Pre-clinical grading system is NOT that important...

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So, I've been perusing the school-specific threads, and I have noticed over and over again people talking about choosing one school over another with grading schemes being one of the top reasons.

If you are choosing a school based on grading system, you are prioritizing wrong. This is for the first two years of medical school where everyone agrees that grades don't matter much anyway. Why in the world would you weigh that over factors like location, cost, curriculum, or clinical experience 3rd and 4th year? Heck, in the end, the prestige of your school is going to matter a lot more than what type of grading system you had in the pre-clinical years.

I get the appeal. The problem is that med school is stressful. It is a lot of work. Trying to minimize that stress with the grading system is the wrong way to go about it compared to other factors. Does it caused extra stress and make people competitive? I don't know for sure. I am convinced that the competitive people are that way based on personality or career interest as opposed to influenced by the grading system. Even at my school (where we have curved H/HP/P/F), people are friendly and they are collaborative. I have more study guides and notesets from people than I can possibly use to prepare for a test. I have found a group of people who are like-minded to myself, like you will at any school. At the P/F schools I went to, people complained that there were a few gunners! I am convinced that the students don't change much whereever you go. You will not hang out with everyone in your class, so it is easy to avoid people who stress you out. Do people work hard? Yes they do. But that doesn't make them a bunch of competitive jerks. It's medical school. You should all be working hard.

Again, pre-clinical grades don't matter much, so why are people so concerned about the grading system? People like P/F because you can focus on the boards instead of classes. Well, you can do the same thing at a non P/F school. I get that people don't want to add extra stress to their lives, but you are entering an intense, professional school: how you are graded for two years is the least stressful thing you will face.

If you are splitting hairs between two schools, I can see the grading system coming into play. But honestly, it should not be one of the major factors that you consider. There are so many more important things to focus on. And if you do run into some competitive gunners, just ignore them. I doubt it will be the only time it will happen in your medical career.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

So, I've been perusing the school-specific threads, and I have noticed over and over again people talking about choosing one school over another with grading schemes being one of the top reasons.

If you are choosing a school based on grading system, you are prioritizing wrong. This is for the first two years of medical school where everyone agrees that grades don't matter much anyway. Why in the world would you weigh that over factors like location, cost, curriculum, or clinical experience 3rd and 4th year? Heck, in the end, the prestige of your school is going to matter a lot more than what type of grading system you had in the pre-clinical years.

I get the appeal. The problem is that med school is stressful. It is a lot of work. Trying to minimize that stress with the grading system is the wrong way to go about it compared to other factors. Does it caused extra stress and make people competitive? I don't know for sure. I am convinced that the competitive people are that way based on personality or career interest as opposed to influenced by the grading system. Even at my school (where we have curved H/HP/P/F), people are friendly and they are collaborative. I have more study guides and notesets from people than I can possibly use to prepare for a test. I have found a group of people who are like-minded to myself, like you will at any school. At the P/F schools I went to, people complained that there were a few gunners! I am convinced that the students don't change much whereever you go. You will not hang out with everyone in your class, so it is easy to avoid people who stress you out. Do people work hard? Yes they do. But that doesn't make them a bunch of competitive jerks. It's medical school. You should all be working hard.

Again, pre-clinical grades don't matter much, so why are people so concerned about the grading system? People like P/F because you can focus on the boards instead of classes. Well, you can do the same thing at a non P/F school. I get that people don't want to add extra stress to their lives, but you are entering an intense, professional school: how you are graded for two years is the least stressful thing you will face.

If you are splitting hairs between two schools, I can see the grading system coming into play. But honestly, it should not be one of the major factors that you consider. There are so many more important things to focus on. And if you do run into some competitive gunners, just ignore them. I doubt it will be the only time it will happen in your medical career.

P/F is a great system and directly impacted my quality of life in preclinicals. Instead of worrying about memorizing some random factoid from a professor's bleeding-edge-research talk, I could choose to focus on what I believed to be the important points and not sweat the small stuff. It's not so much that the grade impacts your future but what the existence of grades does to your psychological state, and given my big shift in attitude (and subsequent decrease in QOL) in clinicals where we have grades I'd say this is not an insignificant thing.

You're right, by and large we all work hard in medical school, but I got to choose to work hard on things other than classwork - like ECs and research. And I had a great, enriching time I will never stop appreciating

 

[911 Turbo]

wtf? some resident posted in preallo a few months ago saying that a p/f system is a top quality to look for in a medical school.

so who is right?

