Post-bacc, Carribbean Med School, or PA?

[JUDolphin87]

Hello,
My goal is to go MD/DO eventually and I'm thinking of specializing as infectious diseases or pulmonology (or maybe a combination of both), but I don't believe I have the specs to make in at a traditional MD or DO program right now. I've been denied to a few med schools (FSU and Creighton), as well as a few post baccs (USF, Nova Southeastern). I majored in Biology and graduated with a 3.2 from a private school with a 19 (old) and 489 (new) MCAT score. I played 4 years of football, interned at Mayo Clinic, leadership in many organizations, 100+ volunteer hours. In my year off from school, I have been working as a medical scribe in the ER, waiting tables, and working on a manuscript for publication in a medical journal. I applied to a boat load of post baccs thinking that would be the best route for me, but after discussing it with several ER docs they are worried about the amount of debt I have and will accrue going post bacc. So, I'm considering applying to the big 4 and possibly even PA school. I've already been accepted to Mississippi College, Kansas City University, Liberty University, and Case Western Reserve. I'm still waiting to hear from Tufts, Wake Forest, Mount Sinai, Touro College NY, Mercer, LECOM, and PCOM. They all cost 20k+ (CWRU is 48k) and I'm worried that even if I get accepted to med school after attending that I won't be able to pay for it through loans (maxed out). HELPPPPPPP.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[etp123]

My concern is you've demonstrated you really want to be a physician; however, you haven't been able to prove to adcoms you have the academic skills necessary. It's difficult for them to invest in giving you a seat when your stats raise questions about your future success. How can they be sure you'll be able to keep up with the course material or pass your licensing exams? How can you yourself be sure you're prepped to survive med school if you matriculate next year?

The Caribbean route is arguably even MORE competitive: less than half who apply are matched to a residency, and way more than that drop out because they were never prepared for the rigor in the first place, etc. While it is an option, it's very risky. Paying for a postbac is a concern, but that pales in comparison to paying for med school when you're not ready and then flunking out. Then all that money and effort goes down the drain and you probably won't get another chance. I agree that the best route for you is a postbac and retaking the MCAT at 510+. I think then you might see more favorable responses.

You might not need to do a formal postbac program costing $20k+ either depending on what kind of postbac you're looking at. Perhaps you can do a DIY postbac and take classes at a nearby university to retake any you got a C or below in, or take more classes to help boost your GPA little by little. That's certainly a much cheaper option and increases your GPA for DO apps. But doing that has its drawbacks too since it's unstructured, no linkages, etc. You could also maybe take a few years off to work and build up your finances. Med school will still be around.

 

[JUDolphin87]

Hello,
My goal is to go MD/DO eventually and I'm thinking of specializing as infectious diseases or pulmonology (or maybe a combination of both), but I don't believe I have the specs to make in at a traditional MD or DO program right now. I've been denied to a few med schools (FSU and Creighton), as well as a few post baccs (USF, Nova Southeastern). I majored in Biology and graduated with a 3.2 from a private school with a 19 (old) and 489 (new) MCAT score. In my year off from school, I have been working as a medical scribe in the ER, waiting tables, and working on a manuscript for publication in a medical journal. I applied to a boat load of post baccs thinking that would be the best route for me, but after discussing it with several ER docs they are worried about the amount of debt I have and will accrue going post bacc. So, I'm considering applying to the big 4 and possibly even PA school. I've already been accepted to Mississippi College, Kansas City University, Liberty University, and Case Western Reserve. I'm still waiting to hear from Tufts, Wake Forest, Mount Sinai, Touro College NY, Mercer, LECOM, and PCOM. They all cost 20k+ (CWRU is 48k) and I'm worried that even if I get accepted to med school after attending that I won't be able to pay for it through loans (maxed out). HELPPPPPPP.

My concern is you've demonstrated you really want to be a physician; however, you haven't been able to prove to adcoms you have the academic skills necessary. It's difficult for them to invest in giving you a seat when your stats raise questions about your future success. How can they be sure you'll be able to keep up with the course material or pass your licensing exams? How can you yourself be sure you're prepped to survive med school if you matriculate next year?

