Podiatry does NOT equal Medical school

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Let's keep in mind that back in the days when the VA health system first started employing podiatrists, leg amputation rate was drastically reduced by half and patients' lives were extended beyond the five year morbidity often associated with below the knee amputations.

Leg amputations are quite costly and place enormous financial strain on the health care system and as long as there are diabetics, circulatory disorders, neurological disorders,etc., the employment and utilization of podiatrists in amputation prevention programs will continue to prove very cost effective in the long term.

Be certain of two things: MickeyDees and an overweight population.

I know numerous orthopods. Put something in front of them and their mindset is "fix it," not "what is the problem here?" I understand this is an overgeneralization, but stereotypes form somewhere, right?
 
I just posted this very question in the residency section. I should have just come here.

A quick google search brought this* up on 08/30/2010; and you'll be amazed at the audacity:

This lady thinks she's going to be a "doctor's wife" (technically true but all her online friends are MD/DO wives) and that her boyfriend is having such a tough time in " 4th year medical school" and "arranging away rotations" then some people who know her personally outed her in the comments that the dude is in podiatry. It's hilarious because although the terms she is using are technically correct (DPM students do aways, residencies, 4 yr rigorous program, etc) it is very deceiving when you are in a group of people that blog about the trials of traditional medical school.


*http://love3000milesapart.blogspot.com

This lady should start her own blog, "surgeon's wife".🙂
 
UNVME2,

I agree that it is a little far fetched for a pharmacy student to refer to themselves as a medical student, but I think you are underestimating the training and knowledge of today's PharmD. In most cases they are more than capable of being a clinical pharmacist.

PeaJay

The most I could find about the PharmD curriculum, because it seems each school has its own, is that at the most you get 1 "school" year (40 credit hours) of clinical training, and that was just one program.

So, if you define a "clinical pharmacist" as someone who tells the patients how to take their drugs, I guess that's OK but I don't see the point. If you define the job training (1 year patient contact vs MD/DPM 2 years in school +3 years residency) as sufficient for independent prescribing rights I think you need to rethink what you think cause that's just crazy talk.
 
The most I could find about the PharmD curriculum, because it seems each school has its own, is that at the most you get 1 "school" year (40 credit hours) of clinical training, and that was just one program.

So, if you define a "clinical pharmacist" as someone who tells the patients how to take their drugs, I guess that's OK but I don't see the point. If you define the job training (1 year patient contact vs MD/DPM 2 years in school +3 years residency) as sufficient for independent prescribing rights I think you need to rethink what you think cause that's just crazy talk.

The current PharmD curriculum includes 3 years of didactic coursework, followed by ~42 weeks of clinical rotations in the 4th year. The PharmDs who later go on to do "clinical" things almost invariably, especially now, go on to complete a residency after graduation.
 
“Change has a considerable psychological impact on the human mind. To the fearful, it is threatening because it means that things may get worse. To the hopeful, it is encouraging because things may get better. To the confident, it is inspiring because the challenge exists to make things better.”
 
Everyone calm down. Dang, I've been told about the pissyness of SDN. I doubt anyway has the gall to speak to each other like this in person.

My point was to display the podiatry name in order to educate the public and let our excellent work be what speaks for our profession. Unfortunately everyone's got an ego to bolster or destroy.

If you're angry with life, stop sipping on the haterade and find a healthy distraction.
 
Everyone calm down. Dang, I've been told about the pissyness of SDN. I doubt anyway has the gall to speak to each other like this in person.

My point was to display the podiatry name in order to educate the public and let our excellent work be what speaks for our profession. Unfortunately everyone's got an ego to bolster or destroy.

If you're angry with life, stop sipping on the haterade and find a healthy distraction.

LOL...welcome to the world of being able to speak anonymously and have no recourse as to what is said online.

In this situation however, we a re a small professional community and I urge everyone to keep that in mind and post thoughtfully.

You never know who you might meet down the road or when someone from your past will recognize you on these forums.

Case in point, one of the people on this forums already contacted me to say hello after a couple of posts and it turns out this person knows me personally somehow from my travels. Be mindful...you never know who you are talking to.
 
tkim, some very interesting posts above and things I actually didn't know. I went to Des Moines U so I have a lot of DO friends.

I refer tons of people to podiatrists. I find it funny that people talk about how we can specialize in anything we want after med school/residency, but fail to see that people who want to be foot and ankle surgeons have already chosen their specialty before entering school. Sounds like an advantage to me?
 
Gold jacket... Green jacket.... Who gives a ....
 
That's a real head scratcher, though. Schools of podiatric medicine are more streamlined with allopathic medical schools than pharmacy schools. I mean, it's not even close. We're really talking 2 years of basic sciences and two years of clinical rotations plus 3 years of residency vs. a pharmacy education? Furthermore, unless you do a PharmD you're not even entitled to "Doctor."

