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Hours worked per week in office?
Are evenings or Saturdays required?
Hours per week worked outside of office?
Call requirements?
Hospital rounding?
Nursing home/assisted living/home visits?
Benefits?
How much vacation/sick time.
Paid or unpaid?
Potential for partnership?
Are evenings or Saturdays required?
Hours per week worked outside of office?
Call requirements?
Hospital rounding?
Nursing home/assisted living/home visits?
Benefits?
How much vacation/sick time.
Paid or unpaid?
Potential for partnership?
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Bump
It has been established that newer out of school pods (0-5 or 0-10yrs out, not yet ABFAS board cert, etc) don't answer the surveys (ACAFAS, APMA, even PM News) at a very high rate. Just look at the demographics of the results of any major survey. A lot of people who answer are the DPMs with org jobs and higher incomes (esp ACFAS survey with roughly a third responding as hospital employ) or senior docs +/- PP owner (PM News with 24% responding as employing DPM associates), but in the real world, those are the small minority of overall podiatrists. Also, anyone who has done those surveys knows there is not much holding them to necessarily be accurate with their info.
I think we all know that most new DPM grads are fairly embarrassed of the pay they get their podiatry jobs (relative to the time in school, debt incurred, MD/DO incomes). I definitely was. I was embarrassed even before I found out I'd be working Saturdays... or doing "late day" til 6pm with notes after... or being on-call... or figured out what my monthly student loan payment was. First you blissfully assume income will increase, then you try to live frugal, then you start to get mad or hopeless. It is a very tough place to be. There is a reason barely any decent MD/DO wants to work VA/IHS or small rural hospital pay or locations, yet DPMs are jumping over one another to try for those jobs. Pods are desperate to get out of associate work. Our ROI is sad. Even the venerated DPM hospital jobs are typically less than half the pay for employed ortho or other MD/DO surgeons.
...The fact of the matter is that the podiatry salaries are basically what is advertised for podiatry (circa $150k or a bit more for PP associates, $225k for VA/IHS, and a bit more for some private hospitals or MSGs). A few of the PP jobs might sign people for a bit more than posted in their ad (but they can just recoup it by fudging down collections, counting net DME, not counting DME or not counting OTC, "forgetting" to count some copays, or a million other ways). The hospital and MSG jobs pay basically what they advertise (or more commonly, smart ones do not post widely); very few will pay more... and why would they with hundreds of applications in the first week?
As long as we have 500-600+ podiatry grads every year (plus all of the past year grads who missed good jobs) trying to apply and network for the maybe 100 or fewer organizational podiatry jobs with decent pay, the job and DPM compensation market is going to be in rough shape.
I think we all know that most new DPM grads are fairly embarrassed of the pay they get their podiatry jobs (relative to the time in school, debt incurred, MD/DO incomes). I definitely was. I was embarrassed even before I found out I'd be working Saturdays... or doing "late day" til 6pm with notes after... or being on-call... or figured out what my monthly student loan payment was. First you blissfully assume income will increase, then you try to live frugal, then you start to get mad or hopeless. It is a very tough place to be. There is a reason barely any decent MD/DO wants to work VA/IHS or small rural hospital pay or locations, yet DPMs are jumping over one another to try for those jobs. Pods are desperate to get out of associate work. Our ROI is sad. Even the venerated DPM hospital jobs are typically less than half the pay for employed ortho or other MD/DO surgeons.
...The fact of the matter is that the podiatry salaries are basically what is advertised for podiatry (circa $150k or a bit more for PP associates, $225k for VA/IHS, and a bit more for some private hospitals or MSGs). A few of the PP jobs might sign people for a bit more than posted in their ad (but they can just recoup it by fudging down collections, counting net DME, not counting DME or not counting OTC, "forgetting" to count some copays, or a million other ways). The hospital and MSG jobs pay basically what they advertise (or more commonly, smart ones do not post widely); very few will pay more... and why would they with hundreds of applications in the first week?
As long as we have 500-600+ podiatry grads every year (plus all of the past year grads who missed good jobs) trying to apply and network for the maybe 100 or fewer organizational podiatry jobs with decent pay, the job and DPM compensation market is going to be in rough shape.
