Poll: Pitt or Tufts

[Mr. Rosewater]

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well, first off, UPMC is a USNWR honor roll hospital. they do a huge volume and they are a profitable conglomerate. Is it JHU? No, but it's top 10-15. If you're not gonna grant that a spot at UPMC is a prestigious match, then this arguement won't go for. anyway, if we have to restrict this to non-UPMC matches alone than 2003 had these competitive matches:

GAS:
Duke
Penn
Mayo

Ortho:
Penn
UVa

ENT:
Cleveland clinic
NY EYE AND EAR
Georgetown

Uro:
Stanford

and there were many other great matches in stuff like IM and EM Gen surg. etc at very well known hospitals. i just don't see Tufts at quite the same level. again though, i like tufts, and certainly the 20th student at tufts will get a better spot than the 50th student at pitt (which might not be true of harvard), but pitt will give some advantage.

EDIT TO ADD:
I just realized how subjective rating matchlists really can be. i don't wanna start arguing about specific matches (which is what this post invited). Let's just say i made this choice, and i chose pitt. i think most pple would've made the same choice. some wouldn't. as long as we're all happy w/ our choices than se la vie.

 

[meanderson]

that's it, i'm done.

my point was that Tufts matches just as well as many schools ranked above it. no one has refuted me, and despite accusations, i did not say anything that was not backed up with substantial evidence.

sorry to bring sinai "down" to tufts level, but hey, facts are facts. perhaps now those looking at places from steeltown to new brunswick have real reason to reconsider.

😀

I actually think we agree on this matter more than you think, so this will be my last post on the subject. I think that unless we go to Harvard or Hopkins or Stanford, we'll find out in about 4 years that our matching opportunities have a lot more to do with what we actually accomplished in medical school than whether we went to a school ranked #13-25, #30-40, #50-60, etc. That's one reason I'm probably opting out of a higher ranked private school for a public school that I know I can match very well from if I work hard.

Premeds in general worry way too much about rankings outside the top few schools. Most PD's couldn't tell you whether Tufts was ranked #40 or #46 or #37. It just doesn't matter. If a PD in Chicago(I specifically picked chicago to avoid geographical bias) sees one applicant from Tufts and one from George Washington, he isn't going to make any distinction at all based on the differences in the qualities of those schools(if there are any??). It's going to come down to other things.

And finally, I know I've already mentioned geographical bias, but this is why match lists just don't tell the whole story. Look at Baylor. Great match list, but one could actually argue that there are some schools ranked in the #40's that have a wider geographic student base which have equally good match lists. That doesn't mean their reputations are equal, and in fact Baylor grads who do apply outside of Texas and the south do extremely well in the match.

Anyway, that's it for me in this thread. Good luck at Tufts bearpaw; they do have a lot of great matches and good luck in getting one(if that's your ultimate goal)

 

[pekq]

Alright, I've devised an (imperfect) system of gauging the matchlist of a particular school. For each competitive specialty match (only derm, optha, radio, neurosurg, ortho, plastic and urology), the school gets 2 pt. For each match into a hospital on US New's honor roll, the school gets 2 pt. So for a neurosurg match at JHU from tuft, tuft would get 4 pt. To nullify the advantage a school would have for their direct affiliation with an honor roll hospital, they only get 1 pt for each match rather than 2 (eg Upitt to Upitt internal med gets 1 pt). The total points are divided by class size to factor in the fact that larger classes are more likely to have more competitive matches. It's not perfect but it's consistent so should balance out. I am open to changes though.

I've only scored 2004 res match for Tuft, Vandy, MSSM, and UPitt since it's relevant to this thread
Here goes:
school score specialty pt honor roll pt avg class size
Vandy 1.55 42 119 104
UPitt 0.99 48 94 144
MSSM 0.79 32 52 106
Tufts 0.61 60 46 173

Maybe i'll score all the top50 school when i get really bored.