I just heard about the term "clinical pharmacist" and I don't even know what to say other than it's silly that pharmacists think they are entitled to independent prescribing rights with little clinical education, the fact that they are calling themselves "medical students" is just...weird.

Clearly you have no idea what a pharmacy education entails, "little clinical education"...really? Who said clinical pharmacists have the feeling of entitlement when it comes to independent prescribing rights? I haven't met one pharmacist who wants to write scripts. Hopefully when you are in your residency you will be at a good teaching hospital that utilizes clinical pharmacists. I think you will be very surprised by their abilities and general knowledge. One day you will have independent prescribing rights, with how much training in pharmacology, pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics? I guess it is not that important to know how the drug works, just that it works right? I am in no way qualified to diagnose, but tell me your diagnoses and I can formulate a pharmacologic treatment strategy. Do you think we just know how drugs work and not when or why to use them?
 
There exists Doctor of Osteopathy degrees in other countries - Canada, France, the UK, and Germany come to mind, that are limited solely to manipulation. The USDO is the only DO animal that has the training to practice medicine and surgery.

So yes, people outside of the US are familiar with DO's - just not the type we have here. Hence the confusion here and abroad, and the difficulty in securing international practice rights in countries that already have their version of DO.

And yes, we went to med school.


WRONG! I am from Germany and a physician and we DON'T have D.O. We don't even have PA, NP or podiatrists (I didn't even know that that was before I am came to the USA. Actually I am just reading on this forum to learn more about it.) We don't even have RT or sonogram techs. All we got are nurses and physicians (or MDs as you would call it). So I don't even understand this whole stupid discussion about who is better or what. Only in the USA I noticed that everyone that gets some little certificate puts a letter behind his name. Never noticed it in Germany. In Germany you either wrote a doctoral thesis and have Dr. in front of your name, no matter what field, or not. There are no other titles/letters behind or in front of the name. So guys quit bragging about what y'all do but be proud of the paths you chose. I am glad if noone knows what I do so I don't get all those medical questions in my free time.
My bf is going to PA school and proud of it. He didn't choose it because he didn't get into med school but because he wanted to go into primary care and loved this route and I can't blame him. Might have done the same thing if there were PA's in Germany. He is just as capable and has the knowledge like any med students but would never call himself that because he is not one.
 
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Quite right - German MD's who take additional courses can get the Diploma of Osteopathic Medicine - DOM.

www.do-online.org/files/lcl_intlorglist.pdf

www.oialliance.org/pdf/germany_osteopathy.pdf

I said we don't have D.O. and I was refering to doctor of osteopathics! Yes, there are courses you can take and what they call diploma is nothing but a certificate really and everyone can take those course, you don't have to be a doctor. Physiotherapist for example take those also. Actually we don't have extra D.Os because osteopathy was always a part of our regular medical school. We actually do learn in medical school about osteopathy, manual therapy, alternative medicine etc. (not enough though) and have to take courses and exam (which I think was very valuable and I do use it in my daily life). And if you are a family doctor (those are the ones that usually get this certificate) you can take additional courses BUT it is NOT at all comparable to the DO (doctor of osteopathc medicine).

http://www.oialliance.org/pdf/germany_osteopathy.pdf

PS: I am not saying there doesn't exist osteopathy in Germany but I don't want people to think there are actually 4-yr D.O. schools in Germany like in the USA. All this lettering behing the names (which we don't ever use here) might be confusing to some people. So no offense.
 
I said we don't have D.O. and I was refering to doctor of osteopathics! Yes, there are courses you can take and what they call diploma is nothing but a certificate really and everyone can take those course, you don't have to be a doctor. Physiotherapist for example take those also. Actually we don't have extra D.Os because osteopathy was always a part of our regular medical school. We actually do learn in medical school about osteopathy, manual therapy, alternative medicine etc. (not enough though) and have to take courses and exam (which I think was very valuable and I do use it in my daily life). And if you are a family doctor (those are the ones that usually get this certificate) you can take additional courses BUT it is NOT at all comparable to the DO (doctor of osteopathc medicine).

http://www.oialliance.org/pdf/germany_osteopathy.pdf

You realize you just reposted the same link I posted, right?
 
You realize you just reposted the same link I posted, right?

Yep, sure did. I think it explains the amount of hours and that it is not the same as US DO school and that not only MD can't take that paths. It is just not regulated like it is in US. So I would not compare that bit of training with 4 years of US DO school. Might have the same initials but thats all. I just don't think that a German Heilpraktiker with extra osteopathic training is as well trained as an US DO.
 
Yep, sure did. I think it explains the amount of hours and that it is not the same as US DO school and that not only MD can't take that paths. It is just not regulated like it is in US. So I would not compare that bit of training with 4 years of US DO school. Might have the same initials but thats all. I just don't think that a German Heilpraktiker with extra osteopathic training is as well trained as an US DO.

