Preceptors: What do you dislike about your students?

[rxlea]

since there is a thread about annoying things professors do, I thought it might be helpful for us students to hear the most annoying things other students do.that way, we can refrain from doing them and learn from others' mistakes! So, please, can you preceptors share with us the annoying traits/behaviors of rotation students? Thanks in advance!


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[xiphoid2010]

since there is a thread about annoying things professors do, I thought it might be helpful for us students to hear the most annoying things other students do.that way, we can refrain from doing them and learn from others' mistakes! So, please, can you preceptors share with us the annoying traits/behaviors of rotation students? Thanks in advance!

My 2 biggest peeves:
(1) laziness
(2) incompetence

#1 Being late 5-10 minutes I can live with, but being half-assed on doing rotation activities/assigments really bothers me.
#2 at least know the bare minimum (come to ambulatory care/diabetes rotation not knowing metformin contra-indication. I wanted flunk her on the spot so bad...)

 

[UES Girl]

My 2 biggest peeves:
(1) laziness
(2) incompetence

#1 Being late 5-10 minutes I can live with, but being half-assed on doing rotation activities/assigments really bothers me.
#2 at least know the bare minimum (come to ambulatory care/diabetes rotation not knowing metformin contra-indication. I wanted flunk her on the spot so bad...)

Lazyness is easy to say but define that more efficietly. We had a talk what to expect on acute care rotations today and our schedule and for some of them you were supposed to be there at 7 to preround and you could end up leaving around 10 pm. I bet if a student tried to leave early that could be constituted as lazyness but to me these kind of hours are straight out of science fiction novel. We aren't med students, how can you possibly expect a student to work and more importantly be productive 5-6 days a week for 12-15 hours ?

 

[DelawareStudent]

Lazyness is easy to say but define that more efficietly. We had a talk what to expect on acute care rotations today and our schedule and for some of them you were supposed to be there at 7 to preround and you could end up leaving around 10 pm. I bet if a student tried to leave early that could be constituted as lazyness but to me these kind of hours are straight out of science fiction novel. We aren't med students, how can you possibly expect a student to work and more importantly be productive 5-6 days a week for 12-15 hours ?

Shrug...you can either do it or do something to change it. Unfortunately, you don't get to avoid the hard parts of jobs just because you don't agree with them.

Inability to maintain strong work ethics in the face of adversity is a symptom of laziness to me.

 

[UES Girl]

Shrug...you can either do it or do something to change it. Unfortunately, you don't get to avoid the hard parts of jobs just because you don't agree with them.

Inability to maintain strong work ethics in the face of adversity is a symptom of laziness to me.

Are you effing kidding me ? A lecture by some pre-pharm ? Mods, I'm willing to go on a post hold for this, or an infraction even - there is a little red button where you can report this post, but I will not tolerate this kind of *****ic lecturing from individuals who know **** about f*ck.

There are labor laws in place in this country for a reason and slavery was abolished in what year if I remember correctly ? Just cuz schools think it's ok to utilize utilize students as a slave work force for 12-15 hour work days and I don't agree with it while voicing my concerns, doesn't make me lazy.

If I was lazy, I'd be in your position right now.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Interesting how medical student are expected to work 12+ hours all the time, and pharmacy students moan when clock tick past 8 hours on just a few days.

 

[KUMoose]

While I'm not a preceptor (hello floater), I have taught before and throw in things I've come across in stores I work (observing other pharmacists and their preceptees)

• Being consistently unprepared
• Being disrespectful of the preceptor, site or role (i.e. clinical focused students bagging on retail)
• Wasting time (some doodling is helpful, farting away 2+ hours on facebook or sexting just go away) I wish the sexting was from when I taught, but it wasn't one girl was sexting her whatever on site. Seriously... I mean I'm not a prudish saint, but come on.
• Willful ignorance/unwillingness to learn
• Zero self motivation

(2) incompetence

#1 Being late 5-10 minutes I can live with, but being half-assed on doing rotation activities/assigments really bothers me.
#2 at least know the bare minimum (come to ambulatory care/diabetes rotation not knowing metformin contra-indication. I wanted flunk her on the spot so bad...)

Incompetence is hard, it's not that I don't think there should be a minimum bar, but sometimes what you think should be bare minimum others may not. In essence it's easy to punish someone else for your unmet expectations.