 

[chillaxbro]

I think it has more to do with the learning environment
Less competition, more helpful peers, etc.
Otherwise it's like gunners in undergrad all over again except everyone is super smart

 

[Barcu]

P/F is a great system and directly impacted my quality of life in preclinicals. Instead of worrying about memorizing some random factoid from a professor's bleeding-edge-research talk, I could choose to focus on what I believed to be the important points and not sweat the small stuff. It's not so much that the grade impacts your future but what the existence of grades does to your psychological state, and given my big shift in attitude (and subsequent decrease in QOL) in clinicals where we have grades I'd say this is not an insignificant thing.

You're right, by and large we all work hard in medical school, but I got to choose to work hard on things other than classwork - like ECs and research. And I had a great, enriching time I will never stop appreciating

But you don't have to sweat the small stuff. You can just pass. I maybe just am wired differently. Having grades there doesn't stress me out. It keeps me motivated and focused, and if I don't get honors, I don't really lose sleep.

 

[Barcu]

wtf? some resident posted in preallo a few months ago saying that a p/f system is a top quality to look for in a medical school.

so who is right?

Probably just personal preference. I was just offering another perspective. Going to a school with a non-P/F system, I have to talk about this a lot, so I wanted the discussion in a more centralized location.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

But you don't have to sweat the small stuff. You can just pass. I maybe just am wired differently. Having grades there doesn't stress me out. It keeps me motivated and focused, and if I don't get honors, I don't really lose sleep.

As someone who likes to think of himself as a cool customer, I think it's still difficult not to get wrapped up in it

 

[Barcu]

I think it has more to do with the learning environment
Less competition, more helpful peers, etc.
Otherwise it's like gunners in undergrad all over again except everyone is super smart

I don't buy this. Again, you don't hang with everyone in your class, and there are tons of friendly, collaborative people. If there are gunners, do your best to avoid them. It isn't hard.

Later in med school, you are graded when it really matters, so why is it such a big deal for the first two years when it is easy to avoid gunners and the grades don't matter much?

My point isn't that a non-P/F school is better. My point is that on a list of potential factors for choosing a school, it shouldn't be a major determinant.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I don't buy this. Again, you don't hang with everyone in your class, and there are tons of friendly, collaborative people. If there are gunners, do your best to avoid them. It isn't hard.

Later in med school, you are graded when it really matters, so why is it such a big deal for the first two years when it is easy to avoid gunners and the grades don't matter much?

My point isn't that a non-P/F school is better. My point is that on a list of potential factors for choosing a school, it shouldn't be a major determinant.

One theory (of mine) would be that once you spend 2 years getting to know each other and becoming good friends as seems to happen in my school, it's harder to dick each other over. This isn't to say there aren't gunners, but I think it tamps it down more. I dunno it's clearly a preference thing IMO, but also IMO more people will prefer/do better in P/F

 

[Barcu]

One theory (of mine) would be that once you spend 2 years getting to know each other and becoming good friends as seems to happen in my school, it's harder to dick each other over. This isn't to say there aren't gunners, but I think it tamps it down more. I dunno it's clearly a preference thing IMO, but also IMO more people will prefer/do better in P/F

It's plausible. But it's not like people don't know each other at a non-P/F school either. Most people are fine, no matter the grading system they are in. It's not like there are a ton of gunners running around my school in the first two years. Nor do there appear to be that many in the 3rd and 4th year from what I have heard. Again, I don't think the grading system is the problem. It's more about the personality of the gunner.

I think most people would prefer to be in a P/F system. In fact, if my school decided to switch, I wouldn't be opposed. Whether people do better or not, I think that is impossible to prove. My point though is that if you should not be weighing grading system on the same level as debt, location, curriculum, clinical experience.

 

[penguinism]

But you don't have to sweat the small stuff. You can just pass. I maybe just am wired differently. Having grades there doesn't stress me out. It keeps me motivated and focused, and if I don't get honors, I don't really lose sleep.

You're wired differently than some of us. If I had the ability to get honors, I would probably push myself harder. It's extremely nice not to have to do so. I'm perfectly content with being average here.