Eh, we're just not connecting. It's okay.
 
You realize you just reposted the same link I posted, right?

Yep, sure did. I think it explains the amount of hours and that it is not the same as US DO school and that not only MD can't take that paths. It is just not regulated like it is in US. So I would not compare that bit of training with 4 years of US DO school. Might have the same initials but thats all. I just don't think that a German Heilpraktiker with extra osteopathic training is as well trained as an US DO in medicine in general. Yep and i am saying that As a German cause I have Seen both. Here is it just an extra qualification and Not a degree itself.
 
Eh, we're just not connecting. It's okay.

Ok i went back and read your original post again. And yeah you said that in other countries osteopathics only do Manipulations and not like USDO actually get to work as all kinds of medicine with that degree. So I missed that. I was actually trying to say the same thing. Maybe I should read better but it is hard since here in europe it is in middle of the night. But it is still not called Doctor of osteopathic because to be able to have a doctor title you HAVE to write a doctoral thesis and you don't get it automatically. I did 4 years of Research on weekends and nights during med school to deserve my Dr.med and don't think people in Germany should get a dooctor of osteopathy of they did some Weekend courses. So it is just a certificate or diploma if they wann's Call that. That's also why if you graduate from medical school you are a physician and not a doctor since thats a title kinda like a PhD no profession. Well anyways, I apologize if I misunderstood what you were saying since we both pretty much said the same.
 
Clearly you have no idea what a pharmacy education entails, "little clinical education"...really? Who said clinical pharmacists have the feeling of entitlement when it comes to independent prescribing rights? I haven't met one pharmacist who wants to write scripts. Hopefully when you are in your residency you will be at a good teaching hospital that utilizes clinical pharmacists. I think you will be very surprised by their abilities and general knowledge. One day you will have independent prescribing rights, with how much training in pharmacology, pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics? I guess it is not that important to know how the drug works, just that it works right? I am in no way qualified to diagnose, but tell me your diagnoses and I can formulate a pharmacologic treatment strategy. Do you think we just know how drugs work and not when or why to use them?

Excellent response!
 
kvl1027 said:
Who said clinical pharmacists have the feeling of entitlement when it comes to independent prescribing rights?

Your colleagues in the pharm forum, there's an active thread on clinical pharm that is quite amusing.

..I guess it is not that important to know how the drug works, just that it works right?

One need not know much, if anything, regarding internal combustion engines and how they function in order to drive a car. Knowledge of a few operational skills and and the rules of the road enable one to operate an automobile safe and effectively in most terrain. Obviously the more you drive (clinical knowledge) the better you are at driving. If you think we don't get sufficient knowledge in how drugs work, perhaps you should take that up with the administration. I think we get great teaching, and apply it every day in clinical situations.

tell me your diagnoses and I can formulate a pharmacologic treatment strategy.

So can I, based on the drug and the patient history. It's not just the diagnosis, it's the patient's entire history.

Do you think we just know how drugs work and not when or why to use them?

That's not what I think, it's what I know based on your clinical education. Otherwise, you'd be doing my job.
 
I have to chime in here, and I am not sure if I have ever even met a podiatrist. I teach primary care residents and the premise that medical school is the "most difficult", all encompassing training in the health profession world simply has no merit. I see this every day, and the real training is done in residency for nearly every doctoral level profession. PharmD clinical pharmacists can manage medications, PA/NP can practice medicine well, DOs are equal to MDs...etc....and etc. Enough of this silly, sophomoric crap..please! I am a psychologist trained to prescribe, and have never killed anyone, and actually do have a solid understanding of how medications are affected by and affect human biology. Outside of politics and student forums like this nobody challenges my knowledge or cares as long as I do good work...same with all other health professions.
 
"the premise that medical school is the "most difficult", all encompassing training in the health profession world simply has no merit. I see this every day, and the real training is done in residency for nearly every doctoral level profession. PharmD clinical pharmacists can manage medications, PA/NP can practice medicine well, DOs are equal to MDs...etc....and etc. Enough of this silly, sophomoric crap..please!"

AMEN
 
Last time i checked, wasn't D.O. students still trying to get all the same rights as MD's. If i'm not mistaken, D.O.'s can't do certain specialties...well i won't say can't...but lets just say they won't get picked over a MD. And isn't it true that for D.O's to get these competitive spots they have to take the USMLE's after they take their COMLEX, because certain specialties won't even look at the COMLEX. So Mr. Sideways, before you think of becoming a brain surgeon or doing ortho....remeber that ur COMLEX isn't considered good enough. You still have to take the USMLE!
this is all non-sense.....where is the love!
 