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I’m a young doctor so I’ll start by answering all the questions on the page. Then ask my own question.
Base 240k
Structure - Not MGMA, or RVU. Mine is AMGA based and bonus based on collections
Call - split 3 ways
DME - part of collections. They dont have orthotics yet so I need to get that established
Jobs applied - 60-70
Call backs - 25
Interviews 10
Relocated to city of choice. I tried the whole apply rural thing. Still crap offers so I quit and decided to go all in on where I wanted to be.
4 days clinic and hospital rounding/surgeries 8am-5pm. 1 surgery day, weekend hospital rounding,
No nursing home visits yet.
10k sign on bonus
1.5k CME with 5 days
10 days PTO +3 added annually
Healthcare and standard credentialing paid for.
No partnership, but promotion in 3 years.
Background:
I have basically been living a lie for the past 4 years of schools and 3 years of residency. Always told myself I am going to make over 200k as a podiatrist. Pretty much on repeat and would not stop applying until I landed my job. Despite the dozens of bad offers and stories on here and from podiatrists I know, I just refused to believe I would make less.
Question:
Did you go to school with this same belief or are you already aware of the $150k job market?
Base 240k
Structure - Not MGMA, or RVU. Mine is AMGA based and bonus based on collections
Call - split 3 ways
DME - part of collections. They dont have orthotics yet so I need to get that established
Jobs applied - 60-70
Call backs - 25
Interviews 10
Relocated to city of choice. I tried the whole apply rural thing. Still crap offers so I quit and decided to go all in on where I wanted to be.
4 days clinic and hospital rounding/surgeries 8am-5pm. 1 surgery day, weekend hospital rounding,
No nursing home visits yet.
10k sign on bonus
1.5k CME with 5 days
10 days PTO +3 added annually
Healthcare and standard credentialing paid for.
No partnership, but promotion in 3 years.
Background:
I have basically been living a lie for the past 4 years of schools and 3 years of residency. Always told myself I am going to make over 200k as a podiatrist. Pretty much on repeat and would not stop applying until I landed my job. Despite the dozens of bad offers and stories on here and from podiatrists I know, I just refused to believe I would make less.
Question:
Did you go to school with this same belief or are you already aware of the $150k job market?
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No offense but since when is 200k a lot of money as a doctor in a HCOL area working 5 days a week + hospital call?
The only way to kill it in this field is to run your own shop.
I love how employers love to say we paid all the fees so you can do your job and make money off of you and that's a 'benefit.'
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Sadly, many jobs out there do not cover these fees.
200k is enough for me to be able to pay my loans and live a good life. Especially if the call is not bad. Other professions work longer hours for less. I think that should be the bare minimum for full time podiatry.
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Tell me you're single without telling me you're single.
vs.
Tell me your spouse also makes good money without telling me your spouse also makes good money.
Yes, this is the bottom line. ^^
After the debt and the taxes and the workload, $200k is borderline terrible ROI.
It is common sense the $150k associate podiatry jobs for $400k debt + 7 or 8yrs of training are bad ROI, but the $200k and $250k ones aren't very good either.
When the podiatrists who are 'doing really well' relative to their peers are often working very hard and seeing many patients to be making the ROI of a FP or Peds or doctor (who usually takes no call or weekend rounds... and has choice of locations), that's not good. That's the problem. This is Medscape 2023 physician compensation results below, and 90% of podiatrists are below the bottom bar. We are saturated. Our podiatry average annual compensation by specialty is waaay below any of these listed:
Humble brag works best once you have worked a day on the job? 🙂
I hope it goes well and the job turns out good.
I'd pay down loans fast and get EF built and avoid counting other surgeon/specialties' money.
As said, the money goes faster than you'd think once you make your budget.
If the admins are good, you will probably like it awhile; you've outkicked the DPM average - for new grads and even most exp ones.
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Bonus will put me well over 300k closer to 500k.Yes, this is the bottom line. ^^
After the debt and the taxes and the workload, $200k is borderline terrible ROI.