 

[yehhhboiii]

p/f is nice but grading systems don't change personalities
gunners gonna gun

 

[survivordo]

P/F is fine if you are still able to push yourself and actually learn enough so that when you are preparing for boards it is not all new. I don't think it will affect you one way or the other when applying to residencies, plenty of people get into competitive programs every year with P/F grading systems.

Survivor DO

 

[Barcu]

You're wired differently than some of us. If I had the ability to get honors, I would probably push myself harder. It's extremely nice not to have to do so. I'm perfectly content with being average here.

I do use grades as motivation, and I do shoot for honors. But I know that if I don't get honors, things will turn out ok. So I can maintain a normal life and outside interests. I think it helps keep me on top of things, and our school does pretty well on boards because of it. I think for some people, the extra motivation by grades helps as opposed to being a source of stress.

 

[Mosonik]

Don't pure P/F programs have to use percentages for internal class rankings or does ranking not begin until 3rd year?

 

[Nymphicus]

Don't pure P/F programs have to use percentages for internal class rankings or does ranking not begin until 3rd year?

Some schools use the former, some the latter.

I believe that a majority of the "P/F" schools keep rankings throughout the preclinical courses anyway.

Unranked P/F is certainly a nice touch though.

 

[mcloaf]

Don't pure P/F programs have to use percentages for internal class rankings or does ranking not begin until 3rd year?

Unranked P/F ftw.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

So, I've been perusing the school-specific threads, and I have noticed over and over again people talking about choosing one school over another with grading schemes being one of the top reasons.

If you are choosing a school based on grading system, you are prioritizing wrong. This is for the first two years of medical school where everyone agrees that grades don't matter much anyway. Why in the world would you weigh that over factors like location, cost, curriculum, or clinical experience 3rd and 4th year? Heck, in the end, the prestige of your school is going to matter a lot more than what type of grading system you had in the pre-clinical years.

I get the appeal. The problem is that med school is stressful. It is a lot of work. Trying to minimize that stress with the grading system is the wrong way to go about it compared to other factors. Does it caused extra stress and make people competitive? I don't know for sure. I am convinced that the competitive people are that way based on personality or career interest as opposed to influenced by the grading system. Even at my school (where we have curved H/HP/P/F), people are friendly and they are collaborative. I have more study guides and notesets from people than I can possibly use to prepare for a test. I have found a group of people who are like-minded to myself, like you will at any school. At the P/F schools I went to, people complained that there were a few gunners! I am convinced that the students don't change much whereever you go. You will not hang out with everyone in your class, so it is easy to avoid people who stress you out. Do people work hard? Yes they do. But that doesn't make them a bunch of competitive jerks. It's medical school. You should all be working hard.

Again, pre-clinical grades don't matter much, so why are people so concerned about the grading system? People like P/F because you can focus on the boards instead of classes. Well, you can do the same thing at a non P/F school. I get that people don't want to add extra stress to their lives, but you are entering an intense, professional school: how you are graded for two years is the least stressful thing you will face.

If you are splitting hairs between two schools, I can see the grading system coming into play. But honestly, it should not be one of the major factors that you consider. There are so many more important things to focus on. And if you do run into some competitive gunners, just ignore them. I doubt it will be the only time it will happen in your medical career.

+infinity

People who want to get the highest grades will do that regardless of the grading system. Every P/F school will have its "gunners" just like every non-P/F school does. IMHO, there are a lot more factors to prioritize over grading system when it comes to deciding what med school you're going to attend.

 

[FSU2013]

Unranked P/F ftw.

I'm led to believe that almost all 'P/F' is a fallacy. Students are ranked. Period. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you get an 'A' or ranked in the top 10% on the 'P/F' scheme. It's all window dressing.

At the end of the day, residencies don't really use pre-clinical grades for much of anything. They don't care if you get a 'C' in path so long as you honor your 3rd year clerkships. The only important thing that preclinical years are good for (in a PDs eyes) are establishing class rank, which is still done in the P/F system, it's just a lot more smoke and mirrors.

I go to a school that was A/B/C when I started and became P/F during my tenure (although only affected the students in the years after me). I don't think it changed much.

Go somewhere you can afford, like the city and doesn't have required classes.

 

[Mosonik]

I'm led to believe that almost all 'P/F' is a fallacy. Students are ranked. Period. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you get an 'A' or ranked in the top 10% on the 'P/F' scheme. It's all window dressing.