Edit: I do acknowledge that people don't always choose to go to honor roll schools or competitive specialties even when they could. I personally think higher ranked school's students tend to favor less procedural medicine. However, I have no idea how to factor that in. Any suggestion?

 

[VCMM414]

Alright, I've devised an (imperfect) system of gauging the matchlist of a particular school. For each competitive specialty match (only derm, optha, radio, neurosurg, ortho, plastic and urology), the school gets 2 pt. For each match into a hospital on US New's honor roll, the school gets 2 pt. So for a neurosurg match at JHU from tuft, tuft would get 4 pt. To nullify the advantage a school would have for their direct affiliation with an honor roll hospital, they only get 1 pt for each match rather than 2 (eg Upitt to Upitt internal med gets 1 pt). The total points are divided by class size to factor in the fact that larger classes are more likely to have more competitive matches. It's not perfect but it's consistent so should balance out. I am open to changes though.

I've only scored 2004 res match for Tuft, Vandy, MSSM, and UPitt since it's relevant to this thread
Here goes:
school score specialty pt honor roll pt avg class size
Vandy 1.55 42 119 104
UPitt 0.99 48 94 144
MSSM 0.79 32 52 106
Tufts 0.61 60 46 173

Maybe i'll score all the top50 school when i get really bored.

Edit: I do acknowledge that people don't always choose to go to honor roll schools or competitive specialties even when they could. I personally think higher ranked school's students tend to favor less procedural medicine. However, I have no idea how to factor that in. Any suggestion?

Yea. You seemed to have left out ENT matches. Certainly one of the toughest.

 

[Mr. Rosewater]

wow, that's pretty interesting work Pekq. not that this is something worth redoing it over, but if you decide to do this for all 50, then i'd add ENT into the mix. also, i'm not sure how fair it is to cut the honor roll advantage by 2 if it happens to be the affililated hospital. that's actually one of the advantages of going to a school w/ an honor roll hospital.

 

[pekq]

wow, that's pretty interesting work Pekq. not that this is something worth redoing it over, but if you decide to do this for all 50, then i'd add ENT into the mix. also, i'm not sure how fair it is to cut the honor roll advantage by 2 if it happens to be the affililated hospital. that's actually one of the advantages of going to a school w/ an honor roll hospital.

I guess I'll add in ENT later. As for affiliated hospital, I pondered on that a lot too. I wanted the list to reflect a school's ability to place you where you want to be. Obviously, you get a huge advantage at your own school. Thus I was going to give no point. But then I also acknowledge the strong rep of an affiliated hospital may cause their own students to want to match there or maybe the students want to stay in the same locale. The 1 point instead of 2 point is a compromise of sort. I am interested in what others think.

 

[Odaroloc]

USNews self-perpetuates the ranking. I bet MSSM's best residency match will be next year. Those students matriculated when MSSM was ranked 22. After that year, there will be a drop in residency matchlist since MSSM dropped below 30 the following year.

On that note, UPitt's residency matchlist is going to skyrocket as they have been climbing the US News ranking. Tufts on the other hand will probably drop as their US News ranking has been dropping.

Tufts rank went up this yr. (med to 40 and Ugrad to 27 or something)

BTW what schools would you guys lump Loyola with? Tufts/Jeff/MSSM/GW/Pitt et al or NYMC/Finch etc? Just curious because you dont usually hear it mentioned as a low rung.

 

[VCMM414]

I guess I'll add in ENT later. As for affiliated hospital, I pondered on that a lot too. I wanted the list to reflect a school's ability to place you where you want to be. Obviously, you get a huge advantage at your own school. Thus I was going to give no point. But then I also acknowledge the strong rep of an affiliated hospital may cause their own students to want to match there or maybe the students want to stay in the same locale. The 1 point instead of 2 point is a compromise of sort. I am interested in what others think.