It is common sense the $150k associate podiatry jobs for $400k debt + 7 or 8yrs of training are bad ROI, but the $200k and $250k ones aren't very good either.
When the podiatrists who are 'doing really well' relative to their peers are often working very hard and seeing many patients to be making the ROI of a FP or Peds or doctor (who usually takes no call or weekend rounds... and has choice of locations), that's not good. That's the problem. This is Medscape 2023 physician compensation results below, and 90% of podiatrists are below the bottom bar. We are saturated. Our podiatry average annual compensation by specialty is waaay below any of these listed:
Humble brag works best once you have worked a day on the job? 🙂
I hope it goes well and the job turns out good.
I'd pay down loans fast and get EF built and avoid counting other surgeon/specialties' money.
As said, the money goes faster than you'd think once you make your budget.
If the admins are good, you will probably like it awhile; you've outkicked the DPM average - for new grads and even most exp ones.
I agree with your loan approach. Dave Ramsey style.
But even if I was only making family practice money of 200-250k I would have been happy too. That is what I planned my life around.
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Harder to do with kids. If I was single/no kids I'd feel the same. Things change when you have mouths to feed and want to give back to your spouse who supported you through school/residency. Not knocking you-just saying the perspective is different for certain people in different stages of life. 200k to you does not offer them the same flexibility
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And to think if you actually billed properly as suggested by your clinical vignettes you posted on here, you'd either be closer to 750k or in jail for fraud.
Only in podiatry can residents teach coding and $300k closer to $500k jobs... and fellows lecture about burnout and how to perform advanced surgery.
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I will make close to 300k with base + bonus in my upcoming job (first job post residency). Inflation and insane housing market makes this so much less than it was even 5 years ago, especially because I have a wife and kids to support. Can’t imagine having to settle for a $150k PP associate job after all these years of sacrifice though.
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Can all of these graduating residents just brag when they have done their first job for at least 6 months?
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Or when they finish that first year and find out theyve been bamboozled out of that nice bonus and talk of partnership
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It's not bragging as long as it's for information purposes. In theory, these forums exist so pre-health students know what the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is going to look like. So if Podiatry Craze truly is getting this salary, it's informative for all of us to find out what it took to get there AND what the employers are expecting in return.
It does strike me as odd that we only hear from the people who land the high paying jobs, however...
It does strike me as odd that we only hear from the people who land the high paying jobs, however...
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Here is mid 6 figure opportunity for them. Yes the owner has a mustache.
Live the Dream in North Georgia in the Lake Lanier Area
Gruen Podiatry
Dawsonville, GA 30534
Live, work and play in the sought after suburbs north of Atlanta. Lake Lanier, with 700 miles of shoreline, is the largest recreation area in the southeast outside of Orlando.
Live on the Lake!
This is a ground floor opportunity for the right person to have a mid 6-figure income within a few years at this 23 year old established practice.
Surgical opportunities are unlimited for the right person.
Salary + commission, malpractice, health insurance, PTO, and CME stipend are just the beginning.
Be busy from day 1.
No ER or Hospital Call unless you want it.
This practice is a healthy mix of everything. It is totally open for any type of surgical practice you would like.
Eventual partnership is available.
Fully equipped with computerized X-ray, laser and Vascular ABI machines. Please send CV and cover letter to:
[email protected]
Job Type: Full-time
Pay: $100,000.00 - $110,000.00 per year
Live the Dream in North Georgia in the Lake Lanier Area
Gruen Podiatry
Dawsonville, GA 30534
Live, work and play in the sought after suburbs north of Atlanta. Lake Lanier, with 700 miles of shoreline, is the largest recreation area in the southeast outside of Orlando.
Live on the Lake!
This is a ground floor opportunity for the right person to have a mid 6-figure income within a few years at this 23 year old established practice.
Surgical opportunities are unlimited for the right person.
Salary + commission, malpractice, health insurance, PTO, and CME stipend are just the beginning.
Be busy from day 1.
No ER or Hospital Call unless you want it.
This practice is a healthy mix of everything. It is totally open for any type of surgical practice you would like.