Last time i checked, wasn't D.O. students still trying to get all the same rights as MD's. If i'm not mistaken, D.O.'s can't do certain specialties...well i won't say can't...but lets just say they won't get picked over a MD. And isn't it true that for D.O's to get these competitive spots they have to take the USMLE's after they take their COMLEX, because certain specialties won't even look at the COMLEX. So Mr. Sideways, before you think of becoming a brain surgeon or doing ortho....remeber that ur COMLEX isn't considered good enough. You still have to take the USMLE!
this is all non-sense.....where is the love!

I'm not aware of any specialty that DO's can't/don't do. I went to DMU with a bunch of them and know of DO's in pretty much every specialty. That may be a good question for the DO forums.
 
Yeah it's not that they can't do any specialty, but they will not get picked over a MD in most highly competitive spots. I was just making the point that before he starts insulting a profession he needs to look at the discrimination against his own.. I know for a fact that D.O.'s need to take the USMLE's before attempting to compete for certain residencies and that lots of directors will not choose them over a MD. I've heard and seen it happen with my own D.O. friends...

Just some food for thought
 
FYI, they will often not get matched due to their own desire to have further OMT training which is often not provided.
 
One need not know much, if anything, regarding internal combustion engines and how they function in order to drive a car. Knowledge of a few operational skills and and the rules of the road enable one to operate an automobile safe and effectively in most terrain. Obviously the more you drive (clinical knowledge) the better you are at driving. If you think we don't get sufficient knowledge in how drugs work, perhaps you should take that up with the administration. I think we get great teaching, and apply it every day in clinical situations.

That is an extremely bad idea. Before you prescribe a drug, you'd damn well better know how it works. That's why we take pharmacology, otherwise we could just memorize a list that says "For X disease, prescribe Y or Z" and be done with it. Now, I won't claim to know as much about mechanisms of action as my pharmacist colleagues, but I do know a good bit. If you prescribe without knowing how those drugs do what they do, you're a potential danger to your patients.
 
I have to chime in here, and I am not sure if I have ever even met a podiatrist. I teach primary care residents and the premise that medical school is the "most difficult", all encompassing training in the health profession world simply has no merit. I see this every day, and the real training is done in residency for nearly every doctoral level profession. PharmD clinical pharmacists can manage medications, PA/NP can practice medicine well, DOs are equal to MDs...etc....and etc. Enough of this silly, sophomoric crap..please! I am a psychologist trained to prescribe, and have never killed anyone, and actually do have a solid understanding of how medications are affected by and affect human biology. Outside of politics and student forums like this nobody challenges my knowledge or cares as long as I do good work...same with all other health professions.

I couldn't agree more that as long as you are a good doctor (regardless of the degree), take care of your patients, stay current, practice ethically and with compassion you will be appreciated by your patients, the community, and other doctors (again regardless of the degree) who practice the same way. I thing all doctors should try to think back to the old days of the GP (general practitioner for the younger people) when they looked at the patient as more than an illness or diagnosis. They looked at their family situation, their socioeconomic situation, and how their disease and it's subsequent treatment would affect their life. In our profession, it is sometimes better to amputate than reconstruct if the breadwinner of a family can be healed quicker, cheaper, and with less risk. Of course the patient needs to be informed of all of their options but you as an educated healthcare provider will have to look at more than the Charcot collapse.

Now the reality. I agree that there are good and bad doctors with all credentials. However the MD will always be considered the authority by lay people and each other. When I first entered practice it was very stressful when I knew I was right but an MD disagreed and of course everyone sided with the MD. I saw Charcot feet amputated in the 1980s after being diagnosed with global osteomyelytis and other errors. Heck in those days, even many DPM colleagues would buy into the MD knew everything. I used to joke that if at a meeting an MD would say the sky is green many DPMs would say yes and it's a pretty shade. Heck in those days our hospitals would prevent DOs from getting privileges because they were not "real doctors". Between that enviroment, the fight for hospital privileges, and the not a real doctor stigma I was accepted and almost went back to medical school. Student loan debt and the realization that I loved what I did brought me back to reality. Over the years I realized I was good at what I did and when a patient or doctor questioned my ability to do something purely because I was a DPM I figured if they want to go to someone with less training or experience that was their perogative and didn't take it personal. After 25 years, I know that we as group do it right. Yes we have MD/DO colleagues that also do it right and we have DPMs who do it wrong. All I can control is me and help the profession advance with education, politics, and fighting for our rights.

So the point? If you will be bothered by discrimination or doubt yourself the first time you are called out simply because you are a DPM this may not be the profession for you. If you are comfortable in your skin then it is a great profession. One point of caution to our newest graduates. Some of you have because of the battles we all faced in the 1980s/90s have never experienced what I am talking about. You are truly blessed and can approach this with a different view. However, never be lulled into the idea that you are safe. As the healthcare enviroment changes I am seeing rhetoric from orthopedics and medicine in general that is very 80s like. Watch your backs, use your training, and fight for the next generation.
 