What if people just want to stay in the region, even if their hospital is not ranked by USNews? For example, I don't think Texas Methodist is ranked, but I think many Baylor kids match there. Because of Baylor's preference toward Texas premed applicants, it's not inconceivable that many of them would want to stay after graduation. But under your system, Baylor's matchlist would be considered pretty weak.

Likewise, what about specialty hospitals? For example, Bascom is a top ranked ophthal program, but UMiami is not a ranked hopsital. People that match at Bascom will receive only 2 pts in contrast to those who match at Hopkins' Wilmer (3 or 4 pts, depending on whether or not they are Hopkins grads). You get the idea...

 

[bostonguy]

Thanks BearPaw

 

[bostonguy]

Thanks BearPaw

 

[prana_md]

No, seriously, I need some real discussion on this subject, not just statistics.

I'm in Boston now, will be interviewing on Tuesday, and I already have a Pitt acceptance. (Thank g-d or whatever higher power helped with that one!) I loved Pitt, and it had nothing to do with rankings. Their focus on student "health" -- making well-rounded doctors -- was amazing. Every student there I met seemed happy, even the poor MD/PhD who ventured out of his lab to have lunch with us.

Now I'm in Boston, and I love the city. I lived in England for a while, and Boston feels like a mix of the best of both worlds. I'm eager to see what Tufts has to offer -- I know they have a 4-year MPH program that's interesting, but I also know they're one of the most expensive schools in the country.

Any thoughts? Real thoughts? 😳

 

[Jon Davis]

.........

 

[Jon Davis]

Pound for pound, Pitt is the best pick. Kind of a useless poll if you ask me.

 

[silas2642]

Pound for pound, Pitt is the best pick. Kind of a useless poll if you ask me.

Oh, give me a break. You don't know, I don't know, none of us know. We're going into this process rather blindly, don't you think? The fact of the matter is both schools have good reputations, and a medical student would probably do fine if they went to either school.

 

[Jon Davis]

Oh, give me a break. You don't know, I don't know, none of us know. We're going into this process rather blindly, don't you think? The fact of the matter is both schools have good reputations, and a medical student would probably do fine if they went to either school.

No, I won't give you a break.

You can extand that opinion to ANY comparison of medical schools. Do the research and compare the costs, cirriculum, faculty, etc. No one goes into this blindly at all, we just don't know the outcome which is heavily based on OUR performance. There is plenty of opportunity to research a school from the inside out.

 

[silas2642]

No, I won't give you a break.

You can extand that opinion to ANY comparison of medical schools. Do the research and compare the costs, cirriculum, faculty, etc. No one goes into this blindly at all, we just don't know the outcome which is heavily based on OUR performance. There is plenty of opportunity to research a school from the inside out.

Still disagree with you, and strongly. How can you see that Pitt is definitely better than any school? I mean, the ratings and so forth don't really tell you anything except how much money is going in and some obscure person's opinion of a particular school. Who gives a crap? I definitely think that Pitt has a tendency to be overrated-- what makes Pitt better than any other given school? Do their students have less flatulence? Are they better looking, more compassionate, or have whiter coats that are better starched than the rest of us?

Look, it's nice to think that we "know which schools are better than others," but as a fourth year pointed out in one of the med school forums, a lot of the crap that we consider important is, in the long run, complete and total fluff. It doesn't matter. I don't care how much research you do on a school, it's still hard to tell what you're getting into-- demographics, average gpa, average mcat, average board scores; in the end it doesn't really tell you that much. A dean of admissions at one of my interviews said this, along with the fact that most of us don't know how blind we are at this point. So cut out the "of course you go to Pitt" crap because it's not a good choice for everyone.

 

[Jon Davis]

Still disagree with you, and strongly. How can you see that Pitt is definitely better than any school? I mean, the ratings and so forth don't really tell you anything except how much money is going in and some obscure person's opinion of a particular school. Who gives a crap? I definitely think that Pitt has a tendency to be overrated-- what makes Pitt better than any other given school? Do their students have less flatulence? Are they better looking, more compassionate, or have whiter coats that are better starched than the rest of us?