My immediate thought on this was how did you try and elicit the information Xiphoid? Did you try and vary your way of eliciting information? I ask this because I think the one area where preceptors suffer the biggest disadvantage is education theory. Not everyone responds to say a direct challenge (think flash card theory), ask a question get a response. Now I know next to nothing about Xiph, but right or wrong I know that when pressured into a response girls/women are more likely to withdraw, even if they know the right answer.

The basic point is don't assume your bare minimum is the bare minimum, unless it's explicitly part of the syllabus and don't assume that an inability to generate/respond with the correct answer is automatically not knowing the answer. This isn't to attack Xiphoid or make excuses (knowing my luck the student will actually be a bone-headed idiot), but I've seen far too many preceptors use "their" method to teach, whether it works or not.

 

[Its Z]

Dont bs me. i can see right through it.
Dont waste my time. Im busier than you.
Be prepared to work and learn.
Dont expect me to let you leave early.
Volunteer to do more than expected.

 

[xiphoid2010]

I don't expect student to know how to think clinically, that's what we as preceptors teach. But I do expect basic competency and knowledge level that makes teaching even possible. E.g how can you not know contra-indication for metformin, or ACEI cause hyperkalemia by the last year of pharmacy school?

There re good students that hit the ground running, and then there are these ones that need divine intervention.

 

[Its Z]

Oh ...dont read newspaper in my dept ....hospital. Do that in your own time in your bathroom.

 

[KARM12]

Agree 100% with not being disrespectful to the site or practice area. Some students come in with such a bad attitude. I get everyone does not want to be a retail pharmacist or a clinical pharmacist... It goes both ways. There is the "I don't care about retail because I want to do a residency" or the "I already have a job at CVS, so I don't care about hospital." There are a lot of things you can learn.

I always ended up putting order away on my retail rotation at Walgreens. It was boring and I didn't enjoy it, but I used the time to learn the brand/generics, common doses, etc. Then I would quiz myself on counseling points and side effects. Made studying for the NAPLEX much easier...

 

[KARM12]

I don't expect student to know how to think clinically, that's what we as preceptors teach. But I do expect basic competency and knowledge level that makes teaching even possible. E.g how can you not know contra-indication for metformin, or ACEI cause hyperkalemia by the last year of pharmacy school?

There re good students that hit the ground running, and then there are these ones that need divine intervention.

I'm ok with them not knowing certain stuff when they come to me...that is fine. I do expect them to look it up and when I ask them about it the next week...remember it.

 

[DelawareStudent]

Are you effing kidding me ? A lecture by some pre-pharm ? Mods, I'm willing to go on a post hold for this, or an infraction even - there is a little red button where you can report this post, but I will not tolerate this kind of *****ic lecturing from individuals who know **** about f*ck.

That's cute. Back when you still couldn't reach the cookie jar on the counter, I was stuck overseas in desert like environments working 15-16 hours a day, 7 days a week so that you can safely attend your pharmacy school.

Pre-pharm, seriously? To so blatantly assume your superiority over me not only shows how childish you are but is likely indicative of the fact that you try to justify all of your lazy behavior by externalizing it onto other people.

In your response, you characterize exactly what is wrong with many students in general, thinking that at 24 years of age you have all the tools you need and more to conquer the world, and therefore your opinions must be the defacto truth.

Finally, I am no expert on rotations during pharmacy school, and I don't claim to be. However, I am more than qualified to comment on your chief complaint of feeling like you are being forced to do something you don't like or necessarily agree with.

God Bless all you preceptors out there, you must either be either extremely tolerant, or have a high capacity for pain.

 

[owlegrad]

OK guys, don't make this personal. Play nice.

 

[UES Girl]

That's cute. Back when you still couldn't reach the cookie jar on the counter, I was stuck overseas in desert like environments working 15-16 hours a day, 7 days a week so that you can safely attend your pharmacy school.

Pre-pharm, seriously? To so blatantly assume your superiority over me not only shows how childish you are but is likely indicative of the fact that you try to justify all of your lazy behavior by externalizing it onto other people.

In your response, you characterize exactly what is wrong with many students in general, thinking that at 24 years of age you have all the tools you need and more to conquer the world, and therefore your opinions must be the defacto truth.

Finally, I am no expert on rotations during pharmacy school, and I don't claim to be. However, I am more than qualified to comment on your chief complaint of feeling like you are being forced to do something you don't like or necessarily agree with.

God Bless all you preceptors out there, you must either be either extremely tolerant, or have a high capacity for pain.

First of all, don't feed me this "so you can safely attend your pharmacy school " bull****, for all you know I am an anti-war pacifist who doesn't believe in terrorism and our need to be overseas. Also, were you also getting paid for those 14-15 hours ? Or were you paying 30 + k per year to work those hours ? See the ridiculousness of your argument, so now stfu.

 

[spacecowgirl]

Agree 100% with not being disrespectful to the site or practice area. Some students come in with such a bad attitude. I get everyone does not want to be a retail pharmacist or a clinical pharmacist... It goes both ways. There is the "I don't care about retail because I want to do a residency" or the "I already have a job at CVS, so I don't care about hospital." There are a lot of things you can learn.

I always ended up putting order away on my retail rotation at Walgreens. It was boring and I didn't enjoy it, but I used the time to learn the brand/generics, common doses, etc. Then I would quiz myself on counseling points and side effects. Made studying for the NAPLEX much easier...

Or the general "I'm paying to be here, I should only be doing what I want" attitude.

 

[DelawareStudent]

Wow, it turned into "Real Housewives of SDN" pretty fast there....

Sorry for hijacking your thread folks.....

 

[rxlea]

Hey!

this isn't about superiority at all or how many hours someone spent in the desert. this thread is supposed to be about things that preceptors see in students that could be improved.



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[UES Girl]

Hey!

this isn't about superiority at all or how many hours someone spent in the desert. this thread is supposed to be about things that preceptors see in students that could be improved.



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This is a very good idea for a thread - I actually wanted to start one myself, it just has a potential to get ugly if things go downhill.


When are you rotations ? Mine are in two weeks and a half weeks. I start on neurosurgery and am very excited, because I heard it's the best most fun service for our site and you get out no later than 5-6 pm even if you have to come in hellishly early. Plus you see a lot of anticonvulsants, pain management and steroids and I like all of those topics.

 

[rxlea]

This is a very good idea for a thread - I actually wanted to start one myself, it just has a potential to get ugly if things go downhill.


When are you rotations ? Mine are in two weeks and a half weeks. I start on neurosurgery and am very excited, because I heard it's the best most fun service for our site and you get out no later than 5-6 pm even if you have to come in hellishly early. Plus you see a lot of anticonvulsants, pain management and steroids and I like all of those topics.

I had one IPPE already at an independent pharmacy in a rural location. Mostly counseled patients and did some compounding, dr calls, patient cases. Saw a lot of SSRIs, BB, ACEI, abx, OC, opioids...usual stuff. This summer I have my second IPPE at a rural critical access hospital with 24 beds (I think). IHS patients mostly. Should be super cool. My APPEs start next year at the end of third year. I see the students who are rotating at UMC - those doing EM, ICU, surgery seemed to be the most stressed and go on rounds hella early and stay late. I heard neuro is a really cool rotation, though. I bet you're totally going to love it.

 

[KARM12]

Or the general "I'm paying to be here, I should only be doing what I want" attitude.

To which I respond..."well I'm not seeing any of that 40k"

 

[rxlea]

To which I respond..."well I'm not seeing any of that 40k"

I am SO stealing that if/when I become a preceptor

 

[Ackj]

To which I respond..."well I'm not seeing any of that 40k"

Do you get any benefit at all? I know some preceptors are faculty, so they get paid, some are alumni, so they're doing it as a favor. I think preceptors get access to all our online databases and resources and an annual banquet, but I'm not really sure. I can't see taking all the time out of my schedule to do it, to be perfectly honest. Exception of course being a busy retail store that could use a set of hands. Seems too noble.

 

[UES Girl]

I am SO stealing that if/when I become a preceptor

would that be true though technically unless you are a volunteer preceptor ? All ours are salaried faculty, so I know they are seeing my 30 +k k in some form or another.

 

[njac]

I'm struggling with a combination of lack of knowledge plus minimal initiative.

I can't teach you 3 years of pharmacy school in 6 weeks. For the love of god know how to interpret a CBC and chem7 before you come to me.

 

[njac]

i'm ok with them not knowing certain stuff when they come to me...that is fine. i do expect them to look it up and when i ask them about it the next week...remember it.

this.

 

[KARM12]

yo

 

[KARM12]

Do you get any benefit at all? I know some preceptors are faculty, so they get paid, some are alumni, so they're doing it as a favor. I think preceptors get access to all our online databases and resources and an annual banquet, but I'm not really sure. I can't see taking all the time out of my schedule to do it, to be perfectly honest. Exception of course being a busy retail store that could use a set of hands. Seems too noble.

The schools that do pay, I'll never see any of it. It all goes to the department, not me. Only perk I get is access to their online library resources.

 

[Ackj]

The schools that do pay, I'll never see any of it. It all goes to the department, not me. Only perk I get is access to their online library resources.

So why go through the trouble? No doubt your employer already offers you the necessary online resources for your duties, so that perk doesn't sound that great.

My school does not pay, and I have no idea how we have so many preceptors and sites.

 

[Its Z]

We dont charge nor do we get paid. We do it because its the right thing.
I am now seeing the positives of hypercompetitive pharmacy job market. I no longer have to try hard to hire mediocre unqualified lazy ass unmotivated pharmacists. The cream rises to the top and now we can pick and choose better prepared and self motivated pharmacists. No shortage of highly trained pgy1s and pgy2s flooding our classified with CVs.

 

[njac]

So why go through the trouble? No doubt your employer already offers you the necessary online resources for your duties, so that perk doesn't sound that great.

nope. my community hospital only has micromedex.

proper pub med access is via our precepting agreement.

 

[PumpkinSmasher]

nope. my community hospital only has micromedex.

proper pub med access is via our precepting agreement.

Same for my hospital.

 

[xiphoid2010]

nope. My community hospital only has micromedex.

Proper pub med access is via our precepting agreement.

+ 2

 

[xtsukiyox]

Interesting how medical student are expected to work 12+ hours all the time, and pharmacy students moan when clock tick past 8 hours on just a few days.

Obviously, the clock ticking past 8 hours on a few days is not the same as expecting pre-rounding at 7am & end at 10pm. If I wanted to have a medical student's schedule, I would be a medical student.


PS, I, of course, have no experience to say which is the more realistic estimation of the time spent in rotation. Also, this thread is very helpful.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Don't eat all of the food the drug rep brought in.

Don't say idiotic crap out loud when you are following me around in the public areas of the hospital/wherever.

Other than that, if you want to learn, fine, if not, fine. Making a kid learn something he/she has no interest in after he/she has found themselves in their final bits of school is a waste of my time and their time. But ueo to the insistence than everyone has to be "well rounded" we have kids doing idiotic things like hanging out at a mail order pharmacies stuffing pills in boxes for 12 hours at a time for the sake of "education." And if they complain, they get yelled at or dismissed from the rotation. It's stupid.

Most of the people on this forum (and the people in academia in general) are narcissistic douches so most of the responses don't surprise me. I don't think that I am important enough to demand your undying respect and subservience because I'm me. Though I'll grade you as you perform.

 

[BrightLight]

As a preceptor, I loathe it when another student hits on my attractive colleagues, especially those I plan to or have been going after already.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

As a preceptor, I loathe it when another student hits on my attractive colleagues, especially those I plan to or have been going after already.

Awesome!

 

[UES Girl]

Obviously, the clock ticking past 8 hours on a few days is not the same as expecting pre-rounding at 7am & end at 10pm. If I wanted to have a medical student's schedule, I would be a medical student.


PS, I, of course, have no experience to say which is the more realistic estimation of the time spent in rotation. Also, this thread is very helpful.

I'm guessing this is school dependent, or site dependent since some of the things were told are handled differently elsewhere.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Obviously, the clock ticking past 8 hours on a few days is not the same as expecting pre-rounding at 7am & end at 10pm. If I wanted to have a medical student's schedule, I would be a medical student.

Correct me if wrong here, the goal of 4th year rotations and why students are required to do different settings, is so they get to learn how things are done in a real world setting.

So if your preceptor is a pharmacist at a 12 hr CVS then you get to learn how it is like to do that. If you are on an ICU rotation, then you need to be in at 6AM to round with your preceptor. You follow on the preceptor's schedule, not the other way around.

If you don't like that work schedule then by all means don't become a CVS or ICU pharmacist after. But for that short 1 month, student should understand it is apart of their require education and live with it. Nobody is asking you to do 12+ hr rotations for 2 years and 3-7 years of residency/fellowship like med students.

 

[xiphoid2010]

They aren't short 4 weeks rotations first of all, they are 6 weeks and the only reason I brought it up is because I constantly see preceptors compaining about students being lazy and I just can't wrap my mind about preceptors complaining about students being lazy when I hardly see how one can be lazy while working 15 hours a day.