I couldn't agree more that as long as you are a good doctor (regardless of the degree), take care of your patients, stay current, practice ethically and with compassion you will be appreciated by your patients, the community, and other doctors (again regardless of the degree) who practice the same way. I thing all doctors should try to think back to the old days of the GP (general practitioner for the younger people) when they looked at the patient as more than an illness or diagnosis. They looked at their family situation, their socioeconomic situation, and how their disease and it's subsequent treatment would affect their life. In our profession, it is sometimes better to amputate than reconstruct if the breadwinner of a family can be healed quicker, cheaper, and with less risk. Of course the patient needs to be informed of all of their options but you as an educated healthcare provider will have to look at more than the Charcot collapse.

Now the reality. I agree that there are good and bad doctors with all credentials. However the MD will always be considered the authority by lay people and each other. When I first entered practice it was very stressful when I knew I was right but an MD disagreed and of course everyone sided with the MD. I saw Charcot feet amputated in the 1980s after being diagnosed with global osteomyelytis and other errors. Heck in those days, even many DPM colleagues would buy into the MD knew everything. I used to joke that if at a meeting an MD would say the sky is green many DPMs would say yes and it's a pretty shade. Heck in those days our hospitals would prevent DOs from getting privileges because they were not "real doctors". Between that enviroment, the fight for hospital privileges, and the not a real doctor stigma I was accepted and almost went back to medical school. Student loan debt and the realization that I loved what I did brought me back to reality. Over the years I realized I was good at what I did and when a patient or doctor questioned my ability to do something purely because I was a DPM I figured if they want to go to someone with less training or experience that was their perogative and didn't take it personal. After 25 years, I know that we as group do it right. Yes we have MD/DO colleagues that also do it right and we have DPMs who do it wrong. All I can control is me and help the profession advance with education, politics, and fighting for our rights.

So the point? If you will be bothered by discrimination or doubt yourself the first time you are called out simply because you are a DPM this may not be the profession for you. If you are comfortable in your skin then it is a great profession. One point of caution to our newest graduates. Some of you have because of the battles we all faced in the 1980s/90s have never experienced what I am talking about. You are truly blessed and can approach this with a different view. However, never be lulled into the idea that you are safe. As the healthcare enviroment changes I am seeing rhetoric from orthopedics and medicine in general that is very 80s like. Watch your backs, use your training, and fight for the next generation.

Excellent post!! Quoted for emphasis. ALWAYS watch your back. There is no other way. Fight for the future ALWAYS. There is no other way.
 
Last time i checked, wasn't D.O. students still trying to get all the same rights as MD's. If i'm not mistaken, D.O.'s can't do certain specialties...well i won't say can't...but lets just say they won't get picked over a MD. And isn't it true that for D.O's to get these competitive spots they have to take the USMLE's after they take their COMLEX, because certain specialties won't even look at the COMLEX. So Mr. Sideways, before you think of becoming a brain surgeon or doing ortho....remeber that ur COMLEX isn't considered good enough. You still have to take the USMLE!
this is all non-sense.....where is the love!

This is so mind-numbingly false, that I can only respond with 'LOL and No.'

I also assume you're a pod student, yet have 'medical student' as your SDN status ... kind of explains the irrational lashing out I guess.

Just my .02 cents ... Pod school =/= Med school. This is no way, shape, or form means that pods are anything lesser, physicians are anything more, etc, it's just that the two are not the same. If they were, podiatry would simply be a residency option after general MD/DO training in medical school/internship. I'm 99% sure this is all Sideways was trying to say. He wasn't trying to assert some hierarchy, but rather comment that they aren't the same beast. That's all.
 
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Last time i checked, wasn't D.O. students still trying to get all the same rights as MD's. If i'm not mistaken, D.O.'s can't do certain specialties...well i won't say can't...but lets just say they won't get picked over a MD. And isn't it true that for D.O's to get these competitive spots they have to take the USMLE's after they take their COMLEX, because certain specialties won't even look at the COMLEX. So Mr. Sideways, before you think of becoming a brain surgeon or doing ortho....remeber that ur COMLEX isn't considered good enough. You still have to take the USMLE!
this is all non-sense.....where is the love!

Let's play a game. You name a specialty, and I'll show you a board-certified DO practicing it. Ya up for it douchebag?
 
Believe it or not phillypd is a "medical student" not a podiatry student...just goes to show, it's not what you know, it's who you know.

sideways said:
Let's play a game. You name a specialty, and I'll show you a board-certified DO practicing it. Ya up for it douchebag?

What's even more funny is that for every board cert DO that's practicing some specialty, anyone could name 100 DO's who are PCP's. Congrats, a handful of you are good enough students to go into specialties...