The Caribbean route is arguably even MORE competitive: less than half who apply are matched to a residency, and way more than that drop out because they were never prepared for the rigor in the first place, etc. While it is an option, it's very risky. Paying for a postbac is a concern, but that pales in comparison to paying for med school when you're not ready and then flunking out. Then all that money and effort goes down the drain and you probably won't get another chance. I agree that the best route for you is a postbac and retaking the MCAT at 510+. I think then you might see more favorable responses.

You might not need to do a formal postbac program costing $20k+ either depending on what kind of postbac you're looking at. Perhaps you can do a DIY postbac and take classes at a nearby university to retake any you got a C or below in, or take more classes to help boost your GPA little by little. That's certainly a much cheaper option and increases your GPA for DO apps. But doing that has its drawbacks too since it's unstructured, no linkages, etc. You could also maybe take a few years off to work and build up your finances. Med school will still be around.

Thanks for the response! I appreciate the advice. What I left out is that I had 2 knee surgeries from playing football and worked 2 jobs throughout the majority of college to support myself. When I was healthy and no longer playing football, I received above a 3.5 GPA (while taking upper level science courses, ORGO 2 included). I've already done a Kaplan prep course which brought my MCAT score up from a 483 (on their exam) to the 489. Any advice on how to improve that score? I've been thinking about taking courses at the local community college to knock out the pre-reqs for PA school I still need (A&P 1/2, microbio, stats), while improving my GPA for med school. I scored 300 on the GRE so I don't think it'd be a huge stretch to get into PA school if med school doesn't work out. The only problem with that is finding time to work and study for the MCAT. I'm 24 and obviously support myself (I work 2 jobs 48+ hrs/week). What do you think?

 

[etp123]

Having an upward trend is great and makes your situation better GPA-wise, but it would behoove you to continue improving it where you can. Regarding community college, that's something you'll need to look up for schools you're interested in applying to. Don't know about PA schools but most MD schools do not accept or really would rather not accept online or community college credits, but a greater proportion of DO schools do. I haven't taken the MCAT yet so can't really give you tips from my POV but there's a MCAT specific forum where you'll find plenty of resources and advice from people who did do well. One thing I have seen repeated over and over again is practice tests, practice tests, practice tests.

I'm working full time and going back to school full time myself. What I've done is set a schedule and adhere to it as strictly as I can. Even when you're exhausted after coming home from a 10-12 hour workday, it might be hard but discipline yourself to use up those 2 hours before bed going over another section in your practice books. Your future self will be thankful your past self didn't slack and let the material accumulate. Of course, do take an off day or reserve an hour to just unwind too, so you don't burn out. Try different things and see how it goes, and if one thing doesn't work then try something else next week.

 

[Apollo1]

I played 4 years of football

1. Your cGPA is somewhat understandable considering you played a collegiate sport. What is your sGPA? We'd need this info (as context) to compare against your cGPA.

I majored in Biology and graduated with a 3.2 from a private school with a 19 (old) and 489 (new) MCAT score.

2. Your MCAT scores say that you can't retain information, as your initial score was severely deficient and you decreased in score from Test 1 (19) to Test 2 (489 = 17/18, per the below).

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...centile-comparison-conversion-tables.1143689/

I've already done a Kaplan prep course which brought my MCAT score up from a 483 (on their exam) to the 489.

3. This isn't a good sign, but it can be fixed.

I scored 300 on the GRE so I don't think it'd be a huge stretch to get into PA school if med school doesn't work out.

4. Don't make the assumption that PA school will be much easier to get into. There are plenty of applicants with higher GPAs and GRE scores. You'll also need HCE hours, of which your scribing does not count.

My goal is to go MD/DO eventually

5. You've identified this as your endgame. There's no reason to go PA if you want to eventually become a physician.

 

[Okazaki Frag Grenade]

OP, not trying to be harsh here I promise, but is it really wise to drop 2o-5ok at minimum on a post-bacc before figuring out what the issues are with your MCAT? A 3.2 as an athlete, while not outstanding compared to the 3.9's of the world, still indicates that you are intelligent. The catch seems to be standardized testing. I would just hate to see you spend all that money, only to do poorly on a 3rd MCAT, which may end up being your last chance (adcoms may be turned off by someone who has 3 low MCAT scores, even if the 4th improves).