Look, it's nice to think that we "know which schools are better than others," but as a fourth year pointed out in one of the med school forums, a lot of the crap that we consider important is, in the long run, complete and total fluff. It doesn't matter. I don't care how much research you do on a school, it's still hard to tell what you're getting into-- demographics, average gpa, average mcat, average board scores; in the end it doesn't really tell you that much. A dean of admissions at one of my interviews said this, along with the fact that most of us don't know how blind we are at this point. So cut out the "of course you go to Pitt" crap because it's not a good choice for everyone.

Blah blah blah, what you said is not what everyone considers "research" when it comes to picking a school. The research I was referring to also includes many things like interviews, what you think about the campus, etc. Should have I listed all of them for you? Think outside the box. BTW, I can see where you loyalties are:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=3246940#post3246940

In addtion, what you wanted to show as evidence was just the opinions of others. That holds no real weight.

"I don't care how much research you do on a school, it's still hard to tell what you're getting into-- demographics, average gpa, average mcat, average board scores; in the end it doesn't really tell you that much."

What you are saying is that any information on a school has no value? 🙄 Yeah, OK. I'm done with this.

I have no interest in either school. Pitt is still better.

 

[silas2642]

Blah blah blah, what you said is not what everyone considers "research" when it comes to picking a school. The research I was referring to also includes many things like interviews, what you think about the campus, etc. Should have I listed all of them for you? Think outside the box. BTW, I can see where you loyalties are:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=3246940#post3246940

In addtion, what you wanted to show as evidence was just the opinions of others. That holds no real weight.

"I don't care how much research you do on a school, it's still hard to tell what you're getting into-- demographics, average gpa, average mcat, average board scores; in the end it doesn't really tell you that much."

What you are saying is that any information on a school has no value? 🙄 Yeah, OK. I'm done with this.

I have no interest in either school. Pitt is still better.

You got me, I'm going to Tufts next year; out of curiosity, where are you heading next fall?

 

[Orthodoc40]

Why would anyone chose to live in Pittsburgh for 4 years when they could live in Boston?? 😕 Pitt is no better a school than Tufts - people who think so are seriously misinformed.

 

[silas2642]

Why would anyone chose to live in Pittsburgh for 4 years when they could live in Boston?? 😕 Pitt is no better a school than Tufts - people who think so are seriously misinformed.

yay!! thank you!! go red sox!!

 

[yodel]

Why would anyone chose to live in Pittsburgh for 4 years when they could live in Boston?? 😕 Pitt is no better a school than Tufts - people who think so are seriously misinformed.

i see so many posts on sdn bashing pitt and saying it was overrated. then i realized that all of them were from like 2 people, so i stopped worrying about it.

also, i've lived in boston most of my life and i can honestly say that tufts and its affiliated hospital aren't really in a very nice part of boston. i don't know much about the school itself, and i'm sure it has a good program, but it's a pretty bleh area (right by chinatown). i remember as a little kid, driving by the tufts school of medicine building
then again, it's pretty much in downtown boston, so i guess that's aite.

 

[medicomel]

to anyone that has to choose between tufts and pitt, please go to tufts. i'd like to get off pitt's waitlist. 😛

 

[wowzer]

I posted this on another thread...i'm sure we can argue one way or another for these schools, but the real ranking (here come the cheesy part) is how your interests match with the school. feel free to give your personal reasons about one school vs. the other...its better tan stupid US NEWS rankings.
a little bit about me..

LOCATION/WEATHER: i'm from detroit, went to school in baltimore...Pittsburgh is looking like paradise right now.

IMPACT FROM INTERVIEW: I thought UPitt was the best school out of he ones I've visited so far. While they don't have a consolidated basic science program in order to make way for more clinical experience and electives as Duke, their simulation center will undoubtedly help me in mastering my clinical skills and probably correlates well with board/step II scores.