I call myself a podiatry student and I tell people I go to podiatry school. But if you think your DO education is different enough to say you go to "medical school" and pods don't, then you are sadly mistaken. The only difference is OMM and an OBGYN rotation in the first 4 years...and since OMM is a crock...
 
What's even more funny is that for every board cert DO that's practicing some specialty, anyone could name 100 DO's who are PCP's. Congrats, a handful of you are good enough students to go into specialties...

The same applies for MDs oh wise one. The are far fewer specialists in medicine than PCPs. Swing and a miss.

I call myself a podiatry student and I tell people I go to podiatry school. But if you think your DO education is different enough to say you go to "medical school" and pods don't, then you are sadly mistaken. The only difference is OMM and an OBGYN rotation in the first 4 years...and since OMM is a crock...

Don't argue with me. Argue with the government. Apparently they think DO school is different enough to allow for an unrestricted medical license, yet they don't feel the same about podiatry school. Perhaps you should e-mail your Senator your compelling argument.
 
sideways said:
The same applies for MDs oh wise one. The are far fewer specialists in medicine than PCPs. Swing and a miss.

You know what i meant, but I guess you wouldn't have a response if you admitted that. The DO degree is a fast track to becoming a family practice doc. A higher % of DO grads go PCP than their MD counterparts. You can say it's the whole osteopathic philosophy, blah, blah, blah, but we know that a majority of DO students are there because they didn't get into an MD programs...just like us lowly pods.

sideways said:
Don't argue with me. Argue with the government. Apparently they think DO school is different enough to allow for an unrestricted medical license, yet they don't feel the same about podiatry school. Perhaps you should e-mail your Senator your compelling argument.

I called the federal government, they said podiatrists are considered physicians...apparently there are two other programs that have the same distinction.
 
I called the federal government, they said podiatrists are considered physicians...apparently there are two other programs that have the same distinction.

Call them back and tell them to update their websites.
 
You know what i meant, but I guess you wouldn't have a response if you admitted that. The DO degree is a fast track to becoming a family practice doc. A higher % of DO grads go PCP than their MD counterparts. You can say it's the whole osteopathic philosophy, blah, blah, blah, but we know that a majority of DO students are there because they didn't get into an MD programs...just like us lowly pods.

Really? Because 70% of the graduating class from my DO school specialized last year. Damn, maybe I should remind all those future facial plastic surgeons, orthopods, dermatologists, anesthesiologists, etc, that the 'DO degree is a fast track to becoming a family practice doc.' Additionally, Sideways is right (shocker); a large portion of MD classes enter 'primary care' as well. I get that you're irritated with the situation, but making these baseless attacks and responding with more incorrect anecdotes really isn't making a strong point.

I called the federal government, they said podiatrists are considered physicians...apparently there are two other programs that have the same distinction.

If you're referring to the medicare definition of a 'resident,' then this ranting, bottom-of-the-barrel argument is worse than your explosion about all DOs becoming family practice docs. When you can sit for the USMLE/COMLEX, apply for and complete an AOA/ACGME accredited residency, and become BC in that field ... then you can claim that the DPM is equal to the DO/MD. Until that time, I really don't understand the urge to equate two degrees that bestow a different set of privileges and responsibilities. No one here is arguing that Podiatry school isn't challenging; no one is claiming that physicians are 'better' than podiatrists; no one is trying to state that Pods don't have an excellent knowledge of the foot and ankle. BUT, the degrees simply aren't equivalent, meaning neither is the education. It's noting to become irate about, but it is the truth.
 
70% lol...your governing body's website says that 60% of graduates become PCP's.

The code of federal regulations says pods are physicians...sorry the bureau of labor statistics isn't up to snuff?

I'm not upset, frustrated, etc. with any situation. I chose podiatry school because that's the specialty I wanted to go into. If I could have done that at an MD program I would have. Sorry, would not have subjected myself to OMM. I just find it funny that DO students, who are part of a profession that had these same comments made about them are so intent on insisting another group is inferior.

And don't lump in residency and BC with the USMLE/COMLEX. The whole post is about being a "medical student"...unless during residency you are going to introduce yourself as a "student". As far as the first 4 years go, when you are a "student", I don't see DO's receiving more medical training than DPM's. If a pod passed the USMLE's would you consider him/her a "medical student"?
 
BUT, the degrees simply aren't equivalent, meaning neither is the education. It's noting to become irate about, but it is the truth.

Let me get this straight. DTrack is going to podiatry school sitting next to DO students in his basic science classes and taking the same tests, etc. He finishes 4 years (2 of which are identical in basic sciences) with differences in the clinical structure.

He then goes on to complete a 3 (some people 4) year residency. During that time, he has the ability to manage his patients (adjusting insulin, manage CHF, etc., etc.), perform H&Ps, perform surgery, treat patients in an ER and all the other wonderful rotations that DOs and even MDs do minus OBGYN.