At the end of the day, residencies don't really use pre-clinical grades for much of anything. They don't care if you get a 'C' in path so long as you honor your 3rd year clerkships. The only important thing that preclinical years are good for (in a PDs eyes) are establishing class rank, which is still done in the P/F system, it's just a lot more smoke and mirrors.

I go to a school that was A/B/C when I started and became P/F during my tenure (although only affected the students in the years after me). I don't think it changed much.

Go somewhere you can afford, like the city and doesn't have required classes.

This was what I was suspecting. It's just indirect ways of getting to the same conclusion

 

[mcloaf]

I'm led to believe that almost all 'P/F' is a fallacy. Students are ranked. Period. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you get an 'A' or ranked in the top 10% on the 'P/F' scheme. It's all window dressing.

At the end of the day, residencies don't really use pre-clinical grades for much of anything. They don't care if you get a 'C' in path so long as you honor your 3rd year clerkships. The only important thing that preclinical years are good for (in a PDs eyes) are establishing class rank, which is still done in the P/F system, it's just a lot more smoke and mirrors.

I go to a school that was A/B/C when I started and became P/F during my tenure (although only affected the students in the years after me). I don't think it changed much.

Go somewhere you can afford, like the city and doesn't have required classes.

Fair enough. There are a few true, unranked P/F schools that assign AOA based on 3rd year grades (and maybe Step 1), but I agree they are in the minority of schools that call themselves P/F. Otherwise totally agree.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Fair enough. There are a few true, unranked P/F schools that assign AOA based on 3rd year grades (and maybe Step 1), but I agree they are in the minority of schools that call themselves P/F. Otherwise totally agree.

When I interviewed at schools none of the P/F schools were secretly tracking/ranking preclinical grades. If anything I'd say such schools are in the minority

 

[GrabSlamBoot]

When I interviewed at schools none of the P/F schools were secretly tracking/ranking preclinical grades. If anything I'd say such schools are in the minority

Yeah all P/F schools I came across were not internally ranked...

 

[Goobs]

yeah all p/f schools i came across were not internally ranked...

+1

 

[sliceofbread136]

Honestly if a school has AOA I don't consider it true pass/fail. Not a single school I interviewed at lacked AOA so I didn't take grading systems into account at all.

 

[Goobs]

Honestly if a school has AOA I don't consider it true pass/fail. Not a single school I interviewed at lacked AOA so I didn't take grading systems into account at all.

Someone mentioned that there are some schools where AOA isn't based on pre-clinical years. I don't know enough about AOA stuff at all the medical schools to say anything for sure, but if this were the case and I was to pick between two schools then this would make me consider the grading scheme.

 

[tantacles]

But you don't have to sweat the small stuff. You can just pass. I maybe just am wired differently. Having grades there doesn't stress me out. It keeps me motivated and focused, and if I don't get honors, I don't really lose sleep.

WE are wired differently. The presence of pre-clinical grades bothers people, even if they're told a million times that it doesn't matter.

 

[Barcu]

+infinity

People who want to get the highest grades will do that regardless of the grading system. Every P/F school will have its "gunners" just like every non-P/F school does. IMHO, there are a lot more factors to prioritize over grading system when it comes to deciding what med school you're going to attend.

This was my point but more condensed. I'm not advocating for one system over another. I am saying that there are other, more important factors to look at.

WE are wired differently. The presence of pre-clinical grades bothers people, even if they're told a million times that it doesn't matter.

Ok. But I think the real issue is where do you rank this in terms of importance? Does less pre-clinical stress mean sacrificing less debt, better location, curriculum, clinical experience? Again, I'm not saying that non-P/F is better. I'm saying that in the grand scheme of factors in choosing a medical school, the grading system should be much lower on the list than most people rank it.

 

[Ellie Arroway]

Personally I am possibly getting an outside foundation scholarship that comes with a "contract of excellence" that requires either passing grades or a minimum of a 3.3 GPA each term...I would not want my funding to be tied to making high honors in almost every class. Glad my school is P/F!

 

[sliceofbread136]

Personally I am possibly getting an outside foundation scholarship that comes with a "contract of excellence" that requires either passing grades or a minimum of a 3.3 GPA each term...I would not want my funding to be tied to making high honors in almost every class. Glad my school is P/F!

Now THAT would suck. Would almost be like you are a law student...