 

[JUDolphin87]

OP, not trying to be harsh here I promise, but is it really wise to drop 2o-5ok at minimum on a post-bacc before figuring out what the issues are with your MCAT? A 3.2 as an athlete, while not outstanding compared to the 3.9's of the world, still indicates that you are intelligent. The catch seems to be standardized testing. I would just hate to see you spend all that money, only to do poorly on a 3rd MCAT, which may end up being your last chance (adcoms may be turned off by someone who has 3 low MCAT scores, even if the 4th improves).

1. My science GPA is a 3.1 if calculated correctly and including grade foregiveness.
2. Yes, the percentile is lower, but that's the reason they changed the MCAT to the new format is because the old test was getting too "easy" and the scores weren't reflecting the correct percentiles. If you're familiar with the bell curve models of standardized tests, you'll know that they often shift over time to the right (which requires changing the test).
3. I didn't even study for my GRE and that's what I got (I just took it to have a score). The GRE is just more straight forward for me and I believe I might be able to do much better with some minor prep. I scored very poorly in the Physics/Chem and Bio/Biochem section of the MCAT at 120 and 121, respectively, which seems to be bringing me down. I've tried studying that area, but I hate chemistry and haven't taken Biochem.
4. In Florida, an ED medical scribe counts as direct patient care. I should have about 700+ hours by the end of the summer.
5. Yes, I want to be a physician, but I'm worried that I'm never going to score high enough on my MCAT to get into a traditional med school and I've heard horrors about the carribbean. Right now, I'm struggling to work so many hours a week to get by. I don't want to do this for the rest of my life and there's no way I can study like this (at least not the way I need to).

 

[Apollo1]

UF is the only school out of the ones I perused that made any mention of scribing, and from what I recall in checking them out periodically this must be a recent change. If you decide to go through with it, be prepared for the real possibility that the other schools in Florida won't accept it.

I agree with Okazaki that you should address any test-taking issues, if present. Also, continue to prep until your practice scores are at least at the average for matriculating students at whatever schools you're interested in.

 

[JUDolphin87]

UF is the only school out of the ones I perused that made any mention of scribing, and from what I recall in checking them out periodically this must be a recent change. If you decide to go through with it, be prepared for the real possibility that the other schools in Florida won't accept it.

I agree with Okazaki that you should address any test-taking issues, if present. Also, continue to prep until your practice scores are at least at the average for matriculating students at whatever schools you're interested in.

Actually, many of the accredited PA schools in FL don't even require formal patient care hours (obviously it is strongly recommended). My new plan is to email those schools that don't mention required hours and talk about my scribe experience to see what they think. At this point, it seems possible to take a few credits at a community college, ace the PA pre-reqs I still need, and improve my GRE a few points. It seems out of reach for me to improve my GPA from 3.2 to 3.5 and MCAT from 489 to 500+ or so, in a year.

 

[Okazaki Frag Grenade]

1. My science GPA is a 3.1 if calculated correctly and including grade foregiveness.
2. Yes, the percentile is lower, but that's the reason they changed the MCAT to the new format is because the old test was getting too "easy" and the scores weren't reflecting the correct percentiles. If you're familiar with the bell curve models of standardized tests, you'll know that they often shift over time to the right (which requires changing the test).
3. I didn't even study for my GRE and that's what I got (I just took it to have a score). The GRE is just more straight forward for me and I believe I might be able to do much better with some minor prep. I scored very poorly in the Physics/Chem and Bio/Biochem section of the MCAT at 120 and 121, respectively, which seems to be bringing me down. I've tried studying that area, but I hate chemistry and haven't taken Biochem.
4. In Florida, an ED medical scribe counts as direct patient care. I should have about 700+ hours by the end of the summer.
5. Yes, I want to be a physician, but I'm worried that I'm never going to score high enough on my MCAT to get into a traditional med school and I've heard horrors about the carribbean. Right now, I'm struggling to work so many hours a week to get by. I don't want to do this for the rest of my life and there's no way I can study like this (at least not the way I need to).

