Potential COCA Accreditation Violation and Reporting

[Whysoez]

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I guess this thread has run its course. Mod please move it to Pre-Law forum

 

[alprazoslam]

This is not a "troll" post.

My hope was to seek advice about the process of reporting and to see if others have previously filed a compliant using the COCA reporting process. Retaliation is a very real and prominent threat as many have pointed out. I appreciate the thoughts and advice members have provided. It is (sadly) comforting to know that my classmates and I are not alone in having to deal with (what I feel are) non-compliant rotations.

In addition, this post should not be a witch hunt. I understand the want for a "name drop", but no further information will be shared. Doing so is not in the interest me and/or others should a compliant be filed and returned without finding. Any reporting will be conducted using the proper process.

All lawyeresk eh

 

[12jas]

Yeah, let's just wait until hundreds of other students are affected first and make posts like these to enable these kinds of problems and their persistence.

The least OP can do now is drop the name so DO applicants like myself can avoid the school.

Yeah all the Pre-Meds coming on to tell you what to do when they have no skin in the game. Don't go to a new school if you are so concerned. OP has taken a stance and made the CORRECT choice to not name his school and don't bullsh** anyone the anonymity provided by SDN is minimal at best. "we do reserve the right to disclose personal information when we believe that doing so is reasonably necessary"-straight from their privacy policy. I have figured out classmates identity by post history multiple times. Our school gave the entire class a mandatory "professionalism" lecture after someone posted something on SDN where they flat out told us to stop posting online. This is obviously not a troll post. Calling it such is just you whining because you didn't get what you want. To those considering newer schools let this be a red flag. It isn't first or second year education you need to be concerned about its third year and this is coming from someone who attends a new school.

 

[alprazoslam]

Yeah all the Pre-Meds coming on to tell you what to do when they have no skin in the game. Don't go to a new school if you are so concerned. OP has taken a stance and made the CORRECT choice to not name his school and don't bullsh** anyone the anonymity provided by SDN is minimal at best. "we do reserve the right to disclose personal information when we believe that doing so is reasonably necessary"-straight from their privacy policy. I have figured out classmates identity by post history multiple times. Our school gave the entire class a mandatory "professionalism" lecture after someone posted something on SDN where they flat out told us to stop posting online. This is obviously not a troll post. Calling it such is just you whining because you didn't get what you want. To those considering newer schools let this be a red flag. It isn't first or second year education you need to be concerned about its third year and this is coming from someone who attends a new school.

Of course your school told you not to post online they don’t want people to know they might not be great. Sdn is anonymous the disclaimer is if they subpoena via court. And smart people keep their posts ambiguous and slightly alter personal information to keep themselves hidden.

lol at you buying into your schools “don’t post on SDN” stuff.they just don’t want the word spread they probably suck. They can never prove it’s you and if they give you flack without proof that’s lawsuit material. Just keep it anonymous using common sense.

 

[12jas]

lol at you buying into your schools “don’t post on SDN”

Never said I bought into it and a lawsuit is death to your application quit pretending like you will just be able to sue your school and everything is magically fixed. This is an extremely naive perspective. Do you think lawsuits get resolved quickly? Do you think its easy to sue a multimillion dollar entity with full time legal team on staff as a medical student with nothing but debt to their name? Also the administrators may be crooks but most of them are not stupid. There are many ways they can retaliate that they could never be held accountable for.

 

[alprazoslam]

It’s not easy but schools are very careful at ways they retaliate against students and have to be very careful when it comes to kicking out students also. It is not a naive perspective. They have to have a proper paper trail and communicate all of it to the student in order to kick them out. They can’t just make stuff up otherwise yes they can be sued. Ask @Goro

Usually students get kicked out for good reason and have multiple infarcts. Unless you are slandering the school or a specific person (xyz tried to stick their finger in my butt) you are fine. attorneys eat up college kick outs since in the rare case the school improperly removes a student the payout can be huge due to the monetary effect on the student. If anything they should be more apt to remove students than they are now lol

 

[12jas]

schools are very careful at ways they retaliate against students

My point exactly the school wouldn't kick you out but they sure as hell aren't going to bend over backwards to help your residency app. OP is a DO student at a new school doesn't take much for their app to get tossed in the trash. If a lawsuit of any kind no matter how justified came to the attention of a residency program your app is toast.

 

[hallowmann]

"The complaint must be in writing and signed by the complainant. All signed complaints must be submitted to the Secretary, COCA; American Osteopathic Association; 142 E. Ontario St.; Chicago, IL 60611 or via email to [email protected]. Complaints that are received that are not signed by the complainant(s) or are submitted anonymously will not be processed."
Source: https://osteopathic.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/complaint-review-procedures.pdf



A larger number of my class with complete third year without EVER rotating with a GME program, even for just a single rotation. I'd be content and consider the requirement satisfied if each student had at least ONE rotation with a residency program.


