Possiibility of Matching in Cali

[DJPJ69Camaro]

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Hey folks,

I'm new to this website. So forgive me if I'm going to step on anyone's toes. I'm a 3rd year allopathic medical student in Chicago. Recently, I've been giving more thought to PM&R. But not having been around too long, I don't know how competitive this field is. What do you guys thinks about the competitiveness. I've heard rumors that it's getting harder to get now. So, now my academic profiles is begining to worry me. What do you guys think is a minimum GPA or scores that one needs to get into PM&R at a decent program. My score was average on Step 1. My grades are all B's. including my clinical scores so far except for an A in family med (I've done IM, Surgery, ER, OB/GYN). I have yet to do Pscyh, Neuro, and Peds. Do I still have a chance at California programs? Of if not California, how about New York? What do you think will help me improve my profile for PM&R? Thanks in advance.

DJPJ69Camaro

 

[drvlad2004]

It sounds like your scores are pretty good. Your GPA and board scores are definitely not the biggest factor to obtaining a residency. PM&R programs are really looking for applicant who have fitting attributes to become a PM&R physician. It is a small field and faculty members will place more emphasis on people who can fit well into the field and are truly interested in PM&R. It is imperative to do at least 1 well-rounded rotation in PM&R in order to see if this field is for you. Of course, the PM&R letter of rec is also necessary, nowadays. I have seen people, even during my interviews, that have never done a PM&R elective or had a LOR, which is taboo.

My guess is that you're from California? If so, your chances are very good to land a residency position. I'm a New Yorker. I got interviews from every region in the country except the West Coast. I wish I had applied to Stanford. However, I am happy with the places that I interviewed at, especially in the Northeast and South. I am told that Cali programs are much weaker compared to University of Washington but still very good for people wanting to practice in Cali. You'll have an easier time matching into NYC than Cali, because there's more slots available in NY.

With New York City, those programs are competitive mainly b/c of location and not of quality of the programs. Also the "big" 3 programs (NYU, Mt. Sinai, and Cornell-Columbia) have a big group of residents with a very high patient volume. The New York programs don't care where you come from. A program like Mt. Sinai, which is now a much weaker program, gets tons of applications will interview and match people mostly based on grades. Mount Sinat got 300 applicants this year alone. Since the teaching tends to be on the weak side, the NYC programs are more for people are very "self-motivated." The Long Island programs (Nassau, Stony Brook, and LIJ) are all weak compared to NYC. Each of those programs are working hard to try and improve the curriculum. The 2 NJ programs are much stronger than NY.

I would say that the field is now moderately competitive with the increase of applicants. Well reputed programs like RIC, Kessler, and Spaulding are even much tougher get into. However, there are plenty of good programs that you can fit well into. Do an elective or two (I did 3 electives😀 ) and see if you like the field. If you know PM&R is for you, and I know it is🙂 , try doing a PM&R research elective, do a related 4th year rotation like ortho, neurology, rheumatology, urology, cardiology or neurosurgery. I may not the best person to judge what makes a highly qualified applicants, but from the dozen interviews that I've been to, you have to present a complete package for programs to draw major interest in you.

Good luck!

 

[DJPJ69Camaro]

I am very grateful for your thurough reply. I've been waiting for a New Yorker to give me some inside info in the NY programs. I am definitely considering New York as a possibility if California doesn't work out. At this point, I'm glad to hear that grades and Boards scores are not all they look for. I am planning on doing as many electives as possible to get a feeling for PM&R. Thanks again. And good luck to you and your interviews.

I was also wondering, do you know, or does anyone know anything about combined residency programs with IM and Peds and PM&R?


DJPJ

 

[drvlad2004]

2-3 rotations in PM&R should be more than enough to get a good feel for the specialty. I don't think 1 is enough because you may have a bad experience and gives you a misguided viewpoint about the field. I'm glad that I did 3 electives. It gave me some sort of idea what areas of rehab that might like to do, which is probably TBI and/or preferably outpatient musculoskeletal/sports med.

IM/PM&R residencies: SUNY Buffalo and U of Wisconsin

Peds/PM&R: Colorado, Thomas Jefferson/duPont Children's hospital, Temple, U. of Cincinnati, MCV/VCU

Cincy has always had a solid peds/PM&R program.

Obviously, you have a very limited number programs to choose from. Also, look at programs that have strong peds rotations. B/C of the heavy volume of inpatient done at the NYC hospitals (especially NYU and Mt. Sinai), you will be exposed to a lot of IM. Personally, I'm not a big fan of having too much IM during my PM&R training (hopefully and I cross my fingers as the match results occur next month). However, programs that have strong inpatient rehab will tend to require more IM knowledge.

 

[drvlad2004]

Also pertaining to NYC programs, if you want to get into one of the hospitals (NYU, Mt. Sinai, Cornell-Columbia, and St. Vincent's), definitely do a rotation at one of them. NYU is biased towards students who have done a rotation at the hospital for obvious reasons. From personal experience, the program director and associate program director does look at you more carefully. The same goes with St. Vincent's and Mt. Sinai. I am not sure about Cornell-Columbia.

 

[DJPJ69Camaro]

Thanks again. You have been more helpful to me than all of my sources on PM&R combined. Thanks again. I will definitely look those schools up.

 

[Stinky Tofu]

If you want to match at Stanford of UC Davis, I think an externship there would definitely help. I don't think it's really necessary at the other programs in CA. The programs in CA aren't generally regarded as top-tier programs, but they are still relatively competitive due to the location and the limited number of spots. If matching in CA is a priority, you should apply to every program (especially Irvine and Loma Linda).

 

[joseppi]

sorry if this question is rediculous.... but I can't seem to find the answer. When does one apply for programs that are PGY-2, do you apply during MSIV or during your internship year?
Also, do most people do a rotating internship?

Thanks...

 

[Stinky Tofu]

Unless you are switching fields or didn't match, you would apply for a PGY-2 spot as a MS-IV. I think most PM&R residents do a prelim in medicine, but lately it seems there are more doing TYs.

 

[DJPJ69Camaro]

so if i do an externship, when should i do them. will i have time to travel to california and do my elective before applying for the match? or should i just wait and do my electives in chicago and then do my externships after sending in my application for the match?

 

[Stinky Tofu]

Originally posted by DJPJ69Camaro
so if i do an externship, when should i do them. will i have time to travel to california and do my elective before applying for the match? or should i just wait and do my electives in chicago and then do my externships after sending in my application for the match?

1. Popular months here seem to be August, September, and October. For some reason we currently have three this month. This time last year we didn't have any students.

2. You'd have plenty of time to go California and do your elective.

3. I would do your electives before interview season ends and do them where you want to match. If you just want exposure and it's not to try and impress anyone, stay in Chicago and rotate at RIC. They have a great program there. You might even want to stay in Chicago and do your residency there.

 

[drvlad2004]

Originally posted by DJPJ69Camaro
so if i do an externship, when should i do them. will i have time to travel to california and do my elective before applying for the match? or should i just wait and do my electives in chicago and then do my externships after sending in my application for the match?

I recommend doing the PM&R electives between August and before November. You should be send the ERAS application no later than the beginning of October. Try to send the application as soon as possible (i.e. Sept 1st) since interviews are mainly offered on a rolling basis. Yes, you will definitely have time to do a Cali rotation while applying for the match. The whole application process and doing the electives will occur at the same time.

 

[joseppi]

is it standard protocol for preceptors/ your school to give you time off to travel to interviews etc... I get the impression that if you request any time off you better have some sort of extenuating circumstance. What's the norm?

 

[drvlad2004]

My school does not give time off to travel. It was no problem going to interviews during my clinical rotations. The attendings and residents totally understood that I had to take certain days off for interview. Each attending and resident simply told me that my residency interviews are more important. Do easy rotations (i.e. rads, ER) during interviewing season.

Some schools will ask students to take a month off to interview. Check with your school first.

 

[DJPJ69Camaro]

Speaking of electives? Which electives shold I take beside the actual PM&R elective at the school I want to go too? Do they place a lot of weight on my Internal Medicine Sub Internship? I was thinking of postposing my SubI till later in the year so that I can do as many electives at schools I want to get in good with.

 

[axm397]

The only place where my other rotations were mentioned was at Columbia Cornell. There was an interviewer who had no idea what she was talking about and asked me about my 4th yr int med experiences. When I told her I hadn't done any - (b/c I already did my Med SubI in Neuro my 3rd yr) - she got really confused and agitated. She said she didn't understand my school because she trained in Canada.

NO ONE else has ever commented on my non-PMR rotations. Everyone else was actually impressed that I had done 2 away PMR electives and a subI in PMR at my school before interview season. I also took Step II early my 4th yr so had that score to make up for my Step I. They did read my deans letter and some did comment on how I did on my core rotations. They did like the fact that I had done a neuro rotation.

I've heard that some ppl recommend rotations in rheum, cards, pulm, neuro, and sports/ortho for PMR. However, I think that' s what intern year is for. I have not had any trouble getting interviews with my rotations. 🙂

I would concentrate on the PMR electives (get as broad an exposure as possible) and the possibility of getting good solid LORs from PMR docs. PDs definitely read all the LORs and would help to have more than 1 from a PMR doc. (PMR is a relatively small field and people know each other - most of the PDs knew at least 2 of the 3 LOR writers) They were also impressed that I had managed to get exposure to EMG, P&O, IN-pt, Ortho, Stroke, TBI, SCI, Out-pt, pain management, and consults in my brief time rotating through PMR. You never know what specialty your interviewer will be from so that's another reason to get a nice broad exposure. It also helps you personally to get a good background in PMR and it contributes to your general understanding of the field and its philosophy.

I'm not sure if I would do more than 3 though - it might make your education too skewed.

Anyways, sorry for babbling. Good luck in your endeavor! You're already ahead of the game for finding this website/chat forum.

 

[Finally M3]

Wow, you could do a subI in PMR Axm? That's pretty cool...

I did my subI early 4th year and scheduled Step II a few weeks after. I think it really did help keeping all of the medical management fresh in my head for the exam...I +think+ that the letter of rec I got from my subI attending helped me with the prelim programs I interviewed at, but not much discussion about it during my PMR interviews. They asked me much more about my PMR LORs.

Like Axm, I think that PDs like to see Neuro, Ortho/SportsMed, Rheum as well as possibly Neurosurg and Rads as electives. And besides, Rads has such short work hours!

Originally posted by DJPJ69Camaro
Speaking of electives? Which electives shold I take beside the actual PM&R elective at the school I want to go too? Do they place a lot of weight on my Internal Medicine Sub Internship? I was thinking of postposing my SubI till later in the year so that I can do as many electives at schools I want to get in good with.

 

[DJPJ69Camaro]

Awesome guys. Thanks for that help. I think I will might postpone my SubI until later and focus on my PM&R electives. Luckily my school has Neuro as a core rotation my 3rd year. Unfortunately it's only 3 weeks! And we have to take a shelf exam as the final. What a joke?! But, maybe I'll do another neuro electie if I feel like more neuro. Thanks again.

 

[gbear97]

On the topic of how PM&R residency directors look at an applicant's "total package" of skills, it would seem that DOs receive a training (manipulations, etc.) and philosophy during their medical education that might make them particularly well-suited for PM&R?

Moreover, it seems that a lot of DOs are drawn to the PM&R specialty. So to get to the point, what is the outlook like for MD students who want to go into PM&R? Are they at a disadvantage from the standpoint of training + a lot of DO applicants?

Thanks, appreciate any thoughts on the subject!

 

[axm397]

I had those thoughts too - but different PDs have different philosophies so I don't think that's really an issue.

I think there are programs that DO students call "DO-friendly" (I've heard Mayo, RIC, Ohio State, UMich, etc. mentioned) and "DO-unfriendly" (I've heard Columbia/Cornell, Stanford, UPenn, and Harvard). There are also rumors about "FMG-friendly" programs, and "female friendly" programs that I've heard on the interview trail.

But honestly, I wouldn't put much weight in the rumors. I think the applicants were hinting that if a PD is female, she's going to prefer females and if the PD is an FMG, he is going to prefer FMGs. I'm not sure if its really that simple.

If you are qualified, regardless of what you are, you should get quality interviews. PM&R is getting more competitive but the emphasis is not on grades and board scores - but on the overall character of the applicant. (although some of the more superficial PDs have cut off scores I would say that's more of an exception than the norm) .In my opinion (take it with a grain of salt), the most important factors are NOT whether you are a DO or an FMG or female or anything external but:

1. (the most important) that you have experience in and broad exposure to PM&R - a good understanding of the field - and passion for the field in general (Multiple LORs from PM&R docs a plus - PDs really read those LORs) Along the same lines, committment to the field. A PD told me about an applicant who applied to Radiology, Ortho, Anesthesia, AND PM&R this year - AND admitted to it. probably not the best move.

2. 3rd and 4th yr evals that show you are good at interacting with patients and their families.

3. that you not obviously be an "orthopedic surgeon wanna-be" who just didn't have the grades to make it.

4. that you NOT be a gunner - PM&R docs need to be team players

5. that you have the sensitivity to be able to interact with and be an advocate for the disabled population.


AFTER all of those, then maybe they start looking at grades in PM&R related fields (int med, neuro, rheum,) and PM&R.

Hope this helps ease your anxiety.

 

[joseppi]

on the line of IM subspecialties... next I was want to do a sub-i in IM and can't decide which would be better either chest critical care or rheumatology or maybe endocrine. Any opinions? They all seem to have different aspect that I like in each of them, but obviously I can't do all of them. I only have one month for this rotation.

thanks...

 

[drvlad2004]

Originally posted by joseppi
on the line of IM subspecialties... next I was want to do a sub-i in IM and can't decide which would be better either chest critical care or rheumatology or maybe endocrine. Any opinions? They all seem to have different aspect that I like in each of them, but obviously I can't do all of them. I only have one month for this rotation.

thanks...

I think that rheumatology and endocrine are 2 good choices. With endocrine, getting a good understanding of diabetes management and complications is very important.

DJPJ69Camaro, I waited until November to do my sub-I in IM. It's okay to wait until later to do a sub-I. I disagree with Iserson's recommendation to do the sub-I 1st. That situation is more for students who want to go into the general medical specialties (IM, FP, Peds, Gen. surgery, and Ob/Gyn).

BTW, you can do a sub-I in PM&R at Kessler.

 

[axm397]

Hey - just wanted to reiterate. my last post was not meant to spread rumors, but to actually dispell them. I said I heard rumors on the interview trails too, but that I would not rely on them to make decisions.

There really are rumors about DO friendly and unfriendly, FMG friendly and unfriendly, and female friendly and unfriendly programs out there. It's actually pretty rampant. Many times, when applicants get together and talk, they find that they can confirm or balance their observations of a program. Some rumors are probably secondary to individual experiences and others may just be plain false.

It was pointed out to me that some of the programs I had heard were DO unfriendly actually have a good number of DOs in their residency programs. SO - those rumors may be false. I think I'll just stop mentioning specific programs when it comes to negative things like that.

The residency selection process is very subjective and individual. You should go whereever you feel comfortable regardless of rumors about programs being malignant, etc. It's your comfort level and you should go and see for yourself.

I've actually prided myself in trying to stay neutral and positive about programs. I hope that not too many people have found my reviews and comments offensive. That really was not my intention.

 

[doctim]

Originally posted by joseppi
on the line of IM subspecialties... next I was want to do a sub-i in IM and can't decide which would be better either chest critical care or rheumatology or maybe endocrine. Any opinions? They all seem to have different aspect that I like in each of them, but obviously I can't do all of them. I only have one month for this rotation.

thanks...

critical care will help you the most with your internship.
rheum will help you in the future with PM&R.
endocrine would be a waste of time.