After he finishes, because of his speciality he no longer needs to or wants to manage CHF or insulin so he practices within his scope. The DO or even MD student finishes residency and depending on their speciality also will no longer manage insulin, etc.

Yes, the degrees are different. Explain to me again how the education is different?

The irony is rich. 30 some odd years ago DOs couldn't even admit patients to the hospital because they were deemed inferior to MDs. Now all of a sudden DOs have gained this high ground and seem ignorant to the fact that there is another field out there that is educated just as well.
 
70% lol...your governing body's website says that 60% of graduates become PCP's.

Hence why I said 'the graduating class last year,' not 'all practicing DOs in general.'

The code of federal regulations says pods are physicians...sorry the bureau of labor statistics isn't up to snuff?

Really? Can you provide some proof please. Here is what I found from the code of federal regulations:

(a) Sources who can provide evidence to establish an impairment. We need evidence from acceptable medical sources to establish whether you have a medically determinable impairment(s). See §404.1508. Acceptable medical sources are—

(1) Licensed physicians (medical or osteopathic doctors);

(2) Licensed or certified psychologists. Included are school psychologists, or other licensed or certified individuals with other titles who perform the same function as a school psychologist in a school setting, for purposes of establishing mental ******ation, learning disabilities, and borderline intellectual functioning only;

(3) Licensed optometrists, for purposes of establishing visual disorders only (except, in the U.S. Virgin Islands, licensed optometrists, for the measurement of visual acuity and visual fields only);

(4) Licensed podiatrists, for purposes of establishing impairments of the foot, or foot and ankle only, depending on whether the State in which the podiatrist practices permits the practice of podiatry on the foot only, or the foot and ankle; and

(5) Qualified speech-language pathologists, for purposes of establishing speech or language impairments only. For this source, "qualified" means that the speech-language pathologist must be licensed by the State professional licensing agency, or be fully certified by the State education agency in the State in which he or she practices, or hold a Certificate of Clinical Competence from the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association.


They seem to actually make a pretty clear distinction between physicians (MD/DO) and podiatrists, and it appears as if the podiatrists are not lumped in to the physician category (though MDs and DOs are).

http://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/404/404-1513.htm

I'm not upset, frustrated, etc. with any situation. I chose podiatry school because that's the specialty I wanted to go into. If I could have done that at an MD program I would have. Sorry, would not have subjected myself to OMM. I just find it funny that DO students, who are part of a profession that had these same comments made about them are so intent on insisting another group is inferior.

You're both muddling areas and confusing me with this statement:

1. If you could have gone MD you would have, but you didn't so now you're going DPM? Is that what you said in the above statement??

This doesn't seem to add much validity to the being proud, upfront, not insecure, etc, side of the argument.

2. The difference between MDs making comments regarding DOs (which, by the way, only happens on the pre-medical level) is that they can rant, rave, and bash all they want ... it doesn't change the fact that DOs are fully licensed physicians who can practice in every field/asset of medicine that an MD can. The same cannot be said about DPMs. Additionally, I believe both Sideways and I stated multiple times that we were not considering Podiatry inferior by ANY means. We were just saying it's not medical school. I don't consider dentistry or physical therapy inferior either, but I would take issue with either of these health care professionals claiming they went to 'medical school.'

3. I'm not sure where you're going with the OMM component. It seems to me as if you have no real knowledge on the subject and have based an opinion around the same type of bad research you feel is dropped onto podiatry.

Nice straw man though ...

And don't lump in residency and BC with the USMLE/COMLEX. The whole post is about being a "medical student"...unless during residency you are going to introduce yourself as a "student". As far as the first 4 years go, when you are a "student", I don't see DO's receiving more medical training than DPM's. If a pod passed the USMLE's would you consider him/her a "medical student"?

Wow, swing and a miss.

My point is that if Podiatry school was medical school ... why can't you sit for the national medical school boards, complete the federally funded residency positions, and become certified by the medical specialty boards??? Every student who successfully completes medical school in the US can do this ... can you??

You don't see DOs receiving more medical training than DPMs during MEDICAL school??? Really??? I find this interesting. I've compared the curricula, and while the first two years have striking similarities, the last two (which are still 'school') are quite different. If you really believe that DOs don't receive more relevant medical experience and Pods receive more general podiatry experience during these two years, than you are simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

Furthermore, you've muddled the point even further with the 'pass USLME = med student' argument. My point was that this is the national medical student examination. If you're eligible to take it, you are a medical student.

However, for the sake of my point ... sure! Go register, take, and pass the USMLE and I will consider you a medical student
 
The irony is rich. 30 some odd years ago DOs couldn't even admit patients to the hospital because they were deemed inferior to MDs. Now all of a sudden DOs have gained this high ground and seem ignorant to the fact that there is another field out there that is educated just as well.