CLARIFY THE RANKINGS:
So there is a lot of dissent about the rankings, and to bring some clarity to this situation:

1. the same weight is given to student opinion as to residency director's ratings. YOUR opinion isn't determined by whether it's a 4.0 or a 4.3, trust me.
2. Only 30% of res. directors even return their surveys to USNews
3. there is no distinction between what specialties are higher ranked at a particular school in terms of a.) medical school research funding, and b.) quality of the specialty as practiced in an affiliated hospital.
4. If you are interested in surgery subspecialties, remember that most schools require a year of prelim/gen. surgery before going into the specific program. I was originally frustrated when I saw about the same number of Prelim-Gen. Surgery matches for many different schools.
5. Going to a higher-ranked (usnews) school doesn't guarantee ANYTHING. Heavy research experience is needd for ANY competitive residency. Notice how many of the competitive schools for certain residencies have ~30% of residents with MD/PhDs.

MATCH OF PERSONAL INTEREST: Let me clarify why Pitt is the school for me, and hopefully other people will research the schools in depth to see if they meets their career goals.
Ex: I want to go into neuosurgery:
- PittMed: #2 Neurosurgery NIH Funding (2002) http://www.residentphysician.com/Ne...ry_rankings.htm
- Ranked Top 15 for practice in the hosptial (UPMC) (Usnews.com)
- Start my research work there a few months before medical school (February!)

Put all this together: Pitt = #1 🙂 🙂 🙂

The main point is, find the ranking system that works for you. If you have interest in a certain specialty and don't mind a couple of snowstorms and 10 months of cold weather, then sites like residentphysician.com may be more helpful then USnews.com

 

[Orthodoc40]

No, seriously, I need some real discussion on this subject, not just statistics.

I'm in Boston now, will be interviewing on Tuesday, and I already have a Pitt acceptance. (Thank g-d or whatever higher power helped with that one!) I loved Pitt, and it had nothing to do with rankings. Their focus on student "health" -- making well-rounded doctors -- was amazing. Every student there I met seemed happy, even the poor MD/PhD who ventured out of his lab to have lunch with us.

Now I'm in Boston, and I love the city. I lived in England for a while, and Boston feels like a mix of the best of both worlds. I'm eager to see what Tufts has to offer -- I know they have a 4-year MPH program that's interesting, but I also know they're one of the most expensive schools in the country.

Any thoughts? Real thoughts? 😳

I think you're going to have to decide which school is the best fit for you in the end. Otherwise you'll be thinking "I should never have read those posts on SDN!" later 😉

But really - I do have MANY friends from England, and other parts of Western Europe, and they have all felt incredibly comfortable with Boston as a city - you saying its a mix of the best of both worlds echoes almost all of their sentiments exactly. As you know, Boston is 'a college town'. There's a ton to do here, whether the Tufts campus impresses you or not. That is only a small part of what is nearby.

Tufts is expensive - no question. But if it really has gone up in the "rankings", which are only about the amount of research funding coming into the school, then perhaps they will offer a better financial package with an acceptance? That is something you'll have to wait & see on, of course... At work I have talked to current Tufts students on their surgical rotations, and they are very, very happy with the school & being there. 2 good friends of mine graduated from Tufts, got excellent residencies in competitive specialties, so they're doing well... as are people who graduate from either school, so that's not that important.

Ultimately it will be up to you - use your instinct.

 

[dilated]

Tufts is expensive - no question. But if it really has gone up in the "rankings", which are only about the amount of research funding coming into the school, then perhaps they will offer a better financial package with an acceptance?

Peer Assessment Score (.20)
Assessment Score by Residency Directors (.20)
Total Research Activity (.20)
Average Research Activity Per Faculty Member (.10)
Student Selectivity (.20)
Faculty Resources (.10)

Research makes up less than 1/3rd of the rankings. In a narrow range of rankings (+/- 5 spots) they are irrelevant, but they are useful for highlighting differences between schools.