Eventual partnership is available.
Fully equipped with computerized X-ray, laser and Vascular ABI machines. Please send CV and cover letter to:
[email protected]
Job Type: Full-time
Pay: $100,000.00 - $110,000.00 per year
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Sounds like a podunk town in nowhereville GA. This aint no "suburb of Atlanta."
The median income for a household in the city was $34,327, and the median income for a family was $39,000. Males had a median income of $27,500 versus $25,125 for females.
You'll literally be on the ground floor trimming nails
Unless it interferes with running off to nursing homes in the area
And unpaid call is the end
Because the practice manager is gonna dump so many crappy insurance plans on you.
When he dies and is forced to sell
Whew its not silver film x-ray!
Yahoo or AOL or hotmail = old timer
Yeah, it's the same with the surveys (by and large): most of the responding are doing well and want to show it.
In reality the majority of podiatry pgy3 and felllows are not happy with their first job... and especially unhappy with the pay.
But just wait until the fall...
We always get the waves of pgy3 beginning job search coming to SDN new accounts:
"wtf is the DPM job market... these offers can't be for real... where are all the good jobs?!?!?!"
😢😱...Plus, don't forget, it's the internet. I can be a 7 foot ripped dude playing NBA with Elon Musk money and a garage full of Euro cars who does podiatry just for personal fun. 🙂
You’re not gonna live on the lake if youre making 100k lol
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I honestly want to thank you and the others for educating me on what not to do. I am not the only one you saved from going away in cuffs. Many readers also now know what overcoding looks like
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Not going to lie. Sometimes I do worry how the future will turn out. Had a nasty ABFAS hitpiece drafted about my job hunt, but then decided not to post. Even if I failed in finding a good job I would have posted my journey. And I will post my progress later on if I bonus or if I don’t.
As far as bragging, I am doing it for a few reasons.
1 to show ABPM has the same earning potential as ABFAS.
2 to show others if they apply strategically, or in mass, that a good job exists.
3 200k should be the standard. The more people that realize that, the sooner we hit it.
4 I definitely do not want to encourage more students to apply thinking this field is profitable. The job hunt is no joke.
Thought about doxxing myself previously for credibility but was advised not to.
I code surgeries like an absolute *****. I google the surgery and type whatever code some people on a forum argued over what’s correct.
Surgery doesn’t pay well for me but I think it’s likely because I’m doing it the “right” way by keeping it simple and doing 1 code for a surgery rather than 5
This is plain untrue and dangerous thinking. It has been proven again and again by income surveys by multiple organizations. It is also common sense to anyone actually out in practice and who has searched for jobs - or those who have ever screened CVs for jobs. I would be 100% certain that if you applied to dozens of jobs, you found plenty that preferred or would not interview non-ABFAS apps.
It is good if you found a desired job with BQ for one of them (I don't even think you can be ABPM cert while still a resident?), but the vast majority of good podiatry employed jobs will prefer - or absolutely require - ABFAS qual/cert. ABPM does very little as any DPM can pass it. That is a simple fact.
A simple search of the forums or talking to anyone who has searched for hospital jobs shows you that ABFAS cert is a leg up and even if the job will accept ABPM, ABFAS is still very often a way to get higher paid for having demonstrably more skill (esp govt hospitals). A whole lot more hospital jobs and org jobs open up once a DPM achieves ABFAS cert, and RRA cert is even rarer and higher compensated in surveys.
Again, it's fine if you found a job with just ABPM or don't want to pursue ABFAS or failed ABFAS or whatever. There are absolutely exceptions to the rule where people get good jobs or full privileges with ABPM... but I would not discourage anyone else from seeking ABFAS cert that is most appropriate for a podiatrist doing surgery and will help them get the best ROI on their DPM degree. 👍
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My sample size of jobs is probably not large enough to make a blanket statement. I agree.
But I am not just talking about my end result. In the search my next highest offer was a $190k ABPM job with no bonus.
The highest ABFAS offer I had was $120k no bonus. There was an interview for $140k + bonus but I did not continue.