LOL, can we please stop falling back on this unrelated, horrible argument? 1. DOs have had rights in all 50 states since the early 70s (73 I believe), 2. At this point in time, DOs had evolved to the point where their model trained individuals to act as comprehensive physicians 3. The DPM model does NOT train individuals to be full-scope physicians. If this model wants to morph to the DO/MD model, prep students for the boards, etc, etc, (just like DOs did), then sure ... DPM can = whatever they would like within the medical community.

Until then ... what happened 40 years ago is completely irrelevant.
 
Believe it or not phillypd is a "medical student" not a podiatry student...just goes to show, it's not what you know, it's who you know.

I am pretty sure phillypd is even one of them fancy allopathic students on top of being a medical student
 
This argument is ridiculous. First of all, yes my first year was the same as the DO's except for OMM. Secondly, our second year is not the same except for Pharm. We do take systems courses but they are not the same. Should they be? Absolutely not! We are becoming podiatrists, foot and ankle surgeons. We don't need to know every single detail of every syndrome or disease. The key is having a general knowledge and to be able to consult with those who are trained in that area. Osteo and Allo schools should take more in depth systems courses as they will be treating those issues on a daily basis.
Additionally, at my school, basically our whole second semester during second year is Pod related. Is this the same for the others! No because that is our specialty.

This argument is pointless. We are all professional students and shouldn't argue about superiority. Especially you pod students. Be proud to say you are a Podiatry Student and hold yourself to a high standard so when we practice, you can show others your stuff and help to eliminate misconceptions about our profession.
 
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I am pretty sure phillypd is even one of them fancy allopathic students on top of being a medical student

Really? Every single one of his posts seems to either be in a DO forum (dealing with Philly College of Osteo Med) or Podiatry. Furthermore, he says in one thread that he was accepted to a Pod program at Temple??? Maybe I'm missing something, but he doesn't appear to be an allopathic student.
 
Yeah, it seems as if Phillypd goes to Temple for podiatry? Although I've seen him refer to it as Temple med several times on the boards??
 
That would lead me to believe I am wrong. Sorry. Maybe you should try this humility thing every once in a while...
 
phillypd is a she and is in Temple's MD program...you should do a little better research.

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/OP_Home/ssact/title18/1861.htm#act-1861-r defines physician...
"The term “physician”, when used in connection with the performance of any function or action, means...(3) a doctor of podiatric medicine"

In between it labels (1)MD/DO's and (2) a doctor of dental surgery/medicine.

1. If you could have gone MD you would have, but you didn't so now you're going DPM? Is that what you said in the above statement??

This doesn't seem to add much validity to the being proud, upfront, not insecure, etc, side of the argument.

That's exactly what I'm saying. I wanted to be a pod, not an MD. I wanted to practice many types of medicine while specializing on one part of the body. Can't do that as an MD or DO, where you tend to specialize in a type of medicine and then practice all over the body. I like my profession and have no reason to be insecure about our education, training, scope, etc.

Since I've been in pod school I feel my education is much more similar to a DO's than you realize. Of course you are at a program that isn't affiliated with a podiatry program so you wouldn't really know. You will never agree with my opinion so I guess there is no point posting on the matter anymore?

Additionally, I believe both Sideways and I stated multiple times that we were not considering Podiatry inferior by ANY means.

The profession itself or the education?
 
Lol,

1. I'm not even sure what you are trying to say

2. I don't know why I've become the 'bad guy' in this thread. I have not once 'bashed' podiatry. Quite the opposite in fact. I really do respect pod. I actually considered it at one point in time (I know a highly, highly successful pod who has awesome practice with a nice balance of surgery, seeing patients, etc). However, I'm simply stating that the term medical school refers (in the US) to MD/DO colleges. I also think it's a bit odd to try and claim it as something else or not want to explain what it really is you are doing??? Is there something wrong with stating that you attend podiatry school? I really thought almost everyone knew/understood what podiatry was, respected the field, etc (I'm referring to the general public, not SDN attitudes)??? Regardless, I'm not trying to claim the profession as inferior. Period.

3. I'm very confused as to Phillypd. Let me see if I can briefly summarize:

-His first posts on this board (in Dec of 08) say he was accepted to several Caribbean MD and pod schools.

-He goes into great detail about a POD interview at temple and a DO interview at PCOM (in like February of 09)

-He says he was not accepted to PCOM (it's a tough school to make the cut at ... I wasn't even offered an interview)

-He never once mentions any sort of interview at Temple med (which I find very odd because he talks a lot about the PCOM, Caribbean MD, and Pod interviews)

-99% of his (or her ... I'm sorry, I just realized I'm unsure of Philly's sex) posts from there on out are in the pod forums, discussing issues in pod, etc.

I could go on (although I admittedly did a very quick search and could have missed something), but this pretty much sums up my confusion.
 
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