 

[Planes2Doc]

It's a huge psychological factor. Throughout high school, I met two kinds of people. The majority cared about their grades. Then some said it's not about the grade you get in the end, but about what you learn. Generally the people who cared about their grades did better.

As pre-meds, the numbers mentality is pushed to the extreme. I doubt a medical school would accept a student with a 2.0 average even if they genuinely learned more than a 4.0 student.

Now you're thrust into medical school. Everyone is smart. And you need to memorize extreme levels of minutiae to get an A. Coming from a competitive pre-med environment to a P/F is a huge relief. I have a hard time believing people at this point care more about learning than good grades and board scores.

Sent from my HTCONE using SDN Mobile

 

[CrimsonKing]

Just going to chime in a point towards the OP: you can go to a school that is P/F AND has prestige. Why the hell would you not do so? The level stress is significantly decreased, though objective measures like Step 1 scores are still excellent. In particular, I'm discussing the University of Michigan and Baylor as top schools with P/F.

 

[Ellie Arroway]

Just going to chime in a point towards the OP: you can go to a school that is P/F AND has prestige. Why the hell would you not do so? The level stress is significantly decreased, though objective measures like Step 1 scores are still excellent. In particular, I'm discussing the University of Michigan and Baylor as top schools with P/F.

Also Yale, Pritzker, University of Washington...I was under the impression that MOST of the schools adopting the P/F system were prestigious schools.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Just going to chime in a point towards the OP: you can go to a school that is P/F AND has prestige. Why the hell would you not do so? The level stress is significantly decreased, though objective measures like Step 1 scores are still excellent. In particular, I'm discussing the University of Michigan and Baylor as top schools with P/F.

I wouldn't consider baylor true P/F. They have an internal ranking system that decides AOA status and affects your dean's letter. But that's just me.

 

[tantacles]

This was my point but more condensed. I'm not advocating for one system over another. I am saying that there are other, more important factors to look at.



Ok. But I think the real issue is where do you rank this in terms of importance? Does less pre-clinical stress mean sacrificing less debt, better location, curriculum, clinical experience? Again, I'm not saying that non-P/F is better. I'm saying that in the grand scheme of factors in choosing a medical school, the grading system should be much lower on the list than most people rank it.

And I disagree with you completely despite the fact that I don't stress out about grades.

 

[Barcu]

Just going to chime in a point towards the OP: you can go to a school that is P/F AND has prestige. Why the hell would you not do so? The level stress is significantly decreased, though objective measures like Step 1 scores are still excellent. In particular, I'm discussing the University of Michigan and Baylor as top schools with P/F.

I agree, and I would choose the prestigious P/F too.

People, I am not saying that non-P/F is better. You can argue with me all you want that P/F is better, and I will agree with you.

HOWEVER,

Can you honestly say that P/F is MORE IMPORTANT than cost of the school?

That P/F is MORE IMPORTANT than the location of the school?

That P/F is MORE IMPORTANT than the clinical rotations and sites?

That P/F is MORE IMPORTANT than the pre-clinical curriculum style (systems vs. traditional, required pbl vs. more free time)?

If all those are equal, feel free to consider the grading system. I too would go to the P/F school. However, I can't imagine two schools where all of those would be equal.

The kneejerk reaction is to go P/F. And I get it, but when considering the other factors, I believe that the grading system almost becomes irrelevant because there are so many other things to consider first.

Reading through the school specific forums, you see so many answers that are "well one is P/F while the other is not, so go to the P/F one" and they don't even mention any of the other factors. Do you really want to be stuck at a school with required PBL in a city you don't particular enjoy? But hey! it's P/F. Is that going to make you happier?

 

[Ellie Arroway]

I think when people have gotten to a point where they are tossing around P/F as a deciding factor, they are probably at a point where everything else looks pretty much equal.

 

[Barcu]

I think when people have gotten to a point where they are tossing around P/F as a deciding factor, they are probably at a point where everything else looks pretty much equal.

See. That's what I thought too, and I am ok with that. But look at the school decision threads and the treatment of the topic here on SDN. And I get to hear a lot about it going to a school that has a grading system. It was by far the most frequent topic of conversation when I talked to interviewees. I get the concern, but people didn't seem to care about much else (and I may have heard SDN mentioned or hinted at a few times...).

 

[RogueUnicorn]

That P/F is MORE IMPORTANT than the pre-clinical curriculum style (systems vs. traditional, required pbl vs. more free time)?