I'm gonna preface again that I'm really not trying to be harsh I do want to help here. In my opinion, several of your comments here indicate to me that you are either still learning what it takes to get into these type of med/PA programs, or that you just haven't done the right kind of planning.

At this point, your MCAT scores will get you screened out of all US programs (either MD/DO). I DO NOT recommend Caribbean at all. Those horror stories you've heard are accurate. They end up failing out about half of every incoming class, leaving students with tons of debt and no options.

And yes I'm aware of how standardized tests and bell curves function. They didn't change the MCAT because it got "too easy." It was altered to include different material that AAMC thought would better predict the skills that physicians will need. Percentile scores are based on how you do compared to all the other test takers, though, so even if this new test was harder, you still landed around the same percentile as the first one relative to all the other applicants.

Why would you take the GRE just to have a score? Based on the score you got (I know you said you didn't study), UF's PA program would auto screen you out. And won't you have to report that first GRE score when you apply?

And if you hate chemistry, why are you pursuing a career in medicine? It is heavily influenced by chemistry and biochemistry and organic.

 

[JUDolphin87]

I'm gonna preface again that I'm really not trying to be harsh I do want to help here. In my opinion, several of your comments here indicate to me that you are either still learning what it takes to get into these type of med/PA programs, or that you just haven't done the right kind of planning.

At this point, your MCAT scores will get you screened out of all US programs (either MD/DO). I DO NOT recommend Caribbean at all. Those horror stories you've heard are accurate. They end up failing out about half of every incoming class, leaving students with tons of debt and no options.

And yes I'm aware of how standardized tests and bell curves function. They didn't change the MCAT because it got "too easy." It was altered to include different material that AAMC thought would better predict the skills that physicians will need. Percentile scores are based on how you do compared to all the other test takers, though, so even if this new test was harder, you still landed around the same percentile as the first one relative to all the other applicants.

Why would you take the GRE just to have a score? Based on the score you got (I know you said you didn't study), UF's PA program would auto screen you out. And won't you have to report that first GRE score when you apply?

And if you hate chemistry, why are you pursuing a career in medicine? It is heavily influenced by chemistry and biochemistry and organic.

Don't worry about being harsh! Everyone needs constructive criticism, it all helps. You are 100% accurate when you say I did not plan properly haha. You are also correct about them wanting to add to the required test material, but they did change the scoring system, because they weren't getting accurate scores. That's what I meant. I.E. some one who scored 19 on the old MCAT, now scoring 489 (19th and 18th percentiles, respectively). Why not take the GRE to have a score? It seemed like a decent back-up plan and I was right- my GRE scores were able to get me into some really good post baccs so far. Also, UF PA school does not have a required GRE score (I don't believe), I'm pretty sure their webiste states that scores in the 50th percentile or better, are competitive. I scored in exactly the 50th percentile, so I would doubt I would get screened out. I've talked to many docs and my professors, and it doesn't really matter how many times you take standardized tests- as long as it's not like 7 times in one year and you see some improvement each time. I probably wouldn't make it to the interview stage, but that's beside the point right now. I don't even have all the pre-reqs just yet.

There are many people that hate chemistry and work in medicine. There are plenty of people that hate physics and work in medicine. There are plenty of people that hate biology and work in medicine...you get the point. Yes, it's heavily influenced by chemistry, but you do not need to understand atoms and protons to a T to diagnose and treat patients. I love microbiology and using logic to solve patient cases. Plus, no doctor is doing any of the lab work themselves lol. It all gets uploaded to a computer for them to interpret.

 

[Goro]

Then PA is the way to go.

Don't even think about Carib diploma mills unless you're happy with the idea of being unemployed and deeply in debt.