We have basically been told to use an elective or do an away fourth year if we want to work with residents.

I assume that you have an SGA. A group of you needs to talk to your class president and express your concerns, assuming you trust them. It's their job to insulate people who come to them with concerns and pass that up the chain.

Another option, as discussed is to get someone on your faculty to submit the complaint to COCA. Preferably someone you trust, who is willing to do it despite risk of being fired or severing ties with the school (maybe someone retiring soon).

If they aren't willing to do it, then you should just wait until after you graduate and submit a complaint to COCA. Keep in mind though that there may be instances where you will need to contact your school, like for verification of degree for licenses. You can do this indirectly through a service like FCVS, but it's always possible they could delay releasing stuff to boards. They probably won't, but its possible.

I agree with others that the risk as a 3rd yr med student are too great to be worth it. They can hurt you to a great degree, and despite the possibility of a lawsuit with retaliation, that would be an endeavor that could last years and cost a great deal of money.

...ACGME/LCME can, if they really wanted to, put down the hammer on AOA/COCA by telling them that by year 20xx, no graduates of COCA accredited schools will be eligible for residencies at ACGME programs. They can tell them that they must go through LCME accreditation standards to be eligible. This would overall be a good thing for medical education, because... let's be real - DO schools are trash when run by COCA standards. COCA doesn't even hold them accountable by the standards that are so bad to begin with.

That's what his post meant. He did not say that LCME controls DO schools.

The bolded will never happen. For one it would eliminate all foreign grads, and without them most programs won't fill. Secondly, there is legal precedent preventing this (again for foreign grads). Third, DO and foreign graduate medical associations and entities make up a near majority or even majority voting block on the ACGME council, so such a proposal would never be passed.

 

[sab3156]

The bolded will never happen. For one it would eliminate all foreign grads, and without them most programs won't fill. Secondly, there is legal precedent preventing this (again for foreign grads). Third, DO and foreign graduate medical associations and entities make up a near majority or even majority voting block on the ACGME council, so such a proposal would never be passed.

Well, of course. It is unlikely (don't really like the word "never" here, as many of us would have been saying the same thing many years ago if asked about whether ACGME would be able to aggressively take over AOA residencies).

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Well, of course. It is unlikely (don't really like the word "never" here, as many of us would have been saying the same thing many years ago if asked about whether ACGME would be able to aggressively take over AOA residencies).

They didn't take over the AOA, they merged. The AOA still exists as almost 1/3 of the voting power on the ACGME board.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile

 

[Neopolymath]

They didn't take over the AOA, they merged. The AOA still exists as 1/3 of the voting power on the ACGME board.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile

Think what you want lol

 

[Spectreman]

My core site doesn’t have residents and it’s been great. Love working with attendings all day.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Think what you want lol

Member Organizations

www.acgme.org

 

[Neopolymath]

Member Organizations

www.acgme.org

Empty public optics until proven otherwise.

 

[hallowmann]

Well, of course. It is unlikely (don't really like the word "never" here, as many of us would have been saying the same thing many years ago if asked about whether ACGME would be able to aggressively take over AOA residencies).

Fair enough on the never statement. Although a lot of people saw the writing on the wall for the merger, it (or something similar) has been talked about since about 2010.

A lot of AOA members were honestly pushing for it and many reached out to the ACGME first because of the potential benefits for the profession, but if anything the staunch opposition/refusal from the old guard is what ultimately forced the ACGME to play their hand.

The issue was that pretty much since the 1960s and the loss of half of the DO training programs as well as the loss of what is now UC-I, DOs just haven't had enough GME to support their graduates. With aggressive expansion of DOs, even though many schools back then expanded GME as well, they could never keep up, and more and more DOs were going ACGME. If anything, they forced the ACGME to get involved. There's nothing really like that at the med school level to push the LCME to take over, unless DO schools suddenly start competing really hard with MDs for med school rotation sites, and the MDs start losing them, which is honestly something I don't see happening.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

The best solution to any problem is the one you formulate. Waiting for someone to ride in on a white horse to save you ends up in a long wait. Either put some heat on COCA or dont. Life is going to throw obstacles at you, and no one is going to remove them for you. Consider working with SGA at your school see if things cant be worked out through that channel. Someone will have to make a complaint to COCA if nothing is done. If nothing changes nothing will change.

 

[alprazoslam]

My point exactly the school wouldn't kick you out but they sure as hell aren't going to bend over backwards to help your residency app. OP is a DO student at a new school doesn't take much for their app to get tossed in the trash. If a lawsuit of any kind no matter how justified came to the attention of a residency program your app is toast.

They don’t really put anything on your deans letter unless you get sent to SPC. Mostly it’s just preceptor comments and grades and rank.

“student might have bashed school on sdn”

lol no