I hope to have time to expand on this later, but definitely

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

I hope to have time to expand on this later, but definitely

I would take a non-PBL (or any) curriculum where classes aren't mandatory over P/F any day of the week. Without a second thought.

Unless every single thing else is equal, I probably wouldn't have (and still wouldn't, after 2 years in a H/P/F curriculum) consider the grading system as my deciding factor. Cost, clinical education, and location are more important. At least to me. Especially clinical education. That's a far more important factor, IMHO, than preclinical education, which is pretty much the same across the nation.

Edit: It's clear that no one here is going to changing their mind. The people who believe P/F is greatest thing ever will defend it forever; the people who believe otherwise will push that forever. Ultimately, for those deciding what school to attend, choose whatever you want based on whatever factors are important to you -- this is entirely dependent on you. You shouldn't need to defend your decision to anyone (least of all, us anonymous individuals on SDN).

 

[NickNaylor]

Advantages of P/F from my perspective (Rogue has covered most of these points):

-No grades; you're right that grades are meaningless, so why be forced to worry about them? A lot of this comes down to personal preference. Some people might be motivated, but I know I would just be stressed out. I would have less time to remain what I would like to think is a relatively normal person and instead worry about memorizing utterly useless info for the sake of the end-of-quarter orgasm of receiving a H. The fact that grades are entirely meaningless supports a P/F over graded curriculum IMO.

-Focus on boards studying from the get-go if that's your thing. I think that's one if the main advantages. I spent significant time getting ready for boards prep during MS2 solely because grades didn't matter and I had more leeway with what I could get by not memorizing.

-Easier to use your time how you want. As Rogue mentioned, maybe you use this time to do other things that are more beneficial for your app than letter grades: research, networking, etc.. Or maybe you use that time to play BF3 (my preference). Or maybe you even use that time to just study more. I like the freedom not worrying about grades gives you, and it allows you to develop your interests more easily IMO.

I should mention that none of this is applicable at schools that are P/F and ranked. Might as well just be grades at those schools since the effect is the same. I don't think P/F is the end all be all, but other things being roughly equivalent I would pick a P/F school over a graded school 101/100 times.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717

 

[Barcu]

Advantages of P/F from my perspective (Rogue has covered most of these points):

-No grades; you're right that grades are meaningless, so why be forced to worry about them? A lot of this comes down to personal preference. Some people might be motivated, but I know I would just be stressed out. I would have less time to remain what I would like to think is a relatively normal person and instead worry about memorizing utterly useless info for the sake of the end-of-quarter orgasm of receiving a H. The fact that grades are entirely meaningless supports a P/F over graded curriculum IMO.

-Focus on boards studying from the get-go if that's your thing. I think that's one if the main advantages. I spent significant time getting ready for boards prep during MS2 solely because grades didn't matter and I had more leeway with what I could get by not memorizing.

-Easier to use your time how you want. As Rogue mentioned, maybe you use this time to do other things that are more beneficial for your app than letter grades: research, networking, etc.. Or maybe you use that time to play BF3 (my preference). Or maybe you even use that time to just study more. I like the freedom not worrying about grades gives you, and it allows you to develop your interests more easily IMO.

I should mention that none of this is applicable at schools that are P/F and ranked. Might as well just be grades at those schools since the effect is the same. I don't think P/F is the end all be all, but other things being roughly equivalent I would pick a P/F school over a graded school 101/100 times.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717

I completely agree with all of these points. I made a mistake earlier in the thread trying to defend a graded system. That wasn't the intention of the thread.

You even say with "other things being roughly equivalent..." What things are you considering before P/F? That is what I am trying to get at in this thread. My opinion is that it would be extremely rare to choose between schools so similar, that P/F would be the deciding factor (and thus, grading system should not really be an important factor).

I've listed cost, location, clinical years, and pre-clinical curriculum as more important factors. I know that not everyone will agree (I eagerly await Rogue's response about curriculum), but where does P/F lie on the spectrum for you?

After being on SDN, applying myself, and now talking to interviewees, applicants are missing the big picture when applying to schools. Yes, P/F sounds very nice and it has it's advantages. However, there are more important factors to consider, and I think those get missed frequently.

 

[GrabSlamBoot]

I completely agree with all of these points. I made a mistake earlier in the thread trying to defend a graded system. That wasn't the intention of the thread.

You even say with "other things being roughly equivalent..." What things are you considering before P/F? That is what I am trying to get at in this thread. My opinion is that it would be extremely rare to choose between schools so similar, that P/F would be the deciding factor (and thus, grading system should not really be an important factor).

I've listed cost, location, clinical years, and pre-clinical curriculum as more important factors. I know that not everyone will agree (I eagerly await Rogue's response about curriculum), but where does P/F lie on the spectrum for you?

After being on SDN, applying myself, and now talking to interviewees, applicants are missing the big picture when applying to schools. Yes, P/F sounds very nice and it has it's advantages. However, there are more important factors to consider, and I think those get missed frequently.

What's the big deal? If an applicant puts a P/F curriculum high on their list then so be it. Whatever floats their boat.

 

[MusicJunkie]

GREAT blog post on the benefits of pass/fail:

http://anastomosed.wordpress.com/2012/12/01/preclinical-passfail/#more-630.

The blog addresses the positive psychological effects of pass/fail, positive effect on work/life balance, little impact on course performance, no impact on USMLE scores, etc etc (refer to post).

"A comprehensive review of the literature indicates that pass/fail grading improves medical student well-being without compromising academic outcomes. Within the last two decades, when the national playing field changed the most, these studies include

1. A study of seven medical schools with P/F compared to 3+ interval grading in 2007
2. University of Michigan changing its second year from H/HP/P/F to P/F for the second year in 2005
3. Mayo Medical School changing from 5-interval to P/marginal P/F for first year only.
4. University of Virginia changing from 5-interval to P/F for both preclinical years.
5. Stanford, which long has had P/F, surveying internship directors about how Stanford graduates fared against graduates of schools with more discriminating grading.
6. University of Michigan changing its first year to P/F in 1992."

The post also has links to the referenced studies.


//EDIT: Barcu, I get your point. Other things can, and quite possibly should, be prioritized before P/F.

 

[alpinism]

I agree, and I would choose the prestigious P/F too.

People, I am not saying that non-P/F is better. You can argue with me all you want that P/F is better, and I will agree with you.

HOWEVER,

Can you honestly say that P/F is MORE IMPORTANT than cost of the school?

No. But most students aren't choosing between a full or half tuition scholarship at a graded school vs. a full cost P/F school. For most applicants the cost difference between schools is only a few thousand dollars a year (prob 5-10K). In all honestly it might be worth it to go to a P/F school for 5K more per year...

That P/F is MORE IMPORTANT than the location of the school?

Depends on the person. If a SO or close family is involved then location would trump almost everything. But if you're choosing between 2 schools in similar locations far from home (ie you're from cali and are choosing between schools in Philly or NYC) then I'd go with the P/F school.

That P/F is MORE IMPORTANT than the clinical rotations and sites?

Absolutely Not.

That P/F is MORE IMPORTANT than the pre-clinical curriculum style (systems vs. traditional, required pbl vs. more free time)?

Again it depends on the person. Most schools have a mix of both PBL and lecture. Also, you can't really tell which system you like better till you've experienced them both firsthand. For mandatory lecture attendance schools, I'd definitely agree that P/F would be less important. But, if going to a P/F school means having to attend a few extra PBL sessions a month, then I'd go with the P/F school here as well.

If all those are equal, feel free to consider the grading system. I too would go to the P/F school. However, I can't imagine two schools where all of those would be equal.

The kneejerk reaction is to go P/F. And I get it, but when considering the other factors, I believe that the grading system almost becomes irrelevant because there are so many other things to consider first.

Reading through the school specific forums, you see so many answers that are "well one is P/F while the other is not, so go to the P/F one" and they don't even mention any of the other factors. Do you really want to be stuck at a school with required PBL in a city you don't particular enjoy? But hey! it's P/F. Is that going to make you happier?

See above.

 

[I like meowmix]

P/F is HUGE. It makes a big, big difference in terms of how I study and how I worry. I would strongly recommend P/F

 

[Barcu]

What's the big deal? If an applicant puts a P/F curriculum high on their list then so be it. Whatever floats their boat.

I have said that everyone is welcome to consider whatever factors they like. It's their choice. But it is my opinion that applicants put too much weight on the first two years of their med school experience when choosing schools, and the grading system is the most glaring example of that.