5. Yes, I want to be a physician, but I'm worried that I'm never going to score high enough on my MCAT to get into a traditional med school and I've heard horrors about the carribbean. Right now, I'm struggling to work so many hours a week to get by. I don't want to do this for the rest of my life and there's no way I can study like this (at least not the way I need to).[/QUOTE]

 

[xffan624]

Don't worry about being harsh! Everyone needs constructive criticism, it all helps. You are 100% accurate when you say I did not plan properly haha. You are also correct about them wanting to add to the required test material, but they did change the scoring system, because they weren't getting accurate scores. That's what I meant. I.E. some one who scored 19 on the old MCAT, now scoring 489 (19th and 18th percentiles, respectively). Why not take the GRE to have a score? It seemed like a decent back-up plan and I was right- my GRE scores were able to get me into some really good post baccs so far. Also, UF PA school does not have a required GRE score (I don't believe), I'm pretty sure their webiste states that scores in the 50th percentile or better, are competitive. I scored in exactly the 50th percentile, so I would doubt I would get screened out. I've talked to many docs and my professors, and it doesn't really matter how many times you take standardized tests- as long as it's not like 7 times in one year and you see some improvement each time. I probably wouldn't make it to the interview stage, but that's beside the point right now. I don't even have all the pre-reqs just yet.

There are many people that hate chemistry and work in medicine. There are plenty of people that hate physics and work in medicine. There are plenty of people that hate biology and work in medicine...you get the point. Yes, it's heavily influenced by chemistry, but you do not need to understand atoms and protons to a T to diagnose and treat patients. I love microbiology and using logic to solve patient cases. Plus, no doctor is doing any of the lab work themselves lol. It all gets uploaded to a computer for them to interpret.

Ok, I will be harsh. This is not accurate. Your two poor MCATs will stick with you the whole time and could be averaged into any decent score you do produce. There's a lot of debate of taking the MCAT multiple times and the effect on your application, but I can tell you that two poor efforts in a row will definitely raise some eyebrows even if you are able to produce a competitive score.

Also note, standardized tests in medical school are kinda a big effing deal and if you take them without the proper preparation, you either get a non-competitive score without the option to retake it (best option) or fail it and have a permanent red mark on your record.

Right now, I see an application that is pretty much a non-starter at this point and applicant who seems to have a blase attitude about the whole process.

 

[timephone]

• I'd rule Caribbean med schools out of the question right now. Although anecdotally I've heard a handful of good things about them, all my research has helped me decide to avoid them like the plague. I can't sanely justify risking $250k+, a significant fraction of the entire income I will earn in my life (probably 10-20% of my total lifetime income if I fail to become a physician), on that degree becoming useless should I miss out on residency. Yes, even at a US med school you risk not matching at the end, but at least with an MD/DO from a mainland school you are on a nearly equal playing field competing for spots.
• Post-bacc programs are there for you to complete pre-reqs and raise your GPA. Your MCAT scores are a huge (YUGE) red flag. As others have said, standardized tests form the basis by which your med school performance is judged. Unless you get a ridiculous (unrealistically high) score on your next attempt, your chance at MD/DO school is slim. Really your GPA isn't so bad, but unfortunately it's easier to recover from low/mediocre GPAs than it is from a bad MCAT score.
• PA school is a good option! You have great life experiences and luckily you don't need an MCAT score for PA school. A good way to up your patient care hours is to get a CNA license. Here in FL (I assume you reside in FL) there are tons of entry-level jobs as a CNA that give you exactly the kind of experience PA schools like to see. Keep in mind that the average matriculant in PA programs has approx. 2000 hours of patient care experience, i.e. 1 year of full-time work.
• For either raising your GPA or getting some extra PA school pre-reqs, consider a DIY post-bacc. Financially there's no way I could afford a structured 1 year post-bacc, so I'm working full-time, studying part-time, and saving up cash for some full-time semesters next year. As repeated ad nauseum on this forum, "it's a marathon, not a sprint". Make sure you're financially, physically, and mentally healthy. Consider every aspect of your decisions with regard to medicine very carefully.

 

[occams_razor]

At this point, your MCAT scores will get you screened out of all US programs (either MD/DO).

This isn't always true as there are some DO schools that will accept scores in this range. She got into a DO school (WVSOM, which has an avg MCAT of 25) after taking the MCAT 3 times, with a high score of 19. I would definitely advise the OP to work hard to improve and retake the MCAT because it's rare to get admitted with such a low score, but it's still technically possible.