OMG, it's 6 weeks, alert the police!

None of us were exempt from rotations, some harder than others. To get the degree, we all have to pay the dues.

 

[Ackj]

So if your preceptor is a pharmacist at a 12 hr CVS then you get to learn how it is like to do that. If you are on an ICU rotation, then you need to be in at 6AM to round with your preceptor. You follow on the preceptor's schedule, not the other way around.

I would actually prefer that. Unless you work something out with your preceptor, you're supposed to be at the site M-F. Working 3 x 12hr, or however your preceptor does it, would be a good experience. I'd also like to try out 7 on/7 off, just to see what it's like before I end up committing to a job like that and finding out that I hate it.

 

[KUMoose]

Not so fast Z, I know some preceptors get paid (I've seen the checks), consequently that's their sole reason for precepting. One of my preceptors made as much money from being a preceptor as being a pharmacist. She was nice though, bought me lunch the last day at the cafeteria.

Is that unique? I don't know, I haven't discussed it with the folks here, frankly I don't care. However there are some markets where money exchanges hands and yes that influenced how much face-time I should get as a student.

 

[spacecowgirl]

One of my preceptors made as much money from being a preceptor as being a pharmacist. She was nice though, bought me lunch the last day at the cafeteria.

Is that unique?

Um yeah. I have never heard of such a thing. Not that I don't believe you but I sure haven't heard anything like that before.

For the record, stipends are about $100/week, none of which I personally see. Suffice to say I make more than that in my job.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Um yeah. I have never heard of such a thing. Not that I don't believe you but I sure haven't heard anything like that before.

For the record, stipends are about $100/week, none of which I personally see. Suffice to say I make more than that in my job.

I that I'm not getting any $$$ to precept all my magical unicorn colts.

 

[UES Girl]

OMG, it's 6 weeks, alert the police!

None of us were exempt from rotations, some harder than others. To get the degree, we all have to pay the dues.

Sorry, was this the smart ass preceptor thread or did I get confused ?

Or did you miss the portion where I shredded the rest of your BS points to shreds about "working as hard as your preceptor to get an adequate learning experience".

I even deleted that post anyway, because I figured it was pointless to waste my time on someone who doesn't seem to want to contribute to discussion in the positive and productive manner but rather to whine about students.

 

[KARM12]

So why go through the trouble? No doubt your employer already offers you the necessary online resources for your duties, so that perk doesn't sound that great.

My school does not pay, and I have no idea how we have so many preceptors and sites.

Journal subscription, UptoDate...all very expensive for an institution... We only have access in our hospital's library, not from every computer. These pharmacy schools have way better journal access than my hospital every will. In my role, it is very useful.

I precept because I enjoy it...it is the random bad student every once in a while that ruins your day. If every pharmacist has the "why go through the trouble?" there wouldn't be enough rotation sites.

 

[PharmDstudent]

Techs, interns, students, managers, cashiers, etc. who argue with me. I have reasons for the insanity, and if you argue with me, then you waste my time and **** me off.

I am the license holder. You are the license follower.

 

[SHC1984]

Correct me if wrong here, the goal of 4th year rotations and why students are required to do different settings, is so they get to learn how things are done in a real world setting.

So if your preceptor is a pharmacist at a 12 hr CVS then you get to learn how it is like to do that. If you are on an ICU rotation, then you need to be in at 6AM to round with your preceptor. You follow on the preceptor's schedule, not the other way around.

If you don't like that work schedule then by all means don't become a CVS or ICU pharmacist after. But for that short 1 month, student should understand it is apart of their require education and live with it. Nobody is asking you to do 12+ hr rotations for 2 years and 3-7 years of residency/fellowship like med students.

As long as I am only working 40 hours or less a week I do not care when I go in or leave. Working 12 hr days means I only work 3 days a week. Works for me.

 

[SHC1984]

I am guessing not knowing the major guidelines are a major pet peeve of preceptors right? I am sure if the preceptor ask you a question about therapy and it's in the guidelines then you are expected to know it right?

 

[xiphoid2010]

I even deleted that post anyway, because I figured it was pointless to waste my time on someone who doesn't seem to want to contribute to discussion in the positive and productive manner but rather to whine about students.

You tried to make excuses for being lazy on rotations, I called you on out it.

This thread asks what kind of student behaviors that gets them on our our bad side. Now instead of listen and learn, you get all defensive, that's what's not productive.