I say this as someone who has been on SDN for a while, applied myself, and now have dealt with interviewees for a couple years.

 

[NickNaylor]

I completely agree with all of these points. I made a mistake earlier in the thread trying to defend a graded system. That wasn't the intention of the thread.

You even say with "other things being roughly equivalent..." What things are you considering before P/F? That is what I am trying to get at in this thread. My opinion is that it would be extremely rare to choose between schools so similar, that P/F would be the deciding factor (and thus, grading system should not really be an important factor).

I've listed cost, location, clinical years, and pre-clinical curriculum as more important factors. I know that not everyone will agree (I eagerly await Rogue's response about curriculum), but where does P/F lie on the spectrum for you?

After being on SDN, applying myself, and now talking to interviewees, applicants are missing the big picture when applying to schools. Yes, P/F sounds very nice and it has it's advantages. However, there are more important factors to consider, and I think those get missed frequently.

I would actually say that only cost and curriculum type (ie, PBL vs. traditional) would be more important than grading in my book. Things like quality of clinical training is obviously important but essentially impossible to ascertain as a premed. In terms of things within the applicant's control, the grading system ranks pretty highly on my list, but that's just me, and I recognize that everyone has different priorities.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I hope to have time to expand on this later, but definitely

I would take a non-PBL (or any) curriculum where classes aren't mandatory over P/F any day of the week. Without a second thought.

Unless every single thing else is equal, I probably wouldn't have (and still wouldn't, after 2 years in a H/P/F curriculum) consider the grading system as my deciding factor. Cost, clinical education, and location are more important. At least to me. Especially clinical education. That's a far more important factor, IMHO, than preclinical education, which is pretty much the same across the nation.

So to discuss this further, IMO curriculum, insofar as mode of delivery of information is concerned, is incredibly overblown. I absolutely detest PBL, but I guarantee you I would have learned what I had to in a 100% PBL curriculum, about as well as I did in a school that's mostly lecture-focused. So much of the responsibility for learning falls on the individual student anyway, and as far as I'm concerned the school itself is more or less an auxiliary source of information.

It's been brought up before, but re: clinical education, I think it's really impossible to know as a pre-med, and maybe even as a med student, what the "quality" of the rotations are like.

Edit: It's clear that no one here is going to changing their mind. The people who believe P/F is greatest thing ever will defend it forever; the people who believe otherwise will push that forever. Ultimately, for those deciding what school to attend, choose whatever you want based on whatever factors are important to you -- this is entirely dependent on you. You shouldn't need to defend your decision to anyone (least of all, us anonymous individuals on SDN).

What's the big deal? If an applicant puts a P/F curriculum high on their list then so be it. Whatever floats their boat.

We're discussing this not necessary to convince each other but to help guide the pre-meds in the formation of their own priorities

 

[Barcu]

I would actually say that only cost and curriculum type (ie, PBL vs. traditional) would be more important than grading in my book. Things like quality of clinical training is obviously important but essentially impossible to ascertain as a premed. In terms of things within the applicant's control, the grading system ranks pretty highly on my list, but that's just me, and I recognize that everyone has different priorities.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717

So to discuss this further, IMO curriculum, insofar as mode of delivery of information is concerned, is incredibly overblown. I absolutely detest PBL, but I guarantee you I would have learned what I had to in a 100% PBL curriculum, about as well as I did in a school that's mostly lecture-focused. So much of the responsibility for learning falls on the individual student anyway, and as far as I'm concerned the school itself is more or less an auxiliary source of information.

It's been brought up before, but re: clinical education, I think it's really impossible to know as a pre-med, and maybe even as a med student, what the "quality" of the rotations are like.

Thanks for the perspectives. In terms of clinical education, it is a bit tough, and I think it takes some extra work on your part as an applicant to track down 3rd and 4th years (and maybe even get lucky and find some residents) to talk to. While I can't say that my current school is the "best" of the schools I was accepted to in regards to clinical experience, I heard the same positive things over and over again compared to my other schools. So I weighed that pretty heavily. Maybe I'm wrong.

We're discussing this not necessary to convince each other but to help guide the pre-meds in the formation of their own priorities

This is the point of this thread. It wasn't to be contradictory. It was to discuss a topic that seemed to be oversimplified (in my opinion).

The bottom line is that you have to do your homework. Find out what's important to you and really do your best to find the information you need to make a decision.