 

[Citron]

This isn't always true as there are some DO schools that will accept scores in this range. She got into a DO school (WVSOM, which has an avg MCAT of 25) after taking the MCAT 3 times, with a high score of 19. I would definitely advise the OP to work hard to improve and retake the MCAT because it's rare to get admitted with such a low score, but it's still technically possible.

She mentioned she had 3.8 GPA and was an athlete. Usually, when an applicant is a splitter (High GPA low MCAT or low GPA high MCAT), schools may give a chance.

Let's just be realistic and look at the data:
https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstablea23.pdf

 

[Citron]

3.I scored very poorly in the Physics/Chem and Bio/Biochem section of the MCAT at 120 and 121, respectively, which seems to be bringing me down. I've tried studying that area, but I hate chemistry and haven't taken Biochem.

OP, 25% of the Bio section of the new MCAT is Biochemistry. Have you ever thought that your score was low because you didn't take Biochem hence not prepared well enough? Also, a lot of med schools nowadays list Biochem as a pre-req, you may as well take it.

 

[gyngyn]

We have never interviewed someone with two MCAT scores that low.

 

[futuremdforme]

PA.

Based on your stats, a US MD/DO is not in the cards for you, and with your MCAT, there's realistically no hope of getting a step 1 that will bring you back for US residency. Even the 3.5 that you maintained while healthy is not exceptional - it's below average for US MD, and certainly below what you would need to prove that everything else is not representative of your abilities.

 

[tnedoots]

The MCAT is just the first in a long line of standardized tests you'll have to take. Whether or not it's the best system, the system relies on standardized tests to pump you through the pipeline to physician-hood.
The MCAT, in hindsight, was not that bad of a test. Your concern is not just getting into med school in spite of your MCAT. Your concern is can you do well enough on the tests that follow the MCAT?
Step 1 is probably the most important test you'll take. You get one shot (unless you fail) to get a score that will have a big impact on which specialty you match into and in which location.
Just don't forget that the MCAT isn't the only standardized test out there.

Good Luck!

 

[DrMikeP]

Not sure if you mentioned it, but what section(s) of the MCAT did you have problems with? If flat across the board then PA may BE best route as you'll likely struggle with boards and there is a bigger issue. If low in one or likely 2 sections that could mean a learning issue. CARS is heavily IQ oriented.

You need to figure out/fix what is causing your struggle or you'll repeat it. Perhaps speaking with a Psychologist who can analyze such may help. Maybe find one familiar with med school challenges.

Best of luck

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Stagg737]

This isn't always true as there are some DO schools that will accept scores in this range. She got into a DO school (WVSOM, which has an avg MCAT of 25) after taking the MCAT 3 times, with a high score of 19. I would definitely advise the OP to work hard to improve and retake the MCAT because it's rare to get admitted with such a low score, but it's still technically possible.

Not trying to be a jerk, as she should be proud she got in, but she was accepted to one of the worst MD or DO schools in the country (stat-wise) with a solid GPA and at least decent ECs, was likely in-state, and apparently had a very good explanation as to why her scores were so low. Being realistic, I would definitely not use this as an example for anyone.

To OP, it's already been said, but do NOT apply to med schools again with those MCAT scores. The GPA is forgivable at many DO schools, but the test scores are the killer.

 

[DrMikeP]

There are always exceptions to the rule and if we ask 100 people if they are in the upper or lower half of the group they will in vast majority say upper. In reality the chances of being an exception are well over 3 standard deviations. 60% of applicants think they will somehow get in and don't. I've heard tons of compelling life stories and in vast majority of the stories even though great they don't mean xyz who lacks the scores would make it through med school. Ultimately the adcoms job is to pick the best candidate who will fit the schools mission AND reach practice level. In that they love comeback, reinvention, overcoming, etc stories but out of 10000 applications 1000 will be such and of those many will have the stats to prove they should be there. So if you want to be a doctor aim for the top of the 40% and not the exception or you are setting yourself up for failure.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk