "medical student".. or an "oral physician".. or "Oral Medical school".. or told anyone I went to "medical school".

A Podiatry school curriculum is a lot more similar to med school then dental school. Dental schools focus their last 2 years trying to finish their dental requirement such as the # of endo,prostho,fillings,veneers,perio,etc. 3rd and 4th year pod students do majority of the same rotations as med students: medicine, surgery, radiology,dermatology, etc...it's not just a few rotations here and there. There really is no reason for a dental student to ever say they went to med school b/c it truly is different...I don't believe dental students even have to ever use a stethoscope.


Nurses, audiologists, and physical therapists getting "doctor degrees". Everyone wearing long white coats and introducing themselves as "doctor".
I think when professions try to stretch the titles and degrees... they start to lower the image of their professions. Its counter productive.

I don't believe the podiatry profession is similar at all to the "doctor degrees" you mentioned above. We just want people to know our complete scope of practice. It's similar to a person saying "oh your a dentist...can you clean my teeth?"
Ur probably thinking dude...a dental hygenist can do that too...I can do way more then that buddy.

Podiatrist can basically do any surgical procedure that an Orthopedic surgeon who specializes in a Foot and Ankle Fellowship can do. As a 1st year podiatric Intern, many residencies expect you to function like any other intern at the hospital. Can a nurse, PT, audiologist or even a dentist perform these task?? probably not. So no, podiatrist are not like the other "doctor degrees" trying to confuse the general public, or trying to lower the image of the medical profession

 

[dyk343]

Not that it really matters all that much... but from what I have been told physical therapists started making a DPT mandatory for insurance reasons. When they were just holding a masters degree insurance companies would not pay for visits unless they were referrals from a doctor. Now since they are "doctors" patients do not need a referral to have their visit covered by insurance. Hence doctor of physical therapy.

Correct me if im wrong but that is what I have been told.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Exactly.. I went to dental school. We also attended most of the same lectures and some rotations as the medical students at the program I went to.. but again, I never called myself a "medical student".. or an "oral physician".. or "Oral Medical school".. or told anyone I went to "medical school".

Im a dentist.. I went to dental school. Yes, we practice "dental/oral medicine/surgery" and having prescribing rights.. but that doesn't make me anything other than what I am.. a dentist. I'm proud of it.

Nurses, audiologists, and physical therapists getting "doctor degrees". Everyone wearing long white coats and introducing themselves as "doctor".
I think when professions try to stretch the titles and degrees... they start to lower the image of their professions. Its counter productive.

I have a Bachelor of Dental Surgery degree. (Australian/British BDS equivalent to the NorthAmerican/Japanese/Swedish DDS degree). We are given the title of "Doctor" and use Dr. in front of our names. .. but I just introduce myself by my first name to my patients.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Not that it really matters all that much... but from what I have been told physical therapists started making a DPT mandatory for insurance reasons. When they were just holding a masters degree insurance companies would not pay for visits unless they were referrals from a doctor. Now since they are "doctors" patients do not need a referral to have their visit covered by insurance. Hence doctor of physical therapy.

Correct me if im wrong but that is what I have been told.

Even physical therapists in the USA used to have a bachelors degree BPT degree 15 years ago or so. ... then everyone had masters MPT.. now DPT. Its mainly all for $$$

The PTs want more $$ by being able to twist the language of a referral from a "doctor".. and the Universities love it because often they can charge more tuititon for something with the word "doctor" in it.

The banks love it.. cause they can make you go into more debt for them.

It doesn't mean much when every "entry-level" degree to every profession is a "doctorate".

 

[sideways]

Even physical therapists in the USA used to have a bachelors degree BPT degree 15 years ago or so. ... then everyone had masters MPT.. now DPT. Its mainly all for $$$

The PTs want more $$ by being able to twist the language of a referral from a "doctor".. and the Universities love it because often they can charge more tuititon for something with the word "doctor" in it.

The banks love it.. cause they can make you go into more debt for them.

It doesn't mean much when every "entry-level" degree to every profession is a "doctorate".

I hope there's a backlash and more people pick up "trades." College is an absolute rip-off for most people nowadays. You want to make a smart financial decision? Become a plumber or electrician. Countless directionless kids are being taken advantage of. They make the mistake of spending 4 years of their life taking classes on medieval poetry only to find themselves nearly six figures in debt and unemployable. Universities have an agenda, and they don't give a **** about the students.

Disagree? How much did your tuition go up this year? How about your parent's income?