I did get rejected from some 200k+ hospital jobs for unstated reasons. And it could have been because of the ABPM but I am positive dozens of other ABFAS applicants were also weeded out.
D
deleted285117
I always find it comical that the vast majority of DPM associate jobs have statements like “must be ABFAS BQ/BC”… to what? Make that awesome 140k salary? Clowns.
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D
deleted1162946
I got low $200s base salary. $15k sign on. $10k moving, 21 PTO that rolls over, Bonus of 35% of 400k collection.
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I feel like I've seen quite a few posts recently where people describe the need for either income or a home price that is higher than I make / higher than I would pay, but then I remember just how wild the last 5 years have been.
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You can do very well or poorly with ABFAS or ABPM. If established and doing well it does nit matter in many areas. Until one is established ABFAS offers at least some real advantages in an already difficult job market over ABPM for certain jobs. Saturation is the larger problem.
Agree that if one out hustles others and is geographically open their odds of getting a better job are higher. Unfortunately if everyone does this there is ultimately not enough good jobs for all. Many will need to take the associate jibs or open their own office due to saturation.
Should be, but will not be anytime soon due to saturation.
Podiatry can be profitable, but is certainly not guaranteed to be that way for everyone.
Yup, the job search is no joke and no cake walk for someone established either if the need or desire arises.
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This statement is true. IF everybody hustled and networked and applied early then there would not be enough. What I am saying is NOT everybody will do this. Be the one of few who takes the extra initiative
Do spend time learning real medicine and surgery. Do not waste time gaming a test that will give you more access to the same bad job, and set you up for years of logging for a chance to pass and get certified through a flawed system.
It is common to think that once you got - or think you've gotten - what you want (in this case, a fair pay job), that you don't need anything or anybody. Be a bit careful with that. It has bitten many people. People throughout podiatry. People you know. People who post on SDN. Throughout medicine. Fwiw, I'm solo office and all about being as independent as possible from bosses, admins, payers, certain facilities, etc... but we are all still interdependent.
You will need to keep case logs regardless of what you may think. The ABFAS logging site actually works pretty well, and I have used its info to produce a current post-residency log dozens of times. You will need accomplish case logging some other way if you are not ABFAS qual or choosing not to log on PLS. It is unwise to expect for each of your hospitals to produce them when you leave or are about to leave and then have them organized; that is unreliable at best.
Throughout your career, facilities will routinely ask for your logs from residency (download your signed PRR log with director verification in PDF from PRR website... then save it in a few places and back it up). The same goes for ACFAS arthroscopy course cert or any other skill courses. The facilities will also ask for logs of cases since residency (for initial hospital appointments, for renewals, for special privileges, for job apps).
And again, if you think ABFAS is "more access to the same bad job," then you just have no idea how things work. GL
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I've had a huge problem with the podiatricsurgery.net case logs. Everytime I need to produce case logs for something it prints them out in seemingly random orders, with cases from 2017 next to 2023 next to 2021.
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You didn't create and save an Excel file? I have used it multiple times for credentialing and haven't logged into that site for 3 plus years
I vote for same as above... download your file ABFAS log on podiatricsurgery.net in Excel file format... you can sort by date, proc, pt, etc based on what you need.
If you do PDF form, it turns out clunky and kinda random order. It's a good log system overall, though... beats the heck out of manual logging everything or the random incorrect lists hospitals usually take many weeks and re-requests to give.
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Maybe they meant literally living on a boat.
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So I recently did the math just as a comparison.
In 2021, median US house price was $347k with a 2.9% 30yr fixed. That's a $1,444 monthly payment.
In 2024, median US house price is $433k with a 7.5% 30yr fixed. That's a $3,033 monthly payment.
So just using those figures you can see that someone that finished residency in 2021 would be paying less than half what a current grad is going to pay for their mortgage. That's insane. The housing market in my area has gone up 50% since 2021, so a 300k house (fairly standard starter home price) is now 450k. Those numbers make the mortgage go from $1,249 to $3,146 (up 252%).
All of that is just to show how what was a decent pay in 2021 may no longer be viable.
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